Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: brady on February 04, 2003, 03:25:59 AM
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Much debate has been going on lately with regard to PAC plane set's and Just what Japanese planes should be added. I beleave with Just two new planes( perhaps 3) and Two Varents, we could do much for the Japanese side and still be able to squease in anothe US ride,not that I think we nead another New US ride but their are many who want this so It may be ineavatble. Personaly I would rather see some a few Early War US Varients than say a P39 but one never know what's coming.:) So hear is the solution imo to the Japanese issue, trying to keep it as simple as possable and theirfore doable:
We realy Nead an A6M3 for our Solomns era setings in the CT, the added firpower of the Type 99MK II cannon with 100 rpg will realy help balance things out's air to air(as much as we could hope for), also it's improved High spead handeling traits will help the Japanese players manuaver at spead a bit better.
The Oscars would be nice to"flesh out" the plane set but their extreamly light aramement of only two 12.7mm Ho-103 mg's will make them Hanger Quees I think.
From a players prespective, looking at the plane list in the Virtual hanger the following would be most helpfull for a 42/43 slot/New Gunine Japanese plane set.
Ki 45, While I would personaly prefer to see the Ki 102, the Ki 45 would add much in the way of firpower to the Japanese plane set's for the CBI and SWPA in late 42 and 43.
Ki-61-1b,The Tony saw service entry along the North coast of New Gunnie in early 43, a good model to be included would be the one with the 20mm MG 151's cannons, as apposed to the 4 12.7mm MG's This early model of the Tony would make for a Very Nice Early War Japanese Army Fighter, much more servicable for the average player than the Oscar. With this adation we could get away from using the later model Tony we curently have and thusly avoid having to place out of place US machines in our Early war Slot set up's in the CT.
H8K, This would add so much I cant even begine to cover it's coolness.
I mentioned the A6M3 above.
D4Y2, small detchaments of the D4Y2 begaine to be placed on Japanese Cariers in the Autom of 42. This would Give the Japanese side a very Usefull Tool, the fastest Carier born Dive Bomber Of WW2 and a truly Fantastic airplane, it would add much to their arsenal.
Realy If we got the A6M3, the D4Y2, the early Tony and a Ki 45, all would well and good for the early Pac Plane set balance wise, while I like the Oscar it would not help anything in terms of plane set balance and would be little used, those 4 planes would all see much use.
For the Later War Perioud:
I would Skip the Jake, It was in all respect's inferiour to the George, and the Japanese Navy basicaly canceled it in Favore of the George, they are also prety much in the same time frame.
Obviously a Ki 84 is a must.
If we get a later model D4Y2, that could bridge the gap between late war and early war this would be great, since this plane is primarly a Ground/ship atack weapon using a later model would not be a big issue and it would kill two birds with one stone.
A Grace would be imo the Best all around late war Japanese Strike platform to hope for, great speead, Handeling aramamnt and a usefull bombload make this plane the only logical choice.
A Ki 102 would be nice as well.
Realist whishfull thinking would reduce this list to the Ki 84, and the Grace, for late war.
Over all best Choice for :
1 Japanese plane added: Ki 84 (politics it is wanted bad)
2 Japanese Planes added: Ki 84, A6M3
3 Japanese Planes added: Ki 84,A6M3,D4Y2
4 Japanese Planes added:ki 84, A6M3,D4Y2,Ki 61-1b
I cant even begin to hope for more than that in the next Vershion.
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A note on Bombers, adding any Japanes bombers(other than a H8K), presently without adding the approparate Allied equilvent bombers for the same time perioud, would do more harm than good. Presently a crazy parity existes in the Bomber relm for PAC set up's. Allied Bombers are very tough and fast and extreamly well armed since they are mostly much later models than what the A6M2 would of seen in theater at this tme. For the Japanese Peggy the same is true in part, it is faster than most allied fighters that would be time approparate for the Slot and New Gunnie(except the F4U-1), and has a decent defensive aramament, comperable in the rear quarter to that wich the Betty could muster. The Peggy is prety easy to kill if you get in gun range with US 50cal weapons, as was the Betty, granted it is not the torch the Betty was it is still easy to kill. Realy the Allies have it much better in the I want to kill that Buff Catagory, presently, than the Japanese do.
So in Short I presently want no New Buff's for Japan as their production time would sap time away from the more presing issues, of the Magic 4:
A6M3,Ki 84, Ki61-1b,D4Y2....and the Ki 45 I know I said 4 but I have a big apatite:)
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Brady!
I wonder how long it takes to bring an AH 1.11 aircraft model up to AH2 specs?
It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that all of the artists' time between now and October could be spent with this task - leaving AH2 to debut with the current planeset only. I think its possible that any new Japanese planes might not arrive until 1.13, which could be more than a year away.
What a dark speculation...I hope its not true. But I have to consider, if Pyro thought these planes were important enough to be in the game, then that's where they'd be. He's had to make to some tough calls WRT plane selection. I don't envy his position at all.
What I would like to see, instead of lists of Japanese planes the players would like to see, is the list of Japanese planes Pyro is planning to add, and when.
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No, NO, NO! Brady! You have not been listening to our pleas!
Ki-61-1-Ko (Ki-61-1a) = 7.7mm machine guns (Type 89) X 2, 12.7mm machine guns (Ho-103) X 2
Ki-61-1-Otsu (Ki-61-1b) = 12.7mm machine guns (Ho-103) X 4
Ki-61-1-Hei (Ki-61-1c) = 20mm cannons (MG 151) X 2, 12.7mm machine guns (Ho-103) X 2
Ki-61-1-Tei (Ki-61-1d) = 20mm cannons (Ho-5) X 2, 12.7mm machine guns (Ho-103) X 2
just by the variations of the armament... fuel tanks also changes...
Ki-61-1-Otsu (Ki-61-1b) does not carry 20mm cannons, but the Ki-61-1-Hei (Ki-61-1c) has the German 20mm, the Ki-61-1-Tei (Ki-61-1d) has the Japanese 20mm.
While the Ki-61-1-KAI is another name for the Ki-61-1-Tei, they are one and the same! Can you see why the term "Ki-61-1-KAIc" is confusing?
For details refer to:
Petition to change the name of the Hien on AH (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47106)
Info on the Ki-61 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47692)
which reminds me... I need to punt!
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Oboe, I dont even want to begin to think about not geting any new planes in the Next release:), if it is that long I dont want to know, I also dont want to know what I am geting for Christmass:)
FDutchmn, I want the earlest Model of the Tony with a 20mm cannon on it, my sources indicate that No Tony was made with a Ho-5 untill1944, while I much prefer the Japanese 20mm to the German 20mm MG 151, the MG 151 was available much earler, my source indicates that it was available about the same time as the Four 12.7mm Ho 103 was. At any rate this is the plane(the Early Tony, either with 4 12.7mm MG's or two and the 20mm MG 151 cannons) That I would like to see added instead of the Oscar, whatever it is realy called as you say is somewhat confusing.:)
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Originally posted by brady
FDutchmn, I want the earlest Model of the Tony with a 20mm cannon on it, my sources indicate that No Tony was made with a Ho-5 untill1944, while I much prefer the Japanese 20mm to the German 20mm MG 151, the MG 151 was available much earler, my source indicates that it was available about the same time as the Four 12.7mm Ho 103 was. At any rate this is the plane(the Early Tony, either with 4 12.7mm MG's or two and the 20mm MG 151 cannons) That I would like to see added instead of the Oscar, whatever it is realy called as you say is somewhat confusing.:)
I know, I know, I know!
Our friends like Mitsu and Sekiji agree that the Ki-61-I-Hei, the c variant, is probably the best performing Ki-61! The one with the German 20mm.
ahhhhh... just on ya case for the naming
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CC, It took me a long to comprehend the intrices of Japanes aircraft names, it still hurts my head a bit, but I am geting most it down now:)
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I think the AH buff gun model may make the Betty rather more defensable here than it was IRL.
The Solomon islands campaign, for weeks / months on end, was carried on the Japanese side, by the G4M. It's drawbacks, we all know. But a Solomons campaign without a proper Japanese medium bomber just doesn't seem right to me. And if it's only really used in scenarios, well, it would hardly be the only such a/c in the game.
I'd add it as #2 on the list, after the Ki84.
Vladd
(Hoping vainly that this discussion isn't totally academic ;) )
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Ok ...ok ... I'm shocked and amazed. Dammit.
(Teaches me to not read the whole bloody BB foist) :eek:
Originally posted by brady
Much debate has been going on lately with regard to PAC plane set's and Just what Japanese planes should be added. I beleave with Just two new planes( perhaps 3) and Two Varents, we could do much for the Japanese side and still be able to squease in anothe US ride,not that I think we nead another New US ride but their are many who want this so It may be ineavatble. Personaly I would rather see some a few Early War US Varients than say a P39 but one never know what's coming.:) So hear is the solution imo to the Japanese issue, trying to keep it as simple as possable and theirfore doable:
We realy Nead an A6M3 for our Solomns era setings in the CT, the added firpower of the Type 99MK II cannon with 100 rpg will realy help balance things out's air to air(as much as we could hope for), also it's improved High spead handeling traits will help the Japanese players manuaver at spead a bit better.
The Oscars would be nice to"flesh out" the plane set but their extreamly light aramement of only two 12.7mm Ho-103 mg's will make them Hanger Quees I think.
From a players prespective, looking at the plane list in the Virtual hanger the following would be most helpfull for a 42/43 slot/New Gunine Japanese plane set.
Ki 45, While I would personaly prefer to see the Ki 102, the Ki 45 would add much in the way of firpower to the Japanese plane set's for the CBI and SWPA in late 42 and 43.
Ki-61-1b,The Tony saw service entry along the North coast of New Gunnie in early 43, a good model to be included would be the one with the 20mm MG 151's cannons, as apposed to the 4 12.7mm MG's This early model of the Tony would make for a Very Nice Early War Japanese Army Fighter, much more servicable for the average player than the Oscar. With this adation we could get away from using the later model Tony we curently have and thusly avoid having to place out of place US machines in our Early war Slot set up's in the CT.
H8K, This would add so much I cant even begine to cover it's coolness.
I mentioned the A6M3 above.
D4Y2, small detchaments of the D4Y2 begaine to be placed on Japanese Cariers in the Autom of 42. This would Give the Japanese side a very Usefull Tool, the fastest Carier born Dive Bomber Of WW2 and a truly Fantastic airplane, it would add much to their arsenal.
Realy If we got the A6M3, the D4Y2, the early Tony and a Ki 45, all would well and good for the early Pac Plane set balance wise, while I like the Oscar it would not help anything in terms of plane set balance and would be little used, those 4 planes would all see much use.
For the Later War Perioud:
I would Skip the Jake, It was in all respect's inferiour to the George, and the Japanese Navy basicaly canceled it in Favore of the George, they are also prety much in the same time frame.
Obviously a Ki 84 is a must.
If we get a later model D4Y2, that could bridge the gap between late war and early war this would be great, since this plane is primarly a Ground/ship atack weapon using a later model would not be a big issue and it would kill two birds with one stone.
A Grace would be imo the Best all around late war Japanese Strike platform to hope for, great speead, Handeling aramamnt and a usefull bombload make this plane the only logical choice.
A Ki 102 would be nice as well.
Realist whishfull thinking would reduce this list to the Ki 84, and the Grace, for late war.
Over all best Choice for :
1 Japanese plane added: Ki 84 (politics it is wanted bad)
2 Japanese Planes added: Ki 84, A6M3
3 Japanese Planes added: Ki 84,A6M3,D4Y2
4 Japanese Planes added:ki 84, A6M3,D4Y2,Ki 61-1b
I cant even begin to hope for more than that in the next Vershion.
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Vladd, I would love to see the Betty as well, but I am not willing to pay the price for her adation. A buff like the Betty would take up a ton of time from HTC, I have been told bombers can take up the same time as 3 or 4 fighter planes.
Also adding the early G4M would creat serious bomber balance isues for the CT and she alone would not help plabalance at all, allied bomber types that were actualy in theritor would nead to be added to counter her. I know it sounds insane but it is true. If the only argument is one for imershion then plug in the Peggy and sub away, just like we do with all those late war US bombers for evey event under the sun, heck I was so hoared out using the B26 for this that and everything else in the CT I cant get mediclal coverage.
In a perfect world having a Early war Japanes bomber and a late war model would be great, same as the German bomber issue, Russian, ect.
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How about the Ki-100 brady. considered by many to be the finest japanese fighter of the war.
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I thought about it, but the Ki 84 is better, and so popular in the I want it I want it I want it catagory, that it is hard to compeat aganst. I tryed to think of planes that would be easy for HTC to do, like the two Varients(one Zero Varient and one Tony Varient) and then just a decent strike plane that would span a big time frame like the Juddy( and Ki 45), the only realy New fighter is the Ki 84, this way no new fighter production is going to fill the early war planeset just two varients the fighter is for the MA, and not so much the CT. The Juddy is for both since it is a Carier plane, the Ki 45 could find use in the MA to I think.
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Those are good reasons. But we could have an early model Ki-100 the one that utilizes our current Ki-61 frame. I do agree that a Hamp is a good idea.
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Viper,
The problem with the Ki.100 is that it didn't enter service until after the N1K2-J, about March of 1945 I think, was built in tiny numbers, and the top speeds I've seen reported for it were 336mph and 360mph, slower than the N1K2-Jand Ki.61-I-KAIc and maybe slower than the A6M5b.
The Ki.84 entered service in April of 1944, was built in massive (by Japanese standards) numbers and had a top speed of about 400mph.
The Ki.84 would be better in the MA and more useful in senarios and CT setups.
As far as I know the only reason the Ki.100 was considered that good was because it was reliable, something not modeled in AH.
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Viper, Aside from the points that Karnak put up the only, and perhaps the main reasion i would still favor the early Tony over a later one is that virtualy all special events and CT set up's using the PAC plane set are 42/43 related, and presently we have only one Japanese fighter to field aganst 5 allied ones, of the two possable Japanese Army fighters(excluding the KI 45) Available at this time in the SWPA the Oscar and the Tony, the later is certainly the best choice for reasions mentioned above, and our nead is so big hear.
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Yeah, but maybe before we get the a new Japanese plane, we could get a reply from HiTech Creations
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Replay about what?
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God I would love a KI-102. I would love to have any new twin engine ride.
ME-410
KI-102
Pe-2/3 series
Tu-22
He-219
A-26
Ki-45
Ta-154
Do-335
:eek: :eek:
Do-217
P-61
TO name a few.
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they are all cannon fodder for f6fs
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Ki-84s eat F6Fs for breakfest.
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last time i checked the US navy slaughtered the japanese airforces'
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Better check again.....Ki 84's were more than a Match for helcats, so were N1K2-J's.
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On July 28, 1945, in one of the few serious encounters with enemy aircraft over Japan, eight VF-16 pilots, flying F6F-5s, shot down 12 Franks and one George without loss to themselves.
Thank you very much.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by brady
Replay about what?
What they are planning to do. The only posts in announcements forum recently have been about "Aces High Championship Shootout"
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they looked good on paper im sure brady, the air war in the pacific is a joke. the american planes are just so superior it isnt funny.
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Gentailmen not only was the Frank considered the best Japanese fighter of the war, it also held it's own aganst all late war US planes. When they were fist deployed operationaly in China they gained local airsupiority over P51's in their area:
Capt. Wakamatsu changed his mount to the ki-84 and in his first combat sortie in the new fighter downed two P51's over Wuchow. He went on to kill at least 7 more P51B/C's before he was caught landing his damage plane by a low leval flight of 10 P51's who shot him down,
That gentailmen is the fate of the Japanese Airforces in WW2, they lost do to attration, not because their planes sucked.
During the initial stages of the war the Zero was a far better fighter than the Allied planes at hand, not untill the Coursar and the P38 shoed up did things change in that regard, then later in the war as new Japanese fighters showed up like the George and the Ki 84 were US planese realy chalanged, but it was a war of atration and Japan was doomed. Their are numiours referances to one flight of a certain plane type waxing another type, going both ways, these arguments are not realy good for determing how "good" a plane was, The Frank is every bit the equil if not better in some ways to the Hellcat that is a well established fact, and frankely i was kinda suprised to hear you arguing it the other way:) Not to mentio other plane type's like the Ki 100, the Ki 61 and the Jack, all of which held their own for a time and in some cases even up to the end:
"Two Japanese types that proved to be anything but cannon foder for USAAF fighters were the Ki 84 Hayate, and the Ki 100. With skilled piolets at the controlls both aircraft could more than hold their own aganst the Hellcat, Coursare or Mustang."
Both pasages taken from Japanese Army Air Force Aces 1937-45
By Henery Sakaida
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Kevin they ushaly dont say much about plane adations till they release them.
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A computer game like AH doesn't model the things which made the Japanese airforce a joke.
By 1944/1945, the Japanese air forces were plagued by lack of high-quality fuel, lack of spare parts, manufacturing deficiencies, lack of trained pilots and maintenence personnel, and not enough aircraft production even at the height of their output. NONE of that is a factor in AH. Hence late-war Japanese aircraft, like the Ki-84 or N1K2, will tend to be more effective in AH than they were in WW2.
J_A_B
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Even bearing what J_A_B said which is of course quiet true, the Alies still held the Frank and the George in High regard, also after the war when good maintance and good fuel were available that Ki 84 blew the socks off the compation in test flights.
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sounds like it needs to be perked when it is introduced
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Why?
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well if it outperforms a p51 and f4u1d( like the f4u4 does) why wouldnt it be perked.
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Frogm4n,
It outperformed the P-51 when using the high octane fuel used by the Americans and British. In AH it would be using Japanese fuel which was much poorer. That was to one place J_A_B was wrong. AH does model the poor Japanese fuel.
With American fuel the Ki.84 had a top speed of about 430mph, with Japanese fuel it had a top speed of about 400mph.
On the deck it should do about 350-360mph. It will dominate the F6F-5, but the F4U should be a good match.
Also, the Japanese built 3,514 of them. It was a very common Japanese fighter.
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"AH does model the poor Japanese fuel. "
Depends on which plane. The N1K2 is modeled with the bad gas; the Ki-61 is not (Ki-61 lost about 20 MPH wien it switched to lower quality gas, from upper 360's to upper 340's). I don't know about the Zekes.
J_A_B
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I remember reading about the Japanese goin in with inferior number s and shooting down I think 12 US aircraft. Not sure if Sakai was there. BUt I believe it was KI-84's that just put a whoppin on those US planes.
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J_A_B,
You do seem to be correct about the Ki.61-I. The top speed I have listed for it is 348mph.
Sachs,
If it was Ki.84s Sakai would not have been there as he was in the IJN and the Ki.84 was an IJA aircraft.
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Yeah your right Karnak I will have to go dig through my books to find it.
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Originally posted by Sachs
I remember reading about the Japanese goin in with inferior number s and shooting down I think 12 US aircraft. Not sure if Sakai was there. BUt I believe it was KI-84's that just put a whoppin on those US planes.
I recall reading about some Ki-84's shooting down a dozen F6F's over Okinawa during the fighting there. I also recall a test pilot in a N1K2 being attacked by 12 F6f's near the home islands, shooting down 4 of them, and the others lit out for home.
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Such shootdowns of American aircraft by Japanese pilots late in the war were a rarety. Total Hellcat losses to enemy action were less than 300 during the two years that the F6F was committed to combat. Japanese pilots were known to "cook the books" a little when claiming victories. I find it a little difficult to believe that a single pilot could take on six sections, 12 aircraft, flown by well-trained pilots and shoot down four of them and still live to tell about it. Even Saburo Sakai admits that some of his compatriots were prone to boast wildly about the number of kills that they had achieved.
With the large numbers of U.S. aircraft present in the Pacific, the Japanese aces certainly had the opportunity to run up high scores, but not if they flew stupidly. Eric Hartmann did not run up his talley of 352 kills by engaging multiple bogies simultaneously. It was a sure way to commit suicide.
Regards, Shuckins
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Shuckins,
Enough of this.
Just go and read the US test reports on the Ki.84 if you don't believe us.
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Kill over claiming was a problem on all sides, I think if memory serves only the Germans were truley anal about it to the point that their claims are never realy disputed,In fact in the case of Hartman it is generaly held true that he got more than 352, but could only prove to the satisfaction of the German system that he had 352. I have seen(I wish I had all my books hear) referances for a number of late war engagements between Japanese and American fighters off Japan whear both sides clearly overclaimed.
As Karnak hinted at, the debate over kills claimed realy has no bearing on the bases issue of this post, it is a side topic.
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Brady,
According to the book "Luffwaffe JG52 War diarys" during the BoB the Germans and Goering kept over estimating the number of airiel kills to the point of the German intelligence believing that the Brits were always down to there last onehundred A/C. The book mentions that Goering punished his fighter pilots by forcing them to fly tight cover for the bombers and not letting them go after the fighters.
So I guess it was the same everywhere.
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If the Ki-84 is brought to AH, as it SHOULD be, then HiTech should model it the way it actually performed FOR THE JAPANESE DURING THE WAR, with 100 octane fuel, not the 150 octane that became available AFTER Japan capitulated. The Frank was in WarBirds and I believe it was modelled that way, but I don't know for sure.
If we want HiTech to model all the might-have-beens then AH will lose all realism. If we're going to go down that path, then let's bring in the Bearcat, XF6F-6, F-80, Sea Fury, Tigercat, and a host of others that almost made it into combat.
Friendly regards, Shuckins
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F4UDOA, the operative phrase was "if Memorie servies":), I am shure your right, it was the same prety much every whear.
Shuckins, I am shure they will model the way it did preform during the war, and by all acounts it did prety good even with the toejamy gas.
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Shuckins,
The people asking for the Ki.84 expect it to be modeled with 88 octane fuel like the Japanese were using, not like the 100 octane the US tested it with. It was never flown with 150 octane fuel.
You should know that the Ki.84, using Japanese fuel, still massively out performs the F6F-5. With 88 octane fuel I expect that the Ki.84 will have a deck speed of 350 to 360mph and a top speed of 390 to 400mph at about 20,000ft. The initial climb rate of the Ki.84 will be about 3,500ft per minute.
Those numbers are all better than the F6F-5's.
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Of course, there's a lot of other planes in AH which outclass the F6F on paper, yet the F6F holds up perfectly well (things like the Spit 9 and LA5 and N1K2 come to mind).
The F6F's biggest assets n the MA are IMO its carrier availability, durability, diving ability, big ammo load and versatile nature. It's an example of an airplane that is "greater than the sum of its parts".
I wish we had a Ki-84; then we could do late-war pacific setups that are actually somewhat fair.
J_A_B
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J_A_B,
I agree that the F6F-5 is a great fighter in AH. I simply disagree with Frogm4n's comment, and Shuckin's backing of it, that they are all just cannon fodder for F6Fs.
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When the Ki-84 is introduced to AH, it will immediately become one of the top three or four fighters. Its that good. And thats when it is modeled with the 80 ish octane fuel.
It won't be the fastest, but fast on the deck, excellent climbrates, above averaging turning ability, and good guns with plenty of ammo. But it most likely will not be perked ( unless Pyro has been hitting the crack again :p ). Just expect a well rounded plane.
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Originally posted by brady
I think if memory serves only the Germans were truley anal about it to the point that their claims are never realy disputed
*cough* ...um...there are some of us who realy dispyute thoze Gyrmyn clayms, Brady. Nawt in thys thred, thoa.
- oldman
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how about this, Ki-84 (unperked) with 88 octane fuel, or perked with the good stuff :)
Btw, does anyone know if/where the postwar USAAF evaluations are online?
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Originally posted by Shuckins
I find it a little difficult to believe that a single pilot could take on six sections, 12 aircraft, flown by well-trained pilots and shoot down four of them and still live to tell about it.
Regards, Shuckins
from http://www.kotfsc.com/aircraft/n1k1.htm :
The Shiden Kai was to become perhaps the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theatre. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.
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Rasker,
That is a well discredited encounter. It never happened.
The N1K2 was very good, but some author somewhere created that encounter.
As to the fuel of the Ki.84, I do not think it should be modeled in any way with the US 100 octane fuel as it never fought with that fuel (unless it was post war in Chinese or French service).
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Originally posted by Karnak
Rasker,
As to the fuel of the Ki.84, I do not think it should be modeled in any way with the US 100 octane fuel as it never fought with that fuel (unless it was post war in Chinese or French service).
I don't think so - mechanical reliability isn't modeled, too. Maybe Japanese fuel was bad at the end of the war, but Knit/Rook/Bishland fuel is just fine, unless HTC gets fuel quality connected to bombed fuel refineries...
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The George is curently modeled with the lower octain fuel, I am shure HTC will model the Ki 84 with the same fuel, the fuel it would of operated on historicaly, just like all the other planes in AH.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Such shootdowns of American aircraft by Japanese pilots late in the war were a rarety. Total Hellcat losses to enemy action were less than 300 during the two years that the F6F was committed to combat. Japanese pilots were known to "cook the books" a little when claiming victories. I find it a little difficult to believe that a single pilot could take on six sections, 12 aircraft, flown by well-trained pilots and shoot down four of them and still live to tell about it. Even Saburo Sakai admits that some of his compatriots were prone to boast wildly about the number of kills that they had achieved.
In my research of the SWPA, I have found that the Japanese sometimes over-claimed by an order of magnitude.
Typical instances are:
Claimed 8, killed 0
Claimed 22, killed 1
Claimed 13, killed 2
Claimed 44, killed 6
Claimed 9, killed 1
In the above engagements, American and RAAF pilots also over- claimed.
Claimed 6, killed 3
Claimed 17, killed 12
Claimed 5, killed 4
Claimed 19, killed 16
Claimed 3, killed 3
So, the Japanese claimed 96, but only shot down 10.
Allied pilots claimed 50, but only shot down 38.
Japanese pilots claimed 9.6 kills for each actual kill.
Allied pilots claimed 1.32 kills for each actual kill.
In Burma and China, the JAAF claimed to have shot down 143 AVG Tomahawks. Oddly enough, the AVG entered combat with only about 82 aircraft (100 arrived in Rangoon, one was dropped off the dock, 17-18 were destroyed in training accidents). Total losses to enemy aircraft were just 12. 143/12 = 11.9/1
All engagements are randomly selected and took place in 1943, involving IJN, JAAF, USAAF, USN and RAAF units.
Today, most Japanese historians have reduced the score of their pilots by about 40-50%. Some western historians suggest that a 75% reduction would be closer to reality.
Another interesting area to look at is the brief war between the Soviet Union and Japan in the late 1930s. Here the Soviets over-claimed by a factor of 4, the Japanese by a factor of 6.
By the way, of all Allied aircraft encountered, Japanese pilots feared the F6F Hellcat the most, followed closely by the P-38.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Karnak
(unless it was post war in Chinese or French service).
eh? Chinese and French were using IJN and IJA planes after the war? I have read that the Thai Airforce was using Oscars. I assumed that they purchased them during the war... but where do they get the parts for maintenance?
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This is true Dutchman, The French even rearmed some Japanese prisioners of war in Indochina to help them fight the Commies briefely after WW2 ended. I beleavey got the parts from stuff lying around.
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Chinise Oscar postwar:
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(http://www.macgeneration.com/jeux/images/trabaul/9.jpg)
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I agree that when we get the KI-84 FRANK it will become a real force to be reconded with. I hope this will drive up the numbers flying Japanese during the PTO events in the CA. They need it.
It is also academic argueing about "Which Gas" the flight model will be modeled on. It didn't have US gas when it flew during combat so it shouldn't have it in here. It should use the 88 Octaine Japanese gas. Plain Common Sense.
NOTE on US gasoline during WW2: While AV GAS was generally rated at 100% Octaine and that's what the a/c engines were rated at. However most gas was way above that rateing up to as much as 150% Octaine. My Grandfather worked at a refinery and passed this info on to me.
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Hallo(Hajimemashite)! I posted here for the first time!
I'm from Tokyo Japan(Hachiouji-City). I'm Japanese.
This is the testdata of Ki-84a(the "S17" codenamed by U.S.A.F) by
U.S T.A.I.U(Technical Air Intelligence Unit) in the spring of 1945.
And in Japan, people generally regard this result of flight-testing as it powered by 140-octane gasoline, but in my opinion, the gasoline used in this test was regular and more normal AN-F-28(100/130)gas for USAF. Empty weight of Ki-84a is 2660-2698kg. And full loaded weight is 3770-3890kg. The weight of the aircraft in this test was about 3600kg, and this could be regarded as its normal combat weight.
DATA
Max Speed: 689(or687)km/h/6100m
Cruising Speed: 410km /h/unknown
Climbing Performance: 3000m/2min48sec
6100m/5min48sec
Service Ceiling: 11800m
Range: 1650km(normal)
2920km(with two droptanks)
On the other side, another captured Ki-84a("T2-302" coded by US) went through more rigorous testing at the Middletown Air Depot in Pennsylvania in April and May of 1946. The Ki-84a proved superior in early climbing performance, maneuverability and overall handling to the both P-47N and P-51H. Max Speed was slightly inferior to those two aircraft, and the range of the Ki-84a was nearly equal to those of P-51H. But it received negative marks for numerous exhaust pipe problems during testing. According to "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" by Rene J Francillon, in this flight-testing, The speed of The HAYATE at the combat weight with its war emargency power exceeded that of the P-51D-25-NA and P-47D-35-RA at the same altitude(20,000ft) by 3mph and 22mph respectively.
For your Information ---
Sorry for my bad English and thanks for reading! BYE!
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
Brady,
According to the book "Luffwaffe JG52 War diarys" during the BoB the Germans and Goering kept over estimating the number of airiel kills to the point of the German intelligence believing that the Brits were always down to there last onehundred A/C. The book mentions that Goering punished his fighter pilots by forcing them to fly tight cover for the bombers and not letting them go after the fighters.
So I guess it was the same everywhere.
During BoB the German A2A kill tallies were as accurate as they could be under the circumstances (prolly underestimated considering the strict rules concerning kill verification the Germans used). The overestimation (huge one too) was on how many Spits and Hurries the German bombers destroyed on the ground.
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Febyary 17th 1945:
"despite the falling snow, a successful suprise attack was made from a height of 2,500 meters on 19 F6Fs and F4Us that had almost reached their rendezvous point in the skys over Atsugi area.Chasing the enemy aircraft back to see, the 10 planes shot down the entire enemy force of Ninteen aircraft(six probables)"
They were in N1K2-J's of the Yokosuka Air Group.
p.236 Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War Two
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punt.