Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StSanta on February 05, 2003, 10:21:21 AM
-
Seen a few posts that mention that lots of outsourcing is done to India where wages are much lower.
Some suggest that those of us (me inlcuded) that studied com. sci. thinking we'd have safe careers ahead are toejam outta luck.
Yes, there is outsourcing. Yes, the IT industry is suffering badly.
I dobt, however, that it is the end of software development done in western nations.
Medium and small companies need software that is directly fitted to their business model. And you do NOT outsource your core business model. Giving info to an outside company might mean revealing secrets you don't want to reveal.
So there'll be some in house development.
But perhaps people are right.Perhaps I'd need to get another education now. Perhaps the third world is taking all our SW development work. And thereby all the expertise. We might hire them as programmers now, but pretty soon they'll start their own companies, and we'll CEO them no more.
Am a bit worried, to say the least. Dunno what field of work I could possibly tolerate. And I am 27. I want a job and a life, not more studies, possibly studying something I don't have a passion for.
Ugh, this is depressing :/
-
you have a cowd? :)
I'm one of those people who's worrying about the outsourcing but I'm going to guess that alot of it will have to be software engineering because alot of the support for network, server and desktop needs to remain local and hands on.
-
Ya-I made a post recently about Oleg’s domination of the sim industry. He (Oleg) has a distinct advantage doing his development work in Russia. What do you think he pays his developers? 200/month ..or less. He can pick from the very best and pay them nothing. He markets and sells his product in the West. People pay US$ or Euro$ for his product…what a business model!!
Its Ironic that India is taking so much work away from the IT industry here in the US. Many of the layed off workers are in-fact Indian Immigrants who were lured here by our Congress when they loosened visa requirements for IT pro’s. Now we have a glut of IT workers here-both foreign born and US. What is happening to these foreign born workers…are they going home..NO. Unscrupulous contract firms are taking advantage of them by paying them WAY less than market rates for their services. No US worker will work at those wages. This is happening here in the US. This + oversees outsourcing is killing the IT industry. I got a friend delivering Pizza’s here with a masters in computer science while foreign born Indians work at less than market value HERE in Michigan…something is wrong .
-
You guys are only seeing the surface of the problem.
American educated IT personel (and no offense intended to those in that job class) do not get the education that others around the world get.
Our education system, generally speaking, in the area of IT and in many other areas of technology is very poor and outdated. The only way to get a good handle on technology related education is to attend schools like MIT or others approaching that level.
Companies are coming to grips with this and looking to other nations to get the properly educated personnel to handle the ever growing complexities of the IT industry.
At the same time, companies do not want to hire people with 20+ years experience (I know, I went through that) as they simply deem it too expensive.
Hiring fresh faces out of college is what companies are doing these days, which brings us back to the education problem.
A guy fresh out of an Indian college has a much better chance of landing a job in a company in the U.S. than I do.
-
Thats not out sourcing.
In the industry that is called Offshore developement.
Where as work between the US and Canada is called Near shore developement.
-
You guys are only seeing the surface of the problem.
Skuzzy,
I think the educational differences you describe are the surface of the problem, underneath it's all about relative cost. In India, a computer science student can go from college straight to a $10K/year programming job, which is probably equivalent to about $130K in the US. If he wants my job there's no way I can compete with $10K/year, a grocery bagger makes more than that. But if he wants $130K, I'm completely safe, no matter how much more educated than me he is. Not all programming work requires a guru, usually just a competent, experienced programmer can get the job done.
But he only wants $10K, so US programmers gradually find it harder and harder to find work, and no amount of education will close that gap.
ra
-
scuzzy my wife spent about a year going to lamar tech getting her ccna.
and get this, it wasent a joke she spend 2 or 3 hours a nite studying . nothing but A's the university hired her while still in class (she fixed a school server that had been screwed up for months during a training class)
she while still working at university prepared a excellent entry resume with 4 years experience waiting tables in one resuraunt and 9 months or so of doing 4 hours a day at univercity help desk/upgrade center. picture perfect she literaly loves computers/servers would spend dosens of extra hours at school just to get acess to the servers to experiment, she friggin cried when i gave her her first piece of hardware, a router the economy crashes we run out of cash so she drops out after takin all the comp related classes for comp networking degree takes ccna and passes first time.
then literaly hundreds of resumes sent and online applications filled out and not one responce. not one
shes doing data encoding such a waste.
its not dieing its dead.
-
Worked on a project with a couple of devs from Calcuta, wow. I was impressed by their speed for one thing, and they were organised like i will never be ;).
I't harder to get non ASP or CFM related jobs here in Europe... I still see a lot of open jobs in the US/UK/Canada though.
I'm contracting right now, but still looking for a perm job, so... I'm still listed in the agencies... on 10 Offers I get a Day, 9 are SAP and the last one is usualy tech support, or ASP.
I might just have to sell my soul to the devil one day :)
-
?
-
Just lost my Tech postition to outsourcing 2 weeks ago. seems the IT industry is a dying breed. Need to get a county job... set for life.
-
User support.
Remember those words.......to any IT contractor those words can strike fear in the soul, but in a few years thats what we'll all be doing cos rest assured.....somewhere there's a numpty who has no clue what he's doing and is about to call the helpdesk.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
-
IMO the IT industry grew rapidly due to growing the infrastructure in the 90's. Apparently many assumed the growth would continue. Growth always demads more resources than equilibrium. Growth slowed, jobs disappeared. There are still jobs in the industry but competition is fierce. Good time to be self- employed.
-
Originally posted by Swoop
User support.
Remember those words.......to any IT contractor those words can strike fear in the soul, but in a few years thats what we'll all be doing cos rest assured.....somewhere there's a numpty who has no clue what he's doing and is about to call the helpdesk.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
Doing that now, in a requirements sort of way. We have a user hotline, but generally it doesn't get many calls. Engineers give us their requirements, we communicate to the vendor their needs, vendor makes changes, we test them, and then make the change to the software. Its been pretty stable even with our decline of employees because, as Swoop said...there's always someone who needs help.
-
I'd also like to add that survival for me has been "knowing alittle about everything, and knowing alot about nothing"...in other words, flexible, willing to learn, and going to school constantly (on or off hour training) to stay current on whats coming around the bend.
-
I dunno..out sourced IT sucks!!
As an example.. I get agriavted when I call Dell tech support which based in India..and I get someone who doesn't speak english quiet right. And trying to explain that I need a new mother board becasue it's dumped the IDE controller. Yet after an hour worth of talking with this yahoo he say's well I beleive you have a bad board!!
I'm not pleased with the out sourced IT's.
-
I agree on that assessment for keeping a job Rip, but getting the job is the most difficult part.
I know, as I sent hundreds of resumes out when my company went under, and did not get a single call. Overall, I think I have a very well rounded set of skills with experience and education backing me.
It was a mind numbing experience for me. It really never occurred to me that I would not be able to get work, given the skill sets I carry around.
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
I agree on that assessment for keeping a job Rip, but getting the job is the most difficult part.
I know, as I sent hundreds of resumes out when my company went under, and did not get a single call. Overall, I think I have a very well rounded set of skills with experience and education backing me.
It was a mind numbing experience for me. It really never occurred to me that I would not be able to get work, given the skill sets I carry around.
I've always kept several "Skill sets", a Machinist, an NC Programmer, a Tool and Die maker, now an Engineering Applications Analyst. Worst comes to worst, I can always go back into restaurant management. The last thing you want to do today is shoe-box yourself into one localized skill set. :eek:
-
outsourcing IT is bad... but i like my 600$ PC...
importing cars is bad ... but i like cars for reasonable price...
importing textiles is bad... but i won't pay more then 15$ for a t-shirt
Can't have your cake and eat it too.
I'm in IT and directly affected by the very things you talk about. However, i think you're looking at a dying phenomena. India is not a third world coutry, by any standard. It's education level is simply amazing by any measure. There aren't many other countries like that. Ever wondered why noone outsources to Pakistan?
I think India, Russia and Eastern Block coutrnies are the only ones falling in the category of "pay little for skilled workers" types. This however is a self fixing situation. 5 yeaars ago in Poland you could find programmers for 200$ per month. Last year, friend of mine who has a software business said he pays about 2000$ / month to experianced programmers.
Russia will come around as well.
Besides... IT is like any other skill. True talent will shine though :)
-
In 1991, the PM of India said "Asia is capital of hardware technology, we will be a nation known as a capital in software" and free college for IT/IS was given to residents. We're just now seeing the results of what is to be the tip of the iceburg (I'm watching it happen at a company with 150,000 employees)
-
If you don't think India is a third world country then your a moron. Its a country with a population approaching 1 billion..most live in desperate poverty. I promise you there will be a steady supply of cheap programmers coming from there for years..India can't be compared to Poland my friend.
Oh and Skuzzy about the education thing. I work with a programmer from India. She's has a master's degree in computer science and until she immigrated to the US-she had NEVER WORKED ON A COMPUTER!!!! All of her programming work was on pen and paper. She is a terrible programmer....she works for a contract firm that pays her 30% less than market rate because of her visa status and she is taking the job of an American.
-
I have been in the MIS/IT field for 7 years
I started the MSN project When we had 40 people on it
I have been out of work since sept of last year
I start at schnieder national driving 18 wheelers feb 10th
U.S. school counselors now tell students to expect 15 career changes in there lives .
Ive been thru 3 career fields and am only 33
Life sux You adapt and move on
-
I don't fear my job to outsourcing, even though I know my company is doing it in some areas. Mostly with legacy systems and languages, systems that are already on the way out the door, but are expensive to maintain until then. These are the types of things being outsourced right now. The programmers being replaced, could have took it upon themselves to update their skills. I love all my programming brothers and sisters... but it is kind of 'Lemming' like to see technology change and not change with it when your job is to support it. As for new development, at least in my environment, I'm not sure you could save money outsourcing because you really have to understand your customers business to be able to see where you can help them the most. Heck... 66% of our developers WERE contractors, but were told to take a job with the company or find other work. Some make 1/3 to 1/4 of what they did... but it is still a decent living.
Unfortunately a few years ago, the market was flooded a bit with 'boot camp' certs and WYSIWYG devs who really didn't know what they were doing. Anyway... the glory days of throwing gobs of money at IT personnel might be over *sniff*, but there is still a demand for good programmers and IT personnel.
-
Originally posted by rickod
You adapt and move on
SHACK!(Thks Funked)
-
Skuzzy wrote:
American educated IT personel (and no offense intended to those in that job class) do not get the education that others around the world get.
Our education system, generally speaking, in the area of IT and in many other areas of technology is very poor and outdated. The only way to get a good handle on technology related education is to attend schools like MIT or others approaching that level.
That's the funny thing Skuzzy. A computer science degree from Aalborg university in Denmark means just one thing - computer science.
In the US, you can put together a program. Sure, you have some mandatory classes, but you can get an Ms, even though you spent two years studying things that aren't related to computer science. Think you call it a 'minor' or something.
Here, comp. sci. is just that. Not a day is spent on anything else. if you want a Ms, spend all time with comp. sci.
I haven't got an Ms, still got two more years for that. OTOH, all the time I've spent in school have been working with computer science. I know my toejame - graduated fourth of my year. But still because there are so many unemployed IT people out there with more experience, I am finding that getting a job ain't easy.
This despite the fact that I KNOW that I am better than people with Ms's, who've done philosophy or whatnot as a minor.
It's frustrating to say the least.
But I'll get a job eventually. IT sector is hit hard right now, but as soon as the economy turns around, they'll start putting money into the IT departments. The last company i was at an interview for had fired lots of people (International Business Systems) but have now turned it around.
The example with Poland is interesting. I do believe that the indian programmers won't be cheap forever. then there's this thing of producing reliable software close to the customer. You'd need a complete design before you could outsource the coding bit. And there'd still be maintenance and upgrading. Some say that the biggest cost in SW development isn't the development itself, but the running costs of maintaining the systems.
Am off - got some more resumes to send in. Laters d00ds.
-
When our company partners with Indian companies all the business design and a technical designer are from our comaany.
They will typically staff a technical architect and all the developers.
They write very very very good code.
We had to send a designer to Deli to get them on track on the last project though. As they were writing the wrong code. Oh well. He wanted to go to Deli for a month anyway.
Here in BC we have a very large population of East Indians and collaboration of that type makes good sense.