Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: daddog on February 05, 2003, 03:17:59 PM
-
P-38 a failure in the ETO (or at least not as successful) and a success in the PTO?
Do you think the same would be true of it in Aces High?
-
The P-38 was one of the great aircraft of World War II. Our thought was that those guys in Europe didn't know how to use it right, and I still think that.
-Col. Charles MacDonald, Commanding Officer 475th FG- 27 aerial victories
That was taken from the P38 usage and statistics page in the Help section of this website. How valid is that statement? Were the tactics used in Europe any different than the Pacific other than point and shoot?
-
Do you know something we dont :P
I wouldnt classify it a "failure" but its was expensive and took longer to produce then single eng planes. The p38 faced an experienced lw, even in NA.
Theres some on here that will tell you the p38 was flying through telephone poles while shooting down hundreds of lw planes while outnumbered and was made of titanium. Thats mostly bs spin.
Galland thought the p38 was no tougher to kill then a 110 was. Theres rumors that the lw sent their green pilots after the 38s.
The 38 is not particularly fast (although it could outrun the 190as and 109s lo), its roll isnt that great and its climb is not better then the 109s, especially above 6000m. The 38 had poor visibility from the rear and sides.
In the pto it was easily faster, climbed better, better armed and had decent range. Its twin eng was a safety feature while flying over the ocean.
Go here
http://tonywood.cjb.net/
Start here
Mediterranean & Southern Front 1941-1942. Vol. I Nov '42
This is by no means a complete list but you can see they had a tough time.
The p38 wasnt a "failure" it just wasnt the plane the p47 or p51 was.
ISBN 1-85367-327-7
Greenhill books 1998
At Kaufbeuren, Germany, 2 September 1945
page 217, Chapter 30
'GAF opinions of allied aircraft'
Interigation of Generalleutnant Galland,Generalfeldmarschel Milch,Oberstleutnant Bar,Generalmajor Hitschhold, and Leutnant Neuman at kaufbeuren Germany 2nd september 1945.
'The Lightning (P38) This aircraft was very fast and had a good rate of climb below 20,000 feet. Visibility backwards , downwards and over the engines was very poor.It was considered a good strafer due to its armament ,visibilty,speed and silent motors.Its main drawback were its vulnerability and lack of maneuverability.On the deck, it could out-run the me.109 and fw190.German fighters would always attack the P38s in preference to other allied escort fighters.'
Also we have the p38l in aces high and its not representative of the 38 models the lw faced.
When the 38 first flew over over Europe they got a good whoopin at the hands of the 190. This was mostly do to pilot inexperience.
But like every oher plane it comes down to the pilot.
We need earlier variants of the 38 for events, AH2:ToD and the ct.
Heinrich Bartels shot 14 p38s.
-
Complication and mechanical delicacy at very high alts in the early models which saw service in the ETO.
The P38 was also succesfull in the MTO; where the mission profile was different.
-
Range and the survivability of a twin engine design served the aircraft well in the Pacific. Jap planes were generally not as fast as compared to LW planes that could catch the 38. Many LW planes could out dive the 38. Some of the Jap planes might not have done so well in a dive compared to the 38.
As for the "main" comparison, well, I've seen some great 38 drivers but there is always someone in a faster plane who can take a shot at the 38. Personally I find the 38 one of the easiest planes to kill if I can catch it. A skilled 38 driver will keep his energy and never allow the opposition to get a shot off.
-
Batz has part of it, seeker is also correct.
In my opinion they tried to use it as a long range high altitude bomber escort.
Clearly it did better as a lower alt ground attack & sweep fighter.
-
Wasn't to late in war that U.s. gov. Decided to fix Dirty air problem. P38 was a widow maker. with its design flaw. when it was fixed in late 1943 it became a great plane.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73551
from Hap s talk on p38's
Problems...
But Lockheed as a company was unused to playing the political games required to bring a major production fighter through its infancy, and other unique problems plagued the Lightning as it was developed. It was fast - too fast, as it become the first fighter to suffer heavily from compression (until then a largely misunderstood aerodynamic effect) with deadly results. The inline V12 engines could be married to a supercharger system that delivered high horsepower, but the entire system was unreasonably finicky compared to the much sturdier radials popular in other designs. Eventually difficulties with the Lightning reached almost bizarre proportions - for example a C47 carrying equipment to correct compression on many of the operational P38s in the 8th Army Air Force was accidentally shot down over the Atlantic by a British pilot, a setback that cost the P38 months of good use in Europe.
These events conspired to put the Lightning in a difficult situation: in the early part of the European bombing campaign, it was the only fighter with range to fly into Germany and back, but it was also basically an incomplete design, and Lockheed was having a very difficult time meeting production demands that required both new fighters and retro fittings for older units at the same time.
-
Quality of adversary airplanes and aircrew.
-
Poor reliability at high alt low tempretures.
Very complex to fly.
This really hit the pilots in regards to being bounced. In a well structured and expertley manned Ground Control Intercept enviroment the offensive aircraft will often have to contend with well set up bounces.
It took the pilot a long series of operations to take a Lightning from cruise to combat. During which time it was not near full effective and the pilot was occupied in the cockpit. This combined with the effectiveness of the LW ground controlers in setting up a bounce and the distinctive shape of the 38 allowing the German pilots to identify it visually very early on to set up a bounce from one of its huge blind spots made the AC quite a bit more vulnerable then the Jug or the 51
-
"P-38 a failure in the ETO (or at least not as successful) and a success in the PTO?
Do you think the same would be true of it in Aces High?"
I think the P-38 will preform just as well in the ETO, as the PTO in games. You can't replicate most the problems the P-38 faced in the ETO in a gaming enviroment.
I've been doing alot of research on the P-38 over the last months. It amazes me how unlucky Lockheed was. If Lockheed was luckier it's a good possiblility the P-51, and P-47 wouldn't have been so popular, or numerous.
Do some research on the P-38K (http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/P-38K.html) model.
Good P-38 Read (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38.html)
Yep, I'm a new guy.
S!
-
Originally posted by funkedup
Quality of adversary airplanes and aircrew.
i think the same
-
Originally posted by daddog
P-38 a failure in the ETO (or at least not as successful) and a success in the PTO?
Do you think the same would be true of it in Aces High?
There are a lot of reasons why the P-38 was less successful in ETO than it was in the PTO or MTO. Inadequate pilot training in two engine fighter operations, no clear initial understanding of compressability and some design flaws that didn't take under account the cold temperatures of high altitude flying. These are just some of the reasons why the P-38 wasn't considered an overwhelming success in the ETO. Which is strange for an aircraft that was nicknamed the "Forked Tail Devil" by the enemy.
Once the kinks were worked out by the time the J models rolled out, the P-38 was just as a deadly fighter as any of the LW planes it faced but a lot of the higher command had already given up on the P-38 in the ETO so it's fate was pretty much sealed.
In other area of operations like the Pacific and Meditteranian the P-38 was successful, in a large part due to the operation altitudes were lower then in the Europe theater were operational altitudes were over commonly over 20,000ft. The average operational altitude in the Meditteranian and Pacific was 15,000ft so the P-38 rarely encountered the problems the P-38s in Europe faced, stuff like compressability. With its long range, hitting power of its guns and ground attack capabilities, the P-38 became on of the most successful fighters in the Pacific and Meditteranian theaters. Remember the two top all time U.S. aces flew P-38s which shows how effective it was in the Pacific.
How does this relate to the P-38 in Aces High? Other than the inherent disadvantages of the P-38 like its large profile, less than stellar cockpit visibility, and slow low speed roll rate (there are more but you get the idea) the only real thing you have to watch out for in the P-38 is compressability when you are flying above 20,000ft. Besides compressability, none of the other reasons why P-38 was considered a failure in the ETO is a real factor in AH.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
-
p38 was more successfull then the p39 and p40 in the med. It still was easily handled by the lw.
The p38 was replaced in the med as fast as it was in the ETO. Jugs and p51s took over the load. Follow that link provided of confirmed kills.
Erich Rudorffer:
It was south of Tunis, about 180 kilometres. We got word - we were based at Kairouan - that bombers and fighters were on the way (B-17s of the 301st BG and P-38s of the 1st FG). One Staffel was already sitting in their aircraft and I ordered them off. I was always last to take off and waited to get the latest information on the enemy's course and speed. Then I took off with my Schwarm of four and we assembled with the others in the air and headed for the "dicke Autos und Indianer". They were coming from the west, about 24 B-17s, 18 P-40s, 20 P-38s and a similar number of Spitfires - some of them may have been Hurricanes because when the dogfight began I thought I saw some Hurricanes also. We were at about 7000 metres and the bombers were below us, the P-40s above.
When we started for the bombers the Curtiss fighters came down on us and that's when the dogfight began. After a time the P-40s, which were not as fast as us, went into a 'Luftbery' circle and I began to slip in from low and high and shoot them donw. I managed to shoot down six in about seven minutes. As I recall the combat report, I got one at 1359 and the last at 1406. By that time the fight had broken up and everyone had scattered. Then I saw somw P-38s strafing below us, and though I had only about four FW 190s with me at this time, I went down at them and surprised them. I got one coming from above and then went up again and came down on another and shot him down. That gave me eight for the day - I remember it because it was one of the best days I ever had.
15 February was another eventful day for II./JG 2. B-26s attacked Kairouan, and while scrambling to intercept these bombers, Uffz Rudolf Weitgruber was injured when his FW 190 somersaulted during take-off. The Gruppe achieved more success on this day, with 11 claims being made. The Gruppenkommandeur Lt Rudorffer shot down seven Allied aircraft on a late afternoon sortie, including four P-38s north-west of Pichon and three Spitfires north of El Abeid.
FYI The "Fork Tail Devil" is what ground forces called the p38 not the lw.
-
Originally posted by Batz
Then I saw somw P-38s strafing
below us, and though I had only about four FW 190s with me at this time, I went down at them
and surprised them. I got one coming from above and then went up again and came down on
another and shot him down. That gave me eight for the day - I remember it because it was one of
the best days I ever had.
No offense and I don't want to get into a P-38 is superior to any Luftwaffe plane but that story doesn't prove that the Luftwaffe fighters didn't have problems against the P-38. He describes a text book bounce on an unsuspecting group of enemies. I can post stories of P-38 pilots about their stories of bouncing unwary Luftwaffe pilots and that doesn't prove that the P-38 was far superior than any Luftwaffe plane.
Ack-Ack
-
I said follow the link I posted above, see all those p38 kills?
Theres nothing to "prove". The p38 while better then the p40/p39 didnt fair any better in the med then it did in the eto in a2a combat.
It was superior for ground work.
The fact is they dropped the p38 in med as soon as they got p47s and p51s just like they did in Western Europe.
-
One of the books I read (can't recall the title) had mentioned that more than one German fighter pilot, upon seeing P38's escorting Buffs, began basically "licking their chops" knowing that the P38 was an easy kill. Apparently they felt very confident that their 109's and 190's could out perform them.
-
regarding P-38 compression
"This problem created many rumors, especially in the ETO (where combat missions were normally above 20,000 ft., which is where compressibility is encountered)"
"However, the P-38 will be forever linked to the South Pacific. Japanese ships and aircraft were being savaged under the guns of skilled American pilots. The Japanese were never able to be on the offensive, and were usually on their heels. The P-38 routinely destroyed bombers, fighters, and ships without many losses. In fact, the average kill ratio was over 10 to 1. For every ten confirmed kills, only one P-38 was lost to all causes (this includes being shot down, lost at sea, and mechanical failures)."
http://www.p-38online.com
-
We all assume that the FM of all AH aircraft are pretty close to real life.
In AH I would take any of the 109's and or 190's against the P38 in an air superiority role any day no question about it. Taking in to account the development of each aircraft over time, ie P38F against 109 e and f and P38 J and L against the later model LW etc.
However, up against the zekes and the ki models in the same role I would take the P38. You can pick and choose your fights and disengage at will.
If we had a PTO arena with historical match ups the P38 would be a very popular ride, in my opinion of course.
wipass
-
Aces High events, or the Main Arena? If you are talking events, it will fare better vs the IJN/IJAAF because its speed and climb are superior to the IJ plane set. Even a P-38F did 395 mph in 1942, vs much slower Japanese planes.
The P-38 (like the F4U) rules in any smartly flown event mission vs the Japanese. The Ki-84 is the only a/c they had that could hope to compete with it.
Against the LW, the 109 and 190 were closely matched against it in performance, and they had a better command and control system over Western Europe vs the IJ in the SW Pacific. The LW had much better a/c than the IJ did, so its not a complicated question to figure out.
Air to air vs the LW nobody in their right mind would want a P-40 or a P-39 if they could have a P-38, all its troubles aside.
Med based P-38s produced more aces for the USAAF than any other type in that theater, 37. It was also highly regarded by its pilots and ground crews. It served when it was needed, when there was nothing else available that could match its performance in the USAAFs units.
On a side note: The P-38L in AH makes a fine escort fighter I have found in historical match ups. Not as good as a P-51, but none too shabby when flown properly. Its fast, has a good armament, and can roll and turn very well when it has to.
-
Squire has a very valid point in terms of AH gameplay.
While hoardes of people whine about the N1K2-J in the MA, in PAC CT setups people will quickly find out that under semi-historic conditions, even the "uber" N1K2 is grossly undermatched when it has to face the faster American planes.
No offense to the Axis pilots of the CT(heck, I'm one of them), but aside from some great pilots, usually for the average people like me, JP planes show undeniable disadvantages under 'historic' settings.
It is not hard to imagine the P-38 would have had greater success against Axis planes of the PAC than ETO... and when certain level of historicity is reached, the same shows true even in AH.
-
I wonder what the P-38 would have done with Merlins in the ETO?
they got stuck with Allisons for mostly political reasons. How many stories of Merlins cutting out on take-off? Hmmm can't remember any.
Of course, the extra power of Merlins would have exacerbated the compression phenomena in the early p-38's.
I loce the p-38 in AH because its got real personality. The few who fly it well embarrass the rest of us.
-
fly a zero, any jap ftr for that matter then fly a 190 or 109 .. there's your answer
-
On a side note: The P-38L in AH makes a fine escort fighter I have found in historical match ups.
What historical match ups are you talking about?
Ther p38l came out about the same time as the d9. Its eto historical match up would be the g6/asm and g14/asm.
Were there any l's in Europe?
Even in pac setups what "historical match" up are you talking about? We have no ki-84.
In the med the p38 carried the load because the p40s and p39s couldnt. But as more jugs and 51s came into the theater the p38s load was reduced. The p38 also had lots of losses in the med. A whole lot.
-
cause twin engine prop fighters cannot compete with single engine prop fighters. Simple as that.
-
When the p-38 was introduced to RAF it was greatly poo-pooed.
To demonstrate its ability, the Lockheed training pilot challenged the best RAF ace to a duel. P-38 to spit V (I think).
P-38 cleaned up on the spit. True Story found in "Fork Tailed Devil"
-
Originally posted by Killjoy2
P-38 cleaned up on the spit. True Story found in "Fork Tailed Devil"
P-38 came in hot on the merge and basically roped the spit.
Cheater :)
-
Had the LW had 40% of its fighter force equiped with Ki43s. The P38s would have done quite well.
-
Herb "Stub" Hatch, describes the mission from his vantage point of Cragmore
Green 3, the element leader of the 4th Flight. 71st FS, 1st FG June 10, 1944
"We were briefed that morning very early. We got up around 0400, had some
breakfast and went down to Group Headquarters for briefing. When we walked
in and sat down it was apparent that something unusual was in the air
because of all the Group brass in attendance. When they went to the map
and drew the line to Ploesti all of us kind of went 'Uh, oh.' And then
when they told us what the mission was, there was absolute silence and
utter disbelief on the part of all of us who were going to fly over 600
miles to surprise the Germans in order to dive bomb the Ramano-Americano
refinary.
In the course of the breifing it came out that the 82nd (FG) were the ones
to do the bombing. We were selected for fighter escort. I can't
adequately describe the sense of relief that went through the gathering
when we found out that we weren't going to be the ones carrying a 1000
pound bomb on one side of the airplane and a belly tank on the other - or
that we'd be the ones to dry and dive into that unbelievable flak.
Take off at 0505 went as scheduled. We rendezvoused with the 82nd and
headed for the coast of Yugoslavia. Anyone who has flown formation at low
level knows the difficulty in keeping a squadron of 16 aircraft together,
let alone three squadrons. Nonetheless we hit our IP right on schedule
south of Bucharest. At that point we began our turn north, dropped our
belly tanks and were supposed to begin our climb to altitude to cover the
82nd. As we completed our turn however, we flew right over an enemy
airfield and in the airfield pattern were four or five Dornier 217 bombers.
Our Squadron Leader, First Lieutenant John Shepard turned in and went
after them and the three flights followed him (Blue flight was by this time
cut off) The Dorniers didn't last long. I only wasted some ammo by firing
at one of them at the tail end of the little fight.
At this point we were only 250-300 feet off the ground. As we pulled up
slightly to turn back north again somebody hollered, 'Cragmore Break left
for Chrissake!' I looked to my left and there was a whole flock of FW 190s
headed in from 10 O'clock high.
Our entire squadron broke to the left. As I continued around in my sharp
turn a lone 190 came out of nowhere and pulled right across in front of me.
He was so close -fifty to seventy five yards away- that all I could see in
my ring sight was the belly of his fuselage and the wing roots. I opened
fire with all four 50-caliber machine guns and the 20mm cannon and I just
damn near blew him in half. That saved my neck because when I rolled out
to shoot at the 190 I looked to my right and here comes another bunch of
190s from my 2 0'clock.
There were four 190s in the lead. I did the only thing I could do. I
turned sharply to my right, pulled up and fired again. The leader was
150-250 yards away, nearly head on and slightly to my left. I set the lead
190 on fire with a burst that went through the engine, left side of the
cockpit and the wing root. The 190 rolled to its right and passed me on my
left. I didn't see him crash but my gun camera film showed the fire and my
wingman Lt. Joe Morrison, confirmed that he crashed. Unfortunately the
other three 190s in that flight went right over my head and down on the
tails of Green flight leader and his wingman. Both were shot down.
As I continued my turn around to my right, my wingman stayed with me and I
saw another 190 right up behind one of my tentmates, Joe Jackson flying as
Cragmore white 4. I closed in on that one from about his five o'clock and
tried to shoot his canopy off from about 100 yards, but I was too late to
save Joe. By then the 190 had set Jackson's plane on fire. Joe's plane
rolled over and went in and he was killed. I finally did get a burst into
the cockpit area and the 190 followed Joe right into the ground.
I was still turning to the right, going quite slowly by then, because I had
my combat flaps down. I turned maybe another 90 degrees to my right when I
saw on of our 38s coming head on with a 190 on his tail. We were still
only around 300 feet and the P38 passed over me by fifty-seventy five feet.
I pulled up my nose and opened fire on the trailing 190 from a distance of
about 150-200 yards. He kept coming head on and I shot off the bottom half
of his engine. He nosed down still shooting at me and I had to dump the
yoke hard to miss him. He was burning when he went over me, by not more
then three feet and part of his right wing knocked about three inches off
the top of my left rudder.
As the 190 went over my head I saw three more making a pass at me from my
left. I turned so fast I lost Joe Morrison. I missed my shot that time
but when these three went over me they went after Morrison. I saw three
190s diving on another 38. I snap shot at the leader from about 90 degree
deflection. I hit his left wing and shredded the aileron. He fell off on
his wing and went in. He was so low there was no chance for him to
recover. I kept on going around to my left and shot at the second one with
was going away from me on my left. I hit him, but I am not sure if he went
in. I know I knocked a bunch of pieces off his cowling and fuselage but I
didn't have time to see what was happening to him.
I looked to my 2 o'clock and here comes another 190 right at me. It was
too late for me to turn. I just shut my eyes and hunched down in the
cockpit. I thought I had bought the farm right there. But he missed me,
he never even hit my ship. I think he missed me because I was going so
slowly. He overestimated my speed and was overleading me. I started to
turn his way and when he went behind me I continued on around. There was
another one out there so I closed in on him. I took aim, fired but my guns
only fired about ten rounds and quit. I was out of ammo. I damaged him a
bit but he flew away.
I cannot over emphasize what a melee that was. There were at least twelve
P38s in that little area, all of them at very low altitude. Somewhere
between 25 and 30 190s were also there. None of us were at more then 200
or 300 feet and some were quite a bit lower. The topography was kind of a
little hollow with hills on each side. It was by far the wildest melee I
saw in sixty odd combat missions I flew. I heard one guy who had been
wounded pretty badly, scream until he went in. It was a wild, wild few
minutes. And a few minutes is all it was. According to the mission report
from our debriefing the whole fight took something like three to six
minutes. I had no inkling of elapsed time while it was going on. I was too
damned busy trying to stay alive.
When I woke up to the fact that I was out of ammunition, 600 miles into
enemy territory and all alone, I broke out of the area and went looking for
some company. In only a few minutes I found one of the other planes in my
squadron headed in my general direction. I called the pilot, Carl
Heonshell, on the radio and we joined up. About that time I heard my
wingman Joe Morrison hollering for some help. He was on single engine,
pretty badly shot up and would someone please come help him. So Hoenshell
and I turned back to look for Joe. We finally found him down around 200
feet. After we got him headed in our direction we started to climb out of
there to the west.
Joe's airplane looked like a lace doily. The two 190s that I had not had
time to turn into had gone over the top of me and down onto Joe's tail
because he had broken right when I had broken left. Joe's ship was flying
but just barely. Hoenshell and I were both out of ammo. The three of us
tried to make ourselves as small as possible and headed west. Four or five
minutes later another P38 joined with us. It as Lt. John Allen, a 94th
Squadron pilot. We hoped he had some ammunition. When we called to ask we
found his radio was out and we couldn't talk to him.
Another 25-30 miles west just as we were gaining some altitude we ran into
a bunch of flak. Unfortunately Morrison became separated from us again
because he couldn't maneuver, as quickly to get out of the flak, so we had
to turn around and go back and get him again. We nursed Joe along for a
long, long time. Finally we got out of Rumania and into Yugoslavia and had
climbed to about 12,000 feet. We were S-ing back and forth over Joe
because he couldn't fly as fast as we could on his single engine. As I was
turning from one of our S's I spotted 6 Me109s about 8 0'clock. I hollered
to Hoenshell "Bogies high at 8' o'clock!" He saw them too and cautioned.
"Hold it, hold it, Joe hit the deck." Joe didn't lose any time. He stuck
his nose down and headed for the ground.
Car, Allen and I held the turn ad best we could and when the 109s broke
formation and came at us from 6 o'clock we turned into them hoping to scare
them off by looking like we were ready for a fight, but they didn't scare
worth a damn. (This with no ammo) When Hoenshell, who was leading hollered
on the radio, "Hit the deck Hatch!" I didn't waste any time doing just
that. I rolled my airplane over on its back and split-essed out of there.
One 109 was chasing me with a couple of others going after Hoenshell, but I
don't know where the others went. There was an undercast beneath us and I
didn't have the faintest idea where the mountains were-Yugoslavia is full
of them-but there was no choice at this point. The Me109 was chasing me
and I had nothing left to fight with so I went through that undercast so
fast I didn't even see it. I was hitting close to 600 mph when I came
through into the bottom into a valley between two high ridges. The Lord
sure was with me that day.
-
I kept going. When I was sure I'd lost the 190 I pulled back up over the
overcast and started looking around for Hoenshell, Allen or Morrison,
anybody. I heard Joe hollering for help but my fuel level was getting down
to the point where I couldn't afford any longer to turn around and go back.
I continued on toward Foggia.
When I landed back at home base I was the first member of our squadron to
return from the mission. It was noon and my elapsed time was 6 hours 55
minutes. I don't think I had enough gas to go around again if I hadn't
been able to land on my first approach. There was quite a welcoming
committee at the revetment when I parked the aircraft. Shortly after I
landed Cragmore Blue flight came in, all four of them. They hadn't been in
the fight at all. Much later that evening, long after debriefing and after
we seven survivors had imbibed a bit of the medicinal alcohol that the
flight surgeon had been kind enough to put out, who should come wandering
in but Joe Morrison, my wingman. He had gotten that lace doily across the
Adriatic but had to dump it on the field at Bari."
Sadly Carl Hoenshell was shot down and died of wounds the next day. The
1st FG lost 14 P38s that day and the 82nd lost 9 in that one of a kind
experimental attack on Ploesti with P38 dive bombers
-
Batz:
Im talking about Snapshots and TODs, what are you talking about? I have flown it in the escort role vs Ki-61s in Snaps and against 190s and 109s in TODs, as well as the CT setups. I like it fine. Maybe thats just me .
Yes, they had P-38Ls in Europe.
Im just mentioning that the Ki-84, if the IJ had one in AH might be a match.
As for the dates of certain 109s and 190s, ya ok, so what? I didnt comment on it. I already stated the LW a/c were a match in performance.
Say what you want about it, the P-51 was not in service in 1942-late 43, and the P-38 was. It was eventually tasked with ground attack, along with the P-47, because the USAAF needed that role filled, and the P-51 was the better all round escort fighter.
As for losses, who said it didnt take losses? it was involved in some serious action, of course it took losses.
-
We dont have any plane thats the "historical match" for the p38l. that plane saw service in '44. (except the d9 or maybe the g10)What planes are you talking about are the "historical match up" with p38l?
The dates for the "109s and 190s" we have in ah matter when you say "historic match ups". The p38l in every event I have been in and in every ct set up is a sub for an early version of the p38.
So back to my question....
The P-38L in AH makes a fine escort fighter I have found in historical match ups.
What "historical match ups" ? p38l vrs the ah g6?
As for the dates of certain 109s and 190s, ya ok, so what? I didnt comment on it. I already stated the LW a/c were a match in performance.
No, heres what you said
The P-38L in AH makes a fine escort fighter I have found in historical match ups.
Anway back on topic the p38 wasnt a "failure" there were just planes better suited for the job. We need some earlier versions of the p38 in ah especially with the AH2:ToD coming. The pto was better suited for the p38.
-
What the heck are you talking about?
What do you mean "there is no historic match up for the P-38L"?
Piston engined fighters only:
109G-6
109G-10
190A-8
190F-8
190D-9
N1K2
Ki-61
A6M5 (sad but true, blame the IJN)
I do find it a fine escort fighter. If you dont, well, then I guess we just have to differ.
As for the P-38L being a substitute for an earlier version, well, you are just plain wrong. 1944-5 Phillipines we have done, and the P-38L was there, as well as any France/Germany mid 44-1945 setup, its not "subbing" for anything other than itself.
As for your last two sentences, I agree completely. Feeling ok today?, you seem in a spritely mood :)
-
The British ordered their Lightnings without "handed" engines and counter rotating props. This caused several problems with flight characteristics. Further, the U.S. forbid Lockheed to sell Lightnings to the British with turbochargers. That killed performance at altitudes. Engineers at Lockheed told the sales staff to turn down the invitation to bid for the contract with the RAF because of the specifications and the turbochargers. However, the U.S. government in fact actually pressured Lockheed to sell P-38s (then called the Atlanta by Lockheed) to the British, and sales and management of Lockheed, eager to sell anything, willingly followed the desires of the government. The British called the P-38 "Lightning", by the way.
Regarding Spit vs. Lightning mock combat there were TWO incidents and not one.
Tony Levier, Lockheed chief TEST pilot, challenged and British COMBAT pilot. They merged co alt, and the experienced British combat pilot handed Levier his ass. Test pilots only knew what could be done with the plane, not how to fight with it. Levier was there for TWO reasons. The first was to teach the poorly trained pilots how to fly on one engine. The second was to find out what the combat pilots thought the P-38 needed.
John Lowell challenged a British ace to a mock duel, and they merged co alt and co E at 5K. Lowell proceeded to get on the British pilot's tail and could not be shaken, he handed the British pilot his ass, by no small margin. Eventually, the British pilot did a 45 degree Split S and ran like Hell, Lowell follwed, reportedly almost hitting the ground, and broke off as the British pilot ran. There were dozens of witnesses.
Regarding Galland and his opinion of the P-38, John Lowell handed Galland HIS bellybutton too. And Galland engaged with altitude and speed advantages. Read the account in "Top Gun", by CMH winner General Joe Foss. Galland acknowledged the event in front of dozens of witnesses.
Lawrence Blumer shot down 6 German planes in a span of under 15 minutes, his kills are believed to include German ace Rudi Dassau (sp?). Blumer and his unit were also lower and slower than their opponents.
No one ever claimed there was any titanium in P-38s, but they did have a massive stainless steel spar, and were noted for their ability to withstand collisions with other planes and with telephone poles etc.
Yes, a few P-38L-5-Lo Lightnings were deployed to Europe.
The truth is that many missions in the Pacific included altitudes in excess of 25,000 feet in their profile. It's no warmer at 25-30K over Rabaul, than it is at 25-30K over Bremen.
The Merlin would not have been an improvement for the P-38, in fact, high altitude performance would have been significantly REDUCED. Further, the early Merlin P-51 was no more reliable than the Allison in the P-38. And at least you had two of them. Merlins were notorious for cracking heads and dumping their coolant. If the head cracks on a Merlin in a P-51, the engine will sieze within about 5 minutes in most cases. They were also notorious for fouling plugs.
The P-38s overall record in Europe, even with the 8th AF, was 4 to 6 German planes destroyed for every Lightning lost. Hardly a failure.
The biggest problem for the P-38 in Europe, aside from poor pilot training, was the general staff of the 8th AF. The 8th AF as a whole was less than stellar until after Doolittle took over from Spatz, after Spatz had already replaced another poor performer, whose name escapes me. Doolittle's biggest complaint with the P-38 was its need for more maintenance than the P-47 and P-51, and the fact that the Pacific theatre was getting so many P-38s that there were not enough for the 8th AF to get enough. This was because the War Production Board had assigned Lockheed to handle second source production and development of the B-17. Then they assigned Consolidated Vultee to second source production of the P-38. The logic behind this decision is obviously flawed. There was no valid reason to cut Lockheed's capacity to produce P-38s, and then ask a company geared towards the production of bombers and flying boats to produce the most complex fighter of the era. Unfortunately, the combination of poor leadership and management by the 8th AF, the poor training of pilots, and the lack of available P-38s reduced the effectiveness of the P-38 in Europe.
The USAAF and the War Production Board often forced substandard parts on Lockheed and other companies, and also denied them the opportunity to make improvements. Early on, the WPB and the USAAF provided the wrong turbochargers for the P-38. Later, when it was proven that the Hamilton Standard props offered significant performance and reliability gains on the P-38, along with a reduction in maintnenace needs, the WPB refused to allow Lockheed to use them. Further, the poor performance of Consolidated Vultee as a second source for the P-38 (they only produced 113), prevented Lockheed from shutting down production for short periods, and hence running changes could not be made. The P-38 was in such high demand, the WPB would not allow Lockheed to stop production even for a few days.
The later versions of the P-38 (from J-20-Lo on) had solved almost every significant problem the P-38 had. However, most, if not all, of those problems had already been solved by the P-38K, in EARLY 1943. However, again, the WPB refused to allow Lockheed ANY time to stop production to bring the P-38K into production. Note that K comes AFTER J, and in fact the J was ready far earlier than when it entered production. The J should have begin production in late 1942, and the K should have been in production by April of 1943 at the latest. However, the J was just barely approaching production.
The P-38 should have entered service with the 8th AF in August of 1943 at the LATEST, with at least FOUR groups , not ONE, hastily rushed into service in October. They should have been flying the P-38J-10-Lo (at least, if not the K), and not the P-38G and P-38H models. In fact, by mid 1943, or late 1943 at the latest, the P-38 being produced should have been the K model, or an L version that was an improvement on the K. As it was, the K is actually superior in performance to even the L-10-Lo model. And further upgrades available at the time the K SHOULD have been in production would have been even better props.
Regarding the complexity of flying the P-38, as far back as EARLY 1943, Lockheed had made several improvements.
The first was thermostatic control of the doors for the oil coolers, the intercoolers, and the radiators. Because pilots were poorly trained, they were flying the P-38 in cruise conditions with the oil cooler doors open, the throttles set to full rich, and the radiators set for near maximum cooling. This caused the P-38 to: foul plugs, have runaway turbochargers (because the turbo is controlled by oil, and the cold oil congealed in the regulators), stumble and lose power on throttle application, detonate, burn valves, burn excessive fuel, and be unable to respond to pilot input attempting to transition from cruise to combat. Operating the P-38 at the correct temperature solved all of those problems, and even improved cockpit heating.
The second was dive flaps, allowing the P-38 to follow the German planes in dives above 20,000 feet.
The third was a second generator on the #2 engine. The sorry Curtiss Electric props supplied to Lockheed by the USAAF and the WPB, despite vehement protest by Lockheed, overloaded the electrical system of the P-38, one generator was not truly capable of supplying enough power to operate the props and the rest of the electrical equipment.
Fourth was a "combat master control", for lack of a better term. This system allowe the pilot to switch all systems on both engines from cruise operation to combat in one easy motion with one hand.
Fifth was the replacement of the Curtiss Electric props with the Hamiloton Standard hydrostatic high activity paddle prop. Not only was the Hamilton Standard prop more reliable, but it offered significant increases in all areas of performance, tops speed, climb, acceleration, and fuel efficiency
Sixth was the K-14 "no miss um" gun site.
Despite several requests by commanders in the field, who practically BEGGED for them, items 4, 5, and 6 were NEVER allowed on the P-38 due to the WPB and the USAAF.
Regarding the "quality of the opponent and his equipment" arguement comparing the Germans to the Japanese, SEVERAL pilots who flew against BOTH German AND Japanese opponents considered the Japanese to be AT LEAST equal to the Germans. These were experienced veteran combat pilots with kills against BOTH opponents.
The difference in the leadership between the 5th AF in the Pacific under Gen. Kenney vs. the 8th AF under Spatz and his predecessors. Kenney LOVED the P-38 and his "mission", and he instilled confidence in his pilots and his staff regarding the P-38, and did not blame the shortcomings of the 5th AF and its personnel on the P-38. Kenney also continually went stateside and fought to get P-38s. Spatz, and his predecessors, on the other hand, blamed all of their problems on the P-47 at first and then the P-38, despite the fact that the P-38 performed admirably everywhere but under the 8th.
No, the P-38 was not a glowing success in Europe with the 8th AF, but neither was it a failure, nor a pushover for its German opponents, when flown by pilots properly trained and skilled. There were plenty of P-38 aces in Europe, and they didn't all pad their scores with inexperienced and poorly trained Germans either. John Lowell, Jack Ilfrey, Robin Olds, Larry Blumer, and many others did just fine in the P-38 against the best the Luftwaffe had to offer in men and equipment.
-
The history channel had a good show on the p-38.. Their reason for the P-38 not doing good in Europe was because the P-38's sent to England / Europe where without the supercharger which made all the difference in performace vs the LW. Without it they could'nt compete. In the Pacific theater they had the supercharger.
-
How many variants of the g6 were there Squire?
Which variant do we have?
What year did the p38l enter service?
Of those planes you listed which years did they enter service....
The p38l entered service in mid 44, what year did the ah g6 enter service?
What the difference between the g6 we have in ah and later variants of the g6?
You have never seen an event where the p38l was anything but a substitute for an early p38.
The p51d was in service before the p38l.
You can start here and if you need to I can bring most of the snapshots and events and show you where the p38 was included. In each one its there as a sub for an early variant.
U.S.Army:
A-20G ... 5-42
B-17G ... 6-43*
B-26B ... 5-42
C-47A ... 12-41
P-38L ... 7-44
P-40B ... 1-41
P-40E ... 8-41
P-47D-11 ... 1-44?*
P-47D-25 ... 4-44
P-47D-30 ... 10-44
P-51B ... 12-43
P51D ... 5-44?*
U.S.Navy:
F4F-4 ... 41?
FM-2 ... 9-43
F4U-1 ... 10-42
F4U-1D ... 4-44
F4U-1C ... 4-45
F4U-4 ... 4-45
F6F-5 ... 7-44
SBD-5 ... 5-43?*
TBM-3 ... 1-42
British:
Boston MK III ... 5-41
Hurricane Mk I ... 12-37
Hurricane IIC ... 4-41
Hurricane IID ... 6-42
Lancaster III ... 3-42*
Mosquito Mk VI ... 7-43
Seafire IIC ... 10-42
Spitfire Mk IA ... 6-38
Spitfire V ... 4-41
Spitfire Mk IX ... 7-42
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!*
Tempest V ... 5-44
Typhoon ... 6-42*
Russian:
Il-2 Type 3 ... 10-42
La-5FN ... 3-43
La-7 ... 6-44
Yak-9T ... 1-43
Yak-9U ... 3-44
Italian:
C.202 ... 11-41
C.205 ... 1-43
Japanese:
A6M2 ... 7-40
A6M5b ... 3-44!*
D3A-1 ... ?-37!
Ki-61-I-KAIc ... 1-44!
Ki-67 ... 4-44!*
N1K2-J ... 11-44?*
German:
Ar 234B ... 12-44
Bf 109E-4 ... 5-40
Bf 109F-4 ... 6-41
Bf 109G-2 ... 5-42
Bf 109G-6 ... 10-42
Bf 109G-10 ... 3-44
Bf 110C-4b ... 7-40
Bf 110G-2 ... 5-42
Fw 190A-5 ... 3-43
Fw 190A-8 ... 2-44
Fw 190D-9 ... 9-44
Fw 190F-8 ... 3-44?
Ju 88A-4 ... 12-40
Me 262 ... 7-44
Ta 152H ... 2-45
Notes:
*B-17G ... 6-43; The B-17G did enter service in 1943, however the B-17G in AH has the stepped waist guns and improved tail turret of a 1944 B-17G. This shouldn't have too much impact on gameplay though, being mainly limited to the greater range of movement in the tail turret.
*P-47D-11 ... 1-44?; This is based on my recollections of statements made by others in the "Give the P-47D-11 a paddle bladed prop" threads. However, given that the AH P-47D-11 lacks the paddle bladded prop it is a decent approximation of a P-47D-5, which entered service in 3-43.
*P51D ... 5-44?; The P-51D entered production in 2-44, so it clearly did not enter service in 1-44. I have looked and looked for a service entry date or a theatre arrival date for the P-51D, but have not (shockingly so given the aircraft's fame), been able to find even a hind. I am guestimating a 3 month lag between entering production and entering service.
*SBD-5 ... 5-43?; The SBD-5 entered production in 2-43, so like the P-51D I am guestimating a 3 month lag from production to service. I only found this information tonight (of course, I only looked for it tonight ) and have to admit to being somewhat disappointed in HTC about it. The SBD-5 introduced the 1,200hp R-1820-60, which brought with it a noticable performance jump. The SBD-2 and SBD-3 that fought the Battles of Coral Sea and Midway were powered by a 1,000hp engine and the SBD-2 lacked the dual rear gun. At the same time as we have a late SBD, we have an early D3A. The D3A1 is the aircraft that the Japanese used at Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea and Midway, but like the US with the SBD a better version was to be produced in greater quantity. The D3A2 entered production in 8-42 and boosted the top speed of the D3A by 39mph. As it is in AH, the US gets a over boosted aircraft and is in an artificial position of technical superiority, or greater superiority, than they should be.
*Lancaster III ... 3-42; The .50 calibre guns in the AH Lanc's tail mark it as a late war Lancaster, probably 1944. However, that change, particularly in light of its paltry ammunition supply (I'd probably prefer four .303s with 4,000 rounds), shouldn't have too much of an impact on the game. Limiting early access to the Lanc based on the tail turret might be justified.
*Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44!; The Spitfire entered service with 610 Squadron on January 3rd, 1944. 3-44 is the date of the first kill (a Ju88), but it was operational and on patrols prior to that.
*Typhoon ... 6-42; The only significant change, in the context of AH, that I am aware of is the change to a bubble canopy in late 1943. The performance of the Typhoon Mk Ib, so far as I can tell, remained relatively unchanged. The major difference between a 1942 Typhoon and a 1944 Typhoon was in it's reliability, which is a non-issue in AH.
*A6M5b ... 3-44!; The only difference between an A6M5a, which entered service in 1-44, and an A6M5b is the switching of one of the 7.7mm machine guns in the cowling for a 12.7mm machine gun. Substituting the A6M5b for A6M5b is reasonable. The A6M5 entered service in 8-43, but was significantly less pretected than the A6M5b. Nonetheless, this switch is probably still reasonable.
*Ki-67 ... 4-44!; The Ki-67 entered service with the IJA in 4-44. The first IJN usage as a torpedo bomber is in 10-44. Most Ki-67s were built in 1945.
*N1K2-J ... 11-44?; Production began in of the N1K2-J began in 6-44 and I have seen data that claiming that 60 were delivered in 1944. My best source for N1K2 combat entry is 150 miles away from me right now.
Now you tell me what you are talking about?
-
Fighter Aircraft Chronology WWII:
Apr '43 - XF6F-4 delivered (1 built); Seafire III enters production (1100 plus built); M.C. 205 enters
service; Fw 190A-5 enters production; Ki-61-I enters combat in New Guinea; Ki-84 first flight;
P-40L final delivery; YP-61 delivered; F3A-1 (Brewster F4U-1) delivery begins
May '43 - P-39Q delivered (4905 built); P-40N-5 delivered (1100 built); P-51B-1 delivered (1988 built);
XP-63 delivered (2 built); XP-63A delivered (1 built); Re.2005 enters service (29 built); He 219
pre-production deliveries begin; XP-60E first flight
Jun '43 - Yak-3 delivered in limited numbers; G.55 enters service (130 built); Ki-44-III first flight (1,225
Ki-44 built of all models); Fw 190A-6 enters production; first production Tempest V flight;
Tempest II first flight; La-7 first production flight; YP-59A first flight; XP-62 first flight; XP-55
first flight; Ta 154 V1 first flight; He 219A-0 begins operational testing
Jul '43 - He 219A-2 completed
Aug '43 - P-40N-10 delivered (100 built); P-51C delivered (1750 built); YP-61 delivered (13 built); Me
163B first flight; Mosquito NF.XIII first flight; Ki-61-II first flight; A6M5 first flight; Ki-84-Ia
first production flight; J1N1-S begins production; XP-51G first flight
Fall '43 - Ki-96 first flight; Me 328 unpowered flight tests
Sep '43 - P-38J delivered (2970 built); P-40N-15 delivered (377 built); P-40N-20 delivered (1523 built);
FM-2 delivered (4437 built plus 340 Martlet VI); F6F-3N built (229 built); XP-56 first flight;
Me 310 first flight
Oct '43 - P-61A delivered (200 built); P-63A delivered (1725 built); Fairy Firefly enters service; Ki-84
begins service trials; Do 335 V1 first flight; He 219A-2 delivered
Nov '43 - He 219A-1 production deliveries begin; XP-75 first flight; XP-47J first flight; Ta 154A-0 first
flight
Dec '43 - N1K2-J first flight; J2M2 service delivery begins; Ki-44-IIb first flight; XF7F-1 first flight;
Ki-61-II first flight; Ki-64 first flight
early '44 - La-9 first flight
Jan '44 - P-40N-25 delivered (499 built); P-51D-1 delivered (8056 delivered D-1 to D-30); XF6F-2 first
flight (1 delivered); F6F-3E delivered (18 built); Yak-9u first flight; Ki-61-Ic begins production;
XP-80 first flight; XP-67 first flight; Ju 388J (V2) first flight; Spitfire F.MkXIV enters service.
Feb '44 - Mosquito Mk XIII enters service (270 built); XP-51F first flight; XP-72 first flight
Mar '44 - final N1K1 delivery; A6M5a delivery begins; F6F-3 final delivery; F6F-5 first flight; He 219A-5
delivered
Apr '44 - P-40N-30 delivered (500 built); P-47D-25 delivered (6289 built, D-25 to D-40); XF4U-3
delivered (2 built); F6F-5 Þrst þight (7868 built); Tempest enters service (800 plus built); Ki-84
second pre-production run begins; Ki-84-I operational service begins; F7F-1 delivery begins
Spring '44 - Yak-3 enters large scale production; Ju 88G-1 begins production
May '44 - F4U-4X Þrst þight (2 converted); A7M first flight; Me 163B-1 first delivered to Luftwaffe;
Me 262A-0 first delivered for testing; Beaufighter Mk 21 (Australia) first flight; Tempest VI first
flight; J2M5 first flight; J2M5 begins testing; XP-77 first flight; XFG-2 first flight; BV 40 first
flight; Do 335A-0 pre-production delivery begins; Ju 88G-1 begins operational service
Jun '44 - P-38L delivered (3923 built); N1K2-J enters production; XP-58 first flight; Me 262A service with
first experimental combat unit (EK 262); P1Y1-S night fighter conversions begin; Ki-102a first
flight (15 delivered); N1K2-J begins production; YP-60E first flight; XP-80A first flight; XFR-1
first flight (piston engine only); F3A-1 final delivery (735 built); Ta 154A-1 first production
flight; La-7 enters service
Jul '44 - P-40N-35 delivered (500 built); P-61B delivered (450 built); XF6F-6 Þrst þight (2 built); Gloster
Meteor Mk I enters service; Ta-152H first flight; D.H. 103 Hornet first flight; Me 163 first combat
vs USAAF
Summer '44 - Yak-3 enters service in quantity; Ki-108 flight trials
Aug '44 - Fw 190D-9 deliveries begin (650-700 built); Ki-109 first flight; XF8F-1 first flight; P-59A first
flight (20 built); P-61B delivery begins (450 built); Ta 154 program cancelled; Me 263A-1
unpowered flight trials
fall '44 - Ki-109 first flight; Do 335A-1 enters production (none delivered before factory captured)
Sep '44 - P-47N delivered (826 built); XF4U-4 delivered (5 built); first Me 262A squadron service (8/ZG
26); last Hurricane deliveries; Ki-46-III-Kai night fighter conversions begin; Ki-61-II production
begins; A6M5c first flight; Fury first flight (Centaurus engine); XP-75A first flight; Do 335A-0
service trials begin
Oct '44 - P-40N-40 delivered (216 built); A7M2 (Sam) first flight (9 prototypes and 1 production model
built); Bf 109K-4 deliveries begin (700 built); pre-production Ta-152H-0's delivered for service
testing; Tempest II first production flight; F7F-1 final delivery (500 built); F7F-2N delivery
begins (65 built) Ki-43-II production ends
Nov '44 - Ki-83 first flight; Ta-152H-1 deliveries begin (34 delivered by years end); A6M6c first prototype
built; Fury first flight (RR Griffon engine); XF8B-1 first flight; P-40N final delivery
Dec '44 - P-47M delivered (130 built); P-63C delivered (1427 built); F4U-4 delivered (2357 built);
Ta-152C-0 flight testing begins; He 162 first flight; M.C.200 final deliveries; Ki-43-IIIa first
flight; Ki-44-III production ends; P-59B first flight; F8F-1 delivery begins
late '44 / early '45 - La-11 first flight
Jan '45 - He 162 service deliveries begin; XFD-1 first flight
Feb '45 - P-38M delivered (75 converted from L); P-51H delivered (555 built); Ki-100-1 first flight (396
built of all types); D.H. 103 Hornet first service delivery; Sea Fury first flight; XP-83 first flight;
XP-81 first flight; XF15C-1 first flight; P-80A delivery begins
Mar '45 - conversion of Ki-61-II to Ki-100 begins; XF8B-1 first delivered (3 built); F7F-3 delivery begins;
FR-1 delivery begins (66 built)
Apr '45 - Ki-87 first flight; Ki-93 first flight; A6M8 prototype completed; navalised D.H. 103 Hornet first
flight; XP-51J first flight; XP-82 first flight
May '45 - P-63E delivered (13 built); Seafire Mk XV entered service (390 built); Ki-100-II entered
production; first production Firefly FR.4; Ki-100-Ib entered production; Ki-100-II first flight
summer '45 - La-11 service delivery begins
Jul '45 - P-61C delivered (41 built); J8M1 first flight (blew up); Ki-106 begins flight trials; XP-47H first
flight
Aug '45 - J7W first flight; Ki-94 first flight; Nakajima Kikka first flight; P-59B service delivery begins (30
built); FM-2 final delivery; F7F-2N final delivery
Sep '45 - Seafire Mk XVII entered service (232 built); last Beaufighter deliveries from UK; final P-47N
delivery
Oct '45 - last Beaufighter deliveries from Australia; P-82B first flight
Nov '45 - final Typhoon deliveries; final F6F-5 delivery
compiled by Gregory W Shaw gwshaw@uswest.net
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26235
-
also you seem not understand what the 190a8s roll was in western europe, the same with the f8 in general.
As I said the only 2 planes that are close would be the d9 and g10. Point to an event in ah where g10 and d9s faced the p38l.
Your idea of "historical match ups" is not accurrate.
You see the point now?
The P-38L in AH makes a fine escort fighter I have found in historical match ups.
I'll ask you again, What historical match ups are you referring to?
The one where its a g6 vrs a p38l?
-
Originally posted by SunKing
The history channel had a good show on the p-38.. Their reason for the P-38 not doing good in Europe was because the P-38's sent to England / Europe where without the supercharger which made all the difference in performace vs the LW. Without it they could'nt compete. In the Pacific theater they had the supercharger.
ALL P-38s had a supercharger (crank driven) on each engine. However, the P-38s sold to the British did not have TURBOCHARGERS (exhaust driven supercharger). Nor did they have counter rotating engines and props. The addition of a turbocharger to each engine was the key to the high altitude performance of the P-38. Also, the P-47 had the same turbocharger as the P-38, and that was why the P-47 had such incredible performance at high altitude.
-
Im not about to research every TOD setup or Snap we ever did but try this one:
http://events.simladder.com/snapshot.php?snapshot_id=45
P-38Ls were used by that group. I flew the Snap twice.
We did a TOD where it was "8th USAAF vs the LW" Germany late 1944, LW had 190Ds, 262s, 109G10s, and the Allies had the P-38L, and P-47D-30, and P-51D as its fighters. I flew a P-38L in that one.
"Reclaiming the Phillipines" Friday TOD as well, there are others. CT setups? several.
So there you go. Im not sure what its supposed to prove claiming that the P-38L was never used in an event besides being a substitute, in the first place, but its incorrect.
Entry dates you list, again, does not address anything I posted, Im not sure what your point is. 109 varients? how many? again, you tell me, Im not sure where you are going with any of that other than you seem pissed about it, me, and everything else.
Regards.
-
By the way, I think Eaker was the predecessor to Spatz, and if I remember correctly, there was one more before Eaker. All three were buddies with Hap Arnold. It was Eaker's predecessor who sent all of his P-38s to North Africa. Despite knowing that only the P-38 had any chance of reaching into Germany on escort duty.
Also, there was a terrible problem with British Petroleum fuel, which was low octane dishwater which dropped its lead out of suspension about the time the P-38 got to Germany.
One last thing. In the Pacific, the 5th AF had a theatre indoctrination manual (written by none other than Major Thomas McGuire) that explained how and why to fly a mission, and how to fight each enemy plane. Despite having a few pilots capable of writing such a manual, like Ilfrey for example, nothing like this was ever done. Yet another failure of the 8th AF to get their feces cohesive.
And add guys like Erv Ethell (4 kills), and Richard Loehnhardt (pilot of "California Cutie", and holder of the record for most missions and hours in a P-38 with zero failures) to the roster of P-38 pilots who could and did get the job done.
-
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
ALL P-38s had a supercharger (crank driven) on each engine. However, the P-38s sold to the British did not have TURBOCHARGERS (exhaust driven supercharger). Nor did they have counter rotating engines and props. The addition of a turbocharger to each engine was the key to the high altitude performance of the P-38. Also, the P-47 had the same turbocharger as the P-38, and that was why the P-47 had such incredible performance at high altitude.
Super charger , turbocharger ra ra ra .. I was close.. :p
-
That snapshot is the same as the ToD (same write up and everything).
There wasnt any escort that I recall.
That snapshot was ki-61s attacking fleets and p38s were cap.
Also in the 8th AF vrs the lw (I flew in that) I didnt see 1 p38l. As a matter of fact my squaddie and I discussed the very fact that finally they could use the p38l. All we saw were jugs and p51s.
This ToD mirrored another that used the same map and planeset but had limited d9s and g10s. The p38l was avail. Again I never saw 1. We flew g6s vrs p51bs.
In the tod "Reclaiming the Philipines" my squad flew p38s but we did no escort.
As for being pissed off.... I dunno what you are talking about.
I checked all the scores I have and in no pac set up did I ever see p38 escorts. So I took your statement to mean ETO. The scores are no longer up for the eto tods so I cant check how many kills or deaths the p38 had. But like I said I didnt see any.
ETO wise though the p38l is mostly put up against the 109g6.
If you say you flew p38ls as an escort in either of the 2 8th AF set ups I will take your word for it but in both of those I never saw any 38s. Most other set ups that had the p38 had it matched with the g6.
-
You can check the logs for the TOD, Im in a P-38L. I never saw a Me 262 that frame myself, despite being quite a few up, that sort of thing is not uncommon.
As for the rest, I will leave it at that then. We both get a bit hot under the collar from time to time, nature of the AH BB I guess . I wasn't looking for a flame war. We debate from time to time, I rather enjoy them.
As for the P-38, it is indeed a major USAAF a/c not to have an early version for, and hopefully one will come along at some point.
Regards.
-
Originally posted by Killjoy2
When the p-38 was introduced to RAF it was greatly poo-pooed.
To demonstrate its ability, the Lockheed training pilot challenged the best RAF ace to a duel. P-38 to spit V (I think).
P-38 cleaned up on the spit. True Story found in "Fork Tailed Devil"
It was Lt. Col. John Lowell (probably the best P-38 pilot in the ETO) in a P-38G vs. a Spitfire Mk XI and the bet was for a few cases of beer. Lowell was supposedly able to out maneuver the Spitfire's maneuvering by using the 'cloverleaf' maneuver.
Ack-Ack
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
One of the books I read (can't recall the title) had mentioned that more than one German fighter pilot, upon seeing P38's escorting Buffs, began basically "licking their chops" knowing that the P38 was an easy kill. Apparently they felt very confident that their 109's and 190's could out perform them.
If any of you have ever played Air Warrior, one of the players was a real World War II pilot, named Earl that flew in the Mediterranian flying P-38s, P-39s and P-47s. I asked him in his opinion how did American planes like the P-38 and P-39 fair againt the Luftwaffe planes and this was his reply. Remember, he's going by his experience of his time in combat against the Luftwaffe.
In most all engagements I am aware of, the P-39, P-38, and P-47 outflew German planes, except the P-39s early in the African campaign. Even then, I believe it was more a matter of tactics of the pilots than the P-39s themselves. Later, our pilots were quite capable of holding their
own.
earl
-
japanese planes and pilots were not the greatest, they had problems with the f4f if thats says something.
-
Originally posted by Frogm4n
japanese planes and pilots were not the greatest, they had problems with the f4f if thats says something.
That could be said of the Army pilots but the Naval pilots were amongst the best of the Japanese pilots.
Ack-Ack