Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on February 10, 2003, 04:30:59 PM
-
Sometimes our media is just a little over the top. Sometimes. And; just a very little. ;)
(http://www.nypost.com/images/front021003.gif)
HOW DARE THE FRENCH FORGET
By STEVE DUNLEAVY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HEROES ALL:
The Post's Steve Dunleavy strolls among U.S. soldiers' graves at the American Cemetery near Omaha Beach over the weekend.
- NYP: Tamara Beckwith
February 10, 2003 -- COLLEVILLE-SUR-MER, France - They stand only 3 feet high, but they're towering mountains of sacrifice.
I'm standing in the American Cemetery. Gray clouds hang low as if in mourning for the nearly 10,000 young Americans buried beneath crosses and Stars of David that stretch as far as the eye can see.
The air is chill, but I feel an unnatural glow of rage - I want to kick the collective butts of France.
These kids died to save the French from a tyrant named Adolf Hitler.
And now, as more American kids are poised to fight and die to save the world from an equally vile tyrant, Saddam Hussein, where are the French?
Hiding. Chickening out. Proclaiming, Vive les wimps!
The French, amazingly, never learned the lesson of what happens to appeasers.
They may not remember - but Caroline Buck does.
"When I look at these graves, it makes me want to cry," Buck, who lives in San Antonio, told me as she dabbed her eyes with a handkerchief.
"My father joined the Merchant Marines during WWII at the age of 17. Those soldiers out there under that ground were just kids. They were here to save France, and if it wasn't for them, the French might have ended up speaking German," she said.
Well, what do you know. They're now speaking the same anti-war language as the Germans - in a European chorus of cowards.
Buck's husband, Ron, an engineer, remembered his father flying over France against the Germans in planes nicknamed "The Black Widows" because they flew at night.
"I think this whole anti-American thing is sad," he said. "I don't know whether it's television or an older generation dying out, but after our soldiers did so much for France, well, look at these graves. Surely they remember."
Sorry. They don't.
I read these names with tears in my eyes and fury in my heart:
"Walter F. Rober, Pvt., 358 Inf., 90 Div., New York, July 13, 1944; Angelo Cauca, Pvt., 8 Inf., 4 Div., New Jersey, June 21, 1944; John Hernandez, Pvt., 8 Inf., 4 Div., Nebraska, June 23, 1944."
These names mean nothing to the French, 91 percent of whom, according to a poll, are against President Bush's plans to make Saddam a dark mark in history.
But then again, the French are against everything, including that curious American habit of showering every day.
But wait a minute.
It seems our brave allies are now putting all their French toast in one basket.
They have a 12,000-man contingent training, they say. And it's equipped with one - count it - one amphibious-assault vessel.
Give me a break.
I know some veterans who would say that if the French are in training, they are training to throw up their arms in surrender.
B. Rice Aston, from Houston, the president-general of the Sons of the American Revolution, was visiting here with fellow members.
As he approached the monument in the cemetery, he said: "Remember what Henry Kissinger said. The French are salamanderly. If you're at the top of the ladder, they sometimes want to shake it for you to fall off."
You walk another hundred yards near hallowed turf: "George Uttering, Pvt., 12 Inf., 4 Div., New York, June 7, 1944; Ramond Carey, 2 Lt., 319, 82 Airborne, New York, July 4, 1944; Ercal W. Netzer, Pfc., 22 Inf., West Virginia, June 7, 1944."
As the sun tries to peek through those mourning clouds, I meet Jessica Silverman, a student from George Washington University, studying here in France. As a college student, she never has been gung-ho for any war.
But Jessica, of Maine, told me, "Nothing has happened to me, but we have been told something that is a little disturbing.
"We have been told that if we face any kind of a threat, we should say we're Canadians, not Americans."
Now isn't that just fine, Americans in France having to pretend they're not Americans.
If they had done that in 1944, the French would have replaced "La Marseillaise" with the Nazi anthem, "Deutchland Uber Alles."
It chills the bone when the French government and so many of its citizens steadfastly try to undermine Bush, even sneer at him, when so many of them were saved by the nation he leads - with the greatest band of brothers on earth.
-
"WE SAVED YOUR tulips AND YOU SHALL KNEEL!!!!!!!"
I think that's the Reader's Digest version.
-
Its always refreshing to see another "You owe us" post.
MiniD
-
Yep.. be nice to see a french 'payback' post too.
-
Doesn't really seem like this can be paid off hangtime. More like something that will forever be held over their heads. Seems that situation would generate more resentment than anything.
MiniD
-
No disagreement there... but you and I know how quick the yellow sheet press can whip the trailer trash into a frenzy.. if France don't get it's collective head yanked outta it's bellybutton pretty quick, the media puppets here will be burning loaves of french bread in the streets..
:)
-
... and then France will be toast???? ;)
-
What a disguisting article.
-
Scenario.. some rich broads poodle bites yah. Unprovoked attack by a ravening little frothing at the mouth poofy goofy lookin thing; and it's behavior is so bizzare you wonder if the damn things got rabies..
do you..
A. Say "it's allright.. don't worry about it. The French make unprovoked attacks on me all the time".
B. Get a ravening dog of your own and go lookin for poodles..
C. Get a much bigger ravening dog called a LAWYER.
In this case.. the Media hopping on the French is the equivelant of 'C'.
'Sic, 'em NYP!!"
-
Originally posted by Dowding
"WE SAVED YOUR tulips AND YOU SHALL KNEEL!!!!!!!"
I think that's the Reader's Digest version.
Maybe the Reader's Digest version is:
"Hey, we've got all the proof a reasonable man would need and it's near certain this stuff is going to find its way into the hands of terrorists that will use it against us and maybe you. too.
We need a bit of political support here... not military, we'll do that... how about helping out, doing the right thing and supporting our action for old time's sake?"
I think that's a bit closer to the "guy in the street" point of view; at least those that favor action.
But I bet you don't like that version of RD. Far easier to use the old "arrogant American" rebuttal, eh?
[disclaimer] At this point I still don't personally see/feel the need for the US to invade Iraq. My view doesn't center on "proof" though; I think the evidence is obviously there.That's another thread.[/disclaimer]
-
The Revolutionary Road (http://www.ctssar.org/revroad/news24.htm)
The Washington-Rochambeau Revolutionary Route -What it is about.
The Washington-Rochambeau Revolutionary Route stretches across Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware, Virginia and on the return trip, Massachusetts. Much of the route is on the original colonial post roads. Therefore abandoned sections of the route are often also the oldest existing stagecoach routes in America.
The route was used by the American Continental Army to deploy troops in more than five military engagements, including the successful battle to drive the Redcoats out of Rhode Island.
That victory made it possible for the French to land an army at Newport, Rhode Island to join us in our fight for American independence. It took a year for the French army to purchase the necessary horses and forage for the military campaign in America. During that time George Washington waited anxiously as our Continental Army dwindled to less than 3,000 troops and America teetered on the brink of bankruptcy and defeat.
When General Jean Baptiste Donatien de Vimeur, Comte de Rochambeau's French Army transported their artillery across the American states to Yorktown, not many people were aware that the hardships of the war and disease were taking their toll. There were French and American graves all along the route.
The route commemorates a Franco-American campaign to immobilize the Redcoats in New York City and lay siege to their main Southern army at Yorktown. A decisive intervention of the French navy, under Admiral de Grasse, drove the British Navy from Chesapeake Bay, and trapped the Redcoats at Yorktown, Virginia. Rochambeau joined forces with General Washington on a forced march to Yorktown. Additional French troops and heavy siege guns were landed near Yorktown to help lay siege to the British enclave. Total French army and navy forces grew to 19,000. As the fall harvest was completed and the news of the march of our French allies spread, the American Army swelled to almost 9,000.
Fifteen Redcoats were to perish for every one American soldier before the British surrendered in that final battle at Yorktown, ending the American Revolutionary War. The French casualties at Yorktown were 50% greater than those of the Americans. The French documents show that more than 2,000 French foot soldiers gave their lives in the fight for American liberty, and if sailors and other support are included, over 4,000 of the French perished at our side. And just as General Eisenhower allowed General DeGaulle to liberate Paris, General Rochambeau declined the sword of Cornwallis and allowed General Washington claim our liberty at Yorktown.
Let us also remember that the American Revolution had many allies, allies from every major European country, of every continent, and of every race. It was the French who coordinated with the Spanish and Dutch and lead that allied and very diverse army and navy under the French flag to help liberate the US. There is no question that we owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to the French, and it is time that we show our gratitude by honoring their sacrifices by making the entire Washington-Rochambeau Revolutionary Route a national historic trail. Britain may have fathered America, but France was the midwife that brought America into life.
Yes, we are having a "moment" with the French now. True, they are notoriously.... well, French.
But will you tar yourself with the same brush by condemning them for "failing to remember"?
-
Next those "journalist" will open the graves to throw us the bones of those dead soldier ?
I admit easily the price payed by those soldier and I've a ENORMOUS respect for the them.
Now should I wave a La Fayette Flag ?
Is that Fair ? I don't think so .
And when real war will start were will be Steve Dunleavy ?
Confortably sit in his climatized office and again he will count the graves of US soldier ... with any remorse ?
I doubt it ....
-
Interesting post Toad, it is easy to forget...I had...
-
Toad do you know a good book about this period in you history ?
I've to say I'm pretty ignorant in extra-european history (I know the basic ... not more)
Toad if you edit your post when I write mine it will be endless :)
-
Straffo,
Were you looking for a in-depth history book or a somewhat entertaining novel that stays very close to the historically correct?
I have just finished Jeff Shaara's Rise to Rebellion which is a historically based novel.
Shaara started out by adding two historical treatments of the American Civil War to his father's Civil War book. His father died and the son continued the work. The Civil War Trilogy by these two consists of Gods and Generals (Now a movie), The Killer Angels (the basis for the mini-series "Gettysburg"), and The Last Full Measure by Michael Shaara and Jeff M. Shaara.
While perhaps not detailed history books, they do make history come to life and give a good appreciation of the major issues and how things happened.
Now Jeff Shaara has published Rise to Rebellion and it's sequel, The Glorious Cause.
Rise to Rebellion is a bit slow going throughout. Shaara takes his time with setting up the reasons for the war, the actions taken to avoid it and the eventual outbreak. The point of view is from major historical characters like Benjamin Franklin, John and Sam Adams, etc. However, I felt I had a good grasp of the preliminaries when I was done and now I'm really looking forward to The Glorious Cause.
I like Shaara. I've read a lot of Civil War non-fiction history in my younger days and I was impressed with his ability to stay very close to fact and still weave an interesting novel around it.
I think I'll feel the same about his treatment of the American Revolution when he's done.
So, on to The Glorious Cause .
-
Just a spelling edit, Straffo.
I HATE spelling errors. Too lazy to type it in Word first though. ;)
-
Thanks for the references Toad
Four spelinge you just hav to think ine Franch end thean translate :D (being a bad typist help too :p)
It will help your post sound strange and harsh ...
-
I think that's a bit closer to the "guy in the street" point of view; at least those that favor action.
If you say so, afterall, you live over there. All I have to go by is the comments made on this board - and they are generally far away from your reasoned response, and closer to my tongue-in-cheek 'RD'.
-
I doubt the posters on this board fairly represent the "average joe on the street" from ANY nation.
Let's face facts; we're a bunch of computer geeky WW2 air combat freaks that get our kicks manipulating pixels. Hard to twist that into "Joe Average" isn't it? ;)
I will admit it twists my knickers when I see stuff about the "Great Satan" posted as if it is Gospel.
I feel I do know my fellow countrymen pretty well, both the remaining "oldsters" that actually fought the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese as well as those of my generation that fought the "Cold War" and even the youngsters that are "in" now. I feel I know our intentions, the intent of the general populace, not the politicians. Politicians are politicians, no matter where you find 'em.
And the idea that we're out for conquest raises my blood pressure. Can't deny it.
As I've said before, History is perhaps the best antidote. We've made our mistakes and screwed things up. But taken all in balance and when compared to other nations that held world hegemony for a time... I think we've done pretty damn well. Not perfect, just pretty darn good.
-
I doubt the posters on this board fairly represent the "average joe on the street" from ANY nation.
I agree. That's what I was saying.
Let's face facts; we're a bunch of computer geeky WW2 air combat freaks that get our kicks manipulating pixels. Hard to twist that into "Joe Average" isn't it? ;)
Speak for yourself geek-boy! I, for one, am in denial. I go snowboarding and watch MTV, fer god's sake!!! :D
I will admit it twists my knickers when I see stuff about the "Great Satan" posted as if it is Gospel.
Fair enough. But I think you ought to realise I make that comment in response to the 'DETH TO AMREEKA' crap that's trawled out when anything remotely critical of the US administration is written. I find them both fairly equal on a scale of idiocy. And that's why I wrote it.
Politicians are politicians, no matter where you find 'em.
I agree, and that's why I don't think I've ever criticized anyone other than politicians. It's a shame that some around here equate particular politicians to their own sense of nationality. Ironically, they'll lambast entire nations but get all huffy with faux-patriotism when one career politico takes some flak.
As I've said before, History is perhaps the best antidote. We've made our mistakes and screwed things up. But taken all in balance and when compared to other nations that held world hegemony for a time... I think we've done pretty damn well. Not perfect, just pretty darn good.
More good than bad has been done, would be a simple summary I think. In the really important situations, a lot more.
-
Originally posted by Dowding
It's a shame that some around here equate particular politicians to their own sense of nationality. Ironically, they'll lambast entire nations but get all huffy with faux-patriotism when one career politico takes some flak.
Politicians and/or policies, I will add.
-
http://www.tabloidbaby.com/Book/Updates/snowplow.htm
-
Dowding & Mr. Toad
I've got the tape measure handy in case this turns into another US/UK dick measuring contest - LOL! :D
-
Originally posted by Dowding
"WE SAVED YOUR tulips AND YOU SHALL KNEEL!!!!!!!"
I think that's the Reader's Digest version.
I thought WW2 was partly about freedom?
So if you use that freedom to make up your own mind does that mean you now shouldn't have been given that freedom in the first place?
Tronsky
-
who was lucky enought to teg his freedom back after WW2? :rolleyes:
-
I would say conditional freedom
-
dowding, from here on out, please hold your posts until you are out of puberty:)
I keep forgetting many of these "enlightened posters" are younger (& dumber) than my first born, puts a whole different perspective on their comments when I remember that fact :)
-
It's a shame that senility has claimed your brain, Eagler, because I'm sure you had a third-rate mind when you were younger. :)
-
So this fella named Dunleavy thinks that if americans were there HELPING to fight off germans from France, it gives the americans right to require french to join in their crusade against Hussein over half a century later...
Sounds bit stupid.
Of course it's not helped at all with these all the time changing priorities of Bush Jr.
For some reason I don't hear so much about "war on terrorism" anymore, now it's about keeping Iraq clear of the weapons of mass destruction and soon it's prolly about liberating the Iraqi people of the tyrant.
So we can ask "Osama who?" and "what war on terrorism?"
and suddenly the french et al should be part of this somewhat confusing crusade of Bush Jr.
Like going to the war without a compass.
-
Originally posted by Toad
The Revolutionary Road (http://www.ctssar.org/revroad/news24.htm)
Yes, we are having a "moment" with the French now. True, they are notoriously.... well, French.
But will you tar yourself with the same brush by condemning them for "failing to remember"?
Yes, all Americans should be thankfull to the French monarchy, and perhaps we should support its reinstatement.
-
Originally posted by Fishu
Of course it's not helped at all with these all the time changing priorities of Bush Jr...
For some reason I don't hear so much about "war on terrorism" anymore, now it's about keeping Iraq clear of the weapons of mass destruction and soon it's prolly about liberating the Iraqi people of the tyrant....
Like going to the war without a compass.
Don't kid yourself.
The war on terrorism continues unabated. However, it is by nature a shadow war. The battles, the victories and the losses will occur mostly in silence. From the enemy side, secrecy is absolutely essential to survival. From our side, secrecy is a weapon used to keep the enemy guessing and on the run.
There's a compass. Just because it isn't shared publicly with all doesn't mean it isn't there.
I spent enough years in Reconnaissance to know that blabbing everything you know all at once undermines your cause.
-
The only thing good about the french are their MAIDS!
:D
-
Beadle,
I have the utmost respect for the entire British population that perservered in the face of incredible adversity during and immediately after WW2.
Those folks are and were amazing. Part of the Greatest Generation, a designation that includes many, many nationalities.
-
Originally posted by Dowding
It's a shame that senility has claimed your brain, Eagler, because I'm sure you had a third-rate mind when you were younger. :)
give me way too much credit there ...
beach, broads and booze was about it back then, not always in that order :)
I'd never of been so anal to be wasting my time posting on some internet bulletin board .. even if they existed back then :)
-
Well I don't have a beach, so I do have a little more time on my hands.
As for you, it must have been terrible to be sat, hundled in the dark, patiently waiting for electricity to be invented. :)
-
Originally posted by Eagler
I'd never of been so anal to be wasting my time posting on some internet bulletin board .. even if they existed back then :)
ROFL!!
-
Originally posted by Fishu
So this fella named Dunleavy thinks that if americans were there HELPING to fight off germans from France, it gives the americans right to require french to join in their crusade against Hussein over half a century later...
Sounds bit stupid.
Of course it's not helped at all with these all the time changing priorities of Bush Jr.
For some reason I don't hear so much about "war on terrorism" anymore, now it's about keeping Iraq clear of the weapons of mass destruction and soon it's prolly about liberating the Iraqi people of the tyrant.
So we can ask "Osama who?" and "what war on terrorism?"
and suddenly the french et al should be part of this somewhat confusing crusade of Bush Jr.
Like going to the war without a compass.
Don't kid yourself Fishu....if you truly believe we have curtailed efforts to rout out terrorists, specificall Osama, then you're unaware of the range of US capabilities.
The big story gets the air time.
-
Originally posted by Dowding
As for you, it must have been terrible to be sat, hundled in the dark, patiently waiting for electricity to be invented. :)
Well... it WAS the late '60's.
We WERE huddled in the dark......
of course, we were huddling with some make love/not war hippie peacenik chicks..... ('tis true; some of my fondest college memories are of a beautiful young well-endowed, sincerely anti-war babe that attempted to persuade me to quite AFROTC through the repeated use of her womanly charms. :) I stayed in ROTC and she kept trying to persuade me).
......and all we needed electricity for was the lava lamp and the high-watt stereo blasting out the best music ever performed...
and we could make do with candles and no music if need be....
Gosh, I LOVED huddling in the DARK!
;)
-
Oh.. almost forgot.. US didn't care much for Adolf, until their interests got hit.
Neither were they interested to escort british supply convoys to UK, even within their own sea borders, other than saving the sailors of torpedoed merchant ships.
so.. why should the french bother to do something for Bush's crusade, until their own arse gets on the fire?
Would they also have then half a century later a right to require US's cooperation in their whatever crusades?
Blame the french all you want, but most of the europe seems to be thinking that the US's crusade against Iraq is hurried up with rather weak reasons and theres no reason for them to bother with it yet.
US always has reasons for wars, just never those which are officially claimed to be the reasons.
Toad,
I don't quite see a war on terrorism in Iraq.
They might claim so.. but I'd say "what war on terrorism?"
and sure they might have their osama and terrorist hunts going on, but what Bush says, counts here...
But Bush has already said the priority is elsewhere....
So go figure.
-
Originally posted by Hangtime
Yep.. be nice to see a french 'payback' post too.
the whole of allied europe is still paying off WWII debts to the US.
-
lol Toad :D
What was her name? Shagwell, Felicity Shagwell? Yeah baby, yeah!