Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Special Events General => Topic started by: jordi on February 11, 2003, 05:56:32 AM
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The Next Historical Scenario
Guadalcanal - Operation Watchtower[/color][/size]
Intro
The island of Tulagi had been occupied by the Japanese during the Battle of the Coral Sea in May, 1942. The Japanese quickly established a seaplane base there. However, in June the Japanese began constructing a full-fledged airbase on the nearby island of Guadalcanal. Allied intelligence actually knew of Japanese intentions in the area shortly before the first Japanese construction units landed. An American response, in the form of the 1st Marine Division, was not long in coming.
For the next four months, the land, sea and air around Guadalcanal would be the unlikely scene of the most bitter and protracted battle between the US and Japan in the Pacific war.
Can you help the US hold Guadalcanal or will you side with the Japanese to WIN the Decisive Battle they have been looking for to crush the US in the Pacific.
The below is pulled from the Web page for the Scenario that can be found at.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mikebowman/Guad/Guad-web.htm
Goals
The Guadalcanal Historical Scenario is designed to recreate to the best of our ability the major events that took place from Aug through Dec 1942.
We will be using most of the areas of combat that AH Allows. Air to Air and Air to Ground Combat , Air to Ship, Ship to Ship and Ship Bombardment of Land targets.
We will have opposing Carrier Fleets attacking each other and supporting other actions.
We will have ship to ship battles in "Iron Bottom Sound"
We will have the vaunted Cactus AF defending Henderson field against the Japanese bombers and fighters.
We will have the Japanese sending the "Tokyo Express" and launching LVT's to resupply vital Japanese Bases on Guadalcanal while keeping the Cactus AF at bay..
The Japanese will have a edge on the number of pilots and planes and ships available. The US forces have to make due with what they have and go toe to toe with a superior equipped force.
REGISTRATION INFORMATION
REGISTRATION DATE - March 29th
Registration will be a first come first serve.
Each Flight will be allowed a MAX Number of pilots allowed. Once a flight is filled no additional pilots will be allowed to sign up for that flight.
Frame Dates [/b]
April 26th ( Saturday )
May 3rd ( Saturday )
May 11th ( Sunday AFTER MOTHERS DAY )
May 18th ( Sunday also )
Start time to be IN THE ARENA will be listed 2:30 PM ET - TAKEOFF at 3:00 PM ET. Each frame will last no more than 2 hours.
This gives us 2 Saturday frames and 2 Sunday Frames. We have the Memorial Day weekend that is forcing us to start a week sooner than we normally would. This also has a smaller impact on TOD's and CAP Events by having just 2 Saturday Frames.
Start time will be listed 2:30 PM ET - TAKEOFF at 3:00 PM ET
CM's and CO's
CM TEAM 3 Headed Monster - Jordi, Skernsk, Bikekill
CO's - to be determined NO LATER than March 1st
Anyone who wants to be considered for a CO Position needs to email me at mikebowman@comcast.net - I will then send you back a questionnaire so we can get a feel for all of the potential candidates.
We will be using a modified SLOT Terrain with new tiles and field layouts and NEW Skins by our Terrain team and other volunteers.
( See pictures in the following Replies )
Fleet / Air power [/color]
Each side gets a CV Fleet and an escort fleet they have to defend.
The Japanese also have a Bombardment Fleet to try to destroy Henderson Field and they have to try to run the Tokyo Express to resupply the army they have on Guadalcanal.
The US also has a Defense Fleet they can use against the Bombardment Fleet or the Tokyo Express.
The US has CV Based planes
VF-5 - F4F-4
VB-3 – SBD-3
VS-3 - SBD-3
VT-8 – TBF
They also have the CACTUS AIR FORCE Based out of Henderson Field.
VMF-121 – F4F-4
VMF-223 – F4F-4
VMF-224 – F4F-4
VMSB-131 – TBF
VMSB-231 - SBD-3
VMSB-232 – SBD-3
Total US Pilots = 148
The Japanese have a slight advantage in the total number of Planes.
The CV based planes are
A6M2
D3A1
B5N2
They also have Land based planes base throughout the Island chains reaching up toward Rabual.
100 – A6m2 from the following Air Groups.
Tainan kokutai
2nd kokutai
251st kokutai
252nd kokutai
253rd kokutai
They also have at their disposal up to 20 bombers from the following groups.
Citose kokutai - Betty Bombers ( substitued with the Ju-88 )
582nd kokutai - D3A1’s
Jokosuka kokutai – B5N2’s
Total Japanese Planes = 192
Plane substitutions
Since we do not have a BETTY and the PEGGY is just too fast and powerful compared to the Betty we are looking at RE-SKINNING a JU88 to substitute for the Betty. This is the only substitution we anticipate using.
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We listen to ALL Comments made by the by the player base. Please keep in mind we may have already discussed many points that may be brought up. Even if we do not reply to each and every question posted we are watching and listening to what you have to say.
Thanks,
CM 3 Headed Monster Team - Jordi, Skernsk, Bikekill
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AH Version of Henderson Field - WTG Terrain guys !
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WTG Terrain guys ! great job i would love to know how you do that stuff
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They told me if I gave out thier secret they would have to kill me.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmphs the word !
I am just glad we have such TALENTED people to work with.
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Wheeee! :)
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This looks fantastic, and I can hardly wait. And WTG on the terrain guys, awesome job.
However
JU 88 for KI 67? Puhlease.
You are seriously telling me that we have a japanese bomber, introduced into the planeset especially for scenarios like this, and we're not going to use it?
Is it faster than the Betty? Oh yes, quite a bit faster. More powerful? Debatable. Betty bombload was 1000KG versus 800 for Peggy. Peggy is armed with 1 20mm and the rest are 12.7s. Most versions of the Betty were armed with 2 7.7mm guns and FOUR 20mm cannon.
And the biggest plus of the Peggy for this scenario? It doesn't look like a Friggin Luftwaffe bomber. Occasionally we have to make some pretty strange substitutions for these scenarios, (who can forget the "dive-vertically-at-500mph-and-release-your-torpedo" TBMs in the midway scenario). Given that you are talking about a relatively small group in the overall plane set, and at worst it might actually make for survivable buff piloting, I'm not sure why we'd want to sacrifice the overall immersion of the thing. If we can deal with a late model 88 in the BOB scenario and those dumb-ass TBMS in the midway scenario, and the substitutions for Russian bombers in the current scenario, we can deal with a faster Japanese buff, surely.
Please reconsider this.
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Originally posted by Taiaha
This looks fantastic, and I can hardly wait. And WTG on the terrain guys, awesome job.
However
Jordi - It tool THIS Long before someone brought this up !
Let me do my best to explain
JU 88 for KI 67? Puhlease.
You are seriously telling me that we have a japanese bomber, introduced into the planeset especially for scenarios like this, and we're not going to use it?
Jordi - The KI-67 is was not available during the time period we are recreating.
Is it faster than the Betty? Oh yes, quite a bit faster. More powerful? Debatable. Betty bombload was 1000KG versus 800 for Peggy. Peggy is armed with 1 20mm and the rest are 12.7s. Most versions of the Betty were armed with 2 7.7mm guns and FOUR 20mm cannon.
Jordi - Yes it is faster - so much so that the F4F will have at best 1 shot at the bomber before it starts eating her dust. We can restrict the bomb load of the Ju88 to come as close to the Betty as allowable. We expect that the lower armament of the Ju88 will make up for its better Tuffness compared to Betty's tendency to catch fire at the drop of a pin. The Speed of hte Ju*8 is much closer to that of the Betty also.
And the biggest plus of the Peggy for this scenario? It doesn't look like a Friggin Luftwaffe bomber. Occasionally we have to make some pretty strange substitutions for these scenarios, (who can forget the "dive-vertically-at-500mph-and-release-your-torpedo" TBMs in the midway scenario). Given that you are talking about a relatively small group in the overall plane set, and at worst it might actually make for survivable buff piloting, I'm not sure why we'd want to sacrifice the overall immersion of the thing. If we can deal with a late model 88 in the BOB scenario and those dumb-ass TBMS in the midway scenario, and the substitutions for Russian bombers in the current scenario, we can deal with a faster Japanese buff, surely.
Jordi - We have out BEST SKINNERS working on making it look LESS likea LW Bomber and MORE Like a IJN Bomber.
We are also waiting to pick the CO's and see what thier take on the changes are also.
Please reconsider this.
We had the same debate in the CM Forums - with the same Pro's and Con's you have brought up.
Mike "DmdJordi" Bowman
AH CM Scenario Staff
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LOL, thanks for the reply, Jordi. And yes, I held off thinking that someone else was bound to complain about this. So, when no one did, I felt it was honour and duty to step up and whine for the silent majority. . . :D
I realize it's not an easy job working the substitutions for these, and you are right that the F4Fs would get just one shot (although effective squad tactics and attacking in waves might make up for this). As a last point I would say, however, that this would not be that dissimilar to the situation that prevailed in the BOB scenario. The vast majority of us poor schleps piloting Hurricanes most of the time had only one pass on the bombers because they were so much faster than the period bombers.
And if you get one shot, all the more incentive to make the most of it!
I'm not worried about the skin, I know it will be great (I have been gobsmacked with some of the stuff that has been produced for the CT recently). But it's just, you know, the principle of the thing!
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Jordi- on 3/29/03, registration begins. Newbie question- how and where does one register? Thanks in advance!
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Originally posted by SLAMMER
Jordi- on 3/29/03, registration begins. Newbie question- how and where does one register? Thanks in advance!
Hi SLAM! :) I will post details of the registration site in plenty of time - just keep an eye on the SE Announcements forum a bit nearer the time! ;)
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Flossy, and thanks! :D
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How many frames to the scenario? Is it a one life per frame event? When you kill a plane, is that plane removed from the enemy's inventory or will they start with a fresh set of planes next frame?
I sure like the scheme we've been using in Niemen.
curly
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Originally posted by AKcurly
How many frames to the scenario?
From the first message in the thread:
Frame Dates
April 26th ( Saturday )
May 3rd ( Saturday )
May 11th ( Sunday AFTER MOTHERS DAY )
May 18th ( Sunday also )
therefore....... 4 frames..... :)
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Originally posted by AKcurly
How many frames to the scenario?
See above.
Is it a one life per frame event?
At this time yes. When some CO's come forward we would like to open a discussion with them and figure most of the details out together. During this discussion I suppose things could change.
When you kill a plane, is that plane removed from the enemy's inventory or will they start with a fresh set of planes next frame?
Again, at this time no. If the fighters at Henderson are all wiped out and were not replaced for the beginning of frame 2 then Henderson is basically lost. However, this is something we have not set in stone.....
I sure like the scheme we've been using in Niemen.
Me too!
curly
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Basicly the same answers Skernks made.
A. 1 Life per frame as a pilot - dead pilots can GUN a bopmber or man Ship Guns ( we have to test the Ship guns to make sure they are not to vs attacking planes ).
B. Not attrition for this scenario. Since there was a limited amount of planes available ( For the US ) if it goes bad for one side they could end up with fewer planes that pilots ! We have come up with other ways to take plane losses into consideration.
C. If we had a larger plane set to choose from we could force grps that lose a lot of planes into a less capable plane - but that is not possible at this time.
I think with the spacing of the forces - CV vs CV Battles, Fleet to Fleet battles, Air to Fleet battles, Air to Ground battles there will be a lot action going on that dead pilots can partake in the frame till the end if they so choose to hang around after they die.
Jordi
How many frames to the scenario? Is it a one life per frame event? When you kill a plane, is that plane removed from the enemy's inventory or will they start with a fresh set of planes next frame?
I sure like the scheme we've been using in Niemen.
curly
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I like the way this one seems to be shaping up. I am pretty sure you could count on VF-17 to take part in it and hopefully in CV op's. ;)
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Originally posted by Reschke
I like the way this one seems to be shaping up. I am pretty sure you could count on VF-17 to take part in it and hopefully in CV op's. ;)
Glad you feel that way !
See you there !
Mike "DmdJordi" Bowman
AH CM Scenario Staff
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Wow, I can't wait jordi. I'm sure I can get VMF-212 to contribute a couple pilots to the cause. :)
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Sounds good....we are getting CO's onboard and getting into the finer details of the event next:D
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If you guys still need a CO for VF-5 let me know. I would be happy to help out there or in any other way as needed.
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Originally posted by Reschke
If you guys still need a CO for VF-5 let me know. I would be happy to help out there or in any other way as needed.
The US CO will be picking who wil lbe the GROUP LEADERS for the US Squadrons under his command.
Once he is selected you need to suck up to him to get the Primo GL spot !
:)
Mike "DmdJordi" Bowman
AH CM Scenario Staff
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Maybe all of us interested in helping out need to bribe the CO's with something they could possibly be interested in like BEER and SCOTCH!!!!! ;)
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Gimme Beer and Scotch and you can be anything you want :)
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Mmmmmmm Beeeeeer! :D
Partial to a good Malt too! ;)
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My first Skin attempt.
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Better than I could do !
Jordi
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If you want to use it ill send you the templates
Grey13
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Thanks for the offer.
We have one of our Terrain / Skin guys working on it as we speak.
Thanks,
Jordi
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everyone can start practice:D :D
here <--------- (http://www.many.fivnet.com/gry/pearl.swf)
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That was actualy kinda fun:)
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the p-51's were overmodelled....
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home....Henderson field :)
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Hmmnn.. I've only just checked in here to see what's next after Niemen. I must admit, I'd rather fly Ki67's as replacement G4Ms and restrict my speed as necessary, than fly Ju88s masquerading as G4Ms. But then.. I'm not sure what I'll be signing up for in this game (honestly!). You can be damned sure that if asked to fly Ki67s at under some particular speed then that's exactly what I would do. Shame that it would seem that sufficient of the rest of the community can't be so trusted (even if its only being trusted to REMEMBER to fly em slow :-} )
Suggestion: ask HTC to add into the game a speed or throttle limiter that can be set seperately for each plane by CMs, for use in scenarios.
Must admit, my main concern wouldn't be the speed of theKi67 as against the G4M, it'd be the rlative toughness of the twi planes. The G4M burst into flames if someone looked at it nastily, almost, never could understand why they bothered arming it with 20mm cannon unless it was simply to bolster crew morale sufficiently that they would fly it without getting too jittery.
Nice pics thus far... looking forward to seeing the terrain when it's released!
Esme
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I have a dumb question ..couldn't the Peggy 's speed be modified
by HT or the CM , that way the faster speed issue could be resolved ? I'd much prefer it over the Ju 88 ..:D
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The CM's can not chagne any FM settings for any of the planes.
I doubt if HT will go in and modify any settings just for a Scenario.
We have what the game offers to work with.
Mike Bowman
AH CM Scenario Staff
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Originally posted by jordi
They also have at their disposal up to 20 bombers from the following groups.
Citose kokutai - Betty Bombers ( substitued with the Ju-88 )
582nd kokutai - D3A1’s
Jokosuka kokutai – B5N2’s
[/B]
Dumb question but I can't figure out what this means. Is Citose kokutai a separate group or which Group(s) get the Ju88s?
Dumb question expanded upon:
It looks like Citose kokutai might be a separate Group but then it says "up to 20 bombers" implying they're not a bomber group at all and making me think they have LVTs as the primary ride. I note LVTs aren't listed anywhere but are referred to several times in the write up at the web page. After two full frames runing troops in Niemen.....
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The IJN Gets 20 ( that number may change ) Bombers to fly from Rabual.
Of those bombers they can be a mix of Betty( Ku88 ) , KATES or VALS. The mix of bomber types is up to the IJN CO.
In the REGISTRATION it wwil probably begiven just one unit name.
Mike Bowman
AH CM Scenario Staff
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Ah rgr Jordi. Thanks.
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Ok before anyone gets up in arms, I'll just get it out of the way up front. No I am not saying that the allies SHOULD get the use of B17's. Because if I say that I know someone going to get their undies in a bunch and spark a huge Ju88 vs. Ki67 debate ALL over again. Soooooooooo with that in mind.
Was any thought given to letting B-17's play a part in the scenario? B-17's did play a part in the Guadalcanal campaign from day 1. Both as bombers and for recon. The obvious problem I see was that these were B-17F's (correct?) not the G which we have in AH, which would give any B-17 we use the benefit of at least the additional firepower in the chin turret, I'm not familiar with performance differences, but I can imagine that the G had better speed?
Anywho was the inclusion of the B-17 considered? and if so was it dropped in favor of historical accuracy? game balance? Thanks Jordi, et al.
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We did not add them in since the bases they were at are not on the map.
From all that I have read they really only hit a few ships at best during the campaign.
So we decided that it was not worth adding them in.
Mike Bowman
AH CM Scenario Staff
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Ok I admit I'm starting to change my opinion on the B-17 issue. I've been reading "Guadalcanal: The Definitive Account of the Landmark Battle" by Richard B. Frank, and the B-17 units in the area did play a role in the campaign. Both as recon and engaged in antishipping sorties. Granted the impact of the B-17 as a ship killer was negligible but I guess I think that shouldn't preclude us from trying in AH. The biggest problem was that the 11th Bomb Group was stationed at Espritu Santo which was about 590 miles south east of Guadalcanal and thus not on the map we're using. But I'm finding out now that at least in small numbers B-17's from that group did land at Henderson. In the book there are records of B-17 lost at Henderson on the ground from shelling and aerial attacks.
So what would the opinion be of B-17's in small numbers maybe a handful, never more than 4 (bombers not formations) or somthing be allowed at Henderson per frame to represent ferrying from Espiritu Santo?
The other problem is that the B-17 we have is the G whereas historically they were stuck with the F model (I think). Near as I can figure the only major change from the F to the G was the addition of chin turret. Could this be surmounted by adding a rule that would require all B-17's to empty the magazine of their chin guns after takeoff?
Anyway just a thought. Think that B-17's could be a valuable tool for the scenario, and that there is some sort of historical precedence for it. :)
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We looked at the B17 and the role it can play and decided that would play a minor role at best and that particular function of scouting would be elimiated due to the fact that the frame is just 2 hrs long and the start area that the IJN Fleets start in is known to the US.
Now if we had the P39/400 or a real Betty . . .
Mike Bowman
AH CM Scenario Staff
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Gotcha Jordi, thanks. :)