Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on February 11, 2003, 08:08:45 PM
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Why don't they want a regime change?
Aside from the obvious oil and arms deals the Iraqi's currently have with the French and Germans, consider this...
Regardless of the outcome, France and Germany will be by default the number 1 preferred suppliers of arms and technology to every extremist aniti-us/uk nation in the middle east.. which is pretty much ALL of them.
Futher.. any oil production and supply losses incurred by Iraq going off the pipelines will be happily suppiled by the other OPEC nations... OPEC nations that will naturally cut off sales to Pro-Western Nato powers.
Looking at this from a financial standpoint, being obstructionist amazinhunks with American anti-terror policy is good buisness.. by French and German standards.
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If you call them Frogs and Krauts you'll catch more.
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oh, chit!
Yer right ra..
editing now.
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Hangtime ur Habu?
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No..just Hang off his meds again.
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Originally posted by Ping
No..just Hang off his meds again.
I'ld like to help him but he wont buy german meds anymore :D
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Why don't they want a regime change?
Aside from the obvious oil and arms deals the Iraqi's currently have with the French and Germans, consider this...
Regardless of the outcome, France and Germany will be by default the number 1 preferred suppliers of arms and technology to every extremist aniti-us/uk nation in the middle east.. which is pretty much ALL of them.
Futher.. any oil production and supply losses incurred by Iraq going off the pipelines will be happily suppiled by the other OPEC nations... OPEC nations that will naturally cut off sales to Pro-Western Nato powers.
Looking at this from a financial standpoint, being obstructionist amazinhunks with American anti-terror policy is good buisness.. by French and German standards.
I’ll hazard a guess here.
Unlike this country France and Germany have been devastated by several wars in the last century. It appears they may have finally learned the painful lesson that differences shouldn’t be resolved by spilling human blood. A lesson that this country has yet to learn.
So, basically we’re not supposed to kill thousands of innocent people for economic gain. It think has to do with something about “Thou shall not kill”. I’m sure I read it somewhere. ;)
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Originally posted by blur
So, basically we’re not supposed to kill thousands of innocent people for economic gain. It think has to do with something about “Thou shall not kill”. I’m sure I read it somewhere. ;)
hey, thats great Blur. Something we can ALL agree on! Well, most of us! (See Extremist Islamic terrorists purchases from a country who's common goal is identical)
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you got your own fanatics rip-short......
Timothy was his name...and just 4 fun he blow half a building just like ina game....
start lookin in your own back yard rip-dip....
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The French and Germans are afraid of what will be found in Iraq labeled "made in France" and "made in Germany"!
I think we will all be in shock by what has been sold by these so called allies to Iraq!
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Originally posted by OZkansas
The French and Germans are afraid of what will be found in Iraq labeled "made in France" and "made in Germany"!
I think we will all be in shock by what has been sold by these so called allies to Iraq!
And made in UK, US, USSR, Syria, Jordan etc ad nasueam.
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Originally posted by OZkansas
The French and Germans are afraid of what will be found in Iraq labeled "made in France" and "made in Germany"!
I think we will all be in shock by what has been sold by these so called allies to Iraq!
Cant be OZkansas cause most chemical and biological weapons came from Mr. Rumsfeld.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
hey, thats great Blur. Something we can ALL agree on! Well, most of us! (See Extremist Islamic terrorists purchases from a country who's common goal is identical)
Rip,
You just don't understand blur's position. It's OK for the terrorists to kill innocent western civilians but it's not OK for the Western countries to kill civilains in the terrorist states......
As if we target civilians......:rolleyes:
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Nice theory Blur. But, France and Germanys position threatens all gains made in the disarmament of Saddam Hussein - and in doing so threaten destabilization of the region by allowing him to re-arm with WMDs.
Iraq has not responded to diplomacy in any form other than gunboat diplomacy. To get UN Inspectors back in there has practically been a gun held to his head. Whether or not there is evidence now of WMDs its clear he has been trying to acquire them.
Because of the attitude of the US, and UK, Iraq was backtracking.
However, France and Germany have sent a clear message to Saddam that the is giving him second thoughts. THat is giving him the balls to reconsider allowing full inspections and disarming.
Funnily enough, the agressive attitude of the US/UK were most likely to lead to it being resolved. As this is all Saddam responds too.
Now the pacifist attitude the French and Germans have thrown into the ring, especially with their screwing up the NATO alliance, is most likely to lead to War.
A unilateral UN resolution threatening Iraq with war was the best chance for peace. Had Iraq seen a unified UN bearing down on it, then I think there was a better chance they would have complied already.
France and Germany are forcing us a long a road to war with their childish attitudes.
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Draw a dateline across the WMD deployment/sale to Iraq.
Make that date 1991.
Now, WHO has been supplying Iraq with the materials for WAR since 1991 in defiance of embargo?
France, Germany, Russia, China.
2 of those nations have access to NATO proceedure, warfighting capabilities, modes and deployment/defense stratigies.
Wake up.. this is not about Lafayette, it ain't about WW1 it ain't about WW2, it ain't about the 80's war on Iran when Iraq was viewed as an ally against a funementalist muslim state that had taken American diplomats as hostages.
This is NOW.
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France and Germany are forcing us a long a road to war with their childish attitudes.
Regardless of their attitude, if there is a war there was nothing France or Germany could have done to prevent it.
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Regardless of their attitude, if there is a war there was nothing France or Germany could have done to prevent it.
Sorry Ra, that ain't the case. Material and political support for Saddam from the Franco-Prussians is REAL.
The noises the French and Germans are making will result in MORE lives lost.. Iraqi and Allied.
But not French or German lives.. oh, no. Instead, they stand to make even MORE money, comming outta this as the military technology and political 'attaboy' folks for every rouge state in the world.
Sometimes, a Spade is a SPADE.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Sorry Ra, that ain't the case. Material and political support for Saddam from the Franco-Prussians is REAL.
The noises the French and Germans are making will result in MORE lives lost.. Iraqi and Allied.
But not French or German lives.. oh, no. Instead, they stand to make even MORE money, comming outta this as the military technology and political 'attaboy' folks for every rouge state in the world.
Sometimes, a Spade is a SPADE.
Hangtime whats ur problem (u must be Habu)?
U think the french and the germans are the only ones interested in MONEY? U think the intetions of the US of A are to democratize the Iraq, to liberate it, to prevent further terrorism??? SILLY!!!
U live in the most plutocracic country of the world. One regime with a psychotic idiot as ur leader and u really think we should follow u blind? SILLY!!!
U really think ur propaganda press provides u with independent objective informations? SILLY!!!
I'm not against war if the UN says go. I'm not with the german and french government if they blockade all or forsake our friends (and yes i count the USA as our friends) but at the moment these countries are doing right cause we have the nuts to do what we think is right (unlike the cheerleaders in Spain for example).
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No Dudel.. I'm not Habu.
I'm worse.
U think the french and the germans are the only ones interested in MONEY? U think the intetions of the US of A are to democratize the Iraq, to liberate it, to prevent further terrorism??? SILLY!!!
Demonstrate that this premise is incorrect? What nations have we conqered, and remained in as dictators? How many times have we got off our tulips and done precisely the opposite of what you infer? Clue.. start with yours.
U live in the most plutocracic country of the world. One regime with a psychotic idiot as ur leader and u really think we should follow u blind? SILLY!!!
frankly.. you may be right about the psychotic idiot part.. I hate the lil monkey. But then again, the last american president I liked got shot. I do support the war on Iraq not because Bush supports it.. but because it's the right thing to do. Looking beyond personalitys and instead focusing on the ISSUE is key.
U really think ur propaganda press provides u with independent objective informations? SILLY!!!
The press did not brief me.. the Secratary Of State did. If you don't believe what Powell laid out at the UN and look objectively at what Saddam represents and come to the same conclusion he did then you are in fact supporting saddam's plan. Who's side are you on?? You want that guy to remain in power, weilding nukes?
I'm not against war if the UN says go. I'm not with the german and french government if they blockade all or forsake our friends (and yes i count the USA as our friends) but at the moment these countries are doing right cause we have the nuts to do what we think is right (unlike the cheerleaders in Spain for example).
Ah. Then you did NOT see Powells presentation at the UN. You read excerpts in YOUR press. And you are parroting YOUR press.
If YOU cannot make a PERSONAL decision on what is RIGHT, and instead HAND OFF YOUR DECISION TO THE UN, then it is YOU that is the media puppet.
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Originally posted by Duedel
... are doing right cause we have the nuts to do what we think is right (unlike the cheerleaders in Spain for example).
I hate to disagree with you Duedel, but I firmly believe the German and French and Russian gov'ts are merely covering their tulips in this thing. They're trying to come out smellin like a rose no matter what happens, but their indecision is gonna come back to haunt them when th smoke clears. I think the USA will plow ahead no matter what the UN and NATO says, and then Germany, France and Russia will "reluctantly" support us, all the while proclaiming how "We" were for peace all along but had no choice because the US couldn't be stopped.:mad:
Whew...did any of that make sense? Oh well, I'm postin it anyway:(
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Draw a dateline across the WMD deployment/sale to Iraq.
Make that date 1991.
Now, WHO has been supplying Iraq with the materials for WAR since 1991 in defiance of embargo?
France, Germany, Russia, China.
UK too.
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UK too.
Really??
What war materials have been suppled to iraq by UK since 1991?
I'm curious... what UK company would sell them arms?
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" slowly he turned "
step by step ...
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Let's see... of all the arab states there is but one that has a democratically elected leader, and we don't like him either.
IIRC, democracy is not something that's generally compatible with Islamic fundamentals.
Maybe we can send Anne over to make 'em all Christians.
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Mr. Powell didnt show nothing new and even if he would have he didnt need to. Why? Cause I think theres enough evidence that Mr. Hussein had and still has chemical weapons and therefore I think he has to cooperate. But I think also there is still a huge possibility to solve this problem without the use of the most disgusting thing human beings can do - war.
BTW IMO I have deap respect for Mr. Powell but overall he is only a puppet for Mr. Bushs interests nothing more.
Furtheron I really dislike how undiplomatic and childish the US government (at first) and the German government (in reaction) are acting. This behavior is disgusting and what really pisses me of is that this behavoir is mirrored on this board.
There once was a really big friendship between ou countries that now takes huge damage. This even leads to threads where u call to boycott german and french products!!! This is distressing.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I'm curious... what UK company would sell them arms?
Cmon Hangtime, that kind of "transactions" doesnt work that way, there are always "legal" intermediator countries with a chain of intermediator companies.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
No Dudel.. I'm not Habu.
I'm worse.
Actually I am just laying low as I seem to attract little padlocks to the side of threads now.
As far the French and German positons go.
I had lots more great information to post on France, examples of how they like to screw their allies by doing things that have no other purpose than to show everyone that they do what they want (regardless or more probably inspite of what others may ask of them).
Inviteing Mugabe to Paris for the sole reason of spiteing Tony Blair who was behind the EU travel ban is but one recent example.
The French President only ran for another term to extend his immunity from prosecution. He will face a criminal investigation when he is steps down from office. He has no ethics.
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wtfg Hangtime :) don't let the french/german/russian hypocrites get away with it. Congress is already starting to think about getting in agains france :) germany, belgium and france (are they a member?) should be kicked squarly out of nato tomorrow. We find out any of their weapons kill americans in this war I wouldn't be apposed to making germany and france what they were just before the Marshal plan. :mad:
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This behavior is disgusting and what really pisses me of is that this behavoir is mirrored on this board.
Then debate FACTS duedel..
FACT.. Your Government, In concert with France is disputing exactly that.. THE FACTS. Show us contradictory EVIDENCE.
ITEM: We have shown FACTS that Saddam is a Terror Sponsor.
ITEM: We have show FACTS that Saddam is developing and is currently DEPLOYING WMD.
How are you going to stop him duedel?
Send him more arms for oil?
Nope.. we'd sure as hell rather not invade Iraq and get more innocent iraqi's and and allied personnel killed. There was a very gawdamned good chance he'd have been overthrown or forced into exile if a UNITED Europe and American force ringed him and said, "Jigs up.. come out with yer hands held high!" .
But, no... your governments decide that Hussein is more credible than Powell and dispute the facts laid out at the UN.. then you toss a wrench into the NATO planning sessions on fortifying the Turkish border. That's freakin stupid. Or your governemnts are hiding something evil there. Like post 1991 evidence of material support in the development of WMD.
Obstructionst Apologists. Not much better than wild pig toejam in my estimation.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Then debate FACTS duedel..
Obstructionst Apologists. Not much better than wild pig toejam in my estimation.
Now you've gone too far Hangtime. There is no need to insult wild pigshit by compairing it to French or German Obstructionists and Apologists....
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What's in it for France and Germany?
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Yeah.. yer right. I just reacted poorly to the insult to the squad.
I mean, fer crissakes, i couldn't let him crawl back under his rock unscathed after implying the FDB's are all screwed up just because i am. (i got in by subterfuge)
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But I think also there is still a huge possibility to solve this problem without the use of the most disgusting thing human beings can do - war.
War has been declared on the USA and the West. You cannot dispute this. The interesting part is that the enemy is no longer confined within borders but can move between them. But any leader that supports the enemy (even trains and provides weapons to them) is the enemy as well. Saddam falls into the category. And for the longest time he has been in violation of his contract of surrender and breaks the agreement of peace.
I think the Germans and French are afraid that when we do succeed and remove Iraq's current governement that we'll learn the true extent of Germany's and France's dealings with Iraq.
And it's not about oil for the USA. We don't currently have an oil shortage that I'm hearing about and in fact a gallon of gasoline does not cost much more than one of those fancy 12 oz bottles of water.
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folks you joking?
the USA helped the Talibans to gain control of Afghanistan against the russkies,
the USA build Osama bin laden, organized him with tactics and weapons,
the USA established even Saddam Hussein ! in Iraq...
...and now blame the germans and french?
sorry, the US is on the right way to make more friends, LOL
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
folks you joking?
the USA helped the Talibans to gain control of Afghanistan against the russkies,
the USA build Osama bin laden, organized him with tactics and weapons,
the USA established even Saddam Hussein ! in Iraq...
...and now blame the germans and french?
sorry, the US is on the right way to make more friends, LOL
Good so step back and let the US go in and clean up the mess ok? Why are you germans trying to block that? You want to blame the US for the mess on one hand and you want to block them from dealing with it on the other.
Listening to that argument gives a whole new meaning to the word Euro-Weenie.
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Same argument that you heard 10 yrs ago.
(In a whiney voice).......Why didn't you guys go all the way to Baghdad?
And now.
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the USA helped the Talibans to gain control of Afghanistan against the russkies,
the USA build Osama bin laden, organized him with tactics and weapons,
the USA established even Saddam Hussein ! in Iraq...
Funny, the USA never recognized the government of the Taliban. Did Germany?
USA did no such thing as establishing Saddam in Iraq. He rose up and finally entrenched his power through murder. As the head of the Secret Police, he finally held a large meeting of all the political officials and started accusing his opponents one by one of treason or another whereupon they were escorted outside of the auditorium and shot.
I'll let someone else get into the Osama thing.
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Mr. Powell didn`t impress the UN all that much with his supposed-to-be proofs for Iraqi "weapons of mass destruction"...
I`m all for taking Saddam out b/c he`s a despot and a murderer. Why not make that the reason. If it`s got to be "weapons of mass destruction" bring me proof from the inspectors, the UN. If it`s US evidence not gathered under UN control, you might just imprison someone b/c his neighbour said he`s a thief - "Aussage gegen Aussage". Again, I`m all for taking Saddam out.
It`s clear Al Kaeda supports Iraq - or anyone opposed to the US. I highly doubt Iraq supports Al Kaeda, it`s a secular state.
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The image below sums up the US argumentation pretty good ;)
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I`m all for taking Saddam out b/c he`s a despot and a murderer. Why not make that the reason. If it`s got to be "weapons of mass destruction" bring me proof from the inspectors, the UN. If it`s US evidence not gathered under UN control, you might just imprison someone b/c his neighbour said he`s a thief - "Aussage gegen Aussage". Again, I`m all for taking Saddam out.
Dang. Once again, it is NOT the USA's responsibility to prove he has weapons of mass destruction. The terms of cease-fire stipulated Saddam list all his weapons and then show the proof they have been destroyed. There are many weapons that were accounted for that he's never shown proof of having destroyed. By virtue of there being no proof they are destroyed, it must be they are still somewhere serviceable. Which part of this do you not comprehend?
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Originally posted by Duedel
One regime with a psychotic idiot as ur leader and u really think we should follow u blind?
Germany thought so in 1934.
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From Secratary of State Colin Powells address to the UN Feb 5:
How do I know that? How can I say that? Let me give you a closer look. Look at the image on the left. On the left is a close- up of one of the four chemical bunkers. The two arrows indicate the presence of sure signs that the bunkers are storing chemical munitions. The arrow at the top that says security points to a facility that is the signature item for this kind of bunker. Inside that facility are special guards and special equipment to monitor any leakage that might come out of the bunker.
(shows sattelite imagry to UN Council)
The truck you also see is a signature item. It's a decontamination vehicle in case something goes wrong.
This is characteristic of those four bunkers. The special security facility and the decontamination vehicle will be in the area, if not at any one of them or one of the other, it is moving around those four, and it moves as it needed to move, as people are working in the different bunkers.
Now look at the picture on the right. You are now looking at two of those sanitized bunkers. The signature vehicles are gone, the tents are gone, it's been cleaned up, and it was done on the 22nd of December, as the U.N. inspection team is arriving, and you can see the inspection vehicles arriving in the lower portion of the picture on the right.
The bunkers are clean when the inspectors get there. They found nothing.
-- obviously, you did not see the address, He showed proof the Iraqi's have the stuff, and move the stuff immedately prior to the arrival of the Inspectors.
He showed proofs that the Iraqi's are engaged in subterfuge and is not complying with the mandate to SUBMIT TO INSPECTIONS.
The UN did NOT mandate "play cat and mouse with your materials".
More:
At this ballistic missile site, on Nov. 10, we saw a cargo truck preparing to move ballistic missile components. At this biological weapons related facility, on Nov. 25, just two days before inspections resumed, this truck caravan appeared, something we almost never see at this facility, and we monitor it carefully and regularly.
At this ballistic missile facility, again, two days before inspections began, five large cargo trucks appeared along with the truck-mounted crane to move missiles. We saw this kind of house cleaning at close to 30 sites.
Days after this activity, the vehicles and the equipment that I've just highlighted disappear and the site returns to patterns of normalcy. We don't know precisely what Iraq was moving, but the inspectors already knew about these sites, so Iraq knew that they would be coming.
We must ask ourselves: Why would Iraq suddenly move equipment of this nature before inspections if they were anxious to demonstrate what they had or did not have.
Ok devious.. explain this action by the Iraqi's. WTF does it take to convince you? Shall we jump these convoy moves with rangers for you, hold the convoy at gun-point till the freakin UN inspectors get there?
Because, Devious, unless we blow this toejam in place in Iraq and hog-tie the Iraqi chaparones that ride with the UN teams speaking into radios every second, no UN team will be allowed near it.
Here's the deal, folks. If he has no WMD, we go in, it's over fast, saddams out, and the world has one less mass-murdering dictator. If he does have WMD, a lot of folks on both sides in Iraq get creamed, then it's over REAL fast and the world has one less mass-murdering dictator.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Ok devious.. explain this action by the Iraqi's. WTF does it take to convince you? Shall we jump these convoy moves with rangers for you, hold the convoy at gun-point till the freakin UN inspectors get there?
Basically, yes. Either the UN testifies he`s got WMD, or the UN passes a resolution that the time for Saddam to proove he`s got none is over.
Given either, it`s time for UN-sanctironed "serious consequences" a.k.a. war.
Because, Devious, unless we blow this toejam in place in Iraq and hog-tie the Iraqi chaparones that ride with the UN teams speaking into radios every second, no UN team will be allowed near it.
That`s the problem with the IMHO half-assed measures the UN put in place. Like you said, those inspectors should be accompanied by armed forces, reconnaisance aircraft, the works.
The other possibility: US / Great Britain / other supporters of immediate action declare old-fashioned war and just move in. Problem: Russia / China / N Korea will go on squeaking forever, or use that action as an excuse for their own wars.
My favourite outcome would be Saddam winding up with a few extra orifices, courtesy of "noone" a.k.a. the SEALS :mad: No civilian casualities, Problem solved.
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guess they don't understand English:
"You are with us or you are against us"
pretty clear to me - just hope we follow through with the above statement whenever and where ever the sides are drawn..
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Originally posted by milnko
Germany thought so in 1934.
So thats a great compliment.
Decades ago germans followed stupid idiots who just want to make senseless wars.
Today the germans refuse to do so.
I think that this is a really good development of the german people.
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And who were the Germans following when theystarted WWI?
It was'nt Hitler.
So it's not the leader that causes wars. Its the leader that takes advantage of the situation to propagate war. People are people, and I doubt the Germans have evolved in the span of 90 years. They no better or worse than the rest of the world.
There's a reason they are balking on Iraq, and it has nothing to do with past wartime experiences.