Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StSanta on February 13, 2003, 05:14:53 AM
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Was up climbing yesterday. We've put up grips and stuff on the walls of an old German WWII bunker. It hit me that these kind of reminders aren't present in the US - there is very little physical stuff that connects the population with that war.
Here, we have a coupleofroads that were paved with cement-like stuff by the Germans - still hasn't been replaced, seems to last forever. We have bunkers and shelters in many places in the city where I live - some huge, some small. I've even dived one or two; due to sand migration, they're now below the surface of the water. But they're good reminders of Hitler's fortress Europe.
Ever so often, a few shells and grenades are found - I remember finding a 30mm grenade with my brothers as a kid. In the years after the wars, huge stocks of weapons were found - some by kids exploring bunkers.
And those middle aged and older today experienced it firsthand, one way or another. The concrete is a strong reminder of past days.
Those bunkers will probably outlast me.One can say many bad things about the Germans - but they sure know how to build stuff.
Am thinking that Americans, particularly post WWII generations, haven't really got much to remind them of WWII. Sure, some museums with planes and tanks. But that environment isn't really conducive of the atmosphere. German paint 'Achtung ' on a building a few yards away from where you live is.
Perhaps it can help to explain why Europe nowadays is reluctant to go to war. The population has twice gone through the two most devastating wars in human history. It's entrenched in the collective European psyche. The American civilian population at large did not suffer during WWII - things were more scarce, but there weren't armed individuals with totenkopf helmets keeping an eye out for them. There wasn't widespread hunger. Buildings didn't suddenly explode and there wasn't a horde of first Germans and the Russians plundering, raping, murdering.
Many use this as a justification for not going to war against Iraq. I have myself. However.
I am at a loss about France and Germanys position on Iraq and NATO. Sure, we have this past - but should it not serve as a REMINDER? Did we not say 'never again'?
We've seen millions executed in cold blood. We've realized that peace isn't always good, and sometimes, war is necessary for the greater good of the people. Tyrants cannot be talked to; force must be met by force.
We waited too long on dealing with one dictator and felt the consequences most keenly on our bodies. Must we repeat that mistake?
I hope not.
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Eloquently put Hortlund.
See, we CAN agree :)
Svenskjävel :D
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Turkey hasn't asked NATO for assistance, so I don't see why we should need to send help until they ask for it.
Hans Blix makes his latest (and probably final) report on Friday, and there will be a security council vote - wouldn't it make sense to wait until then before passing judgement on French/German intentions? Afterall, it is how they vote that counts, not all this posturing beforehand.
The French have always been tricky customers when it comes to international relations with the US. I don't think this time things are any different, but there will be no veto. No big deal. Germany, for obvious reasons, is staunchly anti-war. Until the Balkan crisis, they hadn't deployed troops outside their border for 50 odd years. It's embedded in the German national character to avoid conflict at all costs - and to be honest I can largely understand that given 20th century history.
Personally, I believe the whole casus belli for this conflict has been confused and changed from either WMD to terrorism so many times, with the US/UK grasping at anything that might support their case that I'm very skeptical about anything they say.
I still don't understand why intelligence about possible weapons sites was not passed onto the inspectors as soon as they went in.
On the other hand, I don't doubt that Saddam has chemical and possibly biological weapons and needs to be confronted. But I also believe that to hold the view that oil has nothing to do with this course of action is patently ridiculous. It may not be the sole reason, but it is a reason. I think the US perhaps views Iraqi oil as an insurance policy against a deterioration in Saudi-US relations or the overthrow of the Saudi government by Islamic extremists.
A post-Saddam Iraq might be a great democratic Western ally if handled right. They have a well educated, technological middle class and are not religiously indoctrinated. I don't believe the 'the only good iraqi is a dead iraqi' crap some people post on this board. But you can lead horse to water, but the horse has to want to drink. Unless a well planned, funded and supported plan is in place in Iraq, we could be creating huge problems for ourselves.
I'd like to see more effort in the middle Eastern peace process. I see the continuing Israeli-Palestinian problems as the biggest recruitment advertisement for Islamic terrorists in the world today. Without an end to it, the militants (on both sides) will always have the popular support they need to continue the blood-bath.
Overall, the 'war on terrorism' cannot be fought with smart bombs, no matter how smart they might be.
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Originally posted by Dowding
It's embedded in the German national character to avoid conflict at all costs
Your eloquence is only surpassed by your knowledge in history Sir.
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I'm was talking in the present tense, and you damn well know it. Talk to any modern German and that soon becomes apparent.
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Dowding, which one in this conversation has a German dad?
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Which one of us was having dinner with a couple of Germans only two days ago?
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Which one posted a funny picture?
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Which one has a punchline to this joke?
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Not me.
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Me neither. Damn.
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Those bunkers will probably outlast me.One can say many bad things about the Germans - but they sure know how to build stuff.
Yeah, I hear they make very efficient ovens.
Perhaps it can help to explain why Europe nowadays is reluctant to go to war. The population has twice gone through the two most devastating wars in human history. It's entrenched in the collective European psyche. The American civilian population at large did not suffer during WWII
Yes, all those empty chairs at the families reunions are easily dismissed.
Of course those young men went all the way to the other side of the planet to lay down their blood and their lives to liberate someone else's home. They sacrificed their lives to liberate countries that almost certainly would have never lifted a finger to help us if the tables were turned.
And for their efforts, filth countries like france spend the next 50 years spitting on their flag and stabbing their country in the back every chance they got.
All things considered, they should have just stayed home on the farm and lived a long life with their families, and let the eruo-trash learn to goose step.
Wab
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breath little wabbit....ya gonna bust a vein.....errr wait a minute.....forget that...go ahead bust a vein:D
from your post AMERICANS won WW1...Americans WON WW2.....Americans won Korea....Vietnam
take a chill pill partner...or smoke a good 1....you need to re-read your History...try books not writin by an American....ya might get a different version.
germans acted like complete bellybutton wipes in the early century.....now there ok....in the late century...americans acted an are still actin like ass-wipes:eek:
now thats just my opinion
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Santa - some good points.
Id love to comment, but I really need a cigarette.
Cant imagine what it would be like to be exploring German bunkers as a child instead of ponds and forests. It must have a profound impact on European children - they can touch whats left, we in the States have books and museums - not quite the same thing.
The only real historical "war" sites are left over from the Revolution and the Civil War. They lose some of there impact because they are "preserved." As you stated, seeing ACHTUNG! on a building or peice of equipment that HASNT been preserved, but simply remains must be a strange feeling.
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We have many physical reminders here from america's worst war . The war isn't over, it never will be . There will allways be slavery and there will allways be a fight to liberate .
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Wabbit - my post is in support of YOUR cause.
Yet you spite me.
Now I begin to switch back to anti-war again.
Dowding, good points, all of which are worth considering. Done so myself.
The fact of the matter however is that if the US does not strike and pull back their forces, Iraq will go back to the same old routine as before - as soon as the yankee soldiers are gone.
It all depends on how the US does it. Bombing the toejame out without taking care of post war issues (like to some degree in Afghanistan) and we'll have big troubles.
Being too impatient, the same. Not listening to world community, also the same.
Still, that dude Saddam has no morals whatsoever. Him gone would be an improvement.
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StSanta, I didn't see his post as spiting you at all. WW2 took a lot from Americans and we do have our reminders. I grant you, the physical reminders may not be to the same extent as what you have but we have a few including Pearl Harbor to a few I know dotted around here in San Diego, California. But I don't think those physical reminders are quite the same as knowing family history and knowing that some uncle, grandparent or brother fought and/or gave his life to that war. My wife's grandfather, a veteran of WW2, passed away last year but his brother died during the war. You dared not buy that man anything that was made in Japan, the feelings were so strong with him and it permeated into the family a little bit. Even 60-years later, we Americans are impacted by that war.
And you do know that the world community was for the apeasement of Hitler as well, right? Anti-war protests were not invented during the 60's, but we had them before WW2. Let's not wait until it is too late anymore, Hortlund's comic image is not out of the realm of possibilities.
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Puke, I think to understand that Santa is not diminishing (correct spelling?) the USA contribute in lifes and whatever.
He is pointing at the fact that here in Europe you can still see macroscopic signs of the wars.
In the buildings, churchs, historical artifacts, trenchs, bunkers, wrecks and so on.
You can find signs everywhere here (and some still working US bomb too ;) ).
You for sure, like us, have memories about relatives dead serving your country, but (Pearl apart), you did'nt have memories of your father, as a child, in the arms of his mother, earing the whistle of the bombs falling each fu...ing day and night for 3-4-5 years of your life, the soldiers... ENEMY soldiers, entering in your house and shooting your brother, or stealing everything, or raping even your little sister, the experience to be starved near to death, and cook your own shoes to taste something in the dirty hot water spilled from the last rain.
This kind of memories are the main difference in the perception of the war between us.
As a people we where there, you where NOT.
To be clear, I am not blaming you for that (for God sake, I am happy for you), but this is a thing you need to consider when judging our positions about war and bombing cities (even with so-called smart bombs).
Notice i did'nt cited the nationality of the above soldiers, can surprise you, but a soldier, in combat zone, and our cities were combat zones, is a big amazinhunk, wichever country gived him birth.
Flame on, if you want, but...
later...
think a little about what i said.
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Originally posted by Suave
We have many physical reminders here from america's worst war . The war isn't over, it never will be . There will allways be slavery and there will allways be a fight to liberate .
Just out of curiosity - what are you refering to here?
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Yet you spite me.
No one is spiting you. I see that you (sorta) get it. Even though some of your statements are annoying. The ones I spite and spit upon are the ungrateful pr!cks who don't get it.
ENEMY soldiers, entering in your house and shooting your brother, or stealing everything, or raping even your little sister,
Reality check Naso. The reason you suffered that is because europe spent FAR to long on its hands and knees like a sweety, grovelling to appease hitler.
Hitler would have been SOOOO much easier to stop in '37 than he was in '43. Think of all that could have been avoided.
Seems europe is too stupid to learn from history.
Or perhaps just too corrupt.
Wab
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
Reality check Naso. The reason you suffered that is because europe spent FAR to long on its hands and knees like a sweety, grovelling to appease hitler.
Hitler would have been SOOOO much easier to stop in '37 than he was in '43. Think of all that could have been avoided.
Seems europe is too stupid to learn from history.
Or perhaps just too corrupt.
Wab
Reality check AKWabbit, you missed the point.
I hope you will understand.... later...
just reread.
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Santa.. Naso..
Thank you.
I'm hoping we can all get thru this. The REAL fight is not in Europe, thank god. We just need your help so we can; as united citizens of this planet, speak to the defense of freedom. If you guys were the Leadership Council of Europe, all of us would be safer.
"Our cause is just. We will prevail."
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
The only real historical "war" sites are left over from the Revolution and the Civil War. They lose some of there impact because they are "preserved."
That is not true, in California I sometimes played at Ft. McArthur as a kid, there used to be giant anti-ship guns there, ready to defend LA Harbor from a Japanese attack.
More recently, we have had to contend with millions of square feet of obsolete aircraft factories, many of which were kept going from WW2 all the way to the end of the cold war. There's a giant toxic plume under the San Diego convention center left over from General Dynamics.
America this last century was largely spared the devastation of war; but when it does happen (like in NYC), it just makes us more angry, not more peaceful.
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Originally posted by Montezuma
but when it does happen (like in NYC)
Sorry, with all due respect for our (yes, OUR) deads in WTC, it has little to do with a real war.
For example, just imagine 1-2 even 3 WTC a day for a year, AND no food, no water, no electricity, no money....
Got the idea?
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Originally posted by Naso
For example, just imagine 1-2 even 3 WTC a day for a year, AND no food, no water, no electricity, no money....
Just imagine, a rain of trident missiles...
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Ok, Montezuma, I understand now your signature.
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"my emotional national psyche scars are more pronounced than yours.."
"are not!!"
"are too!!"
"not!"
"too!"
gentlemen.. we quibble details.
war sucks. we know it, they know it.
lets all hope the fellas playing with the pens and buttons know it.
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.....
- Look That little red button...
- It's nice....
- Wonder if....
- Naa, there's that sign "do not push"...
- Yeah, but it's so.. provoking....
- Anyway maybe the sign it's a lie...
- Yeah, maybe... what do you...
- Dunno... pass me the beer...
- grab it... come on, that button cannot be so terrible...
- well, after all what can it be... pass me the cigarettes...
- here... you know? I push it
- what was?
- maybe a truck up there on the highway
- turn on the TV
- ok, wow, there's that strange movie... what was its name?
- wait wait.... strangesomething.... strange lover..
- Doctor Strangelove!!!
- yeah... you know? I never understood the meaning...
- me neither...
:D
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Naso, you may have misunderstood me. I did agree that Europe has a lot more physical reminders of the war. However, my point was that the deeper scars do not come from concrete buildings, but from loss of family to the war and how it affects that family. My one example was that 50-years later you could not buy a great uncle of mine anything Japenese, his feelings from the war were that strong. These things run deep.
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However, my point was that the deeper scars do not come from concrete buildings, but from loss of family to the war and how it affects that family. My one example was that 50-years later you could not buy a great uncle of mine anything Japenese, his feelings from the war were that strong. These things run deep.
I beg to differ. Do you know the name "Oranienburg" ? It´s a middle-sized town northeast of Berlin. In WW2 it was a center of german ammunitions production and so the US/UK bombed it regularly. In fact so regularly, that today - 60 years after that whole mess - there are still evacuations because of new duds being found with frightening regularity. All in all it is estimated that Germany will not be free from the last remnants of WW2 duds for the next two generations.
Feelings like those you described can only last for the lifetime of those who experienced them. Unfortunately those duds today endanger people who didn´t live when they were dropped on the ammo factories.
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You for sure, like us, have memories about relatives dead serving your country, but (Pearl apart), you did'nt have memories of your father, as a child, in the arms of his mother, earing the whistle of the bombs falling each fu...ing day and night for 3-4-5 years of your life, the soldiers... ENEMY soldiers, entering in your house and shooting your brother, or stealing everything, or raping even your little sister, the experience to be starved near to death, and cook your own shoes to taste something in the dirty hot water spilled from the last rain.
So this was typical in Italy?
So what lead to those ugly events? Chamberlain was wrong and is still wrong.
For example, just imagine 1-2 even 3 WTC a day for a year, AND no food, no water, no electricity, no money....
We have imagined it. And okay, so Europe has been through bombings...do you get a medal or a dunce-cap? Unlike the world of the 30's, we will do something to ensure it doesn't get to this point. Make no mistake, we are at war via proxy. Al Quaida has publicly stated it is at war with us. By our pretending they are not a threat does not make them go away. Many of the fundamentalists are willing to die to bring ruin to the "West" with the USA their prime target. This threat actually includes Europe in the crosshairs. And don't think Saddam wouldn't like to see the West fall, but he knows better than to do it overtly when he can arm and train a few thousand fanaticals. It's time for Europe to wake up. But I can see we are alone in this, Europe would rather put its head in the sand and remind itself of the horrors a madman can bring about and gamble that when it raises its head again that all is safe.
My point wasn't a tit-for-tat about who suffered most, but more about we still have deep wounds here in the USA and that I think Europeans really do not realize this...memories that are very much real and impact our families to this day. So your point about how badly Europe was bombed in WW2 is for or against removing Saddam from power? War is being mobilzed against us, it's a matter of time now.
(I really shouldn't read the O-club at 1 a.m. before going to bed...where's the Disney forum?)
In WW2 it was a center of german ammunitions production and so the US/UK bombed it regularly. In fact so regularly, that today - 60 years after that whole mess - there are still evacuations because of new duds being found with frightening regularity. -Thor
That's a bit different than a concrete reminder, because you are talking about the same thing I'm talking about...that the actual DEATHS that occur in a family from the war have a longer lasting effect than a concrete bunker...and I'd guess (just guessing) most wouldn't even know the origins of many WW2 sites. If anything, I'd think these sites would remind you of the terror of letting a sadistic leader go uncheck. But yes, even here in San Diego (namely, TierraSanta, which was an old WW2 weapons range) kids are digging up unexploded ordnance in the hills. I also pass by Camp Kearny (Miramar Airfield...old Topgun) all the time which was where F4Fs flew and trained for WW2. I could name more. We do have our reminders, but they don't cut as deeply as the stories of loss during the war. Maybe to contrast it another way and to a different time, I literally grew up under "Battle Mountain", a landmark from the Spanish/American War where the troops had to eat their mules to survive...or something like that. I would climb the landmark most days before school, but it didn't impact me what it was because I have no relations that I'm aware of that participated. But I used to see my grandfathers who fought in the war, one of which never got over the war and the loss of his brother. Yes, I was reminded a lot of WW2 in that way and just how ugly it was.
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Alright Wabbit, I misunderstood. Took at as directed at me.
My main points basically were that our civilian population suffered a lot - more than the Americans - and that there are physical reminders of it.
The Germans leading the country today probably had fathers etc that either fought in the war, contributed or died in it. SO bad conscience together with huge loss. And the experience of growing up in a country utterly devastated and destroyed, having to be rebuilt.
But still, that'd be excuses to me in a way. Germanys history would, to me, mean they're MORE obligated to fight such tyranny elsewhere than is the US.
And Frances position on Turkey defense is hard to understand.
I'd prefer an assassination of Saddam to a war. I believe the consequences of a war can be FAR more dire than the average supporter of the war thinks.
Perhaps people think it'll be the same as the first Gulf war. It won't. The political and military situation is very different. So it must be handled correctly, and I am not sure Bush, who is rather uncompromising, has the delicate hands to do so. We'll see though.
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How many of you yanks have been spending summers at your grandparents home in the country?
I'd like to do that too but for some reason I'm not interested to travel to the (now russian) Carelia.
How many of your parents had to hide in the woods when they were evacuated because enemy fighters and bombers were shooting anything they saw moving?
How many of you can still see buildings made of bricks where some of the bricks are little different colour because they were repaired after bombings?
In U.S only soldiers suffered because the war; in europe it was whole population.
just my 5 cents.
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StSanta
if you find a mk108 30mm shell laying around your war relics, send it my way - got a 20mm already :)
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How many of you American guys have diged in your garden to find :
1st some german grenades
2nd a loaded mauser K98
3rd the owner of this junk ?
I've done it in my cousin garden ...
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Damn..can I have the K98 :)
Im starting to collect military rifles, I have an M91/59 so far :D
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Originally posted by straffo
How many of you American guys have diged in your garden to find :
1st some german grenades
2nd a loaded mauser K98
3rd the owner of this junk ?
I've done it in my cousin garden ...
all we find here is crap the builder was too lazy to haul away
that side of it would be cool
the grassed over bomb craters in a field near where we lived in tynemouth was neat to see in 72. I'm sure when they were created during BOB it wouldn't have been so neat
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To americans, all these things are "cool" .. "neat" .. etc. :rolleyes:
I think the point is easily seen.
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Originally posted by Fishu
To americans, all these things are "cool" .. "neat" .. etc. :rolleyes:
I think the point is easily seen.
just like its cool and neat to find Civil War relics in the fields of Va.
doesn't make the conflict "cool & neat" just the relics and the collection/discovery of them ...
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Originally posted by Puke
So this was typical in Italy?
Yes, almost typical (with the exception of the powerfull people and the "cooperators" )
So what lead to those ugly events? Chamberlain was wrong and is still wrong.
We have imagined it. And okay, so Europe has been through bombings...do you get a medal or a dunce-cap? Unlike the world of the 30's, we will do something to ensure it doesn't get to this point. Make no mistake, we are at war via proxy. Al Quaida has publicly stated it is at war with us. By our pretending they are not a threat does not make them go away. Many of the fundamentalists are willing to die to bring ruin to the "West" with the USA their prime target. This threat actually includes Europe in the crosshairs. And don't think Saddam wouldn't like to see the West fall, but he knows better than to do it overtly when he can arm and train a few thousand fanaticals. It's time for Europe to wake up. But I can see we are alone in this, Europe would rather put its head in the sand and remind itself of the horrors a madman can bring about and gamble that when it raises its head again that all is safe.
You are going away, sign that you missed the point, or just needed to follow your rail.
My point wasn't a tit-for-tat about who suffered most, but more about we still have deep wounds here in the USA and that I think Europeans really do not realize this...memories that are very much real and impact our families to this day.
It's not a tit-for tat (nice expression, never heard before :) ), my point was to let you understand the main difference not in quantity, but in quality of the sufferings.
The difference is in the fact that one thing is that your dad leave for war and did'nt come back, and you miss him a lot, or he come back with ugly memories, but you, your mother, your sister, your little brother, stay home with all the conforts, while your father fight the war.
A whole different matter is a war that it's there, out of your door, the bullets enter in your windows, you hide under a table screaming for fear while the world around get crazy and you are 5 years old!
[quotes]
So your point about how badly Europe was bombed in WW2 is for or against removing Saddam from power? War is being mobilzed against us, it's a matter of time now.[/quote]
Oh my God, it's so difficult for an American today to focalyze on a question without throwing in the fediddleing Saddam and OBL??
If you for a moment just listen, i bet you will see the point.
(I really shouldn't read the O-club at 1 a.m. before going to bed...where's the Disney forum?)
That's a bit different than a concrete reminder, because you are talking about the same thing I'm talking about...that the actual DEATHS that occur in a family from the war have a longer lasting effect than a concrete bunker...
It's out of discussion that every single country had this experience of relatives leaving home to fight a war, and lot of them never come back, or come back changed forever.
The example you are posting are good reminders, but not of the same type.
All the reminders US have, even in the pain of their families, are related to a war fought THERE, with the survivors returned HOME
In Europe THERE was HOME
Our parents HOUSE was the frigging BATTLEFIELD!!!
And, please, the point is not who is guilty, or if we have to do the same on Iraq.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
"my emotional national psyche scars are more pronounced than yours.."
"are not!!"
"are too!!"
"not!"
"too!"
gentlemen.. we quibble details.
war sucks. we know it, they know it.
lets all hope the fellas playing with the pens and buttons know it.
I hope you understand that my point was'nt a noodle contest.
Was just pointing the fact that the scars are different, not bigger, different.
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I think this thread has turned into a measurement contest, mostly.
No one wants to have to go to war. Not in Europe, not in the US.
Does anyone think the families of US servicemen already deployed to the Gulf are in the least bit happy about this?
OTOH, while it's true the US countryside hasn't been "under fire" basically since Pearl Harbor, it's also true that no US citizen wants that to happen here now, either.
9/11 removed the idea of "invulnerability" if ever we had it after the facts of the Cold War. People here now know it CAN be just like it was in Europe.
As a result, they'd rather try to solve the problem as far away from here as possible. A normal reaction, don't you think? Especially given the lessons learned by all in Europe in both WW1 & WW2. I speak here both of the "death and destruction" aspect because, after all, Europe basically had to be rebuilt AND of the failure of appeasement and looking the other way.
9/11 convinced the US citzens that they have serious enemies that are not going to go away. So, I believe the national consensus is that it is better to go after them on their own territory than fight them on ours. Sure, there's going to be debate on who to go after and when, but I doubt there's anyone that wants to wait till they show up here with WMD or other weapons..... like airliners.
I'm not surprised at the decision to remove Hussein. At this time, I don't support the action for several reasons but I know that at the end of the day, the World, the Gulf region, the Iraqis and the US will ALL be better off with him out of power.
In the same vein, I know that North Korea will be dealt with next. I think Kim made a huge error and, at the present time, I think the US is handling it superbly.
Kim used his nukes as a ploy to generate more aid and now it has backfired. I think he assumed the US would come running with more food and probably money, eager to dialogue this problem away. Sort of like before.
I think he's suprised we're not even interested in talking to him about it until he puts his nukes away again. Foolishly, he's racheted up the rhetoric to the point that Japan, a pacifist nation in the present world, has threatened force against him. That alone should clue him in, but it hasn't.
He's going to end up with his little ploy before the Security Council without the US saying or doing anything. He'll be arguing with the very people that can't or won't give him what he wants.
So, he'll either have to back down or make good on his threat of war. If he choose war, it will be square in the lap of the UN, not the US.
I'd say "perfect". Because the Japanese are already willing to lead the way on that UN debate. And given their WW2 history in the area, the UN will HAVE to do something.
Like I said, very well done, so far.
All the US needs to do is hold the present course and the NK crisis will resolve without us really getting involved.
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One thing I missed in your thread starter, Santa.
England suffered greatly during WWII. From the Blitz, to the very end when V1's and V2's killed thousands of civilians at random.
I would venture to say England suffered as much as any European nation in WWII, and yet what is their stance?
They are just as steadfast in their belief that the time for inspections is over, and the time for action has come.
So what's different between the experience of the English and the French in WWII, that is coloring their opinions of the current situation.
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Originally posted by Toad
I think....
Pretty reasonable post, and almost completely agreable, for me.
You know?
I place my bet that US will leave to China and maybe Japan the pleasure to eat NK.
Just a feeling, an intuition... we'll see.
Strange... I am agreeing with you...
calling mental care.. ;)
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Originally posted by muckmaw
So what's different between the experience of the English and the French in WWII, that is coloring their opinions of the current situation.
My opinion is that the main difference lay in the national/political/economical interests.
About the people, I have the impression that a great majority in both countries is concerned about the "collateral damage", but in UK the interests push a stance like: "we have good reasons to believe US position, so let's do it" while in France the interests are more in the direction: "it's not enough we need more proves before to bomb a good economic source and left it in the hands of US and UK"
Because the latter will be one of the results, intended or not.
In short, I guess, even in UK it's a very little part of the people that think "Kill'em all, and let God sort 'em".
In US, looking this boards, the opinion distribution seem different, with the latter option more... strong (?).
Not the majority.. I hope.
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I've said t before and I'll say it again. I don't want any of our men fighting and dying, but I'd rather do that than see a mushroom cloud over NYC. I'd rather fight a bloody war myself, than watch my wife and daughter die at the hands of a terrorist supplied by a rogue state.
If the U.S. government says this is what may happen if we do not take action, then I have no choice but to believe and support them. They know more than I do.
So if war must come to protect my family...so be it.
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It is about Oil and China. The US wants an anchor of democracy on the west end of the ex Soviet, Oil rich, under exploited 'Stans..Kurdistan..etc. China is trying to make inroads to the west to influence the 'Stans governments and to avoid that we are going war. It is a forgone conclusion regardless of the UN and Europe.
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Originally posted by Naso
In US, looking this boards, the opinion distribution seem different, with the latter option more... strong (?).
Not the majority.. I hope.
This forum hardly represents the views of average Americans. The demographic for Aces High -- and for those people who play it that also hang out on the forums -- is quite different than the overall American population.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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This forum hardly represents the views of average Americans. The demographic for Aces High -- and for those people who play it that also hang out on the forums -- is quite different than the overall American population.
An interesting assesment... from Hong Kong.
I believe you are in error. On these boards are displayed a very wide range of views.. from lets do it now to no war, to wait and see, to never again, wait for the UN, to nuke 'em all in thier beds, to screw the iraqi's and just nuke the frogs.
I see protest on the BBS, on the streets, and with our far flung memebers from other lands.
Looks healty to me.
I'd guess the consensus is closely split here between waiting for UN support and THEN going in, to just getting it done now, scerw the UN. The latter seems to have the lead, and the majority, UN sanctioned or not sems to agree that we need to get it done; regardless.
How does that differ from the american consensus at large?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
How does that differ from the american consensus at large?
Members of this forum are computer owners, computer literate, game players, generally white collar (though obviously not all), interested enough in the game to devote time to forums about it, etc. I can say for certain that this forum in no way approximates, say, a university town like Chapel Hill where I work and live. And neither really accurately represents America broadly speaking.
In general, I find that the American population on these boards tend toward a conservative or libertarian ideology. Those from abroad differ, of course, but then your baseline is quite different there as well.
I'd be happy to grab the latest National Elections Study dataset and analyze it to get a good sense of the American ideological and partisan makeup as of 2002/2003, but my educated guess is that an accurate poll of this forum would not match it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Members of this forum are computer owners, computer literate, game players, generally white collar (though obviously not all), interested enough in the game to devote time to forums about it, etc.
That son of a squeak just called us a bunch a geeks!
LYNCH HIM!
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grab teh dataset!
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Originally posted by Nath[BDP]
grab teh dataset!
I shall. Poll forthcoming.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I should clarify. Post wasn't intended as a pissing contest but a highlighting of cultural differences and the effects thereof. I think having the battle raging outside yer home when you're a wee lad will affect you more than a war thousands of miles away. In both cases, your daddy is away fighting. In one of the cases, the enemy is right next to you, and even today there are physical things reminding the people alive then of past horrors.
That was basically what I wanted to say. I then went on about maybe stopping Saddam before it grows worse would be a good idea.
Eagler wrote:
'if you find a mk108 30mm shell laying around your war relics, send it my way - got a 20mm already '.
Will do Eagler. I just hope the transport guys won't bounce it around too much, as I won't bother removing the explosives. :D
The authorities concluded it was from a German AAA gun that was stationed there in the past, so it wasn't an MK108 shell methinks.
Denmark is a quite small country, so 99% of the stuff has been found. Ever so often new stuff pops up. It doesn't even get mentioned in newspapers, except if it's a big cache.
But my brothers friend wanted to open the grenade with a screwdriver and hammer. I had the sense to run for my father who, upon arrival, said something I'll never forget
'If you like your life, you might want to put that hammer down.
Heh, funny story today though.