Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FDutchmn on February 14, 2003, 05:00:28 AM
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To the AH Community,
I have been thinking about this request for some time now but even at the risk of being flamed, I decided to post this anyway.
Please avoid abbreviating the words Japanese or Japan as "JAP". I am Japanese, and we use JP or like in the Olympics JPN. We just don't use this term to refer to ourselves. It was a term used during the war to express hatred and as an expression of the enemy, therefore it has a derogatory connotation. On the same note, do we refer our German friends as "KRAUT"?
I know that many people do not used this term as intended negatively, however, lately I am catching phrases like the screenshot attached. While as a fact this may be true, it makes it hard to take it lightly. I am also running into people who use this term to get on people's cases as well. I wish it were one or two people who I can squelch but there seems to be quite a few who use this term intentionally.
On the Warbirds BBS, Japanese planes are referred to as IJ planes, which is short for Imperial Japanese planes.
While I do not wish to limit anybody's freedom, I respectfully request to please refrain from using this term, so there will not be mistake with your intentions. Please use JP, JPN, or IJ.
Thank you.
Osamu Ida
aka
Flying Dutchman
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I honestly think the majority of people who use the word 'Jap' don't mean it in a derogatory way. I can understand your frustration though. I guess it's the Western way to abbreviate countries, e.g. Brit for British, Scot for Scottish, Finn for Finland etc. Luckily some countries already have suitable abbr. like 'Dutch' for instance.
Some people use 'Limey' for British people, I don't particularly like that word but I'm not offended by it.
Anyway, thank you for bringing it to the communities attention! :)
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FD
Wiil work on not useing it here.
No promises but I'll try.
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Well said FD, I agree with that 100%, jap(s) should be placed on the auto monitored "inappropriate word" list.
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What replicant say
Anyway you have my complete attention to that.
I think we (Ita) are lucky that "spaghetti" is not so short to use:D
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This is not meant to be rude at all, just a thought from someone from the Netherlands a.k.a a 'genuine' Flying Dutchman.
If the expression 'JAP' offends you, I'll happily stop using it.
But consider this: Many Dutch people suffered heavily at the hands of the Japanese in WWII and this includes the pilots of the KNIL who fought a desperate battle defending the Dutch East Indies (what is now Indonesia). To the veterans and those who remember, your name in AH might be far more offensive than using the phrase 'JAP'.
To a young person like me WWII is just pages in the history books but there are people out there who relive its horrors every day. I hasten to say that I am fully aware that this applies to a lot of Japanese people as well. I am not prejudiced against Japanese, Germans or people of any nationality, but I think my point is as valid as yours.
And what is my personal opinion that you chose to call yourself flying Dutchman? I don't mind at all...
Other people might. But people who respond like in the example you showed should be banned from AH for life.
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I've thought about this also.
You and I exchange polite greetings online (even though you are flying for the wrong chess piece :D ) and I hope I can offer a reasonable perspective to an emotional issue.
(I say reasonable because the coordinates below my name are for Tokyo. I am not Japanese. I am a caucasian who has lived in Japan for the past 11 years, the U.S. for 29 years and Canada for 9 years. Gawd.... I'm old.)
I don't use the word "Jap." As a matter of fact, this is the first time that I have ever typed it and I feel uncomfortable typing it. I just added quotation marks around it because it makes it easier to look at - as if someone else typed it.
I understand why you posted this and how you feel. I think many repsonses will be that people honestly didn't think that it was offensive. Our beliefs come from what we read, what we see, what we hear and who we know.
Many people think that "Jap" is just a shortened version of Japanese.
Just like "Brit" for British, "Aussie" for Australian, "Swede" for Swedish, "Pole" for Polish and of course... "Tex" for someone from the country of Texas.
There are so many other examples and as much as we would like to believe that people learn about other cultures - the truth is that they don't.
Now... remember how I said that I understand how you feel? I understand because I am called "gaijin." by 99.9% of Japanese.
You and I both know that "Gaijin" is not a shortened form of "Gaikokujin." So why do people call me "Gaijin?" I suspect that you would not call me a "gaijin." Until now... :D
Almost every Japanese will say that they didn't know. Maybe it's the same reason why many will say here, "I didn't know!"
I do have a question though, Mr. Ida:
If Japanese say that they don't know, why do none of the 68 Japanese people I employ, or the hundreds I have interviewed, or the Japanese companies trying to do business with me never use the word "gaijin" in any conversation - without me ever saying a word?
I don't confront people about calling me "gaijin." I can't change the world. But I completely understand your feeling. ;)
[Added: Next time you come to Kanto, I'll buy you a beer. Just don't call me "you-know-what."]:eek:
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Don't get me wrong I'm not saying things to piss people off but my limited mind cannot handle the ever changing list of offending words.
It seems like every time I turn around someone else is trying to strike a word off the list because it some how offends them.
Sorry but I'm not going to change my vocabulary after 40 years of use just because someone in the world finds my limited list of words offensive.
I am not now nor will I ever be PC.
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So... nip would be out too?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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To be completely politicaly correct It's my opinion that we should ban any and all methods of communication within AH for fear that someone who "Doesn't know" may offend someone who "Does know". Until this is achieved it's possible our current situation could lead to unheard of lawsuits and media frenzies by those who are of lesser mental fiber.
Call me whatever name you like, I'm sure it'll make you feel better.
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Well... I'm a little older than most here and don't keep up much on what is currently aceptable plus... I have a huge backlog formerly correct terms like "miss" and "mailman" and "negro" so...
Perhaps one of the more hip and up to date AH posters couls simply have a weekly thread that would list all the new "acceptable" terms and maybe a list of all the terms that were no longer acceptable?
Thanks in advance
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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I find "idiot", and "bastard" offensive, when used in a derogatory sense. I try not to insult the family heritage of others, and would appreciate the same consideration.
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So I can still call you "idiot' and 'bastard' in the descriptive sense?
lazs
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I find "Redneck" offensive since its generally used as a sterotype.
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
To the AH Community,
Please avoid abbreviating the words Japanese or Japan as "JAP". I am Japanese, and we use JP or like in the Olympics JPN. We just don't use this term to refer to ourselves. It was a term used during the war to express hatred and as an expression of the enemy, therefore it has a derogatory connotation. On the same note, do we refer our German friends as "KRAUT"?
Osamu Ida
aka
Flying Dutchman
Unfortunately, 'Jap' is a logical shortening of Japanese. 'Nip' I can understand. It's not like anyone around here would refer to Japanese planes or players as 'Niponese'. Because I realize the possiblity of offending some of the many Japanese players in the game, I have tried to avoid using the term. However, at this point, I see it to be a bit like calling someone from the United States 'Yank' as a means of shortening United States person. Of course, being from Texas....I would find that most offensive :D.
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Bad post.
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Duly noted.
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Well stated.
Gee, I always thought you were Dutch :cool:
DmdMax
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Originally posted by hogenbor
But consider this: Many Dutch people suffered heavily at the hands of the Japanese in WWII and this includes the pilots of the KNIL who fought a desperate battle defending the Dutch East Indies (what is now Indonesia). To the veterans and those who remember, your name in AH might be far more offensive than using the phrase 'JAP'.
Yes, Hogenbor, although I am 35, I am aware of the atrocities my country has caused. I was raised in a country in Southeast Asia where we had invaded during the war. I had an uncle who died in a mental hospital recently, he was confined there because he came home crazy from the army. Currently, we also have lawsuit from the Dutch veterans for their treatment in the POW camps during the time and we still have issues about comfort women who were taken into slavery against their will. I, too, live with what happened in WW2. I feel that it is my duty to remember as much as I can about it, and not repeat this dreadful ordeal that has caused a lot of suffering.
As for my handle, I took this from the sailboat I used to sail. My online gaming started with MegaWars I which is a spaceship game. "Flying Dutchman" is also a literary work and it is also a musical work, and therefore I'd like to think that this concept is reaching those outside of Netherlands as well. I am moved by these works as well, and I'd like to name myself from it if nobody else is using it... that's as far as that one goes.
Originally posted by fullback
I don't confront people about calling me "gaijin." I can't change the world.
Yes, I understand fullback... I am what you call a Kikokushijo, I am a different breed! I know what you are going through too.
Do you know how long it took me to decide whether to make this thread or not? Honestly, I feel very stupid doing this. However, I felt that it was worth an attempt to get this across because some guys were intentionally using it repeatedly in the manner like the screenshot... I could have squealed to HTC that this guy said this, that guy said that.... but... well... what would that make me? A police on channel 1? I am not trying outlaw the term, that is why rather than reporting every single guy who used the term to HTC, I chose to say it here... once and only once. I had my say, if people are willing to listen to my pleas, then that's the best thing I can have, and I carry on.
Well, that's it... I will drop you a line before I go to Tokyo. I will be looking forward to that beer!
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While were at it can you add on the ban list anything that has to do with Luftwobble or any of the sort. It is really ticking me off being called these names. And it is hurting me because I am german. I see all kinds of words slurs acusations you name it. If you can't take being called something then leave. This world has truly turned into a tree hugging liberal arts movement. I have been called just about everything (justification pending on a few of them). People need to grow a little more skin on their back and take it. Call me a redneck southerner as well hell I don't care.
Give people an inch they will run with it for a mile.
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
Do you know how long it took me to decide whether to make this thread or not? Honestly, I feel very stupid doing this.
FD, you did the right thing to voice your (and I'm sure other's) feelings. Reasonable people will take heed, and the unreasonable people aren't worth the time and effort anyway ;). Thank you for handling this issue with tact and integrity, as always, you're a true gentleman :).
Cya up!
Dawg
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Originally posted by Turdboy
I am not now nor will I ever be PC.
Well. How admirable. But this isn't a question of being politically correct, it's a question of rudeness. Do you use four-letter words around kids to prove to their parents that you're not politically correct? Do you mind if someone calls your wife a bimbo slut, just to convince you that he's not going to be one of those mealy-mouthed politically correct college professor types? One of our friends has honestly, and hesitantly, asked us to please not use a term that offends him and other people like him. You have to be either very young (and you're not), or very forgetful (possible) not to recognize that "Jap" is not simply a shortening of "Japanese." There's nothing particularly manly or courageous in making fun of his polite request.
- oldman (geez. sometimes you guys amaze me)
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Originally posted by Dawggus
FD, you did the right thing to voice your (and I'm sure other's) feelings. Reasonable people will take heed, and the unreasonable people aren't worth the time and effort anyway ;). Thank you for handling this issue with tact and integrity, as always, you're a true gentleman :).
Cya up!
Dawg
I fully agree...
FDutchmn, my hat is off to you. Your statements about WWII are very brave indeed. You don't hide or deny anything, you just look the hard truth in the eye and try to live with it as best as you can. This deserves the utmost respect.
Quite frankly I don't know any Japanese people and I do not know much about Japanese culture. And I have to admit that what I do know might be biased.
I took some time to read about the meaning of 'Kikokushijo' though, I think I owed you that much.
If you ever find yourself in The Netherlands I'll happily offer you a beer too.
Best regards,
Ronald Hogenboom
The Netherlands
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I've used "Japan" when referring to anything about Japanese planes...however, I'm still waiting for a politically correct name for Redneck.:mad:
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I'm still waiting for a politically correct name for Redneck.:mad:
Hillbilly?
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How about Neck de Rouge
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a guy driving bmw and a carpeted garage worried about the word "redneck"?
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Well said Flying Dutchman.
Totally agreed.
Btw Replicant, "a finn" is a correct english word when referring to a finnish person, it's no abbreviation AFAIK. ;)
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honestly speaking people who use the word jap normally do NOT mean it in any derogitory fashion...even though to you take it the same way a mexican would take being called gringo they DO not mean it that way...if you take offense ask the person using it to stop being a lazy arse and write out the entire word or use jpn instead
i of course being lucky come from acountry with no abreviations...:cool:
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Hillbilly?
Thar is a Trimenjus difference between a Redneck an' a Hillbilly. ah sh'd know, i b a Hillbilly.
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My associate at work is named Yamamoto and mother survived Hiroshima. Delightfull lady of the "old" world.
We've all been together for years. He doesn't take offense in any way to whats being discussed here.
But if you want to see a rise out of him, with a cold hard stare that's all business..
Call him Korean.
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Originally posted by vorticon
honestly speaking people who use the word jap normally do NOT mean it in any derogitory fashion...even though to you take it the same way a mexican would take being called gringo they DO not mean it that way...if you take offense ask the person using it to stop being a lazy arse and write out the entire word or use jpn instead
i of course being lucky come from acountry with no abreviations...:cool:
I kind of doubt that most Mexicans would be too insulted by being called 'Gringos'. Since the term 'Gringo' is a Mexican insult directed at people from the U.S. :).
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I'm sure there are some who try to use *Jap* as a derogatory term, however I beleive most just use it as an abbreviation. (like myself). There is only so much space in each line you can type.
If someone is using *jap* as a racial slur..film it and send it to HTC.
Whoever said that Mexican's are called Gringo's is wrong...Gringo is a derogatory term used BY Mexican's to describe white people (specifically Americans I think).
FD I commend you for speaking your peace...film those rat bastards and send the films to HTC. Most don't intend you any offense when using the term *Jap*, so try to remember that and not take offense when none is intended :)
Cya up FD!
Elfie
Armageddon Pile-it
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Since the Japanese called us "yanks" during the war, shouldn't "Yank" also be banned?
It works two ways you know :)
J_A_B
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Noted, Osamu Ida-san! Must admit, I had thought it was the intent behind the use of the term that made the difference between use of "Jap" being derogatory rather than just lazy, but there y'go, lots I don't know. And being an ex-WB'er, I'm used to using IJ or IJN or IJA at need.
Very, very well-put post, m'dear!
!
Esme
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Originally posted by Wmaker
Well said Flying Dutchman.
Totally agreed.
Btw Replicant, "a finn" is a correct english word when referring to a finnish person, it's no abbreviation AFAIK. ;)
OIC, U R right :)
Yup, should have used a different word to 'abbreviation', as mentioned by someone else, a simple shortening of the word would have been sufficient! :)
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Originally posted by Batz
a guy driving bmw and a carpeted garage worried about the word "redneck"?
I tried squeezing a gunrack in my rear window, but the guns wouldn't fit :(
Moral of the story:
You can take the redneck out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the redneck.
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I call Germans Krauts, so its OK if I call you Jap.
j/k
I thought you were dutch?
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Let's see, this is a World War II Flight sim (with a little ground action) and we shouldn't use Jap or Kraut or even redneck?
It strikes me that a certain part of the simulation is the vocabulary. That said, AH is a sim community and it is out of place to be rude or abusive.
I for one will use kraut and jap if the situation calls for it. I won't be rude or use words as a racial slur, but as part of the sim.
If this simple use of vocabulary is upsetting to some, well they might be in the wrong place.
Try the UN.
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Call me Ridge, Yank, target, whatever....
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Jap = [Jap]anese. Euro = [Euro]pean. Aussie = [Aus]tralian. Canuck = [Can]adian.
[size=10]Suck it up, princess.[/size]
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don't uderstand how you can take offence to a word like Jap when it's the first sound of your country and peoples name ..
and you should understand the war wasn't that long gone some US families still have very strong feelling about anything to do with the Japanease... as i'm sure some Jap. (ok if you use a period behind it?) families still have strong feelings aginst the U.S.
so for the rest of history the world can't say jap.... what if i start to say japan but meant korea and cut myself off at jap ... am I a racisit ..... words don't hurt people... people hurt people.. if they outlaw Jap then they need to outlaw kruat... then how will I talk about Ruben sandwhiches!!!
The idea is that by being rediculous i show you how stupid being PC is ...'words don't hurt people... people hurt people'.... ie the spirit is everything .. that guy useing jap badly could easily said much worse without so much as one 'bad' word .... and in the end which words are 'bad' my freind ... shall we learn newspeack from 1984?
so is jew anti- semitic or just shorthand .... what about Pol, or maybe Finn..... I think it's silly to worry beyond the ahole's spirit in the screen capture.... what about wop,gook,sap, chinc etc ... bet he could have used tho's words instead.....
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Originally posted by Ridge
Call me Ridge, Yank, target, whatever....
How about "Late for dinner" ??
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How so Ripsno?
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Wow, FDUTCHMAN, I feel a bit of your pain man personally... I know where you are coming from.
In Australia, most people call Japaneese ... Japs. Its a shortened for Japaneese. Its too bad that that it reminds you of the past evil, but thats the way it is. There are worst things to be called.
Trust me!
There are old men and women who still feel the pain of your countries history.
Only you can change the present for future generations. Whats done is done.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I tried squeezing a gunrack in my rear window, but the guns wouldn't fit :(
Moral of the story:
You can take the redneck out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the redneck.
Rip...
You are just a redneck wannabee!!!! A REAL redneck would simply get a bigger rear window :D :D :D
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JAP is how i've spelled it for the longest time and that'just an abbreviation that means nothing racist or derogitory and it wasnt even used in WWII as a dirogitory term really. All it is is an abbriviation your making it sound like JAP is the saMe as Kraut which is totally wrong. The only thing i can think that would be similar to calling JAPS a kraut is calling them a riceball which i wouldn't do.
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
To the AH Community,
I have been thinking about this request for some time now but even at the risk of being flamed, I decided to post this anyway.
While I do not wish to limit anybody's freedom, I respectfully request to please refrain from using this term, so there will not be mistake with your intentions. Please use JP, JPN, or IJ.
Thank you.
Osamu Ida
aka
Flying Dutchman
Absolutely, wilco mate!
Harry James
aka
Saburo Sakai
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Originally posted by AGJV44_Rot 1
Call me a redneck southerner as well hell I don't care.
I love grits
(girls raised in the south)
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Originally posted by poopster
My associate at work is named Yamamoto and mother survived Hiroshima. Delightfull lady of the "old" world.
We've all been together for years. He doesn't take offense in any way to whats being discussed here.
But if you want to see a rise out of him, with a cold hard stare that's all business..
Call him Korean.
Or suggest that Japan was settled about 16,000 years ago by the Koreans.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
How about "Late for dinner" ??
Damn you rip! You know how to hurt a guy!
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0
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Some 'terms' with historical past, never just 'fades away'.
As long as there are historical tragedies and atrocities, hostilities which have existed once before, there is no choice but to refrain from using terms which touch the past feelings in an unpleasant way.
This is a delicate problem, because as suggested in many other posts, what some one feels as 'derogatory' or 'insulting' greatly differs upon many people and their personal relationships with others involved with such terms.
For instance, some African-Americans shamelessly call upon others as "niggah", but if this term would be used from a white person to a black person, it would suddenly gain place as a severe insult. Likewise, some Japanese may not feel much when their personal friends or two, might refer them as a 'Jap', but to many other people, the term would still be greatly insulting.
In the case FD suggested in the pic, the person who comments such things obviously confuses the current timeline with the past, and brings in his own racial prejudice and ill feelings into the game. While nothing in this world, society can be totally neutral, some things people have to watch out all the more to try and keep it so.
Many people with many different backgrounds, many different relationships and histories, enjoy this game. When someone suddenly decides to bring his real world problems into the game, it becomes distasteful, aggressive, hostile and insulting. We've all seen how the "political discussions" can become ugly in the MA.
...
While there is no absolute solution to this, frankly the only alternative to prevent such problems is for the people of the community to stop doing/saying it as a whole. Nobody can interfere with how one thinks, or what can be discussed in private. However, in the open one must be extra careful.
Frankly, as an acronym, logically "JP" is one letter shorter than "Jap", and easier to type, without the political problems hanging around it. In this case, it is pretty evident that nobody's gonna lose any sleep because they can't type the extra "A" between the "J" and the "P" ;)
So if someone speaks out in a request that doesn't harm anyone, and rather prevents other forms of harm and sad occasions from happening inside the MA, hey sure, why not? We should respect that.
"Atrocity", no other country has seen and received like mine. Trust me, every child in our country grows up with those stories... and yet it is fortunate that many people thankfully smart enough to tell the difference between "learning from the past" and "counter-prejudice based on the past".
Many Japanese pilots are good of skill and heart, and are respected members of this community. I've met FD from the day I've started AH, and despite whatever lies between in reality, he's a good Japanese friend to many Rooks. It is unfortnate he would have to go through such distasteful considerations, concerning terms that are involved with racial discriminations.
As a friend, I would also greatly appreciate it if the community would respect FD's request.
to FD
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Well said FD.
Not asking much of people to refrain from using that term. Some people will be selfish in their childish notions though. Nothing you can do about them.
OK, we could ridicule them, but where's the fun in that?
(please see sig for sarcastic significance)
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Yup, the only BMW with a gunrack:)
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Batz
a guy driving bmw and a carpeted garage worried about the word "redneck"?
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You know... it ain't the WORD... it's the MEANING. In the text buffer you show, I too, would take offense. But if it were some radom person that said "I love jap planes" or something similar, I wouldn't. You know, my best frends call me the worst things, indeed, someone calling you "bastard" when you've shot them down, can actually be a compliment :) Words alone should not be insulting, it is the intent behind them that gives them potency.
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The term Redneck came from the union organizing of the 1930's in the coal mines of Kentucky, Tennesee and West Virginia. When the mine owners hired goons to break the strikes, The miners fought back. One of the methods of discerning each other was a red bandana around the neck. So it really isn't derrogatory, some would say it was a compliment. Remember that the next time you feel the need to use the term.
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Hey there Dutchman,
Just my two cents worth here... The screenshot comment you posted was obviously typed by an ignorant fool. WWII is long since over, and although some people might still harbor some animosity towards one race or another, there is no reason for it whatsoever. I'm not a tree hugging liberal who opposes war at all costs. However, I do feel that some people just need to let it go. The japanese are no longer our enemy, and we are no longer theirs.
Just a quick example of my own dilemma here: I am of German descent. My ancestors were born in Germany, and moved to the United States shortly after World War I. My grandmother's brother (my great uncle) who I was very close to, moved to the United States when he was 11 years old. They became citizens of the U.S., and he joined Army Air Corps at age 18. Eventually, he became a B-17 Captain and flew missions from England into Germany. His first mission, and the next 4 missions thereafter were to bomb the town in which he was born in Germany. Although he never admitted it, I'm sure he was torn deeply inside by the fact that he was bombing people who he grew up with. When I asked him about it, he would only say that Hitler had to be stopped at all costs, and he did his small part to stop him.
My point is, I've been called a Kraut due to my last name many times. However, I don't let it bother me because I know the source of it. Some people still harbor hatred, and some people just don't know any better. I, myself, don't refer to the Japanese as Japs because I don't want to appear ignorant. Just remember that some people truly don't understand that it's offensive, and the people who do aren't worth getting upset over.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
however, I'm still waiting for a politically correct name for Redneck.:mad:
According to Dr. Hibbert, I believe "Sons of the Soil" should be close.
Originally posted by Ripsnort
You can take the redneck out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the redneck.
A quick shower might help that.
-Sik
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I got massively flamed when I posted this request about a year ago. I am not Japanese, but I do know the history behind the word. It is not a nice history.
The guys who think that "Jap" is simply a shortened form of "Japanese" need to read more, or live in a more diverse part of the country. I live in a part of the country where "Japs" were taken out of their homes, had their businesses taken from them, and were then forcibly interned.
"Jap" was created for the same purpose that "Chink" and "cupcake" were formed. To use it is just as bad as using the other two. If you wouldn't use "Chink" or "cupcake", there can be no rationalization for using "Jap".
This is not a "PC" issue, it is a politness and respect issue.
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Were you there when they started calling them japs?
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When Japan pays restitution & formally apologizes to all the POW's it enslaved & tortured , then I won't say Jap ever again
because you fine folks will have earned the respect you deserved
But....Until then ....:p
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both jap and nip were shortened forms of words.. If you read otherwise then the guy who wrote it had an agenda.
lazs
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exactly
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Cool.
Then the word "cupcake" is nothing but a form of slang derived from the word "negro" which means "black" in latin?
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Originally posted by Bolt45
When Japan pays restitution & formally apologizes to all the POW's it enslaved & tortured , then I won't say Jap ever again
because you fine folks will have earned the respect you deserved
But....Until then ....:p
I agree
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Hmm, this post has turned from a sincere, non-threatening request for a little consideration into something rather ugly ... too bad :(.
Cya Up!
Dawg
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BFD,
It's a shame, but it always does...
I could post something saying: "The sky is blue". Inevitably, somewhere down the line, antagonistic remarks will be tossed about by someone... LOL
Just the way it goes I guess :-(
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Hiyas FD... how ya doing bud? =o)
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FD,
Such a polite, simple request. Personally, I will honor your request as an AH family member. I am embarrassed for those who have turned this into a giant political debate.
Seriously, folks, it isn't necessary to carry on for 2 pages of posts. You will either respectfully honor his request or not. It's really that simple. If you choose not to, sobeit, but ripping his request apart is hardly the appropriate thing to do. (those who did)
No matter how you look at it, Jap is not considered a polite way to refer to the Japanese people. There is not always a negative connotation behind it, but it never carries a positive one.
I hate PC myself. This is not a PC issue in my HUMBLE opinion. An AH friend has respectfully made a request, and I would expect all of us to say, "No Prob, FD."
Wetrat, respectfully sir, "Suck it up, princess." What the hec kind of post is that??? How rude. Showing your true colors. It would have served you better to say nothing at all. Wonderful quote comes to mind, "Better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove any doubt."
Just my $.02!!
<> Capt. MaNiaCaL
~*81st*~ Krewsaderz
ROOKS!!!!!!!!
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50 some odd years latter grandpa still calls Japanese "Nips" or "Japs". You ask him to stop and hell tell you that how horable Japanese people were to the chines, manchurians and americans they captured. He wont stop saying it. He lived through WW2. Fighting aganst Japan. After useing it on a dayly basis it became the defaut word for Japan to him.
I can and do understand why it bothers you Dutchman. Your a hole other generation of Japanese. Your not at war. Neither are we. But we all hear it so often we forget how much it can hurt. We can all make an effort to stop it. I wil Fully honor your request.
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Being an Aussie, and wholey used to using abreviations and slang as a matter of course in every day life, I find this whole topic a bit trivial.
If the use of the word "Jap" upsets you, one must ask 'Why?'.
Would it be because it shames one to be associated with the actions of ones race/countrymen throughout the last century?
Like it or not, there are thousands of families in Australia, Britain, New Zealand, the United States etc that have in some way lived with the effects of your countrymen's actions 60 odd years ago.
What is it that makes you think that they should care about what words do or do not offend you?
I hate to put it this way, as it is a bit blunt, but have you ever heard the saying "You made your bed, now you must lie in it?"
I wholey respect the way you presented your request FD, and I can even understand where you are coming from with it, however, I dont believe the Japanese people as a whole have the right to make such a request. Their absolute barbarism and disregard for humanity in world war two removed that right.
To look at it from another point of view, I would be dishonouring the memory of my countrymen who suffered at the hands of yours, were I to accept your request, because for me to do so would be to forget the events which you apparently find shameful.
I think you will find that most all the world has forgiven Japan's past, but you cant expect us to ever forget, as to do so would be to invite a repeat performance.
Having said that, I must say though, that it is merely an abreviation, nip, slope, tojo etc, yes, wholey intended to be derogatory, and shouldnt be used, but I think asking us not to use Jap is a bit overboard.
I only wish your whole country was as compassionate and sensitive as you FD, maybe both my grandfathers and several of their brothers, plus a whole big bunch of thier mates would have lived to see thirty, my country would never have been bombed or threatened, and no Aussie would ever use the word Jap.
But that just aint how it is at all Im afraid.
(edited in afterthought) In fact, if my using the word 'Jap' on the internet now shames even one single japanese person enough for them to not forget the actions of their father's and grandfathers, and perhaps feel a tiny little bit of the pain and suffering they caused, causing them to wish it never happened, and perhaps doing that little bit more to ensure it never does again, then it is definately worth my while to start using it a whole lot more often.
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Their absolute barbarism and disregard for humanity in world war two removed that right.
What's the "they" in that sentence got to do with the Japanese pilots playing AH with us in this community?
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Whatever one's own intent, it is free as long as it stays his own.
However as long as it is in the open, and in a mere game, people should try using the common sense where they actually might be able to tell the difference between the disdain towards the Japanese Government's official policies, and the individual Japanese enjoying this game.
If some Japanese pilot in AH would cry out in channel1 something like "denno heika banzai" or something, maybe he'd really deserve to be removed of his right from mere, simple respect.
As long as that isn't the case, and there are people whose feelings can get hurt due to some loose tongues, we should all watch our mouthes.
Otherwise, it is nothing but mere guilt-by-association, which is itself something barbaric.
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Gentlemen and Ladies too...
Kindly allow me to say one last thing on this thread as I feel that it might be necessary after reading some of the responses. I would like to share with you why I play this game in the first place.
As with any other pass time or hobby that I do, I play this game to meet people. It's a social game for me. I work for a foreign subsidiary and have the option to fly to Europe and the United States about 4 or 5 times a year. At each time, I always ask people I know playing this game, "hey, are you available?" and go see them. And it's great... we share the love for aviation and the game... I really a good time. Wait 'til I am higher in rank in the company, so I can schedule the location and the time of the meetings to coincide with the conventions... hehehe...
Anyway, have a thick skin? Yes, I agree. This helps quite a bit. And as already said on this thread, it is all in the context as well. I, too, was letting it go in the beginning, because as I said in my request, I know that many people do not used this term as intended negatively. I got involved when I saw another Japanese player saying "Don't say JAP, Don't say JAP" on channel one. That's all he could say because his English skills was limited. Of course, I got flamed in the process.
Then I ran into guys who used the term in the manner of the screenshot. When confronted, he excused himself for not being able to spell the word Japanese. It became difficult to say whether he truly hated us or just exercising his right of choice on his words. Like Lazs2 mentioned... to quote him "If read otherwise, then the guy who wrote it had an agenda." My country was the aggressor in WW2. If you still hate us, I cannot blame you. If such is the intention, please use the term to express it. The term is best fit for that purpose. If not, please use something else. If you are just trying to tick me off, then I'd rather that you don't use this term. There is a gray area with this term, and in the game, when emotions runs high at times, the risk of misinterpretation of your intentions becomes really high.
Please be reminded that I do not have any authority whatsoever. This is not prohibition. I am not here to prohibit you in anyway, which is the reason why I did not bring this up with HTC. In the end, even if you are doing me or the Japanese players a favor, you will be doing this for yourself. You have the power and the authority to choose your own words. The choice of interpretation is under your control. Please do this out of your own volition.
Yours Truly,
Osamu Ida
aka
Flying Dutchman
PS
Bolt45, Cookie, yes, I understand. What I know is that there is a lawsuit coming up from veterans in California as well. I hope that our government will heed to this lawsuit.
Bluedog, I am very sorry to hear about your relatives. Is there anything that I can do for you in due respect for you and your relatives? As I said on this post, usage of the term as you said in your edit will be appropriate. Please do so if that is your intent. I am not here to prohibit you in anyway. However, I would only ask this of you. Please think twice if you would like to exercise your right to remind us about in the arena every time we meet. If some Japanese player is disrespectful to you, please let me know.
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1) I am terribly offended by politcal correctness. Can we please purge the game of this abomination.
2) Let's all show our concern for Ripsnort and from now on refer to him simply as "Bubba".
Hooligan
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Originally posted by Hooligan
1) I am terribly offended by politcal correctness. Can we please purge the game of this abomination.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT OFFENSE! This is about shame that my country had done. I am on the verge of tears as Im tyoping theis. Please read Bludog/'s edit.
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FD, remember my favorite saying ... "Don't let the B^%&*(@!'s get ya down" :).
Every Country has skeletons in their past and has needlessly wronged others, including my beloved USA. This is not a reflection on you or I as individuals or the current values of our Countries, but the warped decisions of people who could and did exert some influence at those points in time.
This is a game that is designed to be enjoyed by an international community made up of all colors, races and creeds. You have the support of the vast members of Aces High, don't let a vocal few get you down :)
Cya Up!
Dawg
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It's understandable some may still hate a race because of the war. It's at least a better reason than because of the shade of their skin (though I do suspect the motivation). But I don't think it makes much sense to punish the sons of war time Japanese, and their sons.
These terms do not have to be used once we are informed that it hurts others. But even for those who don't care if they hurt others, be aware that you are likely hurting yourself even more. You are judged by these things. Others don't think less of the people you insult, but they do think less of you. Do yourself a favor and at least pretend politeness.
Osamu Ida... do not cry from the works of pitiful people without compassion. Your tears prove your worth, and your countrymen have more to be proud of than they.
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
Bluedog, I am very sorry to hear about your relatives. Is there anything that I can do for you in due respect for you and your relatives? As I said on this post, usage of the term as you said in your edit will be appropriate. Please do so if that is your intent. I am not here to prohibit you in anyway. However, I would only ask this of you. Please think twice if you would like to exercise your right to remind us about in the arena every time we meet. If some Japanese player is disrespectful to you, please let me know.
I must say, in all the time I have played Aces High, I have never been treated with anything but common courtesy, respect and decency by any of the Japanese guys, and some of the best fights I've had have been with or against you guys.
I myself dont, and will not use the term 'Jap' in AH, and please dont take my post to mean I'm a rascist bastard who hates Japanese, I was merely trying to put forward what I see to be a valid, yet opposing point of view regarding this whole thing.
To be perfectly honest, I did at one stage , have a strong dislike of Japanese folks, because of what i had been told all my life about their WWII history.
Guys like FD, and several others over the years, have opened my eyes and taught me that when you come right down to it, we are all very much alike in that we all strive and hope for the same kinds of things, we all want to live, love and be happy, and most of all, that the actions of the past, while they must be remembered, can easily be forgiven.
If my post gave offense to anyone, I apologise, it wasnt meant that way, I just hope that it sheds some light onto why some folks may feel differantly than you do.
FD, I have absolutely no intention other than to have fun, and give a good fight when we meet in the arenas, I certainly wont be 'reminding' you or any other Japanese player of anything.
And as for what you can do for me.......like I said above, you and several other Japanese guys, over the years and without being aware of it, have opened my eyes and made me realise just how ignorant and stupid my earlier opinions where, that, my friend, is more than enough, and I thank you for it.
Blue
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Bluedog
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"jap planes" is an abreviation. "little jap bastards" is meant to be derogatory. Either way it's no big deal unless you are carrying around a lot of guilt. If you are then you need to come to terms with it. It's no fun to tease people who don't get upset.
I am white. Every race has a derogatory term for us. Big deal.. sometimes we earn it and sometimes we don't. I never let it bother me.
On a personal basis... most of this crap never survives a real life encounter. Most prejudice dies only when you work, play or fight side by side. Some things, like the atrocities that some countries committed are so horrible that their ancestpors are tainted.... You can't help but wonder if... if the grandfathers were capable of such inhumanity then...
It takes time. The arrogance and racism of the average jap is no help either so... you guys are doing your part to further the problem.... To be totaly unrepentant is not helping either. Denying the korean and china atrocities.... never apolodgizing... all these things add up to distrust and animosity.
lazs
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Just wondering why some people forget there were Japanese Americans who fought in WWII for the United States. Although most were sent to the European Theatre, they fought side by side with, and died with their fellow Americans. Some of these soldiers even did this while their own families were interred in Japanese camps in the U.S.
Are these veterans and their families supposed to "lie in the bed that Japan made" as someone stated?
Although my great uncle flew B-17's in WWII and bombed the town in which he was born in Germany, I suppose that still makes me a Nazi to some people because I have German blood in my veins.
I just think it's sad to categorize an entire race of people as "barbarians" because of something that happened in WWII.
Tunnel vision is a disease
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How great the debates in america go on about respecting other countries and cultures and ethnicities and all that PC this and that on and on and then there is such an easiness to go off on what's "ok" to joke, since everyone is laughing too. and then call idiots those that say it's wrong. cowardice.
racists.
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hmm?
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If you want I can rattle your cage myself, add some 911 jokes, some mocking of the Bush Ape, or the crummy and laughable education system, or the stupidity of the average citizen, all that...
show some respect before you give lessons to others.
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Maybe I'm thick too but I fail to see why someone would have to feel bad/ pay for something that he has'nt done himself. Buncha rascist avacados.
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Originally posted by lazs2
"jap planes" is an abreviation. "little jap bastards" is meant to be derogatory. Either way it's no big deal unless you are carrying around a lot of guilt. If you are then you need to come to terms with it. It's no fun to tease people who don't get upset.
I am white. Every race has a derogatory term for us. Big deal.. sometimes we earn it and sometimes we don't. I never let it bother me.
On a personal basis... most of this crap never survives a real life encounter. Most prejudice dies only when you work, play or fight side by side. Some things, like the atrocities that some countries committed are so horrible that their ancestpors are tainted.... You can't help but wonder if... if the grandfathers were capable of such inhumanity then...
It takes time. The arrogance and racism of the average jap is no help either so... you guys are doing your part to further the problem.... To be totaly unrepentant is not helping either. Denying the korean and china atrocities.... never apolodgizing... all these things add up to distrust and animosity.
lazs
Lazs, kindly let me put it to you this way.
It is because I feel that we have not done enough to come to terms with our past, I take it upon myself to express my apology and remorse over what happened in WW2. If someone confronts me with the fact their relatives are dead because of what we did, then it is dead serious. Then that someone has the right to use the word JAP to express his frustration, hatred, disrespect toward us.
If you start abbreviating the way you do, this connotation is gone. And we lose our sensitivity over it. Please, don't dilute it. For your veterans and their relatives, please leave it the way it is. Only use it when you mean it, please.
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Originally posted by Bluedog
FD, I have absolutely no intention other than to have fun, and give a good fight when we meet in the arenas, I certainly wont be 'reminding' you or any other Japanese player of anything.
And as for what you can do for me.......like I said above, you and several other Japanese guys, over the years and without being aware of it, have opened my eyes and made me realise just how ignorant and stupid my earlier opinions where, that, my friend, is more than enough, and I thank you for it.
Blue
Bluedog, thank you.
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Oldman731 thank you for opening my eyes!
I had no Idea that when I make the statement "Look a Jap plane" it was the same as saying "My wife is a slut".
You want to be PC and change your vocab every other day then fine go for it.
I have better things to do than try to keep up with all the whims of every cry baby in this world.
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Its Japan or JPN not Jap.
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Originally posted by Turdboy
I had no Idea that when I make the statement "Look a Jap plane" it was the same as saying "My wife is a slut".
It could very well be Turdboy. But the important point is that it does make me cringe and think twice or thrice on how to reply. I think Bluedog and lazs posts make certain things clear on where we stand on coming to terms with the war. It is still raw. You can ask the Koreans, Chinese, and citizens from Southeast Asia, and your veterans that our Emperor has not officially apologized for it yet. Our Prime Minister have, but that is not enough for the people we invaded. We suck at diplomacy, which is another shameful thing for me.
After about 80posts on this thread, some people seem to still take this as a PC issue, but it is not just that. Please re-read all posts, and judge for yourself what is important. You have the freedom to heed or ignore the request that I made. Even if you heed to my request, how much to implement is really up to you. I, too, need to grow some skin.
As for my tear, it is genuine. Please try not to make fun of it.
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some people seem to still take this as a PC issue, but it is just that
All the best Dutch, but I go with this line of thinking even though I watch my words anytime I open my mouth..
Each has is own individual set of guidlines that either do, or do not show class.
Obviously you met up with someone that doesn't..
I am terribly offended by politcal correctness. Can we please purge the game of this abomination
I would extend that to the world in general.
Political correctness is a guidline set up for individuals that do not have the most basic idea what class is..
Touchy feely does not take the place of common sense and respect for the individual.
I find it insulting.
Along the same line as taking a 4 year old child to a therapist because he has "issues"
PC is a cop out for steppin up and taking responsiblility for one owns actions, and gettin off the pot and handling it when the need arises..
But that's just me..
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Looks like you got plenty of people watching your 6 on this issue FD. I think you have stated your opinion very well. The rest is inconsequential.
And one more thing....
When times were tough, or we were nervous my old Basketball Coach used to say.
"Remember this.. There are a billion people in China that don't give a damn."
That always helps me keep things in perspective.
:cool:
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IMO:
“Political Correctness” is nothing more than a conjured up word for the talking heads on TV, radio and weak mind followers of the media. I learned proper manners from my Mom and Dad as a child. Some my call that PC, I think of it a common sense. However, common sense isn’t common.
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Originally posted by Turdboy
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying things to piss people off but my limited mind cannot handle the ever changing list of offending words.
It seems like every time I turn around someone else is trying to strike a word off the list because it some how offends them.
Sorry but I'm not going to change my vocabulary after 40 years of use just because someone in the world finds my limited list of words offensive.
I am not now nor will I ever be PC.
LOL, I'd think that with a handle like yours, TB, he'd simply consider th source. I mean, how could anyone be offended by someone called "TurdBoy"? I wouldn't be.:D
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well FD now i know why you were pissed at me. I wasnt aware the term "Jap" was unpleasantly offensive to you.
I know i have been guilty of using the term on a couple of occasions but I can assure you that I wasnt using the term either to be Racist or in a derogatory manner.
Like people have said, this is a sim of multi cultures and creeds and what offends one might well be a term of endearment to another.
I have Japanese friends, in fact a near neighbour of mine is from Japan and he doesnt find the term offensive at all, but i am not saying everyone thinks that way.
I will use this opportunity to apologise for using the term and that i will refrain from using it in AH anymore purely and simply because you find it offensive and have personally requested that all AH should do so.
Hey TAHGUT............
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Look I'm not attacking anyone nor am I saying I'm going to use words that offend people just because it offends.
I've grown up using the word like Jap to describe Japenese or Black to describe and it's hard to change just because NOW it offends someone.
I understand WHY he made the post so I was trying to explain WHY I was not going to change.
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Tboy, chill. I wasn't tryin to hammer ya. I just thought your handle was peculiar, that's all. Didn't mean to rile ya. Guess I didn't make myself clear. My apologies.
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This thread doesnt deserve so much argumentations.
I mean, if FD or any other else write in this BBS asking to not use some terms cause they hurts his feelings ( and I think he explained very well those feelings, in his words Ive really discover ed a very sensible person), why, if this is a civil community, we have to argue about what Japans made 60 years ago??
Someone thinks to have a revenge saying "no" to FD request??
Is he responsible af all the atrocities you credit to Japanese govment and soldiers of 60 years ago, so you have to negate his request?
Please remember that everyone here, is a single subject, responsible for HIS own actions, despite his belonging to a country; dont let you be diverged from the fact that this is a WWII PC war simulation, none of us has killed people (here) if not for joke.
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FD... ok let me explain again... The japs that fought in WWII for The U.S. were not "japs"... They were American.. We treated some of them badly. We have admitted to the world that we were wrong about that. I grew up in Los Angles in the '50's in an area where about half the people were Americans of Japanesse decent. They were all good folk that I could tell. I had no animosity at all toward them. They had nothing to do with the atrocities or with their countries policy. They could not apolodgize for their country even if they wanted to but I sensed that they felt very bad about how the japs had acted..
Now... take japan... they have never admitted any wrongdoing in the attrocities that were well.... inhuman... animalistic. Not isolated incidents but a policy of inhumanity commited with glee and zeal. So...
When I think of japanesse peoiple (people who live there) I think about unrepentant and arrogant isolationists. I realize I am generalizing and.... I also realize that I will give each individual a chance as I meet him but.. Like a lot of guys here we have no respect for a country that is so unrepentant about something so horrible.
lazs
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FD, Blue and others.
Lasz, well no comment:rolleyes:
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maik... your opinion on WWII atrocities and nicknames for people who commited them would be.... interesting.
lazs
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Originally posted by Hammy
well FD now i know why you were pissed at me. I wasnt aware the term "Jap" was unpleasantly offensive to you.
....snip....
I will use this opportunity to apologise for using the term and that i will refrain from using it in AH anymore purely and simply because you find it offensive and have personally requested that all AH should do so.
Hey TAHGUT............
Hey Hammy -
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My original CPID was Sourkraut (like the BB). I changed it a long time ago when my Dad told me he took offense to it. My Dad's parents were from the Alsace-Lorraine region of France which was an area of contention between the French and Germans. I never thought of it as an issue, but out of respect for my Dad, I changed it.
That said, what seems harmless to one may be offensive to another. It is not a question of being PC but showing respect. As many of you are aware, there is enormous pressure to change nicknames and mascots for Schools and Sport Teams because of the perception of disrepect to the Native Americans.
FD - I absolutely support you on this. However, I do find your CPID a little humorous given your request.
FD - Do you get to Tokyo much? I go about once a month, staying at the Imperial Hotel in the Hibiya district.
Sour
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I spoke with two Marine Corps veterans who fought in the Pacific and ask them about the use of the "JAP" word. According to both, JAP was not a derogatory term, but was simply short for "Japanese." Both of them said the derogatory term applied to the Japanese was "NIP"
Tara52nd
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slimm50 I wasn't directing my comments towards you but more towards the whole group.
I have no problem with your comments nor just about everyone else here.
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Originally posted by Turdboy
slimm50 I wasn't directing my comments towards you but more towards the whole group.
I have no problem with your comments nor just about everyone else here.
:cool:
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FD,
I have not used the word since 1979 and will not use it in the future.
My history professor explained that it was an offensive term to some Japanese people and said he would never use it. I figured if a man who started his combat service as a marine on Guadalcanal felt it was offensive to some people it probably was.
For what it is worth you can count me as one person who will honor your request.
PS. Thanks for saving my butt from that spitfire the other day!
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dont you have anything else to worry about? jeez.
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I spoke with two Marine Corps veterans who fought in the Pacific and ask them about the use
My dad is a WWII Pacific Vet and uses both terms. He doesn't intend them to be offensive either but that does not make it inoffensive to reader. It costs us nothing *not* to use the term so why simply honor the request that started this thread.
(Re my Dad: At some point in the 58 years since the war he seems to have stopped thinking of the Japanese as the "enemy" an regards them as a quickly diminishing group of fellow combatents of WWIII that happened to be on the other side. Some years back he was very excited to meet both Gregory Boyington and Saburu Sakai. He has a signed copy of "Bye Bye Blacksheep.")
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Originally posted by lazs2
FD... ok let me explain again... The japs that fought in WWII for The U.S. were not "japs"... They were American.. We treated some of them badly. We have admitted to the world that we were wrong about that. I grew up in Los Angles in the '50's in an area where about half the people were Americans of Japanesse decent. They were all good folk that I could tell. I had no animosity at all toward them. They had nothing to do with the atrocities or with their countries policy. They could not apolodgize for their country even if they wanted to but I sensed that they felt very bad about how the japs had acted..
Now... take japan... they have never admitted any wrongdoing in the attrocities that were well.... inhuman... animalistic. Not isolated incidents but a policy of inhumanity commited with glee and zeal. So...
When I think of japanesse peoiple (people who live there) I think about unrepentant and arrogant isolationists. I realize I am generalizing and.... I also realize that I will give each individual a chance as I meet him but.. Like a lot of guys here we have no respect for a country that is so unrepentant about something so horrible.
lazs
Lazs, thank you for your explanation. I suspected that you had some contact with Japanese folks. And I am glad to know that you are well informed of where we are in terms of coming to terms with the war. I am not disagreeing with you. Yes, Lazs, this is all true. As I said before, we suck in diplomacy. I realize that we have to do something. Which is what I am telling you. I do feel that this is a serious problem for us. And therefore, we should be reminded of what we did. My point in response to yours was that the term JAP is a convenient term for this reminder. About 15years ago, I was in the Philippines and just about that time, we had a diplomatic row with that country (God knows what we did there during the war.) They were very angry and only at that time did the word JAP ever come up on public radio.
I know I am pushy with my request. It's just a request. If it's just a matter of abbreviation for you, please consider using other abbreviations like the ones I suggested. If this becomes a matter of PC or civil rights for you, then I just ask you to just ignore my request. That is all.
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Originally posted by lazs2
maik... your opinion on WWII atrocities and nicknames for people who commited them would be.... interesting.
lazs
Lazs, Maik is just a good friend of mine who I always see when I am in Berlin. Please don't mind him.
Maik, I am fine. :)
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Originally posted by Hammy
I will use this opportunity to apologise for using the term and that i will refrain from using it in AH anymore purely and simply because you find it offensive and have personally requested that all AH should do so.
Hammy, thank you. I am sorry I could not properly address it before.
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doesn't JAP stand for Jewish-American Princess? :D
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Originally posted by jEEZY
dont you have anything else to worry about? jeez.
yeah, I must be stupid doing all this just for a game right? But, no, this actually becoming to be a good cultural exchange. I am learning how people are using the term and how they feel.
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People, uhmmm... I wish to point out something here again, while at it maybe rephrase my request...
The reason why I did not bring this up with HTC directly is because I did not want this to be some law or PC or the term be included in the profanity filter. There are many sides to a story, and mine just happens to be one of them. I wanted for all of you to decide for yourselves what is appropriate for you. As I said before, please do this out of your own free will. Should you decided not to go along with my request, just be aware that your words may be interpreted differently that you intended. [edit: I also have to be aware that it is intended differently than I interprete... hopefully, I don't end up schizo...] That is all.
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Originally posted by sourkraut
FD - I absolutely support you on this. However, I do find your CPID a little humorous given your request.
FD - Do you get to Tokyo much? I go about once a month, staying at the Imperial Hotel in the Hibiya district.
I'll be sure to drop you a line the next time I go. We have an office in Tokyo, so I go there quite often.
As for my handle... uhmmm... I guess... I should change it? I am starting to feel that way... "Flying Dutchman" is a ghost. A name of a Dutch novel, a musical piece, and also a type of sailboat. Also a name of a restored P51.... I took it from me boat.
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I will not use the term JAP again, I only want to offend when I mean it.
FD has stated a good case and I respect him for it .
Now ya'll call me GRITS couse I like em.
I think this is (or should be) about over, there is enough anger and hate in the world we really don't need it where we come to escape and unwind.
NUFF???
SEEE YA
SCOOT OUT
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HINDU: This is the sum of duty; do naught unto others which if done to thee would cause thee pain.
ZOROASTRIAN: That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself.
TAOIST: Regard your neighbour's gain as your own gain, and your neighbour's loss as your own loss.
BUDDHIST: Hurt not others in ways that you would find hurtful.
CONFUCIAN: Do not unto others what you would not have them do unto you.
JAIN: In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self.
JEWISH: Whatever thou hatest thyself, that do not to another.
CHRISTIAN: All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.
ISLAMIC: No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
SIKH: As thou deemest thyself, so deem others.
OZARK: Use common sense, treat others with the same respect as you expect.
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
yeah, I must be stupid doing all this just for a game right? But, no, this actually becoming to be a good cultural exchange. I am learning how people are using the term and how they feel.
FD, I was wondering if we could continue this cross-cultural learning experience, could you email me please, at bluedog@kg200.com , thanks.
Blue
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Originally posted by Bluedog
FD, I was wondering if we could continue this cross-cultural learning experience, could you email me please, at bluedog@kg200.com , thanks.
Blue
Yes, I would be more than happy to. Thank you Bluedog.
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Originally posted by Ridge
Call me Ridge, Yank, target, whatever....
Funny u should mention that, other day i reffered to a guy as a Yank and he went loco!
Although i continued to push his buttons i didn't realise it was in anyway an insult.
I think he was just a dweeb. But still confused over the yank thing. :D
Antaris
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This is kind of an interesting thread. Lazs' first couple responses made me spit soda on my monitor. You little ... bastard!
I think Moot brings up a good point. Why is it not OK to abbreviate the word Japanese to Jap (which btw, I had never thought of as being deragatory, learn something new every day), but it is perfectly fine to make fun of the French? I don't, as a general rule, attempt to belittle other people, but some less enlightened people have attempted to turn it into a spectator sport on Channel 1. Although I haven't flown lately, the first thing I've done every time I've flown for the past month or so is squelch 1.
I guess my question isn't really to FD, because I can understand his point of view perfectly well. My question is to all the people that came flying out of the woodwork in support of him, but ignored two screenshots of folks insulting/poking fun at Moots country of origin. Why is OK to belittle/insult/poke fun at the French (who by the way were on OUR side during the war- well, most of them were anyway; and who bled and died resisting the Nazi's)... but not ok to insult/belittle/poke fun (even unintentionally) at the Japanese- who were decidely NOT on our side and who comitted numerous and well documented atrocities against civilian populations in every country they occupied?
By the way FD, this is not a personal indictment of you- I realize you had absolutely nothing to do with World War Two, and I don't think you bear any responsibility at all for your relative's actions during the war. That isn't to say the Japanese should forget about them.. I think they should make very sure that the lessons learned in WW2 are never forgotten. But again, it would be foolish to hold THIS generation of Japanese personally responsible for the actions of the Japanese 60 years ago.
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but it is perfectly fine to make fun of the French?
But..
well jeez Urchin..
they ARE the French..
Why they..
they..
..blow their noses in our general direction..
WHASSS UP WIT DAT ??????
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Urchin,
Language barrier. The word only travelled to the masses here associated with the war. Whether our younger generations finds this term derogratory or not, whether this term had existed before the war, we cannot separate it from the war. We want to laugh with you, but we cannot from our guilt and shame.
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Well, I had a nice long post, asking for involvment.
Hit the damn button, erased it.
BD, FD, I have 3, at least, in the PAC, with differing levels of combat. Ranging from supply(after landing at Guadalcanal), to Iwo, in a landing craft, to an AC mechanic. Original post just asked to be included. I have some issues with Japanese ideas, pre and post WWII.
mathiason51@hotmail.com
CYA in the virtual sky
Forgot to mention that I'll try my hardest to respect your original request.
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Urchin it's because (IMO) we french are seen as the current enemy by some American and Japan is now an allied.
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Originally posted by straffo
Urchin it's because (IMO) we french are seen as the current enemy by some American and Japan is now an allied.
History is a mean reminder.
Ya just cant avoid it.
Parley voux Prussian?
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Parley voux Prussian?
or even Chamberlain voux Churchill
I love the lesson about having to repeat history if you forget it.
(" I think we can trust and work with this man Hitler")
Get ready for history 201
If not now when?
News flash to French we really did'ent need your help in the last two wars either.
When it's over you can cater the party in Bagdad (bring freedom fries)
French Goverment really starting to piss me and many others off. (not all over here). Think they ARE the EU.
Rambeling mode off
Scoot out
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Prussian was for the 1870 war not WWII
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FD for a well thought out, eloquent, and reasonable request.
You have shown a great deal of honor throughout this thread, which, as per the norn, has degraded to into a quasi-Flamefest.
I fully intend to comply with your request, out of respect for you.
I'll be sure to pass this request onto my squadron and ask they do the same.
Best wishes.
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Originally posted by Antaris
Funny u should mention that, other day i reffered to a guy as a Yank and he went loco!
Although i continued to push his buttons i didn't realise it was in anyway an insult.
I think he was just a dweeb. But still confused over the yank thing. :D
Antaris
Thats one of the things I was trying to say, here in Australia, we use slang and nicknames all the time, for everything just about, and think nothing of it, they certainly arent meant to offend, though the origin of some terms are a bit dodgey to say the least.
It has become an integral part of Aussie culture and everyday life.
Usually if we want to offend, we just swear at you, colourfully, we arent a very subtle bunch :)
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It has become an integral part of Aussie culture and everyday life.
Hit that one right on the head:D
Antaris
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Bloody oath...
Tronsky
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hmm... I think I would rather deal with aussies than japs.
did it occur to anyone that if people are so sensitive that you have to watch what you say around them... then you probly won't want to be around em.
lazs