Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on July 27, 2000, 04:34:00 PM
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make them plenty leathal at more realistic ranges but this d1.5 deaths from buff pings is bs any way ya slice it.
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Oh shut-up Cit. Not this again!
Tour 6:
"Citabria has 61 kills and has been killed 10 times against the B-17G."
"Citabria has 25 kills and has been killed 11 times against the B-26B."
eskimo
[This message has been edited by eskimo (edited 07-27-2000).]
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Cit., how did you feel about the Buffs defensive guns on your buff sorties? I can attest that you are a great gunner and stand as good of a chance as anyone at defending yourself, and yet this is how you have done this tour:
"Citabria has 9 kills and has been killed 10 times in the B-17G."
(One of these kills you got ME with a dang bomb!)
And even worse!:
"Citabria has 4 kills and has been killed 19 times in the B-26B."
No one wants to fly long slow buff sorties just to be your cannon fodder!
eskimo
[This message has been edited by eskimo (edited 07-27-2000).]
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I agree with Cit.
make buffs much stronger but nerf the guns. Make a fighter/buff battle much longer and much more fun than ping....wing gone. Also, I notice when I do actually get a decent approach to a buff they go down with 1 burst from the guns (usually, depending on whatever I'm in) which is why I suggest buffs get made much stronger.
Swoop
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i said make the guns strong at close range not at d1.0 or greater
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The thing that people should think about, is that diveing on a buff is an HO. All the things that people claim to hate about HO,s apply. Who has the best connex ect. I have many times taken the wing off of a B17, But died first thanks to net lag. Imagine HO, ing a fighter with a rock solid gun platform, and a 1.8k range. Its the same thing.
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When I fly buffs, I choose to stay away from fighters. I know they have the advantage.
When I get killed in a fighter by a buff, it's almost always because I made a poor approach, and I tell myself that I was killed because of a poor approach. When I make a good appraoch, he is, almost always, dead. Just learn from your mistakes and don't give him a good solution.
When a buff and a fighter meet, it was the fighters decision where and how they met.
Most buff-gun critics do not spend a great deal of time in buffs, and veiw the situation from the fighters point of veiw. Fly buffs alot, and you opinion may change.
This is a game, and buff drivers need a fair chance. If an F4U-1C emptied his entire clip, dead 6:00, at D1.0, the b-17 would get hosed. Net lag puts the buffs at a disadvantage on 6:00 attacks. They need the gun range.
Every B-17 that has gotten me this tour has hit me at D 0.8 or less. I juke to protect myself and my spits radiator at long range, even out to 1.8.
eskimo
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I know this has probably been answered before, but .....
Why aren't 50cals in a buff the same as 50cals in a fighter? Is a game balance issue?
If so, then maybe it would be better to leave the guns the same across the board but increase the toughness of the buffs to help balance gameplay.
But this would no doubt lead to gripes about how hard it is to kill a buff. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The main defense of a buff was either vast numbers or darkness. Since they can easily simulate one nighttime how do they make a daytime lone B17 playable? I agree totally with the guns being over modeled. That in turn forces you to have a huge adv when attacking to offset numbers issue. Buff pilots take twice as long to reach alt as a fighter, making guns stronger with the D1.0 range fighters can defend bases by attrition easily.
I never engage buff with full ammo or more than 3/4 tank, unless they're pork'n my base.
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I am not sure history means much here but some B-17's withstood attacks by more than a dozen german fighters while some B-24's were knocked down by a single Oscar with its two machine guns. I am currently reading the book "Aces Against Japan" by Eric Hammel and some American pilots indicated they were never hit by rear gunners unless they were really close like a 100feet away from the enemy ship. I have been pinged at 1.3K by the B17 which seems excessive to me.
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the only difference between the .50s on the bombers and the .50s on the fighters is max effective range.
Max range is the same, but the rounds from the .50s on the bombers holder thier hitting power an extra 300-400yds or so. This is to counter netlag. and I'm sure everyone has a story where they were shot down with the bandit showing 800-900yds behind them, but on the shooter's FE the range only showed 450-500yds. This has happened to me plenty of times.
I hashed this out with Pyro along time ago when I spent 90% of my time in the buffs.
Historically the .50 has been lethal out to 1600yds, as there is a kill recorded at that range.
And Cit, with those numbers, you ain't got no business complaining about buff guns (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You obviously know how to hit a buff, so dinnae yell about the guns if ya mess up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by CavemanJ:
Historically the .50 has been lethal out to 1600yds, as there is a kill recorded at that range.
I'd like to know what sort of laser rangefinder that guy had in WW2...
Anyway, historically you get more long range kills in AH than enough.
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If you don`t want to see anymore bombers then keep squeaking until they`re *fixed* to your satisfaction. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
If the guns on the bombers are reduced in lethality it stands to reason *ALL* .50 caliber armed planes are going to suffer.
Leave the bombers alone-unless its to add additional hardness to them.
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noble silence (avoidin trimmin)
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I agree with Citabria. (ooh big surprise there lol! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
Make the buffs tougher, not more powerful!.
I BELIEVE that the problem is not the range nor damage, but the amazing accuracy and convergence the guns have.
If I attack a buff from high 1 cloc, I get 5 .50 cal guns shooting at the exact same spot where the human gunner is aiming to. Imho, its when those 8 guns hit you in the same spot at once that you get that amazing 1-ping-of-death I hate so much. On a HO, a P-38 can be said to have perfect convergence on the target with 4 .50's AND 1 20mm cannon.. but I sure as hell dont see one ping kills!.
Like I said in the other buff threads, make the buffs a bit tougher AND make the otto guns fire in a random direction to a 10 or 15 degree cone where the human gunner is aiming. It would simulate other human gunners (instead of a targeting computer as it is now).
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I don't think so
I hope leave it as it is.
The most of case of long range shot from buff gunner is the reason that Fighter approach to buff too straight and low speed small AOA simple manuver.
also AH Gunner is human.
I believe there are still more tactics to kill buff
I prefer to brush me up than request of changing lethality and wearing armor body.
More difficult is more fun right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Zeiram (edited 07-27-2000).]
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My career k/d in B-26 and B-17 is 92:60. I've only flown in formation about 5 times, I don't ackstar and I don't fly them often enough to be particularly good with aiming the turrets and switching around.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-28-2000).]
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Cit,
I also strongly belive the OTTO's are overmodelled (tonight I lose my wings while I was at 1,7K from a B17 and I was going away after the first attack). I do not agree with the reasons of this overmodelling: in this game fiters must be escorted from bombers, and not viceversa like in the reality. I think it'd be a big fun to attack formations of bombers escorted by fiters....but I've never seen (but in scenarios) bombers with escort in this game.
Their gunnery is so powerfull that they need not escort...bah!
Bye
Lucchini
IP: Logged
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I just killed two bombers tonight in the p51 without receiving a single ping. (Trust me, he was shooting. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) If you attack from above at 400+ mph and aim for the tail or wingtip you will have no problem killing a bomber. I got one b17 in 1 pass using 400 rds of ammo (6x50 cal) and the other in 2 passes using around 500 rds. It took about 50 flashes on the tail to take the whole tail off.
Bomber guns are fine IMO, but I wouldn't be opposed to increasing dispersion at long ranges. The only differences I notice between p51/p47 50cal and b17 50 cal is that the b17 50 cal inflicts damage just like the fighter 50 cal would at a range some 500 yds closer or so. (IE 1k in a bomber is like 500 yds in a p51.) Due to netlag I feel this is a neccessary compromise for the top, ball, and tail turrets. (Front turret should have no range boost though.)
Here's a few little (70 to 160k) films for your viewing pleasure. Notice how poorly my aim is in a couple of them. Even though 2 of the films have bombers flown by top 50 pilots, the worst damage I suffer is a blown radiator on a pass that was too shallow. (I have at least 8 more films that are just like these, but the file size is >300k.)
p51vb17.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/p51vb17.ahf)
p51vb172.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/p51vb172.ahf)
poorpass.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/poorpass.ahf)
killb26.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/killb26.ahf)
p47bomber.ahf (http://www.engr.orst.edu/~bloom/p47bomber.ahf)
That's my $.02 on this topic anyway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Yeeeeessssssss !!!!
I agree with Citabria, instead, we do of good, you remove the machine guns from the B17.
Give me a Garand, with a loader from 8 hits.
As, when I am in flight and have 5 fighter that they try to shoot down me, I enjoy much more, and if I am capable, I go back home with the three shots that I remain.
Please ...please... please...
Guys, you want easy preys, because as you could go around for the arena to grow fat yours score.
You like to shoot to the fighter in take-off on the runway in the airports without defense.
You stay badly when you meet anybody that not disposed to become shoot from you without defend.
The airplanes without guns, in the game, there is already, they are the C47, the others, if you approach, they there shoot.
I frequently fly in the B17.
And he is not amusing when 3, 4, or 5 fighter (at 30K of altitude), they try all together of do you asunder.
The only possibility of survival is that of maintain them and/ or strike them to distance.
It is not possible fight contemporary with 3 Fighters at 1K.
I find beginners that put on in my tail often and they come leveled to constant speed and they start to shoot me from 2K.
What should I do? Make to shot down ?
There doesn't think not even.!
I don't fly on a fighter, where for arrive at 20K there they want 5 min., I flight on a big beast, that for reach that quota, he has employed 20 or 30 minutes of my time.
I could not allow me to waste them because you don't want to lose of your time for look for and carry an attack that is decent.
Do you be in a hurry? You avoid the B17.
Want you to strike the B17?
You learn to be patient and you use the proper techniques.
Because if you are wrong, you hardly will retry.
bloom25, says well.
Is easy shoot down a B17 in an only crossing, if is known like carry the attack and if the correct time is spent for prepare him.
Please, fly for enjoy and not for make points. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Cheers.
Max
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When you are flown, there is an only certainty:
In a way or in the other, to earth you will return.
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Actually I agree with Citabria. Suprise Suprise. I understand the need for longer max range for netlag, but lets tune it a little.
Fishu, it doesn't take a laserrange finder. It takes luck (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I was talking to a B17 Tail Gunner just a couple of weekends ago at the AW Convention. He spoke of how one day he fired at a Fw190 at 1,000 yards and got hits... On the P-51 that was chasing the Fw190. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Absolutely not. No tuning is neccesary until we get to the point of having many dedicated buffing squads, that use the natural defensive box formation of WW2.
All of you guys lobbying for de-tuning the buff guns should think about what that would do to the JU-88 and the Lancaster. They're gonna be meat on the table right out of the blocks as it is.
Right now, a fighter pilot has to carefully stalk his buff prey, and make carefully planned attacks. Just the way it should be.
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Cave has posted the effective range deal a few times and he is right. The max effective range has been strengthed, not the max range.
I say leave the guns the way they are, except on Jihad's B-26!
Cobra
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I remember this argument from the other side, when I drove the buffs 90% of the time.
We [buff drivers] kept saying and saying there was something wrong with our .50s, and there really was. This was before the gravity problem was fixed (took tank rounds falling short for that to be found). The gravity was fixed and the .50s got some of thier bite back.
Now, a version later, the fighter jocks are crying because they buffs are too hard to kill. It's not that the buff's guns are too strong, is the gunners are getting better at hitting what they aim at.
If the buff drivers feel relatively safe behind thier guns the fighter pilots cry.
If the fighter pilots feel relatively safe attacking a buff (weaker guns) the buff driver's cry.
Fact of the matter is, the .50s on the buffs could have 10x the lethality they have now, but a properly executed attack won't let the gunner track you and kill you.
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I think the settings are just about where they should be. When there are as many posts about the difficulty in taking down a bomber, or about the lethality of it's guns, as there are as how bad it is to fly a bomber then HTC has almost reached a perfect balance.
-Westy
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I'll throw my 2 cents in the pot. In 11 years of online gaming, I've never been in an arena where the Buffs guns are modeled to perfection.
If you attack a buff the wrong way, its gonna kill ya at D1.5, with a good gunner. If you attack the buff with historical methods, then you're going to get an easy kill.
Buffs, in this boys opinion, are fine. Lets not repeat the iEN fiasco where they change the lethality monthly, thats a joke!
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Leave the .50's the way they are now. At least a bomber has a chance to make it to the target now.
Mox
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I vote to leave the settings the way they are. Buffs are gonna have more to worry about soon anyway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
popeye
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Buffs are fine as is. I can understand newcomers having a bit of trouble with them, but this incessant boohooing from bonafide fighter studs is simply pathetic.
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Hardly ever use buffs I always seem to be attacking them, I say there's nothing wrong with buff guns try practicing a better approach to keep yourself out of their sights. Many times I've had to make several passes on the bomber to get the kill but not one bullet hit me, sometimes all it takes is one good straff starting from its nose down it's entire side and KaBoom no more buff.
Patience is the key, you wanna crawl up a buffs six for the easy kill it isn't going to work unless the gunner's not looking. You have to plan your shot take the time to get into a good position and be prepared to do it all over again. Now if I could only practice what I preach ALL the time they would never hit me.
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Originally posted by Pavel:
Buffs are fine as is. I can understand newcomers having a bit of trouble with them, but this incessant boohooing from bonafide fighter studs is simply pathetic.
That pretty much sums it up.
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Hehe, posting my solution again.
Why everybody keeps ignoring my idea? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
1. Keep the .50's the same for all planes (Pyro says they already are, cool, that's fine)
2. BUT! Increase recoil dispersion so buff gunners cannot so easily maintain the water-hose of bullets on a fighter. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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RE: The water hose analogy.
It's difficult for the fire chief wannabe inside the bomber to give a good soaking to a moving (from his perspective) target. I think those that set up camp right off the bomber's back porch deserve to get wet. Those that practice high closure-high angle attacks stay fairly dry the majority of the time.