Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Rasker on February 15, 2003, 01:30:44 PM
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In the context of the current and temporary disagreement between our two governments, we Americans should remember that the victory of Admiral DeGrasse's squadron (over Rodney and/or Hood) at the Battle of the Virginia Capes ensured the isolation and capture of Cornwallis' army at Yorktown, which in turn produced the British decision to concede American independence. I can't think of any other loss by the British Navy which turned out to be so decisive. The heavy spending by the French government in the war contributed to later troubles and perhaps the French Revolution.
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tst tst rasker......shouldn't talk about "TRUTH"
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yeah we paid them back in the early 1900's you may remember.
Then we put one in the bank in the 1940's you may remember that also.
Then we made a long line of deposits from the 50's to the 80's.
Time for france to pay up....
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France came to help yanks with their independence and in WWI and WWII France was attacked and US came to help them.
Now USA is requiring the french to join in their aggressor forces.
I don't see USA being in a danger where the french needs to come to help.. I only see USA wanting to attack Iraq and be the aggressor.
Bit different issues going on here?
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Significantly diffrent issues. If France choses not to participate, and voices a diffrent opinion.. hey we may not like it, but thats no big deal.
Threating to or in fact placing French Military or technical support elements in Iraq to assist saddam is a helluva lot diffrent than objecting to our cowboy presidents ride to Iraq. This puts french fingers on the triggers of french missiles pointed at our men at arms.
In my mind thats treachery. Not Diplomacy.
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Originally posted by Rasker
In the context of the current and temporary disagreement between our two governments, we Americans should remember that the victory of Admiral DeGrasse's squadron (over Rodney and/or Hood) at the Battle of the Virginia Capes ensured the isolation and capture of Cornwallis' army at Yorktown, which in turn produced the British decision to concede American independence. I can't think of any other loss by the British Navy which turned out to be so decisive. The heavy spending by the French government in the war contributed to later troubles and perhaps the French Revolution.
You know little of the history of French US relations over the past 50 years. The US is wakeing up the fact that France is not that concerned about the US's problems and is more concerned about the power the US wields.
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the french that helped america back then are all dead , the new french have no courage for war.
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jesh is it totaly stupid patriotic bufoonery week? i missed the memo.
great efforts wow.
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Originally posted by john9001
the french that helped america back then are all dead , the new french have no courage for war.
OK, that's enough.
Standby for an illumination round.
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This is posted in another thread, but it bears repeating. Put "The Revolutionary Road" into Google if you want all of it from the source.
The Washington-Rochambeau Revolutionary Route -What it is about.
The Washington-Rochambeau Revolutionary Route stretches across Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware, Virginia and on the return trip, Massachusetts. Much of the route is on the original colonial post roads. Therefore abandoned sections of the route are often also the oldest existing stagecoach routes in America.
The route was used by the American Continental Army to deploy troops in more than five military engagements, including the successful battle to drive the Redcoats out of Rhode Island.
That victory made it possible for the French to land an army at Newport, Rhode Island to join us in our fight for American independence. It took a year for the French army to purchase the necessary horses and forage for the military campaign in America. During that time George Washington waited anxiously as our Continental Army dwindled to less than 3,000 troops and America teetered on the brink of bankruptcy and defeat.
When General Jean Baptiste Donatien de Vimeur, Comte de Rochambeau's French Army transported their artillery across the American states to Yorktown, not many people were aware that the hardships of the war and disease were taking their toll. There were French and American graves all along the route.
The route commemorates a Franco-American campaign to immobilize the Redcoats in New York City and lay siege to their main Southern army at Yorktown. A decisive intervention of the French navy, under Admiral de Grasse, drove the British Navy from Chesapeake Bay, and trapped the Redcoats at Yorktown, Virginia.
Rochambeau joined forces with General Washington on a forced march to Yorktown. Additional French troops and heavy siege guns were landed near Yorktown to help lay siege to the British enclave. Total French army and navy forces grew to 19,000. As the fall harvest was completed and the news of the march of our French allies spread, the American Army swelled to almost 9,000.
Fifteen Redcoats were to perish for every one American soldier before the British surrendered in that final battle at Yorktown, ending the American Revolutionary War. The French casualties at Yorktown were 50% greater than those of the Americans. The French documents show that more than 2,000 French foot soldiers gave their lives in the fight for American liberty, and if sailors and other support are included, over 4,000 of the French perished at our side. And just as General Eisenhower allowed General DeGaulle to liberate Paris, General Rochambeau declined the sword of Cornwallis and allowed General Washington claim our liberty at Yorktown.
Let us also remember that the American Revolution had many allies, allies from every major European country, of every continent, and of every race. It was the French who coordinated with the Spanish and Dutch and lead that allied and very diverse army and navy under the French flag to help liberate the US. There is no question that we owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to the French, and it is time that we show our gratitude by honoring their sacrifices by making the entire Washington-Rochambeau Revolutionary Route a national historic trail. Britain may have fathered America, but France was the midwife that brought America into life[/u].
John9001, you are acting EXACTLY like the ingrates that do not remember/appreciate the US contributions to freedom around the world.
We OWE the French. Period.
If you want to trash them now and forget the debt........ you anger me as much as those Euros that choose to trash the US and forget that debt.
In fact, you anger me MORE. I expect that from them, to a certain extent.
I expect an American to be more appreciative of those to whom we owe thanks for help in gaining our freedom.
I don't agree with the French at this moment. That's not unusual for me at all.
But I'll be d*mned if I'll forget what they did for us and what we owe them.
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you are confusing the french people with the country of france.
the french that helped the US 200 years ago are NOT the same people that live in france now, Rochambeau and Washington are long dead,
history is history, but now is now and todays french do not like to fight no matter what the cause "peace in our time"
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Won't wash, John 9001.
How many WW1 vets are left alive?
How many WW2 vets are left alive? How many of those left alive actively influence US politics/foreign relations?
By your standards, we're "NOT the same people that live in the US now"; Pershing and Eisenhower are long dead.
You've become your enemy. You act like those you attack.
It's unbecoming and ungrateful.
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LOL
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Dunno.. heard two refrences to this possibility on two diffrent news shows. Appears to be unfounded rehtoric and wild supposition. I hope it is.. however, some doubt remains. Got this from the BBC site:
France 'facing both ways on Iraq'
Tough question: Chirac may yet change position
By William Horsley
BBC European affairs analyst
French President Jacques Chirac, heading into a crucial summit with the UK, is publicly opposed to war in Iraq - but in fact is keeping his options open. France would like to preserve its special ties with Iraq.
The signs are that if it comes to war, French national interest would dictate it would take part
It has the closest trade links with Iraq of any country in Europe. Some 5% of French oil imports still come from Iraq.
And the big French oil firm TotalFinaElf hopes to win valuable contracts in Iraqi oilfields whenever the current international sanctions are lifted.
As French Prime Minister in the mid-1970s, Mr Chirac personally cultivated a special relationship with Iraq and its leader, Saddam Hussein.
In past years, French firms built a nuclear power plant at Osirak near Baghdad, which was attacked by Israel in 1981.
A second Security Council resolution could bring France into the war. The French have also sold the Iraqis fighter aircraft, missiles, radar and other weapons systems worth an estimated $25bn.
This long-term relationship would be put at risk if France were to take part in a US-led war against Iraq.
Mr Chirac did not speak of economic interests last month when he tried, with Germany's Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, to forge a policy against the use of military force in the name of Europe as a whole.
He said the United Nations weapons inspectors must have more time, and that there was "so far" no justification for using military force.
His Foreign Minister, Dominique de Villepin, implied that France might veto a new UN resolution authorising war.
He said the government would go "all the way" to defend its stance. Early in January he ordered the French armed forces to be ready "for any eventuality".
France's nuclear-powered aircraft-carrier, the Charles de Gaulle, with a powerful battle group, is now reported to be setting sail from Toulon for the eastern Mediterranean. And France's Defence Minister, Michele Alliot-Marie, has said that French forces will be "ready to intervene" in Iraq if the decision is taken.
She added that it could take as little as two weeks for them to be on a war footing. The signs are that if it comes to war, French national interest would dictate it would take part.
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Frances active support of Argentine Exocet deployment during the Falklands war is telling. I'm seeing a very similar relationshiop w/ Iraq now. Scary, ain't it??
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too bad france has to lose it's aircraft carrier
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Heh Hangtime if you start to write about the stuff the French sold Saddam, you should list also all the hardware your own government was giving to Iraq when it was at war with Iran.. Lol.
Talk about pot blames the kettle there..
Toad: "In fact, you anger me MORE. I expect that from them, to a certain extent.
I expect an American to be more appreciative of those to whom we owe thanks for help in gaining our freedom. "
How could an American be more appreciative when he statistically speaking probably doesn't even know where France is? Just wondering.
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Looks like French did it right, those missles are capable of firing backward too. :D
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Originally posted by john9001
you are confusing the french people with the country of france.
the french that helped the US 200 years ago are NOT the same people that live in france now, Rochambeau and Washington are long dead,
history is history, but now is now and todays french do not like to fight no matter what the cause "peace in our time"
Speaking of courage why is your location Floride ?
Some one a big pair of B* like you should you be somewhere near Iraq.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
How could an American be more appreciative when he statistically speaking probably doesn't even know where France is? Just wondering.
That's it? That's your best cheap shot?
If we're all so bloody stupid.......... how is it we got where we are?
Enjoy your generalizations that help you cope.
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straffo
i served my time in the US Marines in the 60's
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to you, then John.
We'll disagree on some things but I know at "push comes to shove" we'll be in agreement.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Very interesting, and very dangerous. I wonder what the Russians are planning too.
Edit: A US/UK vs. France/Russia war on Middle Eastern soil ... WOW!
Well, we already did a US/Allies war vs Iraq/Russian weapons war. Guess who won? And don't believe for a second that the Iraqis didn't fight back. They were just so overpowered by superior weaponry and better trained forces as to make it seem they didn't.
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Like the T-72s and T-80s that lacked essential night-vision equipment, ballistic computers, DU penetrators and the 9M119 Refleks guided missile (AT-11) which is the primary AT weapon of the T-72, T-80 and T-90 MBTs.
***BZZZZZZZRRRRTTTTT*****
Sorry, wrong answer.
If this hardware is to be utilized then troops have to be very highly and technicly trained.
No such towelhead skillbase exists. To use modern weapon systems of the type you describe you'd need nationaly trained troops to operate 'em proficeintly.
That means your suggesting Russian or French crews operating those highly technical systems.
Thats a dangerous suggestion.
:D
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ya ya , vee haft heear dis all beefour
iraq could have won gulf war " IF "
germany could have won WW2 " IF"
pigs could fly "IF" they had wings
i could be rich "IF" i hit the lotto
but a question, why does some one from norway hero worship a WW2 german fighter pilot? you even use his name online and have his bio in your sig. i thought norway fought the germans in WW2 , or tried to.
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Gosh, given the near-continual, bitter conflict between these two nuclear powers over Kashmir, I would have said "bad news for the entire world".
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Originally posted by Toad
We OWE the French. Period.
Hey..uh.. Toad...
Usually when you go dingging into something I gain some new insight into the topic matter, whether I agree or disagree with you on the subject.
But this one just leaves a great big ? floating in the air.
Yes, the French saved out bacon in the revolutionary war. Kudos to them and a great big Thanks!
But, um, didn't we go and save thier bacon in a couple world wars? Granted my history on I is really weak, but in II didn't we go over and kick the germans out for'em?
I dinnae... I'd say II evens the score for way back then.. but then ya gotta figure I in there somewhere /shrug
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How can one keep score on this one Cave?
We wouldn't even have been here for WW1 and WW2 as the economic and industrial powerhouse that we were without them.
My point is and remains:
Those Americans that are now bashing the French for forgetting our sacrifices for them in the 1900's are themselves doing exactly what they are lambasting the French for doing.
They, who condemn the French for "forgetting" have themselves forgotten what the French did for us.
And every "good act" by the United States since then hinges upon and has its roots in the sacrifice of the French during the Revolution. We would not have won without them. It's that simple.
So, these French Bashers have become their enemy.
It's stupid. It's foolish. It's unbecoming and it's ungrateful.
It's everything they accuse the French of doing.
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its all history and noone in this world owes anybody anything from wars 50 years+. The french are trying to make a name for themselves because of those old wars. It is all just saber rattleing.
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It's hypocrisy on the part of the French bashers is what it is.
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Sorry Toad, I have to disagree. When the French denied us the right to overfly their airspace when we attacked Kadafi they lost any warm feelings I had toward them then. Been downhill ever since.
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I'm not asking you to like them.
But if you're asking for respect from them for our sacrifice in the WW's, I think you have to have the common courtesy to show them the same respect for their actions during our Revolution.
I don't care for them much right now and I'm not in favor of us invading Iraq at this time.
However, you won't see me "bashing", ie: denigrating them as cowards, etc., them either.
That's all I'm saying. You don't have to like them but I feel if we expect them to honor our sacrifice, we have to honor theirs.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Sorry Toad, I have to disagree. When the French denied us the right to overfly their airspace when we attacked Kadafi they lost any warm feelings I had toward them then. Been downhill ever since.
On this point my position is balanced as :
*I allways support my governement (I'm a good citizen)
*It not allways smart to have a foreign country overfly your with live weapon (population density is high here you know)
*kicking Khadafi is a good idea
*when having a lot of citizen in muslim country is not idiot to think about their security.
This fact known what should have be my own decision ?
Yes or No ?
No because of last point and on a less extend because of point 2.
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Originally posted by john9001
straffo
i served my time in the US Marines in the 60's
So you know the price and have my respect.
But Why do you want any kid to risk to be killed when Sadam is far from being the most dangerous on this planet ?
And with the current embargo Iraq is slowly dying , will blow by itself if Sadam disapear ,a bit of patience is just enought.
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Originally posted by Toad
How can one keep score on this one Cave?
See Toad?
It's you, or some devil take possession of your keyboard?
Ready to next step?
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Sorry, Naso. I can't do that; you'll have to do it for yourself.
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Originally posted by Toad
Sorry, Naso. I can't do that; you'll have to do it for yourself.
:D
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The French navy did not save America. Unlike WW1 and WW2 when America saved France, all the French were doing was trying to spite the British.
They did not give a rats bellybutton about America. They were doing the same thing as their recent invitation to Mugabe to come to Paris is doing. Spiteing the British. And you can look back 500 years and see time and time again that is what do at any chance they can.
So forget the thought that the US owes a debt to the France. They do not and the sacrifice the Americans made in WW1 and WW2 is about a million times more significant that anything France ever did for the US.
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Originally posted by Habu
So forget the thought that the US owes a debt to the France. They do not and the sacrifice the Americans made in WW1 and WW2 is about a million times more significant that anything France ever did for the US.
rotflmao :D
Fancy a D* measurement contest ?
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The French King saved the American revolution. The French people cut off his head. Do we really owe them anything?
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Originally posted by straffo
On this point my position is balanced as :
*I allways support my governement (I'm a good citizen)
*It not allways smart to have a foreign country overfly your with live weapon (population density is high here you know)
*kicking Khadafi is a good idea
*when having a lot of citizen in muslim country is not idiot to think about their security.
This fact known what should have be my own decision ?
Yes or No ?
No because of last point and on a less extend because of point 2.
Your last point is the only one that's valid imo (though I'm not certain I understand what you mean) and the reason that your country declined.
It's a lot like the situation today. The US wants to aggressively eliminate the threat while France wants to takes advantage of the situation by denouncing our efforts. Maybe hoping to placate any would-be terrorists with an eye on France?
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That's what I mean Iron
(I know that my english is somewhat broke because I think in French first an then I translate... and even in French sometime I'm not undertood by other french neither :p)
And I don't think we will have an advantage in this conflict with USA.
We allready got bombed by muslim scum previously we will bombed in the future too...