Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Andy Bush on June 13, 2000, 06:32:00 PM
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Tomorrow SimHQ will post Part Three to their BnZ series...this part discusses the 'hit and climb' type of BnZ tactic.
The article includes a section specific to AH and has a series of screenshots that show how to use snap views to fly this maneuver.
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Andy,
I tought myself how to BnZ over a period of about 4 yrs. I just wanted to tell you how great your article on BnZ is. One of my weaknesses has always been disengaging. Well not anymore since I read your article. The part about chosing your egress point before you make your attack, and how to plan it, has realy helped me alot since I read the piece.
Great article! I can't wait for part 3 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
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Andy,
I have tuned in late. Could you please re-post the URL for SimHQ?
Thanks!
buhdman, out
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Walt (buhdman) Barrow
(formerly lt-buhd-lite)
The Buccaneers - "Return with Honor"
home.earthlink.net/~wjbarrow
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Attaboy Udie...spank those bandits and make 'em cry!!
Buhdman
Check tomorrow's mail at www.simhq.com. (http://www.simhq.com.) The article will be posted in the Air Combat Corner along with parts one and two.
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Hi Andy! Good to see you in here. I've read almost every article you have posted since the 714 Gregory Pierson's site MSG Board (ATF MOd gotta love it) to Sim HQ , the most interesting stuff I've ever read and helpful.
Just a side note you might remember me as the guy who asked you a bnch of questions about what is needed to become a pilot ,for a school assingment, and now I'm headed in that direction hopefully getting a combat pilot slot in the USAF( it was reassuring knowing that for the most of your military career you used glsses :-) and were able to fly fighters ).
C ya,
Frank "Glasses" Elwin
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
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Glasses
That's great news...best of luck and hope you get something shiny and fast!!
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If you get to fly fancy fighters, you gotta take up everyone in the AH community for a free ride (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"THIS button looks interesting <push>"
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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LOL ! ...god forbid...
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Udie,
You shoulda read Twisted's Fw 190A-8 writing for AW over 5 years ago. Woulda saved you a lot of time!
//fats
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Not to pee on the cheerio,s. That was a very elegent discreption. However, It was next to useless in AH. You dont fight one guy in AH. You fight him and his wingman if your lucky. Him and his squad if your not. You have to plan your attack to enter the kill zone of 2 or 3 planes. Make you kill and have a plan to get the hell out. This is a whole different matter. I wind up in the top 10 most of the time. (last month, flying under the name slate. I was 7th or 8th) in spite of not being in a squad and flying alone most of the time. If I followed these rules it would be one kill and die over and over.
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Andy,
Very nice 3rd part (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) There's only 1 small thing I disagree with. That would be the functionality of the up view (5 key). I find that view VERY useful. Directly in the middle of the screen, in that view, is the lift vector. Here's how I keep my orientation. Move a bandit to the bottom of the screen and he's moving towards my nose (good). Move a bandit to the top of the screen and he's moving towards my 6 (bad)
Hope that helps you out.........
Easymo,
I eat capt' crunch (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) so you didn't pee in my cherios, BUT I don't agree with your statement. It holds true alot of the time, but I get in MANY 1v1 fights. I usualy work the edges of a furball, to keep my speed up. This is where you can fight alot of good 1v1 fights. Therefore I think his article should be required reading for this or any sim.
Anyway it would be good to know for that time when you may need to know it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and I think alot of what's in there will transfer over to diferent kinds of fighting styles.
and, do you want to fight about it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) j/k
udie
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Great article.
Udie, sounds like you and Berserker are trying to use 'Welded Wing' tactics. It's been my experience that Welded Wing does not work at all in our virtual environment. The wing can't really protect his leader, and as you point out, it usually gets the wing killed.
I teach my pilots a lot of 'Double Attack' and 'Loose Deuce' combat tactics, with an average combat spacing of about 1000 yards.
PS - I spend about half my time in a fight looking out through the top of my canopy.
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Vadr
III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2/)
[This message has been edited by vadr (edited 06-14-2000).]
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Thats not an up view. Thats the "blind zone" ROTFL
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Vadr,
It's realy just at the begining of co-e or higher multi-con fights. Once the fight gets going we "liquify" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) into what ever form the fight dictates. Weaves, Lufburey's and such. Although alot of times he's just sitting back there about 1000 yrds and covering my arse when I get myself in trouble. Thnx sifter! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Udie
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Good and valid comments, guys.
Just to clarify matters...this was not an article on how to fly BFM so much as it was an attempt to describe one form of a BnZ using snap views.
The #5 view is definitely the view for lift vector control...what I was trying to explain about the HnC is that it is a maneuver where your lift vector is not on the bandit for much of the maneuver.
That, of course, is true of all BFM. One of the generally accepted truisms is that the only time your lift vector is on the bandit is just prior to the trigger pull. This statement refers to the importance of out-of-plane maneuvering...and, indirectly, to the significance of not flying in-plane with the bandit, in other words with the bandit at the top of your canopy.
The number one weakness in all of our sims has been in the way they provide a visual display of how to fly out-of-plane maneuvers. In this regard, the snap view has always been the least effective. The most effective is the external view, but too many of us believe that view to somehow be too 'unrealistic'. Padlock lies somewhere in the middle.
As for the folks that are so eager to tell us of their many kills, I only want to remind them that pilots don't win fights so much as others lose them...for whatever reason. So the guy with the 8:1 ratio has put eight other fellow pilots on the losing end. Perhaps our ace ought to help the rest of us out. I'd like to see something written that explains how these experts get this 'good'. I don't want to hear 'what' so much as 'how'.
Maybe they can help us out here...spread the wealth...you know what I mean.
If they can pick themselves off the floor.
Andy
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YEEEOOWCH! Jeez Andy, careful where ya point that thing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Of course, you are very correct, I, being an awful shot and having no sense when it comes to entering a fight I'm destined to lose, would also like it if the "experten" would start to explain things,
(use words with one vowel, I'm Army) instead of always telling us how good they are. C'mon guys, WE know how good ya are, we get to experience that part often enough. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
('course some of the crowers are not, how do you say, "all that")
P.S. And don't be threatening to shoot me down on sight, hell, ANY newbie can do that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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""" Good and valid comments, guys.
Just to clarify matters...this was not an article on how to fly BFM so much as it was an attempt to describe one form of a BnZ using snap views.
The #5 view is definitely the view for lift vector control...what I was trying to explain about the HnC is that it is a maneuver where your lift vector is not on the bandit for much of the maneuver. """
Ok I see, you were talking about using the up view specificly in this type of attack. Seems clear to me now, I don't know how I misunderstood that...
""" As for the folks that are so eager to tell us of their many kills, I only want to remind them that pilots don't win fights so much as others lose them...for whatever reason. So the guy with the 8:1 ratio has put eight other fellow pilots on the losing end. Perhaps our ace ought to help the rest of us out. I'd like to see something written that explains how these experts get this 'good'. I don't want to hear 'what' so much as 'how'.
Maybe they can help us out here...spread the wealth...you know what I mean.
If they can pick themselves off the floor."""
ouch! I hope I'm not one of the ones your referring to (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I only brag about the realy tough fights with pilots like Hangtime and FunkedUp :rolleys: But TIME TIME TIME and PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE and STUDY STUDY STUDY is how I learned what few skills I have.
udie
Andy
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Yes great article Andy, and I much appreciate it. I will point others to this article.
I took the same thing away from that article as you did Udie concerning the up view. I see what Andy means now about using it in the BnZ, but my initial read was similar to Udie's. The trick is that it is an absolutely critical view in TnB fighting, since if you will spend a bunch of time in-plane with the bandit and looking out the straight up view. I use it in BnZ as well, just not as much. I wouldn't call it a blind spot at all, it's one of the most common views I need to use. It is extremely important to map the up view to something that you can access easily. It can be somewhat awkward at first, but getting used to using the up view is critical in any sim that uses snap-views.
One other note, I don't think you point your lift vector at the bogey prior to firing, although you do put it in line with HIS lift vector. You point your nose ahead of him, but your lift vector will be 90 degrees away. I point my lift vector at a bogey to close with him and if I want to stay in plane with him. I see where the saying comes from though, as far as using that as a rule of thumb to keep you doing out-of plane manuevers when flying the E fight.
Good stuff!
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 06-15-2000).]
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Thanks Lephturn
I didn't anticipate the confusion over the paragraph dealing with what I referred to as the 'blind cone'. I think I should have expanded that a bit.
One of the inevitable consequences of only having snap views to use is the over-reliance on the lift vector view, ie 'up'. This tends to result in a 'g for brains' approach to handling turning room and closure. In-plane maneuvering is not efficient BFM but when the pilot is constrained in his choice of views, it is often the only option.
I suppose the word 'blind' was a poor choice. It meant one thing to me with regard to 'seeing' the need for follow-on BFM moves...and I can see now that it was taken instead to literally mean an absence of field of view in that orientation. Sorry...that's not what I was trying to convey.
My intent was to stress that BFM is not about what you are doing now so much as it is about what you are going to do next. Whatever view we use ought to satisfy that need.
Whatever!! I'm always looking for new ideas for articles. Input is always appreciated!
Andy
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Andy... I'm amazed and impressed. I've been readin yer stuffy for years now.. (Hangtime VMF-257) and thank you. Often times, when I'm stumped, the "old masters' white papers" have shed bright insights into my bad sim ACM habits; and have helped me to quantify cognitivley what had previously been 'instinct'.
For help; I can only add that mindset and the desire to win; that a "Get into the fight and FIGHT; GAWDAMMIT!" attitude is crucial to success. Its tuff to quantify, but being on the edge of your game is crucial. Being ready to fight on all levels.. not just tacticly but mentally is the key to success in many situations. I've seen guys do everything right.. and still lose, in part because they were fighting analyticly, technicaly.. and not focusing on pressing the fight.
"I never went into a fight thinking that I would lose."
-Duke Cunningham
I guess I'm saying it's not all just a chess game.. move; counter; thrust + parry... Sure it's a big part.. and yes; it's damn near impossible to dance for long up there if yah don't know the moves. However, I've seen it often enough now to suggest it IS a significant factor... the desire to rip the other bastids bleedin, still-beating heart right outta his chest will often carry the fight when the chessgame gets to stalemate.
"A Good fighter pilot must have one outstanding trait - agressiveness"
-John T Godfrey
Great stuff... and keep it commin Andy.
<S>!
Hangtime
13/TAS -Engaging the enemy.. not the keyboard-
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Hangtime
One of the memories that I'll always keep is the time I was in a group-grope at Miramar in the 70s. Duke was flying for the other side, and we were all kinda awed just being around him.
All I ever saw of him during the mission was maybe a contrail way up high...I think he was looking for guys getting spit out of the fight.
I still remember him in the debrief...just a very laid back and 'aw shucks' kind of a guy.
If I had to have a hero,I guess he was as close as anyone could get.
Andy