Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Jackal1 on February 19, 2003, 05:36:12 AM
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After a botched transplant operation a 17 year old girl desperately needs O+ organs (heart and lung). Details can be found at http://www.4jhc.org .
I put this here because this is the most viewed area.
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Hmmm...
Feel sorry for that young girl, but these things does not belong here! I guess that even your country got medical databases for this purpose.
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this story scares the living toejam out me.. being on the transplant list myself is nerve wracking enough..thinking they can F it up and put in the wrong type of organs is terrifying.. I feel so bad for this little girl who just wanted to live and now is going to die a horrible organ rejecting death. Heads should roll over this galactic screw-up.:mad:
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All the checks and counter checks failed. Sad really. I hear she is #1 on the National donor list now.
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Yea, it`s a real shame and especialy for one so young. I understand that if anyone has info on donor possibilities that organs can go directly to her if specified, therefore cutting down on red tape and more importantly time.
Jensk, yea we have a medical database or two here in the U.S. The idea is to spread the word to as many peeps as possible, as quick as possible. Trying to save a 17 year old life belongs anywhere you can post it.
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Do you have a donor card scheme in the states?
There was much talk of making the UK scheme an opt out, rather than opt in system, which I broadly supported?
Every day tens of thousands of perfectly good organs are left in the corpse and buried right along with them.
It's a difficult subject at best.
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rgr that Bounder..
here in the States you have to opt in to be a donor.. I with it were like some places in Europe, Belgium, I think, that has a program that you are a donor by default when getting a drivers license
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bounder: There was much talk of making the UK scheme an opt out, rather than opt in system, which I broadly supported?
Every day tens of thousands of perfectly good organs are left in the corpse and buried right along with them.
You support an "opt-out" scheme? Have you ever considered what kind of hell would unfold if such a scheme was ever implemented?
The intent to abandon private ownership of internal organs may be good but the unintended consequences...
miko
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Horrible situation for the girl. I hope they find replacements in time to save her.
....National Donor Card, no. Most States have an option to join into the donor program on their Drivers licenses. But every time I think of it, the old Monty Python organ donor sketch pops into my head ;) (actually I checked yes)
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Miko2d
I hope you never need a transplant, believe me, it really sucks...
it has nothing to do with private ownership.. once you DIE you don't own ANYTHING.
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Here in Spain we have a de facto opt-out policy and specially trained staff at hospitals that try to get permission for the families of deceased potential donors. They do it in a careful and considerate way, and the whole system is a great success:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v282n1/ffull/jmn0707-4.html
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I dunno about you, but I need my heart and lungs...
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hawk220: Miko2d
I hope you never need a transplant, believe me, it really sucks...
it has nothing to do with private ownership.. once you DIE you don't own ANYTHING.
Hawk, I will assume you just did not think before your blurbed and give you a chance before I call you an idiot.
What kind of terrible "unintended consequences" do you think I was talking about?
Anybody else?
miko
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A donor has been located. The second operation started around 6:00 A.M. According to news reports, this has a 50-50 chance for success.
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well, I assume miko means that if the person who didn't know they had to opt out had some disease/condition that precluded them from being an organ donor that didn't get caught and their tainted organs were used for transplants.
That's about all of the horrible consequences I can think of.
edit: This incident is probably worse than most are thinking about. Since the poor girl got the wrong blood type organ, that means someone on the list that had the correct blood type has to wait even longer for their transplant. :( Let's hope that doesn't cost another life too.
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Thanks for the effort, Nifty, but no. A person signing a donor concent on their driver licenses have about the same chance to have "tainted"organs - by the time they die - as any random chap. All transplant tissues are tested as thoroughly as possible no matter where they come from.
Even if a few more tainted organs occasionally come through the screening due to the "opt-out" policy, that would hardly warrant being called "horrible consequences". After all, questionable people donate blood (which is a liquid organ) for money and many of them are sick. Blood is someimes tained and people get hepatitis or HIV from it occasionally but it's not a grave concern for society in general.
Try again or watch this thread - I will post an obvious answer in a few hours if no one thinks of it.
miko
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She received new transplants sometime yesterday. The donor is anonomous at this point, but specifically requested the donated organs go to this girl.
The rest is in God's hands now ...
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Originally posted by miko2d
Try again or watch this thread - I will post an obvious answer in a few hours if no one thinks of it.
miko
The would-be donor's family are actually closet pagans, and they need his organs in order to preform some type of pagan resurrection ritual?
Or in their rush they take out organs from a person who could have lived otherwise?
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Originally posted by miko2d
bounder: There was much talk of making the UK scheme an opt out, rather than opt in system, which I broadly supported?
Every day tens of thousands of perfectly good organs are left in the corpse and buried right along with them.
You support an "opt-out" scheme? Have you ever considered what kind of hell would unfold if such a scheme was ever implemented?
The intent to abandon private ownership of internal organs may be good but the unintended consequences...
miko
Private ownership of organs is fine, but after you've croaked you are no longer around to 'own' them.
I carry a donor card, but even that means my next of kin still have to be contacted, it merely shows a willingness. By the time my next of kin have been contacted, its often too late and the organs are useless.
There are problems with an opt out system, I agree, but not insurmountable ones IMO.
Of course we've all read COMA.....:D
I hope she makes it.
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bounder: Private ownership of organs is fine, but after you've croaked you are no longer around to 'own' them.
As with any of your other posessions. Try to go through the pockets of the accident victim as see where it gets you. The property of the deceased person is disposed of according to his will and/or long-existing laws/traditions of inheritance.
If grabbing my heart could help some poor sod, imagine how much good could come from auctioning my house and using the proceeds for good deeds! Oh, wait - we already have "the death tax"...
Anyway, we are straying from my more important question. The public ownership of dead organs is related to it but not directly - just as public ownership of any resource inevitably leads to the "tragedy of the commons" - misuse, corruption and sometimes horrific abuses of the system.
Again, I would not call "surmauntable" problems "hell" or "horrible consequences" - I am talking about a very fundamental problem. Any more takers?
miko
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Miko2d
The intent to abandon private ownership of internal organs may be good but the unintended consequences...
ok, here's what I was thinking you said/meant:
If a person's organs can become public BEFORE his death..such as in case of brain death, coma or the like and we say its ok to take them..that's a slippery slope that could lead to really messed up practices..
I guess I only was referring to AFTER death
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News flash:
Replacement organs found for girl
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,6016392%5E1702,00.html
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OK - since Hawk replied and did not hit the main target - though the point of slippery slope is valid too - I will post the answer.
Let's look again at bounder's "opt-out" or "public ownership" premise: "you've croaked you are no longer around to 'own' them".
So you will have a nice system "one body - one set of organs". The body has to die violent death, of course - old and sick are rarely usefull.
If one needs an organ transplant now, one has to go beg the relatives of recently deceased or pray for someone to die. But with the new policy, as long as there is a supply of bodies, there is a supply of organs. And that supply can surely be manipulated.
People do all kinds of things for their loved ones and children - from starting fistfights at the soccer games to hiring a hitmen because of the cheer-leader squad.
Hawk, assuming you have a child, imagine that instead of just praying for your daughter to die in a terrible accident, some distraught parent in need of a transplant for his child would cut the brakes on her school bus to ensure some fresh bodies? How about putting a piece of steel on the railroad track? Provoking a panic and stampede in a disco?
Imagine a doctor in an emergency room paid a whole lot of money to say "sorry, your daughter cannot be saved" while she really could once he sees her blood type?
How about having to guard your blood type as dear life becasue someone may arrange "an accident" for you or yours - and even drive a victim to the nearest hospital where a relative or a buyer is expecting a transplant? Especially if you are young and healthy?
Those are only the things that I would consider doing for my child that I would not mind society preventing me and others from doing. And it's not a hypocricy on my part.
In war, it is in everyone's personal interests to slack off but if all do so, the war is lost. So before the war, when risks are known but exact dangers to individuals are not, we adopt a system where a slacker is punished so severely that it pays him to stay and fight rather than desert. Even if that slaker happens to be oneself.
If my child needed an organ transplant right now, I would vote for "opt-out" policy or worse. While he does not - and hopefully never will - I will sigh my own organ donor card and carry my blood donor card (with blood type indicated) next to it to speed up the processing - but vote against such an atrocious system. I do not want to ever be tempted.
If such system is imposed, I would make sure that my family and all my friends opt out and make that fact widely known to everybody. Even that would not prevent mass-murder though...
Have you seen an exposee on TV of dozens of medical workers killing scores of patients just to ease the workload or get off the shift in time or just for kicks - no money offered? What if they were offered and a lot of it?
Have you heard about people in US drugged, kidnapped and deprived of one or both of their kidneys? The missing persons? The missing persons and children in third world countries of whom no one keeps track? How many went into the illicit organ transplant schemes? There is a considerable international organ traffiking tracked by Interpol. There are a lot of bad people out there ready to jump on any opportunity you present to them.
The transplant technology is improving rapidly while the share of population in need of transplants constantly grows - due to elimination of natual selection through dieing out of weaklings, substance abuse, chemicals in the environmemt, increased longevity, increase in wealth, etc. The demand would grow and if the opportunity to increase supply presented itself - the hell would break lose.
miko
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I guess that answer is obvious only to the malicious.
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Nifty: I guess that answer is obvious only to the malicious.
Malicious? Right, let's start personal offences...
The answer is obvious to anyone who can think ahead and read history, economy or even science fiction or newspapers. Or watch TV. Or look around in the real world for a moment.
When you have demand and you create a market, you will have suppy, whether you want it or not.
It works everywhere - in drug trade, organ traffiking, alcohol bootlegging, immigrant smuggling, prostitution, gambling, etc.
Naive/innocent people like you thought enacting prohibition would stop alcohol consumption, outlawing drugs will not cause dealers pushing drugs in school, intrducing wild insurance schemes would not cause widespread crookery and abuse, etc. - because you cannot think what malicious people would do.
Guess what - the first responcibility of the State is to protect us from malicious people, so the politicians are better learn how malicious people think and operate.
If you want a state to remove organs from unwilling victims for your use, why don't you emigrate to China or just visit. They farm prison inmates for parts. You can even go there and select a specimen you like, check teeth, etc, than have him take the immunity shots and get slaughtered at your convenience. Not too expencive in our money, you sick self-righteous ghoul.
How is that for name-calling?
P.S. Hoping in advance that you will reconsider caling me malicious, I admit that my name calling above was largely a rhetoric trick for demonstration purposes only. Not everyone disagreeing with one's position is inherently evil. I do not really believe you wish death on my children to get your paws on their organs. You just did not think that far. I hope you do now.
miko
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I am a liver transplant candidate. Why, when, and how are meaningless right? I never thought about killing someone to get a liver, it just really never crossed my mind, what did cross my mind was this...If the call comes and they have a liver for me, what if it would work for someone else too? And what if that someone else was a kid? (I'm 42, so "kid" would include anyone under 30 say.)
The stats say:
On 06/30/02, # of people waiting for livers = 17,379
Total transplants during year ending 6/30/02 = 5,261
Number of patients who died while
on the waitlist during year ending 6/30/02 = 1,861
So..lots of folks waiting..should I take a liver or give it to someone yonger?
You know, the longer I have to think about it (I'v been on the list over 6 months now), the easer it becomes to say "I'll pass, give it to someone else" .
I been here 42 years, Now I realy don't have a death wish, but.. thats long enough for me if god sees fit for me to go, maybe things would be a little better on the other side, I really don't see how they could be worse than here on planet earth.
Think about it, we got lawyers, war, taxes, famon, lawyers, earthquakes, floods, lawyers, governments, disease, cancer, doctors, lawyers, organized religion and worst of all.....LAWYERS!
If anyone is interested in the FACTS...go here....http://www.ustransplant.org/
Good Day!
JimC
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Miko
I thought you were just ranting at first, but that is a really interesting view..I know that in many parts of the world..Eastern Europe, South America..the real poor toejamholes..that folks sell their kidneys and those of their children for very small amounts of money in order to buy food. I'd like to think that that wouldn't happen in an advanced civilization like we have in the West, but who knows? While cutting the brake lines of a school bus seems rather overdramatic, people do some sick toejam.
My views are obviously tainted to one side..I WANT someone with my blood type to plow into a tree. As I'm typing right now, I am on dialysis with two big mother needles sticking out of my arm and all the blood in my body being drawn out, filtered, and returned, so anything that brings about the end of this I'm in favor of.
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big
to you JimC
you liver guys get my utmost respect for your bravery, moxie, and courage under the most trying of life's experiences. Us kidney guys at least have a machine that keeps us pretty much even keeled while we wait for our pagers to go off. Liver guys don't.
the best of luck to you
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Right.
Not only "civilisation" is a very thin veneer even in moder times - as the deplorable behaviour of very civilised germans in the 40s, ugoslavs and former soviets in the 90s shows - but a person otherwise balanced, selfless and rational can undergo a radical change in character when stricken by grief and anxiety for his life and especially that of his children.
Depression is believed to be a clinical condition (rather than a character flaw) but it can strike anyone, more or less, and it would be silly to expect from a person affected with it - who does not much care about his/her own life - to care much about the lifes of unrelated people, let alone laws and customs.
Especially if some scoundrel with no concience offers him a back-door transplant operation and all that is required is not to ask many questions.
I surely hope you guys are OK.
miko
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Originally posted by JimC
I am a liver transplant candidate. Why, when, and how are meaningless right? I never thought about killing someone to get a liver, it just really never crossed my mind, what did cross my mind was this...If the call comes and they have a liver for me, what if it would work for someone else too? And what if that someone else was a kid? (I'm 42, so "kid" would include anyone under 30 say.)
The stats say:
On 06/30/02, # of people waiting for livers = 17,379
Total transplants during year ending 6/30/02 = 5,261
Number of patients who died while
on the waitlist during year ending 6/30/02 = 1,861
So..lots of folks waiting..should I take a liver or give it to someone yonger?
You know, the longer I have to think about it (I'v been on the list over 6 months now), the easer it becomes to say "I'll pass, give it to someone else" .
I been here 42 years, Now I realy don't have a death wish, but.. thats long enough for me if god sees fit for me to go, maybe things would be a little better on the other side, I really don't see how they could be worse than here on planet earth.
Think about it, we got lawyers, war, taxes, famon, lawyers, earthquakes, floods, lawyers, governments, disease, cancer, doctors, lawyers, organized religion and worst of all.....LAWYERS!
If anyone is interested in the FACTS...go here....http://www.ustransplant.org/
Good Day!
JimC
Wow, JimC thats very unselfish of you, good luck!
( Also I heard my dad say that the girl got a hear transplant done with the correct blood type? This true? )
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Idiots like you thought enacting prohibition...
What are my beliefs on prohibition? What are my beliefs on the current similar issue of "the war on drugs." What are my beliefs on gun control (another similar issue.)
You imply I would have supported prohibition, the war on drugs and gun control because I would never have even contemplated killing someone so their organs MIGHT be harvested for my spawn? That's such a huge stretch that it defies any attempt at logic.
I might have actually read and remembered the rest of your little diatribe, had it not been for your pointless and 0% accurate personal attack.
The only thing I'm guilty of here is naivete in not thinking of such a malicious abuse of an opt-out organ donor system. (btw, murdering one or more innocents to save the life of someone is malicious. No other way to look at it.)
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I am sorry, Nifty - when I added in the end of my post (under P.S.) the disclaimer that my name caling in responce to your "malicious" was not for real I just forgot about that "idiot" in the beginning. I will change it right away.
If you've "actually read and remembered the rest of [my] little diatribe" you would have seen that. Again, sorry.
You imply I would have supported prohibition,..
What mattered in my analogy was not what particular view you hold but that all those people were driven by "good intentions". I did not mean "you" but I "like you" - people only seing the positive effects of any action they propose but blind to the negative reprecussions.
I assumed from your posts - possibly incorrectly - that you support the idea of making organs available for transplant by default, without prior and explicit concent of the deceased. That would increase supply but also immediately open a huge area for abuse and murder.
I guess that answer is obvious only to the malicious.
(btw, murdering one or more innocents to save the life of someone is malicious. No other way to look at it.)
I agree with the second statement. But just because I've thought of that possibility, you still have no call to imply that I am malicious. That is a personal attack on your part.
Lots of people have knowlege of bad things through their experience or occupation - policemen, soldiers, politicians, etc. That does not mean they are malicious.
You have no right to imply that even when I say that if somethng happened to my child that could make me mentally unstable and drive me towards an act I consider an atrocirty. That is a purely hypothetical statement.
Nobody knows what would I do in that situation. For that matter nobody knows what you would do either...
miko
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Well if anyone remembers what this post started out as ............................. ............................. ...................
By Emery P. DALESIO, Associated Press Writer
DURHAM, N.C. - Jesica Santillan, the teenager who survived a botched heart-lung transplant long
enough to get an odds-shattering second set of donated organs, died Saturday afternoon.
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Originally posted by JensK
Hmmm...
Feel sorry for that young girl, but these things does not belong here! I guess that even your country got medical databases for this purpose.
Actually, if you look at what it says under O Club...
"Open forum for off-topic and less serious discussions."
In the mean time, it's a shame the girl died after all that trouble.
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Not to spoil the thread hijack currently in progress.
The young lady in question was declared brain dead and the machines were turned off. The mistake had a truly tragic outcome in that 3 people are dead and the gift of the organs was in vain.
One can only hope that better procedurwes will be the outcome of this tragic situation. Condolences for the famileis of all involved.
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:(