Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Replicant on February 20, 2003, 05:51:31 AM
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What's everyones thoughts on Chirac allowing Mugabe (Zimbabwe) to enter France and be entertained? (FYI the EU had banned Mugabe from visiting any EU country and also travelling on any domestic air flights).
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Mugabe was invited because the other "president" (aka dicatator) of Africa wanted him to be here.
Frankly it will give a Pinochet's like scandal...
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The French are idiots. First they coddle Saddam from making his UN disarmament obligations now they allow Robert Mugabe who is murdering thousands of ethnic-european minorities in Zimbabwe to go to france and screw Chirac's cheap potato of a mother. Thats uncalled for!!!
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Next planned move is to rent a castle for milosevic.
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Originally posted by straffo
Next planned move is to rent a castle for milosevic.
Wouldnt doubt it...
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I haven't really been following why Mugabe was invited although I am aware of his attrocities in Zimbabwe. I think it's the last thing the French people want at this time, only bad publicity will come out of this meeting :(
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Why shouldn't be Mugabe be invited ?
Just look at the CV of the other "presidents" ...
Perhaps some find it shocking because he killed white people ?
I bet that if the brit can recieve Pinochet without problem we can do the same with Mugabe ...
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I received this from a South African supplier yesterday. It is a bit of perspective from a Zimbabwean person. It is a bit long but an interesting read. AT the end she talks about France indirectly.
Dear Family and Friends,
I, along with 11 million others living in Zimbabwe, was desperately searching for either food or petrol. There was none of the latter so I spent my Friday morning trudging from shop to shop and after three hours gratefully clutched 2 loaves of bread I had finally tracked down for 4 times the official price. I know I should not buy food on the black market but principles pale into insignificance when you have a hungry child to feed.
This is the face of life in Zimbabwe today and yet the English Cricket Board are still debating whether or not it is right to come and play cricket here and are worrying about who will pay them compensation if they don't come!
I wonder if the ICC know that it is illegal for 5 or more people to hold a meeting in Zimbabwe without police permission? I wonder if they care that, while they stay in our 5 star hotels, we can't even buy food on the black market without first producing cards proving we support the ruling party. I am sure that both the ICC and the cricket players themselves know all of this but they say they are purely a sporting body and not a political one.
Strange then how it was OK for them to boycott sport under the former government in South Africa and during Ian Smith's Rhodesia but not in Zimbabwe now. White people oppressing blacks was unacceptable but now that it is black people oppressing black people, it is apparently OK. The ICC have shown who the real racists are here. Their hypocrisy and racism is disgusting and nauseating.
The South African Minister of Labour visited Zimbabwe very recently and declared that South Africa had a lot to learn from us. If I was a South African I'd either be picketing parliament right now or packing my bags.
We have: 144% inflation; 70% unemployment; Zimbabwe has completely run out of petrol so if one hears of any to be had (probably unpaid for from SA) 5 kilometre queues form and there is no bread, milk, maize, sugar, flour or cooking oil to buy. One dozen eggs cost R66.00 and 4 loo rolls cost R70 now. 6.8 million Zimbabweans are facing starvation, 2 million of our citizens have been forced to leave the country, one person dies every 5 minutes from aids related malnutrition, inflation is at 175% and yet the world is in an uproar about 6 cricket matches. Cricket doesn't really seem appropriate now does it?
The Zimbabwean 'State House' is next door to the grounds where the World Cup Cricket matches are to be played. One of my friends was on his way to the cricket grounds, took a wrong turn and did a U turn near 'State House'. His car was surrounded by armed men, everything was pulled out of his car, he was interrogated, taken behind a wall where he was knocked down and kicked in his head. 5hrs later he got home exhausted in shock and his ear drum had ruptured. Apparently, this is Zimbabwean democracy at work.
I finally tracked down some very expensive vegetable seeds in a butchery but my shock at their price was overshadowed by the sight in front of me. Sitting in a supermarket trolley was a cow's head - eyes, ears, horns and fur intact. I made a point of expressing my disgust to the owner of the shop who simply shrugged his shoulders.
Zimbabwe has slipped into a contagious epidemic of moral decline where no one cares, no one complains and everyone 'just shrugs their shoulders'.
There's no gas which means there are month long backlogs of bodies waiting to be cremated at the morgues where gas fired ovens are used. The chronic shortage of fuel means that there are very few delivery vehicles. The supermarket shelves are getting emptier by the day. In our small town this month our only commercial veterinary surgery closes down, our only private dentist has closed, two of our private doctors have announced that they are leaving, one headmaster has already left and another leaves before winter. A 100 year old town is on its very last legs.
I thank you for helping me spread the word about my two books: 'African Tears' and 'Beyond Tears', which are both still the only eye witness accounts to have been written about Zimbabwe's horrors since 2000. I hope I am able to send this letter now and that you are able to receive it because Zimbabwe's entire e-mail system collapsed this week.
With love,
Cathy.
PS - It is really incredibly ironic how these incompetent, corrupt, stupid African officials are treated with such diplomatic sophistication by the first world politicians. Well, we should realise that the European politician has a very tricky game to play. First you give Africa money and your pious smile is displayed all over the media. Then you sell the Africans your old weapon stocks and you keep your arms industry going.
But in South Africa, with the only viable economy on the continent, you can bribe corrupt third world government officials to spend billions of taxpayers money on useless junk from your arms factories.
But obviously this can only go on until black economic empowerment is legislatively enforced. The fountain will dissapear in the drought of African incompetence and corruption.
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For those of you too lazy to read that previous post in a nutshell France are bananas for even entertaining the thought of having Mugabe visit.
But that is nothing new is it Straffo?
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South Africa is an exemple of neutrality and non-interference for the world.
Please let stop your crusade Habu and start to be rational.
I don't know if it's true or not but a Nigerian friend of mine said that his country and South Africa were lobbying for a come-back of Zimbabwe in commonwealth.
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Originally posted by straffo
South Africa is an exemple of neutrality and non-interference for the world.
Please let stop your crusade Habu and start to be rational.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I do major business with South Africa and even lived there. I know it is the one hope for Africa but it is sadly going down hill.
The letter that I posted was written by a Zimbabwean who is exasperated to the point of tears by the decline that has happened in the past 5 years.
And you government rewards Mugabe by inviteing him to Paris despite the EU travel ban.
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Straffo you are being an ignorant diddly... Did you even read Habu's big post?
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what the diddly do you ignorant morons expect straffo to do.....do you actually think he can stop Mugabe coming to France all by himself.....wake up putz...smell the flowers.
Pinochet went to England..did any of you squeak about it....NO
After the WW2....you guys accepted Von Braun into the States.....but alas it didn't matter if his work force where all JEWS!!!...just as long as he can build diddlyin rockets.....
before you squeak about someones backyard...CHECK YOUR OWN MORONS
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Originally posted by SLO
what the diddly do you ignorant morons expect straffo to do.....do you actually think he can stop Mugabe coming to France all by himself.....wake up putz...smell the flowers.
Pinochet went to England..did any of you squeak about it....NO
After the WW2....you guys accepted Von Braun into the States.....but alas it didn't matter if his work force where all JEWS!!!...just as long as he can build diddlyin rockets.....
before you squeak about someones backyard...CHECK YOUR OWN MORONS
Man are you stupid.
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nice answer habu......
No i'm not stupid....
why...
are you?
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Well we had Pinochet over here a while back. Even paid for his hospital treatment. Beat that!
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Ok maybe I should elaborate on my last post.
SLO do you not see how inviting a person to Paris who has been banned from travelling to the EU and suspended from the Commonwealth and who has totally decimated his country's economy and who is stealing farms from the only productive members of his nation is totally without merit?
On the other had offering a captured scientist a deal to make rockets and share military secrets after a war is not a bad thing? Especially when you are in an arms race with the USSR?
Of course if you have evidence that Von Braun was actually Ivan the death camp guard then post it and I will take my comment back.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Well we had Pinochet over here a while back. Even paid for his hospital treatment. Beat that!
Pinochet is out of power. If France keeps Mugabe then I support his trip to Paris 100%.
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Check your source : there was an arrangement with the brit and the UE concerning travel ban.
Habu if you have no idea of what I speak find a bit of documentation ...
South Africa never interfered in Angola Zimbabwe Mozanbique ?
@GRUN : I can use name calling to my dear "trou du cul"
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Originally posted by Habu
suspended from the Commonwealth
Not for a long.
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Originally posted by straffo
Check your source : there was an arrangement with the brit and the UE concerning travel ban.
Habu if you have no idea of what I speak find a bit of documentation ...
South Africa never interfered in Angola Zimbabwe Mozanbique ?
@GRUN : I can use name calling to my dear "trou du cul"
What are you talking about Straffo. I know all about South Africa I lived there. Your points are so off topic I have to ask, are you drunk or something?
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Originally posted by SLO
what the diddly do you ignorant morons expect straffo to do.....do you actually think he can stop Mugabe coming to France all by himself.....wake up putz...smell the flowers.
well , maybe he could get a sign and hold a protest rally? you know , like the war protesters
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hmm hmm a little history lesson for ya Habu....
von braun is the 1 who built the rockets that killed many many english citizens......yes do call him Dr.Death if ya wish.....
oh ya and he says he never saw anything wrong with jews who looked half dead buildin his rockets....he musta been blind
and no at that time there was no arms race with the ruskies....the US was still helping the ruskies
your views are not mine Habu..so please stop insisting you now better then others.....
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on a side note.....
Nexx sorry bud....but I can't accept people lookin for tid bits of this an that just to pick on someone like Straffo or his country all the time......I'd do the same even if it was another country and another person
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as you love reading :
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/1771/raid1.htm
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Originally posted by SLO
on a side note.....
Nexx sorry bud....but I can't accept people lookin for tid bits of this an that just to pick on someone like Straffo or his country all the time......I'd do the same even if it was another country and another person
In my first reply I was defending the French, but I don't think Straffo understood. As for Pinochet I didn't support his visit to the UK either. It just seems that two wrongs don't make a right and I can't see why Mugabe has been invited to France when it would cause such a stink.
As for 'tid' bits, well this is the O Club and the majority is about politics which always upsets people. Afterall we all have different views on everything. The reason I want to know is why was Mugabe invited?
If you don't like it in the O Club SLO then don't read it.
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agree Nexx....I still think it was mistake by France....
I didn't mean to point the finger at you nexx.....sorry bud
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Originally posted by Replicant
In my first reply I was defending the French, but I don't think Straffo understood. As for Pinochet I didn't support his visit to the UK either.
I dont support Mugabe visit either.
It just seems that two wrongs don't make a right and I can't see why Mugabe has been invited to France when it would cause such a stink.
It was planed before the actual conflict with USA.
But it will feed the French basher ... look how fast Habu jumped in this thread...
As for 'tid' bits, well this is the O Club and the majority is about politics which always upsets people. Afterall we all have different views on everything. The reason I want to know is why was Mugabe invited?
I answered : because some other African "president threatened (menacer in french) to boycott trhe meeting.
btw I've no hard feeling for you Nexx :)
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I think if any of us took a real look at the financial interests of France in Africa we'd all know why Mugabe is in France. Just business as usual.
Yep - and ya know what - we're off to Iraq to depose an evil dictator who oppresses his people coz thats what us honest moral nations do - yes siree.
You could probably argue that France is at least more honest than any of us - "Hey we're making a mint over there so screw you "
Sparks
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Chirac smells $$$$$$ in Zimbabwe. Thats all it is. He smells it in Iraq, too.
I think Chirac is going to go sniffing that green stuff like Whimpy chasing hamburgers until he gets his Gallic nose chopped off.
Chirac owes the people of Zimbabwe and Iraq a grave apology for setting back the day of their freedom.
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Originally posted by SLO
hmm hmm a little history lesson for ya Habu....
von braun is the 1 who built the rockets that killed many many english citizens......yes do call him Dr.Death if ya wish.....
oh ya and he says he never saw anything wrong with jews who looked half dead buildin his rockets....he musta been blind
and no at that time there was no arms race with the ruskies....the US was still helping the ruskies
your views are not mine Habu..so please stop insisting you now better then others.....
SLO you giving me a history lesson is like a blind man teaching someone to read. Really. You jump into a post defending the decision to invite Mugabe to Paris with an attack on the US. Your logic, that the US does worse so what France is doing is ok, makes no sense. Despite that your arguments are also all flawed and wrong.
The US knew from 1944 that they were in an arms race with the USSR. Why do you think both tried so hard to capture the V-2 rocket factories and the advanced Luftwaffe jet factories?
I could stop there but let me comment on your asinine comment about Werner Von Braun. He was a scientist. He did not decide to use his rockets, he not pick the targets for his rockets, he did not launch his rockets. Do you blame the designer of the gun when it is used in a murder? Or more importantly does any court (since you may but no court would).
Labor for V-2 production became a pressing problem in 1943. In April Arthur Rudolph, chief engineer of the Peenemünde factory, learned of the availability of concentration camp prisoners, enthusiastically endorsed their use, and helped win approval for their transfer.
Thus it was Aril Arthur not Von Braun that started the slave labour program.
The first prisoners began working in June. Hitler's concern for V-2 development after July 1943 peaked the interest of Heinrich Himmler, the commander of the SS, who conspired to take control of the rocket program and research activities at Peenemünde as a means to expand his power base. When Dornberger and von Braun resisted his advances, the SS arrested von Braun, charging that he had tried to sabotage the V-2 program. Himmler cited as evidence remarks that von Braun had made at a party suggesting developing the V-2 for space travel after the war. Dornberger's intercession won von Braun's release, but Himmler had made his point. Von Braun's defenders cite his arrest as proof of his differences with the Nazi Party and his distance from the use of slave labor.
Von Braun did not even work with slave laborers. He was in R and D. He was not responsible for production of the rockets where the slave laborers worked.
In interviews after the war, when von Braun and other Peenemünde veterans had risen to responsible positions in the American space program, accusations regarding their role in the Mittelwerk slave labor production rose occasionally. Responding to charges leveled by former inmates of the Dora-Ellrich concentration camps in the mid-1960s, von Braun gave his most detailed response. He admitted that he had indeed visited Mittelwerk on several occasions, summoned there in response to attempts by Mittelwerk management to hasten the V-2 into production. He insisted that his visits lasted only hours, or at most one or two days, and that he never saw a prisoner beaten, hanged, or otherwise killed.
So in conclusion. Inviting Mugabe to Paris and treating him like visiting royalty is an affront to the intelligence of any citizen with any regard for human rights. Justifying the actions of France by comparing them to the US rocket program is not only irrelevant, your facts are untrue as well.
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nice research....
did ya copy it...doh!!!...of course not your Master Habu.....sorry for doubtin ya oh superior one...
what they wanted where the german toys....that was the race....not cold war race
and yes I would shot the diddlyin designer who would create something like that...if i knew in advance
answer this:.... kill the bomber or bomb maker.
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Originally posted by SLO
nice research....
did ya copy it...doh!!!...of course not your Master Habu.....sorry for doubtin ya oh superior one...
what they wanted where the german toys....that was the race....not cold war race
and yes I would shot the diddlyin designer who would create something like that...if i knew in advance
answer this:.... kill the bomber or bomb maker.
Yes I did copy parts from "Power to Explore," a history of the Marshall Space Flight Center published in 1999 and prepared for NASA by Dr. Andrew Dunar and Dr. Stephen Waring, historians at the University of Alabama in Huntsville"
Are you knocking me for using credible sources instead makeing it up and talking off the top of my head like you do?
The cold war started in WW2. What do you think the Berlin Airlift was all about? Why do you think Russia invaded Japan when the war in the Pacific was over?
Von Braun was arrested for talking about his ideas for using the rocket for space travel after the war. He did not care about the applications of what he was making, he wanted to invent a way to reach space. By your argument you would like to kill the Wright brothers as well I suppose?
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hmm nope not dishin ya....not my intention at all...but it does seem that thats what you do....
ya gonna dish me cause I say something without researching it....I'd be spending my whole day researching just to answer questions....nah....I'm supposed to be studyin here:D
just tryin to use my knowledge...things i've learned along the way....
hmm lemme clear up something.....
what I meant to say is .....France has the RIGHT to invite whoever they want.....
do I agree....nope...not in the mugabe invite.
but again...answer the question: kill the bomber....or bomb maker.
and von braun knew very well what his little toy woulda been used for....
please no insults
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You'are perhaps a good teacher to help us learn your version of history but for geography you have some troubles...
QUOTE]Originally posted by Habu
It was not good for France to help the Argentines with their exocets in the Gulf war[/QUOTE]
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Ease up on Straffo guys, hes not Chirac. There is plenty of idiots on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean :)
Like those italian shameless leftists who met the butcher Tarek Aziz some days ago.
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Originally posted by straffo
It was planed before the actual conflict with USA.
But it will feed the French basher ... look how fast Habu jumped in this thread...
Actually I stated a thread a couple of weeks ago called "And Yet Another Reason to Hate the French" and it was about this trip by Mugabe. It was locked so no one saw it. I was pleased to see someone else started this thread.
My Mugabe Thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78209)
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Oh My!! Lets all step back and smell the flowers.
In the end of all this nothing will have changed. We are arguing about things that are out of Our control.
Just remember: The French have given us Sophie Morceau :)
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Originally posted by SLO
what I meant to say is .....France has the RIGHT to invite whoever they want.....
Do you want to know the story behind Mugabes visit? Fine.
Background:
The EU has a boycott in place on Zimbabwe. Everyone knows why. The way it works in the EU is that all member states have to agree on a desicion for it to take effect. Thus every member nation has a veto.
Anyway, the boycott on Zimbabwe is a 1 year boycott. That means it is only in effect one year, then the EU has to make a new desicion to extend the boycott for another year.
France have ambitions in Africa. More exactly they see an opportunity to gain influence in that continent after the UK-Commonwealth conflicts. Chirac decided to hold a meeting in France for alot of African presidents. Mugabe should of cource not be invited, since there is a boycott in place, and amongst other things, that includes a ban on all foreign travel for Mugabe and his thugs. This means that France DOES NOT have the right to invite him to France, it would be in breech of they boycott, a violation of EU policy.
So France approached the EU and said "we want an exception to the boycott, we want Mugabe to be allowed to come to the meeting in Paris."
England, Sweden and Holland said: "No way, the entire point with the boycott is to force him away from power, lifting any aspect of the boycott would counter this goal, and actually inviting him to a meeting would give him legitimity that he should not have".
France said: "If you do not allow this exception, we will veto the entire boycott the next time it is up for extention."
England, Sweden and Holland said: "wtf...are you for real??"
France said:"yes"
England, Sweden and Holland said:"Ok, you can have your exception."
This is EXACTLY how it happened that Mugabe was allowed to travel to France. Personally I think it says millions about the French attitude towards the EU, or indeed the rest of the world.
Straffo...I dont think you realize exactly how bad the French are regarded in the rest of Europe these days. If you think I'm bad...you havent seen nothing.
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You accepted so : shut up.
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Originally posted by straffo
You accepted so : shut up.
Straffo, we were admonished not to beat up on you for what your government does. An admonishment I thought was appropriate especially considering you are but one insignificant voice that may or may not support your governement (no slight intended, well, maybe a little). But with comments like that you're fair game and should bear the shame of your countries actions. Especially since we have so few others to lash at out. :p
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Originally posted by straffo
You accepted so : shut up.
So I guess if you hold a gun to someones head to make them do something then it is ok?
I am glad you live in France. Anywhere but my country.
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Ahhh, Straffo is a good guy. I like him even though France is being misled by that buffoon, Chirac. :p
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We agree Gunthr but like GWB is your president Chirac is mine.
@Iron : having lot of friend from our colonie (err I mean freindly African country ;)) I was pretty pissed not only by Mugabe visit but by the invition of other country "presidents".
But our local O'Club french basher don't want look at the CV of those "presidents" and only look at Mugabe visit
@Habu : "vive le Québec libre"
To make my point clear as england and Sweden have accepted Mugabe visit they are as guilty as France for this concern.
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Originally posted by straffo
To make my point clear as england and Sweden have accepted Mugabe visit they are as guilty as France for this concern.
If France threatens and blackmails the rest of the EU, it is the fault of the entire Union?
Maybe you didnt see what I wrote up there. France said "Either give us the exception, or we will veto the sanctions." Faced with this alternative, England, Sweden and Holland chose the lesser of two evils. So now we are just as guilty for Mugabes visit as France is? LOL you are so f*cking stupid Straffo.
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You fail to undertstand simple things ...I'm stupid to say that YOU have accepted ?
It's LEGAL now mister Judge (or you fail to understand law too ?)
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Just because it is legal doesnt make it right.
You have said yourself that you disagree with the desicion to invite him. Do YOU think it was right to blackmail the EU into letting him travel to france? Do you think its right to give legitimacy to that dictator? Do you think it is a good idea that a member nation of the EU should put its own interests in front of the union, and use the union ONLY for its own purposes? AND blackmail and threaten other nations in the union so it can get its way?
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Have you seen my new sig ?
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Originally posted by straffo
Have you seen my new sig ?
Yeah :)
Cool sig, who was I talking to?
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bastard.
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huh?
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oh my....straff il a raison....
habu i agree with ya....big mistake on France's part.