Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on February 20, 2003, 12:03:47 PM
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Despite the Holy Trinity twist, Christianity is considered a monotheistic religion.
At the same time the Old Testament contains numerous references to other gods besides the God of Israel and existence of powers coming from other sources than God of Israel or His angels (even if fallen ones like Satan) - witness the the Moses supported by God of Israel competing with Faraoh's mages - supposedely supported by gods of Egypt.
How about that "Thou shalt not have other gods before me" and ""For I am .. a jealous Lord..."? Here and elswhere He clearely states there are other gods but jews should worship the One - according to the covenant between Him and Abraham.
I am reading about proseciton of witches during the rennaisance/enlighenment times (not middle ages, as commonly believed and much more civilised than presented) and the official view seems to be that any powers not coming from God or his saints come from Satan which opposes Him. But that misses the option that the powers could come from those other - "neutral" - gods.
What's the modern theological consensus on that subject?
miko
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Post it in AGW forum, Worr is back
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I don't know what the modern theological consenus is but I think I know what many Christians believe. And that is that the other "gods" are either Satan (in disguise) or other fallen Angels.
It only seems reasonable to me that this would be the case since Satan "fell" primarily due to his desire to be worshipped as God.
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hmmm......interesting.....fan tasy subject...I like those subjects
witches
sorceress
Mages
Gods
Creators
Wizards
Dreamwalkers
Seekers
Angels
Dwarves
Elves
hmm what a lovely subject:p
people believe in the most wierd things about....lucky we humans now how to believe in our own imaginations :eek:
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Hey Slo, why do you find it so necessary to attempt to offend others?
Originally posted by SLO
hmmm......interesting.....fantasy subject...I like those subjects
witches
sorceress
Mages
Gods
Creators
Wizards
Dreamwalkers
Seekers
Angels
Dwarves
Elves
hmm what a lovely subject:p
people believe in the most wierd things about....lucky we humans now how to believe in our own imaginations :eek:
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He just pointed out the obvious..
Discussing seriously about stuff like that is offending oneself.. Heheh.. :D
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You think studying the details of a faith that determined values and development of the western civilisation and is still professed by majority of people in US is not a serious occupation?
Do you often pop up into people's homes uninvited just to shout "I am ignorant and stupid, look how smart I am"?
I bet if I look more carefully into your ignorance I will find a couple of weird religions there.
I did not see SLO mention communism or socialism or infallibility of state worship among his list irrational beliefs. Did he forget? Why didn't you correct him?
miko
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
He just pointed out the obvious..
Discussing seriously about stuff like that is offending oneself.. Heheh.. :D
I see, you know-it-alls are just trying to enlighten everyone, is that it?
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Why cant there be a God? Perhaps the old world concept of God is simply dated and out of touch. Perhaps GOD is a being that IS a supream being to us. Much like we are to the bacteria in a petri-dish?
Open your mind to the possiablities. Hasnt it been shown that often what one call imagination turns out to be true? Perhaps not in the manner thought but yet... its there.
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I didn't read through all the thread, but,
Judaisn was the first monotheistic religion.
I'm not an Athesist, I'm not a christian, I'm not Jewish, I'm not muslim, But I belive, that most religions lead to the same god, whether named Allah, or God, I belive that they will lead to God, now there are Bible Thumpers, and they call themselves christian.
But thats one type of christianity, same thing with this war and terroism, there practicing one type of Islamic belife, so don't target the religion target the people that are saying that violence is part of there religion.
If your gonna look at a violent religion, look at christianity, I see tons of violence in the Bible, and hear tons of violence.
Just my Opinion, whether or not it has to do with this thread.
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That's a winner!
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Hawklore: Judaism was the first monotheistic religion.
I doubt it would be the first one if it were monotheistic. And this whole thread is about it apparently not being monotheistic - according to the words of the very God it worships in its Holy Book.
It worships one God - true. But monoteistic religion presumes existence of only one God. If that God mentions existence of other gods and contends with them - it's hardly monotheistic.
This thread certainly has nothing to do with religious violence.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
Hawklore: Judaism was the first monotheistic religion.
I doubt it would be the first one if it were monotheistic. And this whole thread is about it apparently not being monotheistic - according to the words of the very God it worships in its Holy Book.
It worships one God - true. But monoteistic religion presumes existence of only one God. If that God mentions existence of other gods and contends with them - it's hardly monotheistic.
This thread certainly has nothing to do with religious violence.
miko
If you're referring to this: Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:3 as evidence that God acknowledged the existence of other gods then I think you are mistaken. This was a command given to a people that worshipped other gods and while it doesn't plainly deny the existence of those other gods it doesn't imply their existence either.
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I guess what we need is a clear definition as to what a "god" or "deity" is.
If by god we mean any "supernatural" (I hesitate to use that word because there are so many interpretations as to what it means) being that is "magical" in it's capabilites compared to mankind then I believe there are many. However, according to mainstream Christian faith there is only one creator and it is he that created all the others.
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From my Chatholic background akiron would be right.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Taking exact literal interpretations from the bible is a tough thing to do since the the gospels were written at different times and in different contexts. They were also translated and retranslated and in some cases "sanitized" and arranged to give a consistant theme.
From what I was taught that there is only 1 God and that all others are false or the creation of Satan inorder to deceive and seperate you from God.
"shall have no other Gods before me" doesnt mean that there are other Gods. Theres only 1. But humans have a tendency to exalt other things to God status.
Money could be your God, power, science etc..........
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It means just that, and even more clearly in other palces - especially if read in original Hebrew. It says quite explicitely to people of Israel - worship me, rather than other gods and I will promote and guard you.
Not "do not worship satan's spawn" or "there are no other gods", but "I am the God of Israel, do not worship others".
miko
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There's a pizza joint in Keizer (keizer is basically to Salem what Canada is to the US) that's called JC's Pizzaria. Do ya think it's owned by THE J.C.?! Perhaps I'll go there and ask tonight and maybe get this whole thing settled over a tasty pie. I'll let y'all know how it turns out!
SOB
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Yeah, thats true, didn't realize that, but still everthing else I said is what I belive.
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Originally posted by miko2d
It means just that, and even more clearly in other palces - especially if read in original Hebrew. It says quite explicitely to people of Israel - worship me, rather than other gods and I will promote and guard you.
Not "do not worship satan's spawn" or "there are no other gods", but "I am the God of Israel, do not worship others".
miko
OK, so what's your point? Are you suggesting that God acknowledged the actual existence of other gods, equal to himself in power? If so, we'll have to disagree.
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I dont read Hebrew but every aspect of the bible (old and new) have been interpreted. I gave you the explanation from what we were taught.
The word god doesnt necessarily mean the equivalent of the "God".
Others "gods" to whom? God himself? I doudt it.
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ther egyptians were the first monothesists
http://www.cedarseed.com/air/monoegypt.html
then the zoastrians jews got most of their early stuff from them. then the christians copyed them.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/religion/zoro.html
when you read into it you find the mention of the wife of god in hebrew texts ( and i belive the tora ) this is a clear left over from egyptian style (every god figure must have a femail opposite)
http://northernway.org/hgoddess.html
there is really no question that it happend in this way the more you look into it the more it becomes apperent. the similaritys are manyfold.
the whole thing is roadkill in my oppinion but it is interesting to see how modern mind control i.e. religion evolved.
there is nothing original in either jewdaism of christianity unless you count the insanly murderous history of christanity.
never belive a christian they have built in lies they dont even know about.
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Christians worship idols
but i digress
the ancient word for "god " was plurel not singular, i don't mean there were many gods , but that god was made up of many entities, as in committee.
therefor :: if god is a committee , that explanes why the world is so messed up.
don't tell us what you were taught, that is what someone else thinks, tell us what YOU think.
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Originally posted by john9001
Christians worship idols
Christians do all sorts of things that are wrong as do non-christians. Your point? Or are you suggesting that Christianity condones the worship of idols?
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they are trained not to think to fear it.
took me 20 years to dump all the brainwashing.
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in their teachings christians say not to worship idols then they fill their churches with statues and pray to the statues ( mary , saints , etc)
( fallen christian)
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LDF, you must have received some brain damage while performing that brain dump.
As a Christian, I believe that there is only one true God, that all others are powerless under him.
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Well said ammo. Spoken from your own view point and with conviction.
I believe in the monotheism of God. For me to suspect or worship other powers would dilute my faith.
I think the idea is simply a means of directing and nututing the "mustard seed" of faith.
Because Faith seems most central.
I will be baptised this Sunday.
God Bless you and keep you.
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AKIron: OK, so what's your point? Are you suggesting that God acknowledged the actual existence of other gods, equal to himself in power? If so, we'll have to disagree.
Not equal - unless God of Israel chose to punish His people for transgressions of the Covenant, they always prevailed in contests with other peoples and their gods - starting with Moses at faraoh's court. But contests they were.
-ammo-: As a Christian, I believe that there is only one true God, that all others are powerless under him.
Very interesting and relevant turn of a phase. No question who is most powerfull but you do admit existence of "others".
Just to clarity - what do you mean by "one true"? Does that mean the only one we should worship or the only one that exists?
lord dolf vader: the whole thing is roadkill in my oppinion but it is interesting to see how modern mind control i.e. religion evolved.
Most people in all modern societies that claim to be atheistic are harboring irrational "non-materialistic" beliefs.
Very few people I've met/read who claimed to be atheists/materialists really were. Most just claim that their roadkill is completely different and better than others - because they believe so.
miko
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a bit of humour ;)
As Desproges said :
Le judaïsme est la religion des Juifs, fondée sur la croyance en un Dieu unique, ce qui la distingue de la religion chrétienne, qui s’appuie sur la foi en un seul Dieu, et plus encore de la religion musulmane, résolument monothéiste » ...
Badly translated it give :
The Judaism is the religion of the Jews, founded on the belief in single God, which distinguishes it from the Christian religion, which rely on the faith on only one God, and it fondamentaly distinct from of the Islamic religion, resolutely monotheist
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Originally posted by straffo
a bit of humour ;)
As Desproges said :
Badly translated it give :
The Judaism is the religion of the Jews, founded on the belief in single God, which distinguishes it from the Christian religion, which rely on the faith on only one God, and it fondamentaly distinct from of the Islamic religion, resolutely monotheist
You realize that all three religions share a patriarch? Abraham.
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Going back to what I said previously Miko. The Christians (myself included) believe there is only one creator and that he created all other beings, some of which may appear to be gods when compared with human abilities. However, it was made clear to us that we are not to worship these other beings. Do you find this idea contradictory to what you are reading?
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Yep and they share more than Boudhim and Christianisme for exemple.
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If I may, a better translation here would be:
The Judaism is the religion of the Jews, founded on the worship of certain God...
But the christians use the same Book, that was what puzzled me.
AKIron: Do you find this idea contradictory to what you are reading?
I find that idea in line with what christians appear to believe and the works of Fathers of the Church (Augustine, Aqinas, etc.) but it seems not to match smoothly with the Old Testament on which Christianity is fundamentally based.
What we call "angels" in hebrew is referred to as "sons of god" - clearly subordinate positions.
The word LORD that christians use was not used in a sense of "superior" God in hebrew version of the Old Testamant - they used this word (in the meaning "our Lord") to avoid pronouncing the written name of God, which was - and is - their tradition, similar to some christians using "G-d" rather than full word out of their perception of proper respect. (Though other traditions claim that the name of God should be repeated as much as possible since it constitutes the blessing of Him.)
Really, where in English it reads "I am the Lord..." it is originally "I am YAHWEH, God of Israel" - the ?particular? God identifying Himself to His people by name as distinct from... others? After all, why would a unique being need a name, who would name Him?
Also, while existence of other gods is mentioned, the creation of them is not.
Of course the story of creation of the World by One God does not mention participation of other gods either...
miko
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too funny.....
the human brain is truly a wonder of NATURE:p
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The one I like is roughly thus.
"In my fathers house are many mansions.
I go now to prepare a place for you"
Now this was supposedly the son of god,
it seems obvious to me then that there are perhaps MANY ways to reach that heavenly place.
Just the Christians are enjoyed to do it through Jesus.
Yet it seems to me that the Christians have interpeted this to mean that everyone else goes to the hot place.
They and only they will be saved.
Yet it clearly states that in my fathers house are "MANY" mansions.
Are therere not then "Many" ways to salvation?
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Well, I headed out to J.C.'s for the pizza. I didn't see Jesus and the pizza tasted like toejam. No wonder it was so cheap. Discouraged, I was about to conclude that this was not, in fact, the house of the big J.C., but then I remembered back to my childhood. Going to catholic church and having them slide that disk-shaped wafer made out of foam into my mouth that they claimed was bread, and how god-awful it tasted. Hmmm.
So, I had another slice of that foul toejam they told me was pizza - hell the crust may very well have been an oversized communion wafer - and considered that I might just be in the presence of greatness. All the same, I think next time I head out for pizza I'll go to a place who's pizza doesn't make me gag. Jesus obvously can't make a pie to save his life.
SOB
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Originally posted by Ghosth
The one I like is roughly thus.
"In my fathers house are many mansions.
I go now to prepare a place for you"
Now this was supposedly the son of god,
it seems obvious to me then that there are perhaps MANY ways to reach that heavenly place.
Just the Christians are enjoyed to do it through Jesus.
Yet it seems to me that the Christians have interpeted this to mean that everyone else goes to the hot place.
They and only they will be saved.
Yet it clearly states that in my fathers house are "MANY" mansions.
Are therere not then "Many" ways to salvation?
I don't see any basis for the conclusion that there are many ways to heaven from the text you paraphrased, which is John 14:2. The surrounding verses, especially verse 6 clearly state the Christian perspective.
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"
To me, that is a pretty clear statement that there is only one way.
So are you implying that because Jesus, the Son of God stated that his Father (God the Father) has many (as in numerous) mansions (literally dwellings) that there has to be many/numerous ways to God the Father?
Can or will you please expand upon you thoughts listed above -- either via the BBS or to my email address.
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I have a better question: Why does there have to be even one God?
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I have a better question: Why does there have to be even one God?
You can have as many Gods as you want. Nobodys forcing anything on you.
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Originally posted by miko2d
-ammo-: As a Christian, I believe that there is only one true God, that all others are powerless under him.
Very interesting and relevant turn of a phase. No question who is most powerfull but you do admit existence of "others".
Just to clarity - what do you mean by "one true"? Does that mean the only one we should worship or the only one that exists?
Miko-
I will display what Encarta's online Dictionary defines "God" as-
God
noun
1. religion supreme being: the being believed in monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Islam, and Christianity to be the all-powerful all-knowing creator of the universe, worshiped as the only god.
By that definition, I believe that my God, The Father of Christ, The creator of all things, is the one true God. Other gods, are defined by others. I don't believe they are all powerfull, or hold any of the qualities that my God does. However, lets go to the Bible, just a few passages, to see what it says about "other gods"
And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so.
(Whole Chapter: Judges 2 In context: Judges 2:16-18)
I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.
(Whole Chapter: Jeremiah 35 In context: Jeremiah 35:14-16)
And the covenant that I have made with you ye shall not forget; neither shall ye fear other gods.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 17 In context: 2 Kings 17:37-39)
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-ammo- Other gods, are defined by others.
You mean they are "invented by others but do not really exist" or "they do exist but are not to be worshipped by a true jew/christian"?
There is a difference between "false" gods and "other" gods and that is what I am concerned in that thread.
miko
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"Captain, do exactly as youre told. Now, maintain course and speed... be careful... I am a pilot."
Hey, anyone ever read up on Scientology?
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AFAIK, from the OT, it's clear that early judaism was polytheistic; At the time most of the OT was written down, judaism was clearly and exclusively monotheistic.
One of the main problems with doing the history of religion is that many people have a strong doctrinal interest in the fundamental stability of their system of beliefs. After all, the Truth shouldn't change, nor should what people believed.
In fact, no religious movement that I've seen (and that's western religions) has _ever_ "stood still".
So for the OT: yes, you're looking at a group that began with the notion that "the God of the Hebrews is the only God to be worshipped by the Hebrews" to "The God of hte Hebrews is the only God".
Now, as for witches and their power, things get pretty tricky theologically.
Angels are spiritual beings created by God, and at some poing (temporal or logical), some angels of their free will turned away from God and became demons/devils. How they interact with humans is a tricky subject, and one that's open to plenty of interpretation (and they did like to argue about it).
But, yes, Theodicy is a big problem. If God is all-powerful, and all-good, how can evil exist? So how can the devil deceive us?
Yeah, it gets tricky. Devils have some power, but that does not make them Gods.
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Originally posted by miko2d
-ammo- Other gods, are defined by others.
You mean they are "invented by others but do not really exist" or "they do exist but are not to be worshipped by a true jew/christian"?
There is a difference between "false" gods and "other" gods and that is what I am concerned in that thread.
miko
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The text is refering to other spiritual beings or objects that are not "gods" in the "one true God's" eyes. However, some humans, have their "own" gods. That may be an object such as the Sun, moon, or even money or some idol even. It could be satan himself, or some other demonic being. So, they are indeed not God, or have the omnicience, omnipresence, or any of the divine traits of God. So they are indeed false to the one true God (Father of Jesus Christ), or to believers in the true God for that matter, this is the camp I belong to. But likely, people believe that their false god is not false. The Bible tells of witches, soothsayers, demons, etc.
So, do I believe there are other spiritual being that are not God? Yes, and I would make the argument that they are a "false god" to the person that believes they are God.
Here is some more scripture to ponder. In this setting, Paul is on Athens. Currently in Athens, The people are considered of high intelect, above and beyond that of other civilizations, to include the Jewish nation. There is a trend there to believe in whatever it is you want to believe in, and to be "free thinkers" (all this sounds so familiar to me). It is fashionable to create your own Gods, your own philosopy, your own doctrine. The more creative, the better. The truth is very subjective, and that is just fine with the inhabitants of this City. Additionally, the city is totally given over to idolatry. The Epicureans were chiefest of the city, and were great philosephers of Ancient Greece. This text comes from Acts chapter 17, which can be found in its entirety here (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ACTS+17&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on). Paul defines God in this passage.
15 And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timotheus for to come to him with all speed, they departed.
16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.