Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MRPLUTO on February 20, 2003, 04:54:13 PM
-
It may look cool, and every Tom, Dick, and Harry in AH seems to want it, but since the P-61 is slower than a P-38, bigger than a P-38, and less manuverable than a P-38, it will be an even easier target than a P-38.
If we had real nighttime conditions without enemy icons then it would do very well sneaking up on buffs and blowing them up in one quick burst. But we don't, so it won't.
What the "Black Widow" probably will be used for in AH is ground attack. The P-61B carried 6,400 lbs of bombs, which along with 4 x 20mm cannons give it a huge punch.
Since it was rather rare in WW2 (only 700 produced), should the P-61 be perked? If so, how much?
MRPLUTO VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
-
Yep yep, bring the Widow to AH :D
Since when did real world rarity have anything to do with whether or not a bird was perked? Last I heard the perk system was for balancing the planes in the arena. And going by your statement the Widow would have a higher eny value than the -38 /shrug
-
It will be a grape in MA. Squish. As far as an event a/c its equally useless. Its just about the poorest choice for an AH a/c I can think of. Has a cool name, and it looks nice, thats it. It was a specialist night fighter, and was never ever intended to go up against fighters. Much like a Ju-88G, or a He-219. I can think of 50 planes we need a hell of a lot more than a P-61.
MRPLUTO, you nailed it in the first sentence of your post.
-
Is it confirmed that its coming?
Tronsky
-
In a nutshell:
P-61B Black Widow: 360mph
Mosquito NF.Mk XXX: 420mph
That said, bring them both and the Ju88G-7b and J1N1-S Gekko "Irving".
-
Tronsky,
It's not confirmed the P-61 is ever coming, but since so many people want it, we'll probably see it someday.
******
CavemanJ,
My understanding of the perk system is that one of its functions is to reduce the number of historically rare Uber-planes we see in the MA. Hence, the P-51D, La-7, and Fw-190D, although superior aircraft, are not perked, in part because they were used extensively. But the Ta-152, some F4U models, and the Spit XIV are perked because they were rarities in combat.
This doesn't seem to apply to GVs, since only 70 (!) Ostwinds were produced in WW2.
MRPLUTO
-
MrPluto,
The Spitfire Mk XIV was produced in larger numbers than the Fw190D-9 (and vastly larger numbers than the F4U-1C{this wasn't perked for quite a while}, C.205 and N1K2-J), entered service before even the P-51D and saw heavy use through the last year and a bit of the war.
Due to those things, the Spitfire Mk XIV breaks you're theory.
-
Would rather see the Japenese Plane set added to. I'd like to see more competitive planes to the Spit, La, Pony horde.
-
Karnak,
It's actually not a theory; I'll try to locate some BB quotes from HTC people on this subject. Or maybe HiTech or Pyro will just respond and settle the matter.
There may have been more Spit XIV's than 190D's. I don't know. This principle may not always be applied evenly, but I still think that's one purpose of the perk system.
MRPLUTO
-
Karnak,
957 Spit XIV's were produced compared to 650-700 Fw-190D's. Not a big difference. I'd perk the Dora, if it were my decision. That would be more consistant with what's already been perked.
It's misleading to say that more Spit XIV's were produced than N1K2-J's. At least 415 N1K2-J Shiden-kai's were produced. However, in addition, 1,435 N1K1-J's Shiden's with very similar performance and guns were also produced. The modifications made on the Shiden-kai were to forward visibility and to the landing gear. And although the C. 205 was rare, yet remains unperked, I think the C. 205 limits itself because of its own drawbacks (range, durability). It's the rare, Uberplanes that tend to get perked, and should be.
MRPLUTO
-
Real world rarity has nothing to do with it. There were, what, less than 200 F4U-1C's made? Less that actually saw combat?
The -1C was NOT a perk bird when it was introduced. It was perked as a cheap perk for the simple fact it was accounting for 20+% of all kills in the MA. It was an unbalancing force in the arena in the eyes of HTC (and a bane to everyone else :D ) so it got a cheap price put on it.
-
Originally posted by MRPLUTO
My understanding of the perk system is that one of its functions is to reduce the number of historically rare Uber-planes we see in the MA. Hence, the P-51D, La-7, and Fw-190D, although superior aircraft, are not perked, in part because they were used extensively. But the Ta-152, some F4U models, and the Spit XIV are perked because they were rarities in combat.
MRPLUTO
HiTech said once while he was online that the perk system isn't based on the rarity of the plane but what influence it has on gameplay. Any plane that is perked would have a significant impact on gameplay if they were unperked.
And don't even think about saying it, the La7 doesn't effect the gameplay of the arena so that's why it isn't perked.
Ack-Ack
-
Dear HiTech,
Is there any truth to my belief that, "one of [the perk system's] functions is to reduce the number of historically rare Uber-planes we see in the MA"?
Then maybe we can get this thread back on track...
MRPLUTO
-
MrP,
Very brave of you to post this...I'm surprised Rip hasn't brought out the "cat-o-nine tails" and had you flogged in front of the squad for suggesting that the P61 is basically a waste of time.;)
But, if he does it to you...he better do it to me too.
I agree completely...night fighters are a waste of time in the MA due to the icon issue.
Having said that, it may be able to be used in scenarios "if" the icons are removed for that particular event.
-
I've read reports of the performance being damn near equal to the P-38 for manueverability. Now granted, the P38 weighs 1/2 as much, consider the P61 has 2X 2100 hp P&W's, total 4200 hp! Max speed is faster than the P38.
P61 Stats
Specifications:
Length: 49' 7" (15.11 m)
Height: 14' 8" (4.47 m)
Wingspan: 66' (20.12 m)
Gross Weight: 35853 lbs (16260 kg)
Max Weight: 35855 lbs (16260 kg)
Propulsion:
No. of Engines: 2
Powerplant: Pratt & Whitney R-2800
Horsepower: 2100 hp each
Performance:
Range: 1200 miles (1932 km)
Cruise Speed: 275 mph (442 km/hr)
Max Speed: 425 mph (684 km/hr)
Ceiling: 46200 ft (14081 m)
P38 Stats
Specifications:
Length: 37' 10" (11.53 m)
Height: 12' 10" (3.91 m)
Wingspan: 52' 0" (15.85 m)
Wing area: 328 sq. ft (30.47 sq. m)
Empty Weight: 11780 lbs (5342 kg)
Gross Weight: 14456 lbs (6556 kg)
Max Weight: 15500 lbs (7029 kg)
Propulsion:
No. of Engines: 2
Powerplant: Allison V-1710-27/29
Horsepower 1150 hp each
Performance:
Range: 500 miles (805 km)
Cruise Speed: 300 mph (483 km/hr)
Max Speed: 390 mph (628 km/hr)
Ceiling: 39000 ft (11887 m)
-
Originally posted by Karnak
In a nutshell:
P-61B Black Widow: 360mph
Mosquito NF.Mk XXX: 420mph
That said, bring them both and the Ju88G-7b and J1N1-S Gekko "Irving".
Not to mention P-61 is a damn sight more durable, in a nutshell - buff tuff with 4x20mm.
http://home.att.net/%7Ejbaugher1/p61_9.html
-
Um, Rip--those numbers are for something like a P-38F, a distinctly inferior plane to the P-38L we have in AH.
And where the heck did you find 425 MPH for the P-61? Most sources list 360 or so.
J_A_B
-
Originally posted by J_A_B
Um, Rip--those numbers are for something like a P-38F, a distinctly inferior plane to the P-38L we have in AH.
And where the heck did you find 425 MPH for the P-61? Most sources list 360 or so.
J_A_B
Thats MAX speed, not cruise.
-
only 600 ki67s were made, and we have those.
-
The P-61C didn't see combat, did it? I thought only a handfull were completed before the end of the war, and only just over 40 by 1946.
-
The Ta-154 Moskito?!
Sure I know "prototype and all that stuff". But it did see combat to a limited extent and it was a kick butt ride similar to the Brit Mossy.
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg0585.jpg)
Origin: Focke-Wulfe Flugzeugbau GmbH
Models: V1 to V15, A and C series
Type: Night and All-weather fighter
Engine:
Type: Junkers Jumo inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled
Number: 2
Horsepower:
V1, 2 - Jumo 211N - 1,520hp
V3-15, A-1 - Jumo 213E - 1,750hp
C - Jumo 213A - 1,776hp
Dimensions:
Span: 16.00m
Length: 12.56m
Height: 3.60m
Weights:
Empty: 1810kg (3,990lbs.)
Maximum Loaded 2500kg (5,512lbs.)
Performance:
Maximum speed 670km/h (416mph)
Service Ceiling: 11,000m (36,090ft)
Range: 900km (559 Miles)
Armament:
Two MG 17 and a 20mm MG/FF
Now for my flame suit...
OK I give up; don't give the LW guys another ride. I am sorry for making such an idiotic statement about bringing in another LW ride for everyone to squeak about. :D ;) :p
-
Originally posted by MRPLUTO
The P-61B carried 6,400 lbs of bombs, which along with 4 x 20mm cannons give it a huge punch.
The early models also carried 4-50 cal. on top, but most were removed because the muzzle flash blinded the pilot. Just think, 4-50s and 4-20mm in a concentrated fire. That would destroy a bomber formation in a heartbeat.
:cool:
-
Originally posted by 2stony
Originally posted by MRPLUTO
The early models also carried 4-50 cal. on top, but most were removed because the muzzle flash blinded the pilot. Just think, 4-50s and 4-20mm in a concentrated fire. That would destroy a bomber formation in a heartbeat.
:cool:
hmm.. then the .50 muzzle flash must be horribly undermodeled in AH. The turret is behind the gunner seat on the upper fuse (barrels don't even reach back edge of the canopy) and the gunner's seat is behind the pilot.
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cavemanj/p61.jpg)
From what I've read the turret was removed because of buffeting problems, and it was put back on for the second half of the -61B production run. IIRC the turret could be locked forward by the pilot to give 4x.50 and 4x20mm at the same time, or it could be operated by the gunner or radar person.
-
Okay time to bring up something that will annoy MRPLUTO and a few others.
The Black Widow, even for its mass, could OUT TURN any US fighter that was was used in WWII. I got 8 or 9 books on the P-61 and in two of them they state that in a sustained turn the P61 could outturn any US fighter used in WOrld War II, including the P38 later models. Going to take a little to dig through my books to find page numbers and comparison charts. I beleive Flight Journal even published an article about the P61 that stated this also.
Other Night Fighters may be faster, BUT the don't mach the survivablitly and bomb loadout that it could carry. It was a technological marvel of its day. There is some aspects of the Blakc WIdow that are still TOP SECRET even today.
-
Hey Gorf,
I checked out some websites on the P-61, and they said it was "surprisingly manuverable" for such a large plane. So maybe you're right. If you can find some stats, please post them or a link. I won't be annoyed, but I will be amazed if the "Black Widow" was as manuverable as you say.
******
Rip,
The P-61C had a top speed of 425 mph, but only 40 of these were built. We'd most likely get the B model, whose top speed was only 356 mph.
******
Oedipus,
I'm not saying we shouldn't get the P-61 someday, just that...well, you read what I said. Give the masses what they want!
MRPLUTO
-
Well we should get the C model then with this late war theme in the MA. :) Production numbers apparently don't seem important in AH aircraft but "actual combat" does.
-
Another little side note about the P-61. It was the first plane that the U.S. tested an ejection seat.
:eek:
-
Originally posted by MRPLUTO
Karnak,
957 Spit XIV's were produced compared to 650-700 Fw-190D's. Not a big difference. I'd perk the Dora, if it were my decision. That would be more consistant with what's already been perked.
It's misleading to say that more Spit XIV's were produced than N1K2-J's. At least 415 N1K2-J Shiden-kai's were produced. However, in addition, 1,435 N1K1-J's Shiden's with very similar performance and guns were also produced. The modifications made on the Shiden-kai were to forward visibility and to the landing gear. And although the C. 205 was rare, yet remains unperked, I think the C. 205 limits itself because of its own drawbacks (range, durability). It's the rare, Uberplanes that tend to get perked, and should be.
according to a book i have about the FW 190-d9 there were over 1500 work numbers associated to the Dora.....
where did you get your numbers?
-
MRPLUTO,
Ive found that damned near every ride in AH is a disappointment in one respect or another. On the flip side, most rides have a redeeming quality that makes them interesting to some extent.
I can only speculate on how the P61 would fare in AH MA but I do love speculating so here goes :)
The P61 would be a hoot to fly just because it is so cool looking :)
Plus seeing how the guys at HTC would model it both artistically and physically is just about as much fun, if not more, then actually ever seeing it in AH. I honestly dont think we will see it.
Another point to ponder is to see if HTC would/could model radar onboard a moving platform rather than just limit radar to ground points. This alone is an exciting ponder point.
Again, I doubt we will ever realize a P61 in AH.
Did they (HTC) ever follow through and give the Arado the aft viewing periscope?
Anyhoo, heres hoping :)
-
Well P-61C was first delivered at summer 1945 so guess that sub-model is out (anyway only 41 was built).
About roll rate: "if the pilot was able to exert a pretty hefty 90 pound force on the control wheel at about 330mph IAS the P-61 would roll at a rate of 49 degrees per second , taking seven and one third seconds to complete a full roll."
Topspeed was about 360-370mph up to 15000ft and it decreased fast after that alt.
From AHT.
-
Mr Pluto,
I will post the figures as soon as I can. Going to take a little to go through the books.
Alexander
-
It weighed over 20,000lbs empty. It had a top speed of 369mph for the A and B models, the ones used during the war in any serious number.
It was the size of a medium bomber, and any notion that it could out perform 1945 USAAF day fighters is an utter fantasy.
It was a very good night fighter, thats what it was. X-plane? no.
-
C-47 could out turn some fighters but it couldn't out manoeuvre them.
-
JB73,
All of my books that give any indication of Fw190D production total claim that the total was about 700.
Here is one:
The History of German Aviation
Kurt Tank: Focke-Wulfe's Designer and Test Pilot
By Wolfgang Wagner
Schiffer Military History
ISBN: 0-7643-0644-8
Here is an unpleasant (for Fw190D-9 fans) description of the situation they faced:
Dora-Nines equipped most of the Luftwaffe's fighter units during the last fateful months of the Third Reich, but in combat with the Allies - particularly their P-51s and Spitfire XIVs - they were frequently overwhelmed. The Luftwaffe's problems centered on a shortage of fuel, which allowed only small formations of fighters, and of battle-hardened veteran pilots. For instance, when JG 6 (commanded by Major Gerhard Barkhorn, the German pilot who had a combat record of 301 air victories) in April 1945 took delivery of 150 brand new Dora-Nines, it could only fly patrols by four aircraft at a time against massed wings of Allied fighters.
-
If they introduced the p61, they wouldn't be able to model all the cool optics and gunnery mechanisms it had, and you would in turn see a never ending train of p61 whines .
-
You should beware, Not all 38's are as easy to kill as you may think.
-
Hehe where's Citabria :D
-
If there is a P61 lobby, I've never seen it..
Now you talk about a Ki84 lobby ??
Heard rumors of one around here ;)
-
In regards to the above performance stats of the P38 Vs. the P61...
The numbers quoted above appear to be for the P38G.
The P38L's max speed was 440 mph @28,500', engines producing 1725 HP each, max rate of climb was 4750 FPM to 5000', with a best time to 20,000' of 4 minutes 35 seconds (averaged 4400 fpm). Level flight acceleration @ 25,000' for a fully fueld and armed (clean) P38L at METO (NOT WEP) was 2.8 mph per second.
The P38 was more aerodynamic than the P61, had a better horsepower/weight ratio, and lower wingloading. The P61 was built for nightfighting, not to escort bombers or perform sweeps through enemy airspace in daylight. The only areas where the 38L loses ground to the P61 are forward firing armament and ordnance payload. The P61 had 4x20mm compared to the P38's 4x.50. The 38L could carry 4000# of bombs to the 6000# + of the P61.
-
Those are some nice fantasy numbers for the P-38 you've got there Stickman.
It didn't actually perform that well though.
I do agree that the P-38 would have a decided advantage over the P-61 in any case.
-
Not fantasy numbers at all, there is plenty of test data to back it up. And yes, the P61, for what it was built for, was a good aircraft, but certainly not the equal, or even a close runner up, to the P38L in it's final incarnation.
Incidentally, there was more than 1 variant of the 38L. The 1600HP version (actually basically the same P38, but not given the Ok to run at a higher supercharger boost setting) had performance numbers slightly lower, 425 MPH@25,000, max ROC of 4100 FPM to 5k with a climb to 20K of 5 min, etc. All in all, still far superior to the P61.
You might also be interested in knowing, the 38L was equipped with a tail warning radar system.
-
The night fighter varient of the P-38L had the radar gear, it wasnt standard on the day fighters.
Most of the stats for the P-38L have it as 414-425mph approx max speed, but in any case it was a fast ship. The AH #s are very close to what it flew like.
As for the P-61 it would be little better in air combat than an A-20G Havoc. In fact, the A-20Gs #s are not far off a P-61 at all. P-61B is a bit faster (@ 20mph) but heavier than an A-20G. Handling is probably close as well.
-
The 414 MPH top speed listed would be at 54" HG, or military power (rated for 1 hour at this power setting). 425 mph would be 1600 HP, or 60" HG (WEP) and rated for 15 minutes at this setting. Keep in mind that the P38H, which also listed with a top speed of 414 mph was not rated for WEP use and achieved this top speed using 54" HG (1425 HP).
I flew the 38L a few sorties tonight in AH, and as expected, it's pretty much like most other sims....109's can run it down in a dive and catch it in level flight on the deck. Also, the dive brake doesn't seem to brake the dive much:)
-
OH the gv killin I could do with a p-61:D :D :D
-
Which 109s? I find the P-38L in AH is a very good fighter, but flying it in the MA is an uphill battle to be sure, 109G-10s, LA-7s, P-51Ds ect.
Fly it in the CT, or Snapshots (when available). You will find it does quite well if flown to its strengths, vs IJN and LW fighters. Its not the very best, but it can certainly hold its own.
The small dive flaps are not big enough to cause a lot of drag, just to help it come out of compression faster, and they do that in AH.
As far as out diving a 109, they couldnt do that in real life, although at high speeds its boosted ailerons could give it an edge in a reversal.
For level speeds, its as fast or faster than a 109F-4, 109G-6 or a Fw 190A-5. It hits 350 TAS at 1k with boost. Its no slouch.
Regards.
-
"As far as out diving a 109, they couldnt do that in real life, although at high speeds its boosted ailerons could give it an edge in a reversal. "
Not only could it outdive the 109 in reality, it could do it easily. The P38 was in the same class as the Jug in it's dive acceleration.
-
time to end the hijack...
Bring the Widow to AH!!!
please :D
-
Sorry Stickman, no. There is no source for that claim. Bf 109s are not Zeros.
Btw, I am a big fan of the P-38, in AH as well, and often come to its defense on the AH BB by those that slag it.
Regards.
-
Squire, I'm not simply a fan of the P38, I've researched it off and on for going on 5 years, spoken to the gentlemen who flew them and those who worked on them. The pilots knew it had an awsome dive and zoom, as did the engineers who built it. If it hadn't been for it's extreme dive acceleration it wouldn't have had near the problems with compressibility that it did because it wouldn't have had to worry about reaching compression speeds so quickly even when performing such a simple maneuver as a split-S. The 109 had a good dive acceleration, better than the 190 in fact, but it simply wasn't even in the same class as the P47 and the P38. Nothing was.
-
Its not the sword
Its the Swordsman
To a point.
The P-61 was a attacker and a nightfighter. As there is no nightfighting (other than VFR) than the P-61 inst a problem. But if the P-61 has a advantage over a novicce player it should be perked.
-
Hi Mates
The P-61 was designed specifically as a night fighter. Unless we are going to have night operation, with a radar operator, they will not be of much use.
The radar operator guided the pilot to the target. AH going to model this? Will be fun. Germans used Me410 at night. And Mossie and Beaufghter both had night versions.
However, the P-61 will just become another fat target in the daylight.
If they are going to model any more multi engine aircraft should bring out the B-25 and B-24. Two of the most common bombers used in WWII.
My two cents worth
Cheers
Majors
Oldest Yank in the RAF
Not in squad at the moment
-
Originally posted by Stickman
Not fantasy numbers at all, there is plenty of test data to back it up. And yes, the P61, for what it was built for, was a good aircraft, but certainly not the equal, or even a close runner up, to the P38L in it's final incarnation.
Incidentally, there was more than 1 variant of the 38L. The 1600HP version (actually basically the same P38, but not given the Ok to run at a higher supercharger boost setting) had performance numbers slightly lower, 425 MPH@25,000, max ROC of 4100 FPM to 5k with a climb to 20K of 5 min, etc. All in all, still far superior to the P61.
You might also be interested in knowing, the 38L was equipped with a tail warning radar system.
That is nice and wonderul in all BUT, the P-61 was never ment to compete with other fighters in dog fights, turn n burn,, whatever you want to call it. It was ment to do ONE thing and that was ment to deal with NIGHT. It did this very well, more so then any other US aircraft. It had a higher survivablity then the P38, it had far more FirePower and it could out turn the P38L, even in its final version of the L. It could also handle Dive better then the P38L could also. HOWEVER, like I said, the P61 was not a dogfighter as was the P38L.
The two planes had TWO different purposes in Life. THe two were very effective at what they were designed for.
FInal notes.. the tail warning radar system used back then was not that effective.
ALso, the P61 was used for day mission, JABO, and could carry more ord then the P38 could. Was a more stable platform for dive bombing.
P38 was a great plane, I dont think AH models it right but then again, I never have flown a P38 in real life so I am just happy we got one to fly!
-
Originally posted by Majors
Hi Mates
The P-61 was designed specifically as a night fighter. Unless we are going to have night operation, with a radar operator, they will not be of much use.
The radar operator guided the pilot to the target. AH going to model this? Will be fun. Germans used Me410 at night. And Mossie and Beaufghter both had night versions.
However, the P-61 will just become another fat target in the daylight.
If they are going to model any more multi engine aircraft should bring out the B-25 and B-24. Two of the most common bombers used in WWII.
My two cents worth
I think the way around this is to either have a little POP up window that would show what the Radarman would see... OR.. the range at witch one can see a con be increased. Example.. right now at a range of 6 you can tell if it is a enemy, with the nightfigher.. make it 8 or 9.
During the Day it was not a sitting duck. If it hangs out with the bottom feeders YES but up high I think it could hold its own.
It would also make a excellent JABO.. think about it. 4000hp.. 4000lb of bombs.. and rockets.. 4x50s... 4x20s (500rnds apiece). No other fighter I can think off can bring that much fire power and still move fast. Also survivablitly up the wazzuu.
My 2 rubles worth
Cheers
Majors
Oldest Yank in the RAF
Not in squad at the moment
-
Originally posted by Fridaddy
Its not the sword
Its the Swordsman
To a point.
The P-61 was a attacker and a nightfighter. As there is no nightfighting (other than VFR) than the P-61 inst a problem. But if the P-61 has a advantage over a novicce player it should be perked.
You can't be serious. If you are you'd better start a campain to perk every damn kite in the game, with the possible exception of the 202. Anyone who's been flyin since the beta tours is gonna have a helluva advantage over a novice player in any kite they fly.
-
About the P-61 vs the Mosquito. The P-61 comes out on top.
This is coming from the Book "P-61 Black Widow in Action" Squadron/Signal Publications pg 10. And I quote
"There were a number of high echelon Army Officials that wanted to scrap the P-61 program and replace it with the deHavilland Mosquito night-fighters. The Mosquito had been proven in combat by both the RAF and USAAC crews and many felt that it was a superior aircraft to the P-61. American P-61 crews that already were flying the aircraft became upset and vocal about this possibility and some threatened to turn in their wings. As a result, an improvised flyoff was held on 5 July 1944 between a 422nd NFS P-61A and a Mosquito Mk 17 of No 125 Squadron, RAF.
The 422nd NFS official unit history recorded the results: On the 5th, the long awaited test with a Mosquito (Mark 17) was laid on at 1600 local time. Squadron Leader Barnweel of 125 Squadron and his R/O flew the Mossie while LT Donald Doyle and F/O Norman Williams flew the Widow. The P-61 more than exceeded even our wildest hopes, being faster at 5,000, 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 feet; it out-turned the Mossie at every altitude and by a big margin; and far surpassed the Mossie in rate of climb. We could go faster and slower up or down, faster than the pride of the British--- it was a most enjoyable afternoon!"
So Bring on the P-61B Black Widow. :D :D :D
Jag34, Tiger Squadron
Armor: King of the Battlefield!!!
TG12, had to put that last part in.:D :D :D