Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Hristo on February 21, 2003, 12:25:26 AM
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I am primarily interested in feedback from people that have tried both products.
How do they compare ?
Thanks.
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I don't think either one comes with leather straps Hristo..
:p
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Posted just yesterday in another thread. :)
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I've got both the CH Pro setup and a TM Cougar. Both have their pros & cons.
- The CH has more hats & buttons on the throttle, IMO making that part a bit more useful for WB. Another 4 way hat or even a coupla buttons on the TM throttle would make layouts more intuitive.
- All 5 of the Cougars hats can work as 8-way hats (as can the mouse stick), as opposed to only 2 on the CH (1 on the stick and 1 on the throttle.)
- CH has much lighter forces required to move the stick (this is a pro or con depending on how you like the stick to feel.)
- The Cougar is WAY more programmable. The things you can do with this setup are simply astonishing. Stuff like setting WEP to the final 2% of the throttle throw, ejecting only after holding down 2 buttons for 2.5 seconds, on the fly modifying the stick response curves for easier handeling while in landing mode, etc. See http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/...hp?s=&forumid=8 for many other ideas. You'll see that there's a whole Cougar community, just like the AH community. There's dozens of mods which will make this top line piece of equipment even better and some absolute programming wizards. Honestly, the Cougar can do things which you just can't believe.
- A con against the TM is that, at the moment, there are no TM rudders available which plug into it. Older (not currently being produced) TM Elite pedals and some aftermarket serial pedals will plug in to the port on the back of the stick, but I don't believe there are any which have toe brakes. TM is supposedly gonna release some, but I've heard no word recently as to when that may happen. The problem with this is, some games only recognize one controller. AH isn't affected, cuz you can assign commands to any of the controllers you have hooked up. Some other sims though (can't name one off the top of my head though, as all the others I fly recognize multiple controllers. Falcon 4 maybe? I've got it installed, but haven't played it in some time.) won't see more than one. So you don't get rudders. Plug-in rudders would be seen as just another axis on the Cougar. The CH programming software allows you to map all three USB devices (stick, throttle, rudder) as one controller. If you fly mostly AH or don't NEED toe brakes, this is no big deal. I personally use CH Pro Pedals along with my Cougar.
- The Cougar is simply WAY cooler. No doubt about that. Heavy metal, trick looking, shiney, etc.
If I could only have one? I'd choose the Cougar simply because it's a neater piece of equipment and has more abilities.
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^ thats a pretty fair evaluation although I will mention TM Elite's are still available in the US (I imported some for my Cougar)
If the Cougar did'nt exist then it would be a choice out of the Saitek X45 or the CH Pro Throttle/stick. I much prefer the arc type motion of the Saitek stick (same style as Cougar throttle movement) over that of the sliding motion of the Pro Throttle and I found the slide motion far to easy to move the throttle so that when I had things like bomber controls mapped to it I'd accidentally move the throttle or if I had my hand rested on the throttle (Cougar has a tension wheel to set it as you wish).
Overall if the Cougar did'nt exist I'd probably go back to CH for the build quality but as the Cougar does exist then for me there is no contest its the Cougar every time.
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I agree Revvin.. I just plug my old Elite pedals into my cougar and I'm away..
I tried the CH pedals but there was no resitance (to speak of) and it was strange.. having a stiff springed joystick and whimpy pedals..
I went back to the TM pedals even though they don't have toe brakes.
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Used CH fighterstick for 2 years, before buying a Cougar. As I'm sure you know it's heavier than the CH setup, which some people have found hurts their accuracy. I didn't find adjusting to the new 'feel' that hard, however.
If you can live with the fact that at some point it's likely you'll have to open the Cougar up and clean the pots, it is superior. Mine worked fine for 5 months of moderate use, then the throttle pot started playing up really bad. Many on Cougarworld have had similar trouble, so the quality of the internals is definately not all it should be. Cleaning the pots however is not that hard to do.
I'd regard going back to CH from a working Cougar as stepping back to an inferior product in all respects but one: the CH pots are definately more reliable.
Vladd
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The Cougar is WAY more programmable.
I think the latest version of the CH software (Control Manager 2.0) has pretty much drawn even with the programming ability of the Cougar. They've created a programming language for the CH stuff that looks pretty similar to the Cougar programming language.
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Logical programming for CH gear?
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I have all ch stuff but I dont use the control manager, from what I have read and heard the the new cm 2 is pretty decent and has lotsa programing options.
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Originally posted by funkedup
I think the latest version of the CH software (Control Manager 2.0) has pretty much drawn even with the programming ability of the Cougar. They've created a programming language for the CH stuff that looks pretty similar to the Cougar programming language.
Yay CH Products! And it only took ya 7 years to catch up! :)
SOB
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Damn... this ain't nothing like the CH vs TM fights of old. No spirit in the kids these days. I tell ya man...
By the way... your average limp wristed CH user can't even lift a Cougar.
MiniD
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Thanks for your replies. I am actually close to buying a new Hotas and have narrowed my options to the mentioned two.
Despite my bad experience with TM before, I am still slightly favoring the Cougar. But its stability (especially pots) worries me - actually a long story.
HAL mod is quite an expensive option, especially when you consider you'll have to solve center play too.
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I have had a Cougar for a while and it's fine. No problem with pots yet and I dont see why I should. Centre play is there but I never notice it.
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Bought my CH F16 Fighterstick and Pro-Throttle just after the '96 AW con in Florida and have only had to change the pots and springs on the stick little over a year ago. This setup has been rock-solid otherwise and very dependable. I hear people are having problems with the Cougar, with Cougar support, and no plans are in the works for new "grips" as they said in pre-development. One good thing to say for TM, I am still using my original rudder pedals, the TM RCS set bought when I first started this silly addiction way back in 94'ish.
When this stick finally fails you can be assured the replacement will be from CH.
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Originally posted by Revvin
Logical programming for CH gear?
Yep. Reading the documentation made my eyes glaze over. I read the Cougar documentation too and got a similar effect. So I judge them both equal in their ability to bore me to tears with complexity of programming. One of them may have an edge but to find out, we will need a reviewer with a much higher boredom threshold than mine. :)
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Originally posted by Mini D
By the way... your average limp wristed CH user can't even lift a Cougar.
MiniD
Did you ever see the photo of Mietla's Cougar that fell off his chair onto shag carpet? It cracked right in half. Two pieces. You could play soccer with a CH throttle before it would fall apart like that. :)
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Here ya go:
(http://www.raf303.org/mietla/cougar.jpg)
So much for "rugged metal construction". :)
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What baffles me is why they would go to the trouble to make a joystick completely out of metal, and then go with plastic for the main support brace on the throttle. That was more than adequate for the TQS, but since the TQS weighed all of 4 ounces, there would never be any sudden force on that brace. They must've either had a penny pincher or someone without any common sense in charge of that decision.
SOB
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I saw that funkedup.. But then... an 11 pound object fell and hit at the tip of the lever. Mietla even said it landed right at the end of the handle. That's enough to break most things.
And, I'll take you up on that soccer with a CH throttle suggestion. Its all they're really good for anyways.
I do find the fact that you're from SF and a CH fan to be somewhat scary. But then... I am a homophobe.
MiniD
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The part of the stick you illustrated is the only plastic part on the HOTAS and I very much doubt the CH Throttle would take 8lb's of weight dropped on it as that's what the Cougar throttle unit weigh's.
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Thats nothing you should see what a cutting torch will do to the things. I mean come on you would think that a Cougar would be able to stand up to intense heat; after all it is made of metal. ;)
DISCLAIMER: Any fool that would be dumb enough to put their Cougar up against a cutting torch needs to send me the Cougar immediately. I am starting a Cougar Rescue Organization; calling it "popsicle Cat Rescue of America". If you feel the need to damage your Cougar in any way please send it to me immediately. You can reach me via email through my profile. :D
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Blah blah blah weight blah blah blah design blah blah blah
Shuddup and refer to the Scoreboard:
Shag Carpet 1
Overpriced Metal Phallus 0
:)
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Why are you thinking about my noodle?
SOB
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Another setup a bit costless is : MSforce Feed Back2 + CH throttle.
Dunno if it's good I use a X45 myself :)
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LOL Funked's got an inferiority complex when it comes to your phallus and the Cougar SOB :)
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One thing about the Cougar:
You can't get spare parts, they refuse to supply them.
If any one knows where I can get a Cougar throttle pot, I'd be very gratefull :(
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Seeker> TM have supplied many others with pots, not sure why they would not supply them to you?
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I have had both sets, as well as the X45 in the last year.
The Cougar was very cool, I used an F22 setup for years and the programming/etc was very familiar. I used the cougar for about 6 months with no pot troubles.
The one thing I hated was the impresicion around the center. No matter how many hundreds of curves and settings both in the Cougar setup and AH that I tried could I ever find something that gave me the precision for both long range shooting and non-nose bounce snap shots that CH gave me.
I'm one of the few with this complaint, other than that the Cougar was 100% for me, I just got tired of missing shots that I was used to hitting, and 6 months was a long enough trial period to try and get used to it.
Went back to CH stuff, k/d and accuracy went up by a factor of 2 in a month.
Honestly Hristo, I'd buy the Cougar, you probably will have better luck than I, as I think mine may have been defective (3/4 inch slop around center about 2 days after opening it), and plugging in a cheap set of gameport pro peddals works very well with it.
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I am really really trying to be objective again with TM. But it is getting harder.
My gripe with F22 and TQS was never about plastic parts or even hats not working. It was much simpler - bad quality pots and center play. IMO, they "fixed" what was not needed (plastic -> metal), but left the glaring weakness - jitter and center play.
They said USB would take care of that. They said new pots are nothing like the old ones. They said their resolution was way higher (what does that have to do with spiking ??). They even said I am a CH employee who is trolling around Cougar boards.
Again, thanks for your input.
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Mine still has center play.
I will be getting a fix for it. But it will be pricey
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I am really really trying to be objective again with TM. But it is getting harder
You only have yourself to blame due to your behaviour on their forums.
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I pre-ordered my Cougar and have had if for just under a year now. I have no problems with pots. There is play around the center, and it is not an issue with me. The play is the area at the center before the springs kick in. I am a long time TM user, and I have had a chance to try the CH and the X45 that friends have. I think the Cougar is the best high end joystick available.
I enjoy programming the stick. It comes with all the software tools inclulding a GUI program for assigning buttons if your not into this. Here are a few things I did, that I don't think is possible with any other stick:
Auto Hide the cursor
Turn off film after each flight
Radio Tuner
Dial for calibration of level bomb sights
Custom views with a flip of a switch
Hold vehicle throttle to full with a press of a button
There has been problem with ordering spare parts, but it looks like they have fixed this, or are working on it. I have a FLCS/TQS that I still use. I upgraded to the digital chips. I just replaced a had switch. I ordered on-line at TM on a Sunday, I had the parts in hand Tuesday when I came home from work. This stick is about 6 years old and has the origional pots, never been cleaned and no spiking.
The Cougar is not for everyone. I think Doberman's post was a well done comparison. I will add this:
Don't buy a Cougar if:
If you can't afford it
If you have a habit of dropping expensive computer components
You plan to use it as a socker ball
You have still have shag carpet
:)
Gunner
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Originally posted by Revvin
You only have yourself to blame due to your behaviour on their forums.
Yup, I was annoyed by wishful thinking of how so perfect the Cougar will be and rightly pissed with Nutty's arrogance about pot issues. While calling me uneducated, he explained that higher resolution pots would solve the jitter. Ehh, right ;). Anyone who disagreed with him back then got flamed by cheerleading crowd.
10 months later Nutty admitted I was right, since his Cougar "...is missbehaving...". That was his personal reply to me. Along with the lines that he was told different pots would be put in the Cougar, than the ones you can find in it right now.
Anyway, it might be that for Cougar there are different standards. And rightly so. If it costs 3x the Saitek costs, it should be 3x or so times better, eh ? What is normal for Saitek should be an alarming error in Cougar, IMO.
IMO, they didn't fix the real issue, instead they added and fiddled with unnecessary features. I'd be happier if Cougar had 1 hat, 4 buttons, plastic housing and HAL pots.
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You were arrogant and offensive well before James ever mentioned education and that was only in reply to comments made by you. James has always behaved like a gentleman on those forums as has Frugal despite continued abuse from forum users like yourself and now you cry foul.
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If it costs 3x the Saitek costs, it should be 3x or so times better, eh ?
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. The extra money went for hoopty realistic looks, "rugged metal construction" and a juicy profit margin for a company repackaging a 10 year old product and raping the huddled sim masses. :)
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Originally posted by Revvin
You were arrogant and offensive well before James ever mentioned education and that was only in reply to comments made by you. James has always behaved like a gentleman on those forums as has Frugal despite continued abuse from forum users like yourself and now you cry foul.
Yup, I was. But time has proven I was right.
James' politeness isn't enough. Cougar has issues. Issues as old as TM sticks are. It is probably better than F22, but not what I hoped for.
If you search through archives of sim forums thru recent years, you'd have "pot" word jump straight to top. At least for TM sticks. Which might as well mean that everything else was OK.
Now I don't get it. TM knew about pot issue. We all knew how unreliable F22 pots were. And what did TM do ? Hope that USB would solve everything.
Why else would HAL mod be available if there wasn't pot issue ?
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My CH stuff has been on a backup computer that I really don't do any flying on for a while now. Still with the older version of the control software. Upon hearing Funkedup's notice that there's new programming software available for it, I checked it out.
A cursory look seems to show that it's as fully featured (or GASP! maybe even more so) as the TM Cougar's FOXY programming language.
On first glance though, it seemed even less intuitive than the TM stuff (and that's hard to do. :) ).
Hafta play with it a bit more to see what it's capable of.
Even if it's the equal of FOXY, I'd STILL pick the Cougar. :) The community is there to help you with any minor problems you may have. And as I've said before, the "Cool" factor is through the roof.
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Hristo, it's nice that you could simplify the whole issue like that, but it's not that simple. The control issues that plagued the F22 involved several factors, one of which was the potentiometers. Not the fact that they were pots, and not the fact that the design of the pots themselves was bad, but a problem that lied in the manufacturing process at the company who produced them.
This being a fact, it is reasonable that whoever was in charge of making the decision to use pots in the Cougar, decided to use pots of a higher quality from a different manufacturer.
Furthermore, USB CAN be a solution for a spikey pots. Spikes are momentary jumps in resistance values coming from the pots. Momentary, as in fractions of a second. Unfortunately, a game port will read these spikes and respond accordingly. However, since the values coming from the stick are polled several times a second, these erronious values can be filtered out before being sent to the computer. With a game port stick, this means extra electronics in the stick to intercept the pot signal before it is sent to the game port. With a USB stick, this already occurs since a digital signal is sent down the USB line. You simply need to impliment an algorithym that filters out the unwanted values that deviate from a reasonable rate of rise or fall of values coming from the pot. Unfortunately, it seems the new TM did not impliment anything like this on the Cougar. One further benefit of the USB port that the Cougar benefits from by default is the simple fact that the IBM-spec game port is and always has been a horribly designed interface which in itself can cause any or all of the problems seen as "pot problems".
As in the F22, I'm sure there are several things in the Cougar that could contribute to shaky control issues, including the pots. Just rattling off that it must be the pots, because pots are bad is not valid.
On the other hand, there has been a stigma going back as long as I can remember that pots = spikes & control issues, so I agree with you that the new TM should have used something besides pots the Cougar, even if it upped the retail price of the unit. I just agree for different reasons. People with experience tend to hate pots...the Cougar is a high-end product that's going to be bought by enthusiasts with previous experience with joysticks...use something else.
To your original question: It sounds like a gamble on whether or not your Cougar could have control issues. From what I've read, it will almost certainly have some play around the center, either from the start or from the break-in period. If play is something you can't stand (i can't), it can be fixed, but at additional cost out of pocket. As far as I'm concerned, the Cougar is worth its retail cost, plus the cost of getting the guts re-worked and installing the HAL sensors. You may not agree, but be aware that it's something you may have to deal with you buy one. So you know, I'm still using the stock pots, without issues.
SOB
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Originally posted by funkedup
Here ya go:
(http://www.raf303.org/mietla/cougar.jpg)
So much for "rugged metal construction". :)
This is actually a good thing, as the internals now can be easily cleaned or replaced :)
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I used an F-16 & WCSII combo for YEARS without any pot problems. I've had my Cougar for about a year with no pot problems. So, AFAIC, pots are fine. I have considered the HAL mod simply to make it more precise, though the stock setup has all of the precision I've needed.
Yes, my Cougar has about a millimeter of play in both axis' at the base of the stick. So what? I don't notice it AT ALL when actually USING the stick. Sure I can wiggle it just a touch, but it has absolutely no effect on gameplay. My CH USB Fighterstick Pro has at least as much play in the X axis. I've heard some complaints about the play in the axis', but I've yet to hear ANYONE who actually claims it effects their gameplay.
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Hristo you knew nothing of the pot composition or the manufacturer of those pots you made a few irrational posts and guessed there would be a problem, well I tell ya what I guess the world is going to end one day and perhaps if we stick around long enough you'll see I was right too :rolleyes:
Based on their tests TM had faith in the pots or in your own little world do you really believe TM used sub standard pots purposely to scam the sim playing customers out there of their hard earned cash?
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This is getting a little snippy. I should clarify that everything after my post about the new Control Manager is basically BS, just intended to have some fun with SOB and Revvin and the other metal phallus worshippers. :)
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Yeah right Funked...we all know you're still obsessing about my schlong. :p
SOB
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I should clarify that everything after my post about the new Control Manager is basically BS
Odd I thought it was everything up to and including your last post was BS :p as for Hristo I should have known better, he's just returning to type
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Does CH have any on-line community like at Cougar World? I had some questions when helping a freind set up his new CH Fighterstick and I could not find an official or fan run message boards.
Gunner
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Thanks for post, SOB. In the end it is the price - the Cougar isn't 270$, it is couple of hundred $ more.
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Well I think I am in the same boat as Doberman. I have had my Cougar for close to a year now with no 'pot' issues that I can speak of. Also I still have roughly the same amount of play around the center as I did when I took it out of the box. I measured it then and just did the same tonight. Both measurements are just over a millimeter on both the X and Y axis.
So Hristo I can't tell you to buy one or the other but having used TM and CH at various times I will say this; Since you have trouble with the TM pot issue then go with CH. I don't think you will be as happy but its your money and you asked for an opinion. I hope you get something that works nicely for you and Good Luck with your search.
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Originally posted by Hristo
In the end it is the price -
the Cougar isn't 270$,
it is couple of hundred $ more.
Funny you should mention it ;) ,
but weird that you seem* to mess it up :D :
$270 is the Cougar's price at Amazon - including IL-2 :p (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006LIO6/qid=1046161006/sr=8-7/ref=sr_8_7/002-7357724-1204801?v=glance&s=electronics&n=507846)...
(* I'll give you the benefit of the doubt :rolleyes: -
or could it be that you're not really interested in providing facts
if they don't suit your interests :p ?)
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270 $ for starter package ;).
Several hundred $ more for mods to make it work like advertised.
Anyway, the decision has been made. I'll give it a chance. The Cougar, that is. Thank God I ain't married yet ;).
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Originally posted by funkedup
This is getting a little snippy. I should clarify that everything after my post about the new Control Manager is basically BS, just intended to have some fun with SOB and Revvin and the other metal phallus worshippers. :)
Spoken like someone who entered a "who's is bigger" contest and lost.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Hristo
I'll give it a chance.
Thank God I ain't married yet ;).
Don't take it personally ;) , but consider this and be glad :D :
270 $ for starter package ;).
Several hundred $ more to make it work like advertised.
Prince charming :rolleyes: , uh?
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Originally posted by Mini D
Spoken like someone who entered a "who's is bigger" contest and lost.
MiniD
I just find it amusing, all this brand loyalty to a noodle shaped product for which the major selling points (once you get past all the hype) are size, weight, and stiffness. What would Freud say? :)
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He would say that observations often say more about the observer then the observed.
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ARE YOU CALLING ME A MEATGAZER?????????????????
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Calling someone from SF a meatgazer? Why bother?
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No, I'm calling you dense. I've been calling you a fargin' meat gazer for most of this thread, but you only now figured it out! :D
SOB
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The programmability of the TM products hooked me long ago and I use a Cougar today. That said, they aren't for everyone. There are some quirks. I had to open mine up, make a couple adjustments that involved a file. I also replaced the pots with expensive hall effect sensors. I'm now happy with it and will have a very hard time adapting to anything else when it finally dies.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Anyway, the decision has been made. I'll give it a chance. The Cougar, that is. Thank God I ain't married yet ;).
LOL, ain't that the truth. The best recommendation I can give to ya.... Hook up with the fellow on Cougar World from Australia who does the brass bushings for the guts of the Cougar. Makes it feel fantastic.
SOB
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Originally posted by SOB
No, I'm calling you dense. I've been calling you a fargin' meat gazer for most of this thread, but you only now figured it out! :D
SOB
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LOL! He's our leader :D
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That's not SOB in the picture, but it is his sheep.
MiniD
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Originally posted by SOB
LOL, ain't that the truth. The best recommendation I can give to ya.... Hook up with the fellow on Cougar World from Australia who does the brass bushings for the guts of the Cougar. Makes it feel fantastic.
SOB
Im hoping to get in on his next project . It will be a drop in replacment so I wont have down time to send it to Aus..
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Good Choice!!!!
I have both. I have been flying the CH Combat Stick Pro throttle and pro pedals for about two and a half years happily or so I thought. I still found myself using the keyboard a lot though.
So I decided this December to get the Cougar and give it a try. From the moment I took it out of the box I dug it. Every time I sat down with the CH stuff( Top Quality mind you) I always felt like I was playing a game. Once you sit behind the Cougar and feel the metal in your palms it becomes something else all together. Total immersion!!! I rarely look at the keyboard now. The Cougar is the only true HOTAS due to it's programmability.
In January I went to replace the springs with the lighter F22 springs and ran into the very cheap pots in the Cougar. The wires are gingerly soldered to the thin and tiny pot leads and one broke off. I was so pissed. My Cougar was now dead and I had to go back to my CH Setup. I missed it tremendously. The CH set up while adequate just does not have the programmability and my flying suffered.
I recommend Ian's Uber mod. Since my Cougar was down I decided to have it done and it is amazing. Not only will it drastically prolong the life of the gimbals it makes for a very smooth feel.
I am still waiting for the HAL sensors, but thank god TM was quick to get me a new pot free of charge. I got the stick gimbals back from Ian and the pot two days later and was up and running. All in all it took about a month down time to have the mod done but it was well worth the wait.
For equal dollars CH vs. Cougar, as an old CH HOTAS user, your money is better spent on the Cougar.
Mars.
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Hi ULF!
Welcome to the Aces High message boards. How is your AH setup for the Cougar going?
Gunner
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Damn... no matter how hard I might try, the CH vs TM fights just aren't as rabid as they used to be.
Though, funked is just as gay as he's always been.
MiniD