Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Yeager on July 29, 2000, 02:09:00 AM
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I dont make alot of noise regarding FMs, as a genral rule I dont know that much but! and trust me this is a big one, can you guys take a few a review the P51D?
Being in the first five FMs since beta, I cant help but wonder if the P-51D FM needs adjustment in comparison to more recent additions.
Case in point: the wings will shear off precisely at 8 Gs regardless of forward momentum. I know a little about engineering and the rated G limits always have a built in safety margin.
Also, the P47d-25 and -30 both generally outperform the P51D in all manners of BFM under 300 IAS. This somehow seems odd.
Do what you will but I genuinely feel something is off here.
Also, if you get the chance, try and add a little bit of flesh to the onset of compression, it *feels* too clean on entry and exit and seems too abrupt as a general rule.
Regards and plenty of beer,
Yeager
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Originally posted by Yeager:
?
Also, the P47d-25 and -30 both generally outperform the P51D in all manners of BFM under 300 IAS. This somehow seems odd.
Yeager, Idont want to start a flamewar here, this is a simple point:
Why do you thing that if P47 outperforms P51 in BFM is becaues P51's FM fault?...I dunno, but I've heard a lot of things here about P47's E retention.
As I said I dont know about it, Dont know enough about P47 to judge it. Still I wonder if there is something weird on P47 and not on P51.
Just a thought
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-29-2000).]
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I usually dont get involved in the FM debate but the wings on the Pony do seem a bit weak IMHO. DO I base this on any historical info..nope just compared to past versions.
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I have witnessed P 47D (the silver one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) do amazing low speed loops, barrell rolls and scissors.
Right or wrong, but there was a big "...hmmmmmmm, but....." at those times for me.
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
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oh and no mention of the 190 which is supposed to be superior to the spitv and equal to the spit IX outzooming both easily in fact it outzooms the p38, p47 p51 190g10 spit IX n1k2 a6m5 205 202 b17 b26.
but thats how it really was compared to all these planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) hahaha
btw you guys see that Nuremburg movie on TV?
pretty good.
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Yup.. wing rips and pops are common again. Even experienced pony pilots have noted an odd rebirth of wingitus. Even nearly empty wing tanks will force a wing rip at absurdly low g loads. Compresson onset is mighty wierd.. no buffet at all; and it and seems to happen at lower speeds. E retention is also notably poor compared to other less 'clean' airframes.
Yeagers right.. comparitive FM's need a look.
Thanks for looking into it HTC!
Hang
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Originally posted by Citabria:
oh and no mention of the 190 which is supposed to be superior to the spitv and equal to the spit IX outzooming both easily in fact it outzooms the p38, p47 p51 190g10 spit IX n1k2 a6m5 205 202 b17 b26.
but thats how it really was compared to all these planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) hahaha
btw you guys see that Nuremburg movie on TV?
pretty good.
I believe p47 outzooms 190
190g10 is not included in AH planeset, so we don't know if it is ouzoomed by anything
you also forget it outzooms the Panzer IV
Was it that old version of Nürnberg movie (with Maximilian Schell, if I remember right) ? Still, I think it is somewhat longish and rather boring.
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Stoickov
JG54 "Grünherz"
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-29-2000).]
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It was a new "TNT" version, starring Alec Baldwin. It was pretty good.
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You should say that P-47 FM has something wrong and compare it to P-51, not compare P-51 to P-47 as if P-51 would have something wrong (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
That P-47 is amazing for that what I've thought, even more amazing than it ever were in WB (and I flew *alot* P-47D in WB).
I thought that 109 with all the advantages would give a big kick for P-47, but no, when
I tried it in AH, I survived even advantage spitfires, making turns and loops with those for a little (but still too long) moment, even at low altitude. (and ops, I have too often fought with empty center droptank still attached to fuselage)
Shouldn't P-47 at 3-7k be dead P-47 for almost any other fighter? (at least more deaths than 1:1 K/D I would figure)
..but.. as old P-47 flier from WBs, I like this P-47 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 07-29-2000).]
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I like the 47 too. Very much. For too long all Jug lovers had to fly online were the 'porked' AW and WB's models. For the first time I feel like the Jug is performing close to what it should. Low and slow it is dead meat for just about any airplane being piloted by the most average of online pilots. But low and FAST it's not an easy pick off.
And upstairs (25K, 30K plus) it really is at home and it rules. As it did in real life.
-Westy
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<<<Case in point: the wings will shear off precisely at 8 Gs regardless of forward momentum.>>>
8 Gs is 8 Gs, regardless of forward momentum. When they want to test the structural limit of a plane's wings they load sandbags on it till something breaks.
I read somewhere that the US Navy required fighters to be capable of 7 Gs, I don't know what the US Army required.
<<<Also, the P47d-25 and -30 both generally outperform the P51D in all manners of BFM under 300 IAS.>>>
I think with similar fuel loads I would give the edge to the P-51, but it's close. I can understand the Jug having more docile handling at high-AoA and low speeds, the P-51's 'laminar' airfoil was not optimized for high AoA. The main characteristic the Jug has is incredible E retention. Since E retention is not quantified anywhere, there's no way to point to a chart and settle which plane should have what level of E retention. So we have FM's as different as the Tiffie, which fights in the vertical like its dragging an anchor, and the Jug, which flys like it's filled with helium.
ra
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Ra,
the only point I would make is that the official rated limit for the P51D was 8 Gs positive and that all aeronautical engineering builds in a margin of safety
on any published specification. If 8 Gs is the published spec then I would like to think it could exceed that by some margin.
Im not sure why I am having this problem. Its always the P51 that I shed wings from.
Maybe there is no problem, I could just be perceiving things out of sorts, thats entirely possible. I just wanted to voice myself for the record.
FWIW, Im pretty comfortable with spits, 109s, 190s, 202s and 205s, zekes, jugs, all the heavies, everything seems about where they should be except for the P51 and again, its probably just me.....
Yeager
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Mebbe so yeag.. I just took a week off; so I kinda expected the pony to feel 'different'.
Nontheless; I was shocked at how fast my poor ponys wings popped and it seemed to compress a lost faster and more abruptly than I 'remember'. Mebbe it could use a look-see.
Whats this nonsense about the Jug anyway? Thought we was talkin bout ponies. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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I've always understood that there was a 50% safety margin built into the G load limit, so a wing rated for 8 G's will fail at 12.
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Yeager,
You are probably right regarding civilian aircraft, but in wartime I doubt engineers built in any safety margin. Also, an 8 G limit is nothing to sneeze at.
BTW, how do you know the wings are breaking off at 8 Gs when you would be blacked out long before that? Whenever I pull the wings off a plane I'm not even completely blacked out, so they probably pop off before 6 Gs.
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ra - they go and retrieve the "black box" flight recorder from the wreckage of their Mustang.
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Tis a dirty job too.. what with the fuselage tent pegged into all that sheepsh*t..
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'd like to see some numbers to back up the AH's E retention of P47.
Wells did a comparison a while back on some planes in WB and most of the US plane ( aka. big fat brick with huge engine ) didn't come out too well.
I really start to wonder when i dive on 47 in spitfire and not only he tunrs with me but also outaccelerates me.
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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I think the p51 isnt broke
I think the latest planes are still new and havent been tweaked to fit in perfectly with the other fine tuned flight models
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Usually wing will suffer structucal damages first, then it will reduce your max Gs, if you don't want to totally rip off your wings..
8Gs in P-51 probably does structucal damages on wing which may cause weakness on future Gs...
Like in Spitfire, it had some recommendation to not pull over 6Gs or wings might suffer structucal damages.
I would like to see that in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think that hits on you might weaken your wings, even if hits does not do damage.
Once I had P-47D filled up with pings but still flying allright, then I pulled something 2.5G and *WHAM* both wings off and I was wondering a bit.. (had couple smokes coming out but not the one with fire (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 07-29-2000).]
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Gotta say the Jug pulls some wierd toejam.
I've had E on a guy, watch him go up, do a wingover, zoomed past him, the jug completes wingover levels and then goes vertical after me, catches me, blammo I'm feeding daisies.
Sorta hard to describe but it sure had me scratching my head (damn lice).
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Hmmmm... I don't disagree with yah cit.. the pony does not seem 'broke''.. just unusually weak with the wings; and the compression stuff seems kinda odd. I tend to agree that the newer planes in the sim ain't been fine-tuned in their FM's yet to reflect their place in the line-up; but that's not what I'm wondering about.
I sure ain't the expert on other plane types.. but AFAIK; no other plane in the sim pops wings off like the pony does.. this sure wasn't something I ever heard about being a problem on the P51 in RL. Maybe there's a decimal outta place or something. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for the compression stuff.. sure I'd expect it to compress.. after some kinda buffet, and at higher speeds than it crops up now. We all feel wind shear/boundry effect buffet on alt transitions.. but nothin for compression. There's no buffet; no sound indicator; high-pitched shriek (except from the pilot) or whistle or any other cue to warn the pilot he's close to compression. Just dead controls; then a wing groan... kinda odd I think. If I have enuff alt; I can usually save a compress with trims and throttle chop.. but it's still commin on to soon I think.
I'm just suggesting a look-see.. not trying to entice a LW flame war. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Hang (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Tweak the joystick settings....something not found on real life fighter aircraft (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Cyas Up!
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/rude.gif)
[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 07-30-2000).]
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Originally posted by Vulcan:
Gotta say the Jug pulls some wierd toejam.
I've had E on a guy, watch him go up, do a wingover, zoomed past him, the jug completes wingover levels and then goes vertical after me, catches me, blammo I'm feeding daisies.
Sorta hard to describe but it sure had me scratching my head (damn lice).
Barrel roll or rolling scissors- and if you blew by him too deep and tried to pull up to recover he sure would have the energy to catch you in his guns long enough to kill you. This won't just happen with the P-47, just about any plane in the set can use the maneuver to reverse a defense into offense if the the pursuing plane isn't watching what is going on. The 109's especially excel at this maneuver. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hang.
We were noting some wierd behavior with the 190 a few weeks ago. Wing loss seemed to be extremely easy if you applied any aileron at all in a pull up. Dont know if the pony issue is releated or not.
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Wells,
in aircraft design a 1.5 SF is used, but that is at manufacture. This saftey factor will decrease as the airframe ages due to things like creep.
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We're going to be looking at some flight model issues soon. The plane shouldn't break at 8 Gs though, at least not every time. Under certain conditions it's probably possible, but I'll take a look it.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Exactly what I was looking for Pyro!
In the finale analysis what any particular FM is doing does not matter as long as I know you folks are cuddling the little babes!
Thnx,
Yeager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Thanks Pyro. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
As for the compression stuff.. sure I'd expect it to compress.. after some kinda buffet, and at higher speeds than it crops up now. We all feel wind shear/boundry effect buffet on alt transitions.. but nothin for compression. There's no buffet; no sound indicator; high-pitched shriek (except from the pilot) or whistle or any other cue to warn the pilot he's close to compression. Just dead controls; then a wing groan... kinda odd I think.
I posted a thread in the aircraft section of this board along these lines, and maybe i didnt explain it properly but everyone just told me: "live with it". But i still think its odd how it just comes on instantly (quite literally) without warning, noises, creaks, buffeting etc.
I dont normally get the wing pop thing, in fact i can't remember when that last happened to me, i always get that weird compression and auger. To prove the point i dived down after a 109 from about 15K, i was on 0% throttle and slipping with rudder to control speed. I was making ground on him slowly, then all of a sudden compression hits me, i plummet 6K into the deck and the 109 pulls out of the dive. Something aint right there.
Overlord Spatula
=357th Pony Express=
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I have also noted a lot of wing seperations in the pony recently. It has happned to me as I was turning. I wasn't cranking on the elevators but started to turn to follow a bandit at 300 knots. If I had suddenly yanked back to full deflection of the elevator I would expect some dificulties. Ripping the wings at only 300 by banking is more than a little wierd however. And my stick IS scaled. I don't get full deflection until the very last part of the stick motion.
The pony also seems to suffer from a lack of altitude performance. It seems to be capable only of wallowing over 23k, much less flying BFM. This seems to be very different from the descriptions I have read of the 51's performance at altitude. This was America's premier high alt bird. It should outperform the jug up high, not the other way around IMO.
I know laminar flow has it's disadvantages. But not at speed. It should be stable and provide plenty of lift for BFM even at alt as long as the speed is up above the stall. I have a plane with a laminar flow wing and it's fine until you stall it. The main thing to remember about it is that the wing stops flying rather abruptly rather than gradually as do other wing designs. It lets you know it's starting to quit but it is not as "forgiving" about continuing on if you don't "listen" to it.
I may be wrong, but I think the pony is not performing as it should. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/mav13.jpg)
No Mercy Asked, None Given, Just pass the ammo
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 07-30-2000).]
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This was America's premier high alt bird. It should outperform the jug up high, not the other way around IMO.
Not true. Both the P-38 and P-47 had better turbo-supercharged engines at high alt. Fact is, the higher the P-47 went, the better it got vs. contemporary fighters.
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While looking into P-51's G models, I recommend checking of F4u's wingtips too..
Quite easily loses wingtips with low speed pulls..
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hello all:
i did not read all the thread, but does anybody else think the spit wings rip off way to easy, i have had wings rip off with just a little turn and woundered what the heck was going on. well maybe it is just me.
wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
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Originally posted by wolf37:
hello all:
i did not read all the thread, but does anybody else think the spit wings rip off way to easy, i have had wings rip off with just a little turn and woundered what the heck was going on. well maybe it is just me.
wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
I've heard that spitfrie wings should be more prone for damage under high Gs than other fighters...
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The funny thing is, wings almost never pop off my planes.
I did lose the wings off an A5 the other day, but hey, I almost never fly it and I was diving hard. I didn't think much of it.
I have never lost a wing in a Spitfire due to overstress.
Seems odd it happens to many, and not to many at the same time. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Originally posted by Kieren:
The funny thing is, wings almost never pop off my planes.
I did lose the wings off an A5 the other day, but hey, I almost never fly it and I was diving hard. I didn't think much of it.
I have never lost a wing in a Spitfire due to overstress.
Seems odd it happens to many, and not to many at the same time. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
I've had no problems in spitfrie or other either, but in F4u-1c I did break both wingtips after I made diving attack on panzers top after 120mph climb and 250mph pull up speed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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A lot of the wing rip conditions are surely related to stick spikes and stick scalings.
Once you get familiar with a plane type; you tend to know where it is that you cross that line. One easy way to stay outta trouble is with the black-out feature.. I use it as my 'heads-up' g-meter. Pull to black and the wings are gone. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Even a small stick spike when you are this close to the 'edge' (wherever that is in your plane) and *POP*.
Anyway; what I'm seeing is 'whats diffrent'. I'm losing wings a mite more frequently than before; and I'm not pushing the plane as close to 'the edge' when they come off. Still using the same scaling I've used for 8 months; and it's set up for e-fighting. I get no chatter or spikes in my j-test program; windows setup or in the sim stick setups. I check it often.
Hang
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I wonder if everyone knows the exact G figure when there wings rip off or they compress. I have been flying WB for a few years now and have just began flying in AH. I have noticed that its hard to judge speed in this SIM. Is this a graphics issue? Is there a thread regarding his?
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I've never actually ripped the wings off any plane in AH, but maybe that's just my flying style. The compression is kinda odd, though. It's just as if someone threw a switch, disconnecting your controls, and then as the speed goes down, connecting them again. Shouldn't it be more gradual? I haven't flown fast enough to experience compression IRL, nor do I ever want to (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Rickenbacker
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Finally ripped a set of wings off the day before yesterday.
P-47D Jabo run with 1,000lbers, dropped the bombs just as I was nearing compression, slight pull on the stick...
SNAP!
And my aircraft followed the eggs right into the enemy's burning hanger.
Of course it couldn't have been the fact that my "slight" pull at that speed and attitude, literally pegged the G meter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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From my reading they gave a safety specification 1 and 1/2 G less than the test pilots would stress the aircraft. From the former test pilots they would take the planes up, make sure it would do the basic manuvers (shake the plane to make sure everything was in place.) Then stunt it taking it to the redline of every specification. Ergo a plane rated for 8 Gs should take 9.5 which I know factory test pilots would stress the plane too.
Erik Shilling who test piloted the P-47 recounted a story about an army pilot who dove a jug and it started shaking, so he bailed. Erik said that he had, had several jugs shake up prior to compression, but decreasing the angle of the dive made the problem go away, increasing the angle repeated the problem. After landing he checked and found the antenna loose. He borrowed a wrench and tightend the antenna and the plane was fine after that. He checked several more planes, but never thought that it would be a problem, it was just a loose antenna. Anyhow the Army Pilot haveing bailed caused a big stir with Republic, and they were very thankfull for Erik finding the problem (even if he was a bit remiss in not mentioning it before the incedent with the army pilot occured.)
From what I have read, the P-47 should out perform the pony in roll and on horizontal type manuvers. I don't remember reading the Jug as having great e-retention, but it should out accelerate the pony and out flat turn it. The pony should have the jug in verticals. The Hog should have both in S-Turns but the Jug should have the advantage over the Pony.
I don't remember his name but on the history channel a WWII Pilot said.
"All those pretty turns, spirals and manuvers look good in an airshow, but will get you killed real quick in combat."
Avoid any manuver that doesn't involve E when flying U.S. Aircraft and you will do well.
U.S. Pilots said that the Early P-40 was by far the best U.S. Turn fighter of the War. Ergo DON'T TURN FIGHT IN U.S. AIRCRAFT!
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
[This message has been edited by Downtown (edited 07-31-2000).]