Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: udet on February 25, 2003, 02:14:27 PM
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For those who have no or very little flight training- do you think you can fly a simple plane, like a Cessna, after 'training extensively' in flight simulators, either civilian or military?
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Fly, Yes. Landing now is a whole other matter :)
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Yes.
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Staying in the air is easy- getting into it and coming down out of it, that's a whole other ball game.
Military or civilian simulators, sure, as they require you to go through evey procedure you would in the real world version of the plane.... but PC based, no.
-SW
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Agree with Jimbear...I've taken off in a Cessna and flown it around a bit (with some help in terms of radio chatter with the tower etc). They didn't let me land though...which probably explains why I am still breathing.:)
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I flew (not legally) before flight sims, since age 10. We had a Piper cub. :) Naturally Dad was always right there in case I did something stoo-pid.
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Yea.... I flew out of a tree once chasing a certain squirrel that will remain namless. Even when I flapped my arms really quick I didnt fly. The screaming as I bounced off limb after limb did slow my decent some, errr maybe it was just the limbs.
So yea... I can fly... and this before home PC where more than a sci fi dream.
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i saw this program on tv where this guy who had never flone before, even in games, was asked to fly a plane which ment he had to take off and land by himself. All he had for training was 4 hours on a flight simulatur game. He did make it. As for the show, it was Worst Case Senario. Thats a prettyt good show:D
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I was in the coach section of a 737 when the stewer.. flight attendant came running breathlessly back to the passenger area.
"Can anyone here fly an airplane?" she shouted. "Both pilots have passed out from bad coffee!"
I looked around to see if any hands were raised, but there were none.
I sheepishly volunteered that I had thousands of hours in a simulation. She immediately grabbed me, kissed me and hustled me up to the cockpit er flight deck.........
Then I woke up.
:p
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watching "Airplane" too much lately?
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yes and no...
flight simulator (MS style) is pretty accurate with regards to having all the correct controls, traffic patterns, etc.. however... it isn't like RL in regards to getting the 'feel' of an airplane...
I've flown my uncle's plane many times, but I'll be damned if he'll let me land it! :)
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A cessna or something simple, probably. I'd need a new pair of shorts afterwards tho :D
Something big like a 747 or something like that, I'd be willing to try it if I was the only one on board. That way, when I auger, its just me......
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I can fly. I can reach around 90km/h forward motion, while at the same time flying at 220km/h downwards.
And my chute functions as landing gear. It's easy.
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Originally posted by batdog
Yea.... I flew out of a tree once chasing a certain squirrel that will remain namless. Even when I flapped my arms really quick I didnt fly. The screaming as I bounced off limb after limb did slow my decent some, errr maybe it was just the limbs.
So yea... I can fly... and this before home PC where more than a sci fi dream.
Too much CPP. It added too much drag.
Cobra
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I've flown a B-17G(Nine O' Nine) for about 10 mintues and I even got to bring it around 180 degrees, but I didn't get to take off or land. It was easier than I thought to fly and even turn. Needless to say, I had a woody the size of a giant Sequoia.
:D
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too much information there stony
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From experience taking off and flying around is fairly simple IMO, landing can be a bit hairy depending on crosswinds. When I was going for flight lessons in a piper cherokee, there was a 20knot crosswind and gusting to 25. The instructer and myself fought the controls to get it down safely, but man what an experience.
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Easy answer - No. AH doesn't model the actual ignition sequence.
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MS Flight Simulator will do a much better job of teaching you to fly than AH. However, nothing short of a full motion professional simulator can prepare you for the actual experience.
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I honestly think that i could fly something with a really light wing loading and low powered engine with super simple controls and avionics.
Say a DeHavilland Tiger Moth or like Rip's Dad's J-3.
I think that flying such a simple aircraft wouldnt be that hard, but there is so much more to flying than keeping the plane in the air.
If i flew anymore than 100 miles from where i live i would be lost. I think i could calculate landmarks and roadways about that far to know where in hell I was, but after that i would be screwed. Not to mention if i had to fly at night.
Then there is all the fuel mixture stuff you have to worry about. Think i could get a grasp on that with brief instruction but to just jump in i think i might have some trouble.
The only experience i have with planes are flight sims and i was HEAVY into RC when i was younger. Plus i have gone through most of my grandpa's notes from when he was in flight school.
So if i was given a simple plane, close to home, during the day, with little or no wind. Yeah, I'd say i could do it.
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Yes.
I had chatted to my instructor that I was 'into' Flight Sims and for some reason he had a lot of faith in me?! So when I had my first lesson in a Cessna 152 he let me take off and have complete control. He helped me land my first approach, I rolled again did another circuit and landed myself.
Second lesson was in a Piper Warrior, different instructor, wasn't so easy going! Only let me take off and fly around, shadowed me down for the land.
Hardest thing I found was the rudder pedals, I wasn't using them on my sim at the time so I found that side completely new.
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The only hard thing with flying is flaring at the right altitude. In a plane such as a Cessna, you can do it terribly wrong and the plane will forgive you and put you safely on the ground.
Just don't try it with an unstable taildragger or you will most definitely get hurt.
Daniel
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Flight sims definitely help.
When I started working on my glider rating I had not flown a "real" airplane in 20 years (started power lessons but never finished). I did have hundreds (perhaps thousands :cool: ) of sim hours. My first flight, I was on the controls for launch, tow, thermaling, and landing. My instructor was extremely surprised (I didn't bother to tell him about the sim hours :D ). I solo'ed in half the number of flights that most of his students required.
The most natural part of the flight for me was the tow...all I had to do was stay on the tow plane's six! I'd had lots of practice doing that. ;)
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Yes.
I did my 1st landing on my 2nd lesson.
Soloed at a little under 5 hours.
I don't think im a natural. It was just like flyin in AH or FS2002 or all the other flightsims ive done over the years.
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I started the process for my ppl about a year after I started playing AH, and every instructor I rode with remarked that I seemed very comfortable with the plane and that I knew what I was doing. It was even kinda fun at the end of the day to go back and practice landing patterns in AH. I don't know if I could have done my first flight entirely on my own with nothing but AH to draw on, but it certainly wasn't a mind-boggling brown shorts kind of experience either. It just felt natural to be up in the air.
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I think you could fly a Cessna very easily after extensive sim experience. I would also think that you could somewhat handle something like a 737 in a full motion simulator.
OTOH when i took my glider course, my sim experience wasn't too helpful...I had flown with a twist rudder before and as sailplanes reguire much more precise rudder imputs than any other planes, I really had trouble keeping the ball centered. I think I made my 10th flight without any instructor input. After the course I immediately ordered SIMPED pedals because I couldnt fly with the twist anymore and it would propably have spoiled my pedalwork too..:)
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Why would you want to be able to fly?
It's too expensive to take a plane up, bail out, repeat. Much easier to have some idiots who want to be meat bomb drivers so they can log flying time.
Flying is for suckers. *Falling* is where the charm is.
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You guys that think you can fly after playing a game online are too funny! Do your passengers a favor and leave them on the ground to live, they may have family.
Btw, even on the REMOTE, OUTSIDE, possibility that you could
land the damn thing, throw in a 5knot wind and all yer SIM
time is moot.
I thought I could land a plane just from reading books on flight
when I was a kid....
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I had the licence before discovering AirSims.
In my first flight i managed the take off and the landing circuit, but instructor took controls in the finals.
Managed to land on second flight, after the lesson on the stall, was an intensive experience, indeed (worried so much!)
What was very difficult for me at the beginning was the pedals on ground.
My instructor (he flew on MC205, too :eek: ) said I was a natural talent... wasted now (no money to proceed further) :(
I tend to believe that he was overestimating me, since in AH I suck soo much!! :)
Anyway, if you look at the today's AirSims, there's almost nothing missing, except an importan thing:
Your... bellybutton (in Italian make sense, I dont know in english).
It means "the phisical sensations that your ride comunicate to you thru your body".
All the FlightSims give you only visual informations (and little more, with the forcefeedback sticks).
I guess it's possible to up a plane having only flightsims experience.... even the landing can be done, with a sensible risk.
I mean with REAL flightsim experience, not the "up, furball, die" AH common experience ;)
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One thing that can happen to you when flying for the first time coming from a flightsim environment is that you tend to pay more attention to the instruments than to the plane attitude.
My instructor pointed it out to me a couple of times, but luckily it was not necessary to put discs in front of the instruments to check if I was flying truly visual :)
Here's a video I took of a flyby of a mountain nearby the field I fly from and the final and landing on RWY 31 (900yds). You have probably seen it as I posted it in another thread.
http://casal.upc.es/~danig27/molaaprox31.wmv
Daniel
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You guys that think you can fly after playing a game online are too funny!
Well there was this kid in my gliding course who had never been in a real plane before but had a lot of MSFS time and he mastered his plane from the very first flight. According to all the instructors I have spoke with say that instructing is very easy today because a lot of people have done flight sims.
Do your passengers a favor and leave them on the ground to live, they may have family.
Btw, even on the REMOTE, OUTSIDE, possibility that you could
land the damn thing, throw in a 5knot wind and all yer SIM
time is moot.
Is anyone suggesting that you can pilot a plane SAFELY? Handling a plane is no more harder than riding a bicycle, but doing it safely is entirely different matter. Most difficult part in flying is obeying rules, communications etc.
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Flying ?
yes :) as a former glider pilot I'll have no trouble flying but more with engine management, radio procedure (and IFR obvioulsy :D)
Here it's "piloter aux fesses" Naso ;)
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Originally posted by loser
I honestly think that i could fly something with a really light wing loading and low powered engine with super simple controls and avionics.
Say a DeHavilland Tiger Moth or like Rip's Dad's J-3.
I think that flying such a simple aircraft wouldnt be that hard, but there is so much more to flying than keeping the plane in the air.
So if i was given a simple plane, close to home, during the day, with little or no wind. Yeah, I'd say i could do it.
Going over my mental checklist for "stable" airplanes with light wing loading and the tiger moth does not come to mind. high wing loading and a great way to kill a new pilot out for his first trip around the patch. The most simple airplane to land ive found is a Cessna 152, for some reason even my first flight in that lightweight (compared to a 172, 182, 172RG) ive yet to ever hear/feel the wheels touch the ground. Its worth the extra hour drive to the FBO that has a 152 available to rent, even if its just for the carefree greasers.
Thinking back now...::scratching chin and waves come over my life and i am transported into a dream::
As a fresh student pilot with nothing but Sim experience with the exception of hitching rides in a stearman as a younger boy...i found a few things came easy. Altitude holding, stalls, use of rudder, and all kinds of turns. flipping to the first page of my logbook in a 0.8 intro flight written in chicken scratch is "Aircraft Familiarity, Straight & Level, Climbs, Descents, Steep Turns, Stalls" Not bad for my first less than an hour? One more thing set me ahead of the pack as far as soloing (First solo...first page of the logbook also...ready to go at 7 hours) was the use of radio. It never hit me keying a button on my joystick and talking into a microphone to my squaddies made me comfortable on the radios and never experienced "mic fright" which plagues many student pilots who are timid on the radios. Asking around a bit when my initial CFI and myself had a conversation about it, we decided that the use of voice communication in an Air Warrior or Aces High type simulator did the trick and broke in that there is a person on the other end and can make you less nervous thinking so "is the word Super Duper official radio lingo?" As far as my first landing, well...like many student pilots (read ALL) coming in over the numbers a little hot (75 knots...not bad) and flared a little high (50 feetish?) and the cfi salvaged the landing with a slight bump after doing a move you would expect to see while breakdancing instead of flying. In short, flying in a game or a simulator will not help you land, but it will help you get through your training a little faster. i am a firm believer in MSFS 2k2 for instrument "training" (flying an ILS, flying a VOR or NDP approach at minimums without spending 90-100-110 dollars an hour for a plane and Double I) A good supplemental tool, yes. Substitute for actual flying, instruction, and time in the logbook...not by a long shot.
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Could I keep a plane in the air? Sure. Could I land or take off? No. Fly on instruments? No. Attempt a rolling scissor followed by a flawlessly executed hammerhead stall? Eh.. no.
Am I gonna die? Dunno, but Ill let you know when I start racking up hours towards my CFI this summer. :D
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I think I could take off and land in a plane... provided there was no crosswind and I had a straight in no obstacle aproach. Basically, under ideal conditions, I could do it... just like AH... which is always ideal conditions.
Anything other than that and I seriously doubt it... to the point of being confident I couldn't do it without some serious flight training.
MiniD
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
One thing that can happen to you when flying for the first time coming from a flightsim environment is that you tend to pay more attention to the instruments than to the plane attitude.
Actually, I disagree. When I first started power lessons when I was a teenager, I always had my head in the cockpit. My instructor would frequently remind me to get my eye off the artificial horizon. Part of the reason I stopped taking flying lessons, aside from money, was that I just was not very good at it, even though I loved it.
20 years later, I took up flying again with glider lessons. Flying combat sims taught me to keep my eye looking outside...I almost never look at the instruments when flying a combat sim since you loose SA. As a result, the only time I looked at the instruments when I stepped into a real cockpit was to check airspeed on landing...and once I got used to the plane, I did not even bother looking at them at all...I could tell how fast I was going by the sound of the air over the plane. Now gliders do have one heads-up instrument and that is the slip indicator, which is a peice of string taped to the canopy, and I still use that occasionally to help make coordinated turns. Fying gliders is all about e management and making uncoordinated turns really bleeds e.
One other thing about sims that I've noticed: I also am an amateur racecar driver (track days, autocross, etc). Recently, I've seen newbie youngsters (20 year olds) showing up to SCCA events and in less than a year of experience they start kicking the veteran driver's tulips (including mine and I'm an instructor). I've been in the sport for nearly 15 years and only in the past 5 have I seen newbies do so well. I finally asked one of the 20 year olds, who has kicked me all season long, how he learned to drive so well in such a short time. I figured he had been driving karts since he was 5 years old or something. But he said that he played Gran Turismo...you should have seen my jaw drop. When he stepped into our sport he already knew how to look ahead and how to correct oversteer using steering inputs and throttle. All he had to do was learn his car. I quickly learned that he and all his 20 year old buddies play GT together all the time. Any driving instructor will tell you the best way to become faster is seat time. These kids had tons of seat time before the first day they hit the track.
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The one thing my instructor was surprised at was my SA! I was constantly looking all around me and then having a glimpse at my dials. Little did he know I was looking out for Rook/Nit bastiges ;)
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the lack of a twisty stick may throw some off :)
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
One thing that can happen to you when flying for the first time coming from a flightsim environment is that you tend to pay more attention to the instruments than to the plane attitude.
hehe Cyrano, that's exactly what happened to me on my first flight :)
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My first time with a flight instructor was my last when I asked:
"So, does this joystick have FORCE FEEDBACK??"
:)
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I agree the biggest thing missing is the feel, in gliding for instance I would never look at the variometer, a bit of negative g then a soft, sometimes hard kick in the butt indicating a thermal.
I've flown right and back seat for SE since I was 3 years old, flown gliders, power from a Tiger Moth and Grummon Goose on up to SE's 402, but my greatest thrill was his Pitts S2A. Aerobatic flying is nearly all out of cockpit reference and I believe sims teach you the mental basics, procedures etcetera. With a control tower helping in an emergency, a good simmer would have a good shot at walking away from a landing, solo, man he'd be lucky.
There's no auto level for when you get in trouble and no auto take-off, but, you know about torque and how to deal with it, someone without the sim experience wouldn't have a clue. Sims teach what the gauges do, what they look like, all very important basics.
Psyco
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Got PPL license here, also GPL. Not so many hours but when I got my hands on old DC-9 full motion night vision sim I managed to take off , fly and land it manually.. acvtually that DC9 is easier to land than any plane in IL2, in which I always collapse my landing gears.. Got 5 free hours in that sim, was a blast! Finnish CAA paid everything, was a part of my ATC training ...
When I started I had lots of hours in sims, and on the first flight in sailplane I almost managed to get it inverted, never had thought that you need so much "foot" on that thing.. (It has almost to be floored...)
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the lack of a twisty stick may throw some off
lol that's soo true.. I forgot some guys still 'fly' that way.
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I think flight sims helped me quite a bit when I was getting my Flight training towards my PPL especially AH helped me somewhat since the plane I did most of my training in was a lo wing PA-28 it helped me deal with ground effect,torque power on and power off stalls which amazingly enough in RL were more like AH 1.03 although to a lesser degree (no 2k hp engine :( ) . I progressed a whole lot and I did solo at 10 hours compared to my class avg of 17+ hrs,the the ticket itself took me longer for reasons out of my control.
Now I'm flying a Cessna 172RG it's a fun lil kite much more responsive and it glides like a shrecker(I like that compared to the 28 that dropped like a rock) it has a less powerful engine,about 10hp less than the Archer, but I am told it's a much mroe cleaner aircraft and that's why it glides and flies the way it does. I was a little picky about renting an aircraft coming from a PA-28 but now I'm fully confident of my abilities and of the plane I'm flying now and I hope I'll make much more stick time now that I have been checked out in the C172, I love it :D
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Nother question..How many of you AH dudes think you could fly and land a 40 sized R/C trainer without training?
A:I did.Age 14...Sig Cadet...Landed 1/2 mile away and it bounced to a stop against a neighbour's wire fence in 1 piece..:D
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jeeezus a .40 trainer.. fer chrissakes you coulda closed the throttle and yer eyes, taken yer grubby paws off the sticks and the damn thing would land safe.
;)
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Pretty sure I could. I had a chance to fly a Texan (with a qualified pilot in a back seat of course). I found out that it is much easier to fly a real plane than a sim. You feel the G forces and "kind of" know what to do.
The pilot was doing the landing an take-off routine, But I realy felt at home. I could do it myself, no sweat.
Texan is a real dream to fly.
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If it's a case of taking over while in flight.......yeah, it's a doddle.
My Mothers boss was part owner in a two seat trainer P40, when I was 14 he took me flying for a day and actually gave me the stick for a few mins.
However, if it's a case of taking off from a cold start then......well no. Asside from all the nuances of a take off I'd prolly need the manual just to work out how to start the damn thing.
As for a landing........well I reckon I could have a damn good try at being talked down. In a light aircraft I think as long as the flaps were a really obvious switch and it had fixed gear then I could prolly walk away from it.......dunno about the plane though. Of course it would also be the longest, most nervous and bouncy landing ever seen.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Originally posted by mora
You guys that think you can fly after playing a game online are too funny!
Is anyone suggesting that you can pilot a plane SAFELY? Handling a plane is no more harder than riding a bicycle, but doing it safely is entirely different matter. Most difficult part in flying is obeying rules, communications etc.
No, the hardest part about flying is landing. Thats where you die.
As far as flying, its easy. Most folks can keep her straight and level after 5 mins.
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"Nother question..How many of you AH dudes think you could fly and land a 40 sized R/C trainer without training?"
SirLoin,
Flew RC planes for better part of 31 years, and I remember vividly the first solo, without my instructor around (know it all 16 year-old -me-). Take-off was easy, flying a bit scarey, never did get to try landing, radio was a free-bee from a family friend and it died. It was a Lanier Comet 60 and it looked so nice heading off into the sunset at about 300 feet S&L. Found it with her nose about 2' into the ground.
I instructed for about 10 years and my problem students were those with PLs, quite different without the "feel". I've had a lot fun with RC over the years, I have been away from it for a couple of years but kind of getting the itch again...............
Psyco :D
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I have a tiger trainer 40 as my first powered model.
Without training is a fair 50 x 50 chance u can do it.
I took the last 50 % :(
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fffreeze220....
Yep, usually the case without an instructor. Another thing I enjoy/fear is test flying other peoples planes, and trimming them out. I remember one that after climbing out a bit required full right aileron for S&L, I had to use trim and rudder to turn and bring it back. Kind of like loseing a wing-tip and aileron in AH, same idea.
But even experience doesn't always help, just ask SE (my Dad). He spent 4 months building a gorgeous Dave Brown Patricia 60, Rom-air retracts, the whole shooting match, I test flew it, fast about 110mph gear up out of a split-S, but she was trimmed and balanced for upright orientation.... I was in a club competition and was doing an inverted high speed pass and..... oops, not enough down elevator to keep her level.... you should see what a 8' high field of corn stalks do to a foam and fibreglass RC doing about 100mph. Really sad part, my Dad was front center as one of the judges.....:eek: Somehow he has never forgotten(foregiven) me for that one.
Psyco
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ups. :rolleyes:
Yea i crashlanded myself. The good thing was a good friend of mine is quiet good with wood and modell building. We fixed the plane and it looks as nice as it was before.
I am looking forward to learn with a trainer as soon as the weather is getting better :D :D
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Originally posted by 2stony
I've flown a B-17G(Nine O' Nine) for about 10 mintues and I even got to bring it around 180 degrees, but I didn't get to take off or land. It was easier than I thought to fly and even turn. Needless to say, I had a woody the size of a giant Sequoia.
:D
I flew in the Nine O' Nine, but they wouldn't let me fly. Had a moderate woody when we landed. Smoothest landing I have ever experienced. 20 years of AF service and lots of commercial flights. These guys greased it right in, not even a bounce or wheel chirp.