Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hawklore on February 26, 2003, 05:07:41 PM
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Any tips on what brand to buy? Whats a good gun, protective gear company?
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I started out with a Tippman model 98. Reliable as heck, lots of mods available, very nice trigger for a stock entry-level gun. I've tried spyders and piranhas and a few of the spyder knockoffs. I still think my Tippman was the best purchase I could have made in the under-$200 category. There are tippman 98 customs and who knows what else out there now... I haven't tried any of those. But I'd definately give them a strong look... don't underestimate the importance of having a gun that fires every time you pull the trigger.
I later moved on to an autococker... expensive ($400 bucks plus mods), finicky, but accurate and quiet as all heck (and it looks sweet). However, fires slowly and breaks a lot of balls if you don't put $200 in trigger work into it. I was planning on doing this kind of work to it, but my interest in the sport waned before I got the money saved. Now it's mostly a novelty that I show to uncles and other guests.
I still go out about once or twice a year, and take both guns. I usually play with the cocker until it breaks a ball. You have to clean it so thoroughly that the cleaning downtime isn't worth it... so I switch to the reliable old tippman. It doesn't have the prestige of the expensive and finicky autococker, but it fires right almost every time, and I don't have to worry about hitting it against something and causing hundreds of dollars in damage.
As for facemasks, I use a JT Spectra Thermal lens system. It was 80 bucks when I bought it... probably only costs 60 or 70 now. With a thermal lens, I've never had fogging problems from breathing (paint is going to goo up any lens though). I'd highly recommend this goggle system... beats the rental types hands down. But I've never tried any other higher-end goggles, so I don't have much reference besides saying that cheap goggles are cheap and have lousy fields of view.
I think the most important thing you can do is to go to a paintball store. Hold the guns, get a feel for them, fire some CO2 through them to get a feel for how they cycle. Try on goggle systems, see which ones seem to give the best field of view and stay on your head well. Ask every question you can think of. Ask about discounts for package deals, and discounted field memberships if you intend to play a lot (in high school, I was out there playing every weekend - a lifetime field membership payed for itself ten times over). The advice and tech support you get at a paintball store justifies the price difference between a traditional storefront and the bargain online stores.
Any questions, just ask. I've been there, and I remember it well.
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I have been playing for 12 years and finally settled on a Cocker w/ AA air systems.
To answer your question in short is, how much do you want to spend and how much will you be playing?
If you are a novice looking to start cheap but good try the Spyder series. Look at the E-99, its under US$160. Parts are cheap and upgrades are easy. Its almost a fact that everyone has a Spyder in the trunk as a backup. (i do) Remember, your only buying the gun, not the toys that go with it! Budget about US$100 for all the stuff like hopper, tubes, tools, and of course a good pair of goggles.
I disagree with Tarmac as to where to go and try stuff. A store wants to sell you stuff and make a profit. Players want you to play. Go to one of the larger fields, look for a group of players that have diffrent guns and ask them about thier guns. Do not be put off by the cost of the finished guns, most guns will end up about US$500 and up.
(But you can't beat a 'cocker!)
On the subject of goggles, you need to try them on before you buy them. As Tarmac mentioned really look at them, be very comfortable with your goggles. "shoulder" some of the guns (with the hoppers on) and see how they fit. Most of them fit most faces, however as these are THE most important part of paintballing you must feel comfortable with them.
In looking at your profile I see your in High School. This may present a problem in price. I cannot help you with a job, but I do have one suggestion. After you get to playing a bit ask of you can ref at the field. Refs usually get free play and reduced price on paint. Refs also see a lot of play and learn from other players. My play went up dramaticly when I started reffing.
May I direct you to my teams site....
http://www.teamlockdown.com
There you will find a forum system like here, but its full of paintballers.
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does climate play a part in equipment choices?
I.E. severly dry, severely moist, cold, hot. etc etc..?
other than the obvious needs of warm clothing in cold, etc.
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If you play in a cold climate you need to keep the CO2 temperature from falling too much to keep the pressure up. I guess there are many solutions nowadays to do this, but back in the days when I played, in the winter we used thermal covers similar to those you use with a coffee jug on the containers. Some used hot plastic water bottles during breaks.
Also, I got myself a camo-headpiece that includes ear covers with small holes so you can hear well with it and its comfortable light plastic.
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Climate does play a big role if you are useing CO2, but if your useing high pressure air (aka HPA) it dosent make much of a diffrence. I play in California and have no problem with weather so I cannot give any tips on playing in real cold weather.
I have the chart on CO2/Temp/Pressures is anyone is interested!
Cold or wet weather does change the size, shape and texture of the ball. This leads to all kinds of problems, more that could be discussed here. There are many full articles on this subjest in paintball magazines. I keep mine in a Coleman cooler for temp control.
If you wish, drop me a e-mail and I would be happy to send you info.
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well, Im homeschooled, on the 1st and 3rd week of every month on saturdays I go to seacadets...
No pay, and will be No Money after the convention...
I may want to ref, to get a feel for it, and to learn, and get discounts and junk..
But my dad said if I start excersising in a sport, WHAT THE HELL PAINTBALL IS ONE!... I would get more Comp time..but then of course, I won't be using the comp time, but I don't give a crap..
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Fridaddy has some good advice about going to a field... I already had my first gun when I did that, but in hindsight, it was instrumental in my choice to get my 2nd gun. Other players are a big deal. But I'd still say go with a store (hopefully one that also owns a field) so that you can take advantage of their advice and experience, as well as their tech support. They'll often be able to give advice as to how to fix a gun yourself, instead of bringing it in and finding out it's a simple repair you could have done. They give you advice so that you never make those noob mistakes (such as putting your bolt in upside-down).
As for cold weather, CO2 is affected greatly. I would get a neoprene cover for your tank... it doesn't do all that much for keeping the tank warm (nothing short of a heater will keep the tank warm once you start firing), but it does help keep that cold-ass tank from freezing your shoulder/arm. Re-chrono (check muzzle velocity) often. If you can afford it, an expansion chamber or regulator is also good. These help to keep liquid out of the gun (liquid CO2 is what's stored in your tank, and it converts to gas more slowly in cold weather). Keep the gun level or pointed upward to prevent liquid from flowing through the tank into the gun (you can flood an expansion chamber by aiming down and firing in cold weather).
In the cold, keep your paint in a cooler in your car, and only take what you need onto the field. You shouldn't need 600 rounds for your average 15-20 minute rec game. I'd usually do fine with just a 200 round full hopper... maybe a 100 round tube so I'd have some extra if I ran my hopper dry.
And the tippman vs spyder debate will go on eternally... but I'll still side with tippman;) . Especially in cold weather, I think Tippmans handle liquid CO2 better than spyders. I've shot and surrendered many a spyder owner who was futzing with his gun behind a bunker, especially in cold weather.
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Autococker if you can afford it, bout 450 - 550. Tipman is a solid PB gun maker, much cheaper at around 150 -250. A little bit less range and accuracy and air usage. Just close in a bit then ;) Excellant thread I might add.
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Well, Im in FL and knowing how this winter went, Im gonna have to know about that cold weather stuff !! L.O.L
Well, Im bogled by the money that can go into this, for me, it would be like giving up my homeschooling to play paint ball, homeschooling obviously more expensive in the long run.
Soooo, I guess E-bay wouldn't exactly the route to go seeing how I won't get a feel for the gun b4 I buy it, but I guess refing a field would be fun, and maybe joining a team down here if FL.
I love strategy and want to be involved in a little war, so paintball seems to be the route.
Im hoping Ill run into someone thats down here in FL, that does paintball and is in a team....
But so far no luck.
And thankyou for saying this is an interesting thread, probably the most ive typed aboutone subject...
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I'd give this (http://www.warpig.com) a try. I sold my first marker (Tippmann 68 carbine...super-reliable marker) on there along with some CO2 tanks at what i felt was a reasonable price for me and a great price for the buyer. took the money and bought an '01 autococker (right feed) and a whole bunch of other gidgets, gadgets, and gizmos i bought off of warpig. Ricochet2k hopper for $50 when they first came out (over 100 at the time), freak barrel system, and a whole slew of gear (32 degrees bag/gloves/jersey/goggles, JT spectre goggles, some other misc. piecesparts. $40 for about $100 in gear).
Ive had nothing but good experiences, and am now looking to get into the sport again. (i sold my gear to pay for some flying time) what i had was..
'01 cocker (black)
Ecliipse chrome hinge frame (best buy, though the Worrgames hinge is perfectly adequite)
freak system
shockteck "the bomb" 2/3/4 way (i call it a 4way)
misc. aftermarket pneumatics
68cu in 3000psi fiber hpa tank
shocktech regulator
Ricochet 2k hopper (painted chrome...hehehe)
all in all it was a mean beastie with a black body and chrome gizmogadgets hanging off...looked quite sweet and shiny :)
For your first marker, a .68 carbine by tippmann is the ticket. mine was super low maintence and had a PMI Perfect Ceramic barrell that was 16 inches long...i spoiled myself with the accuracy of that puppy!
Second marker was the Autococker. It was touchy to get it timed right, but there are many websites out there that can help you do it, and im sure you'll run into someone who can do a fine job. with the eclipse frame and some aftermarket valves and springs with the eclipse frame, i had a 2-3mm trigger pull and could fire faster than i could think. Combine it was set up for Low Pressure, i typically had the quietest marker on the field (there were a few angels that could go lower pressure than mine and sounded quieter depending on the barrel they used)
-Former team captain of "Marked Territory"
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Palmer guns.
http://www.palmer-pursuit.com/
I own three.
Quality over quantity.
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Alright, anyone have a website where I can findout why a Paintball gun is called a marker?
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Originally posted by Hawklore
Alright, anyone have a website where I can findout why a Paintball gun is called a marker?
They were originally used for marking livestock. Now, it's just a politically correct way of referring to the things that look like guns and shoot stuff at people using quasi-military tactics but heaven forbid aren't called guns. An attempt to disassociate the sport from the "gun culture" image it has logically gained. Makes the sport more mainstream so that Brass Eagle can sell $50 plastic pieces of crap (that will probably, at some point, be used to vandalize someone's house or car) at traditional sporting goods stores.
Screw them PC dweebs... I call it a paintball gun. Gun for short. Deal with it.
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Oh yeah, and as for a website, I did most of my noob paintball research at warpig.com. That was five or six years ago though... there may be something better out there now.
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Hawklore
Well, I guess Dragon said dont ask on our teams BBS so your not breaking the rules. But I think he wants you to look in other venues.
http://www.teamlockdown.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000060
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I've emailed him with what I thought was the answer he said it wasn't it , and I looked on warpig, couldn't find it.. :( Guess im out of that 5 dolla :( BUT NOT YET!!! :D
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
does climate play a part in equipment choices?
I.E. severly dry, severely moist, cold, hot. etc etc..?
other than the obvious needs of warm clothing in cold, etc.
Wlfgng...I only rent equipment when I play...so I really don't know. But, if you play outdoors on a really cold day you may want to ensure that no exposed skin is showing...not because it is cold, but because the paintballs do not break nearly as easily as they become slightly hardened by the low temperature.
I got hit on my "pinky" finger on one such cold day, playing outdoors...I didn't think an appendage that small could hurt so much (no funny jokes here please:D ). I also got hit right on the top of my head that same day. I immediately put up my hands and got off the field suffering from a big time headache. The ball hadn't broken..and I knew it...I left becuase it really frigging hurt and I needed to go put a hat on to afford "some" protection.
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www.paintballgear.com (http://)
I buy ALL my stuff from these guys. However, there are tons of places to buy paintball equipement.
I personally have a 2000 autococker which I've tricked out and just bought an AKA viking. My viking will be replacing my cocker as I can get upwards of 17 - 20 bps out of it. Once I get good at walking the trigger that is. Right now my loader can only handle 12 -13 bps. It has nearly the accuracy of the cocker, and equal the range.
There have been a lot of posts already. If you are going to get started, this is what I would get.
STOCK autococker: start at $350 or so
Preset 68/4500 PSI steel tank
JT Thermal goggles
12 VOLT revolution loader
Some sort of tube pack (personal perference)
Good pair of baseball cleats
Dye excel Barrel
I ran that setup for the 2000 and 2001 season, started upgrading part for the 2002 season, and have "graduated to an low-pressure electric marker for this season.
Check out EBAY also, there are a TON of markers out there and the autococker is a good one to get off of ebay. If they come to you screwed up, they are usually VERY easy to fix, versus buying an electric marker. I would NOT recommend buy electric off of EBAY.
Have fun, once you get hooked on it, your gonna live and breath paintball. I do :D
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I started w/ a Tippman 68 special .. man loved the noise that gun made when it fired.. and bullet proof mechanics.
I now have a 2000 autococker w/ compressed air and about $800.00 woth of mods on it. Depending on where you play.. get a thermal mask for sure. I live in AZ and non-thermal masks have a real fogging problem. If ya haven't played much... I suggest you rent a field gun the first several times you play jsut to make sure the desire is going to stay with you. If you go with a 'cocker... spend the extra $300- $400 on a good HPA system. Guys that are having problems with their cockers breaking balls are probably using CO2. I have scuba dived, parachuuted, free climbed... done lots of cool things... for some reason, nothing gives me a ruch like a fast hitting 5 man tourney. I am blessed though, I live on the outskirts of the PHX area and have a 6 field paintball facility 10 minutes frrom my house.
Good luck!
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Hurrah for the old 68 special!!! The *klunk-whang!!!* of firing it with a rickety siphon tank makes me nostalgic.
I also liked the KP5, PGP, and other old pumpguns.
On the field in casual play... the Shocker 4X4 non auto is a nifty marker, but it takes some maintennance.
Always wanted to make a ghille suit, grab just a PGP with 4 or 5 shots and make a day of standing up behind the enemy once the line has swept past me... Only seen it done tho.
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Originally posted by corrupto
Always wanted to make a ghille suit, grab just a PGP with 4 or 5 shots and make a day of standing up behind the enemy once the line has swept past me... Only seen it done tho.
AH, there is nothing like getting behind 'em and shooting them in the back. I bunkered one guy from behind last season and gave him the chance to surrender.
He hesitated, and screamed "never!!!!" and capped one off at me
He missed.....
I didn't and I lit him up like a xmas tree at a range of about 6 feet.
He got bunkered the next game by someone else on my team. He surrendered quicker then the French :D :D :D
Cod what a great sport!!!!!! Can hardly wait for the first 45° day
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Coupla quick comments.
First off, what TYPE of game you play should factor into your choice of a gun. The Autocockers that everyone seems to be touting are fine guns for speedball (flat feild with a buncha obstacles set up. What matters most is the volume of paint you can throw. BOOORRRING!) If you prefer to play games where you're crawling through the woods and stuff, you're gonna be better off with a something like a Tippmann. They're far more rugged and reliable. You're not gonna hafta baby it or keep it in perfect tune.
Not really bashing Cockers, but I don't know a single guy with one who doesn't have to dick with it regularly throughout the day. Playing woodland games, there's just no need to cover the field in paint. Unless, I suppose, you suck and have no tactical skill. ;)
Secondly, (despite a claim I've already seen in this thread) NO PAINTBALL GUN CAN THROW PAINT ANY FURTHER THAN ANY OTHER. At the same velocity at least. Simple physics here folks. Most fields are FPS limited to 280 or 300. Gun A tossing out a paintball at 300fps will NOT send it any further than Gun B tossing the same paintball at 300fps. It's simply not possible.
The ONLY way to get more distance is to use a system that imparts a bit of backspin on the ball, thereby generating a bit of lift. The Tippmann Flatline barrel is (AFAIK) still the only system that does this. It DOES work, with some caveats. The main one being that if you hold the gun in any position other than completely level, the ball will curve.
FWIW, I play almost exclusively woodland games. I've got a Timmann .68 Carbine with a J&J ceramic barrel, a Tippmann Model 98 with a Flatline (that hardly EVER gets used) and a J&J ceramic, and a SuperNova with an electronic upgrade that I use when playing indoors or the ocassional speedball game.
I've got a buncha masks, but my favorite is the Brass Eagle Xtreme Vision 280. Looks cool, rounded shape so it's less likely to grab on underbrush and whatnot, good ventilation. I've also got a Scott BadAss that's probably my second favorite. I think the current version is the BadBoy. I've got a coupla others too. I think they're probably both lower-end JT's. Don't even remember cuz they're tossed on the shelf somewhere. :)
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Back in the day when I used to play, I wanted a full auto paintball gun.
This one was the only one I could find.
(http://www.getrealpaintball.com/images/at85_tactical.jpg)
Used to be called the AT85r. It was supposed to be really good for acuracy and full auto fire if you modded it a bit.
Never did buy it, the 500plus price tag and not playing much kinda killed the idea.
Are they any good?
Here is the web site.
http://www.getrealpaintball.com/intro_set.html
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Originally posted by Doberman
Coupla quick comments.
Secondly, (despite a claim I've already seen in this thread) NO PAINTBALL GUN CAN THROW PAINT ANY FURTHER THAN ANY OTHER. At the same velocity at least. Simple physics here folks. Most fields are FPS limited to 280 or 300. Gun A tossing out a paintball at 300fps will NOT send it any further than Gun B tossing the same paintball at 300fps. It's simply not possible.
I've seen this debated on about 5 different boards, and yes it is possible to get more range or less range on different markers. Its called shootdown.
I agree with you, everything being equal, two markers shooting the same fps will IN THEORY shoot the same distance. You also have to take into account closed bolt vs open bolt (however, I'm not totally convinced on that argument tho), Hi pressure internals vs low pressure internals.
Some of the lower end markers (I'm going to use a spyder for this example, cuz one guy on my team shoots one and I have first hand experience with this).
The first 2-3 shot (in rapid fire) will be almost equal in range, after that, my cocker will outdistance his syder easily due to shootdown. His marker/tank cannot supply enough air to allow the marker to constantly shoot 280 fps. IE, his velocity drops during rapid fire resulting in less range.
In my case, the field that I play at is pretty open. Not a lot of brush, trees etc to hide around. The idea is to get as MUCH paint in the air on the break before making it to the bunkers. Range and ROF is very important where I play at. At field where woods are the name of the game, an Illustrator F4 or other single shots are plenty suffiecient.
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Nothin like working your way through the brush, tappin a guy on the shoulder with your gun in his ear. In open play, I'm not satisfied til I've bunkered a player or 5. My record: bunkered 5 at once... to be fair, they were noobs... 2 were girls..man I love how big people's eyes get when they turn and see that 68 caliber barrel an inch frrom their mask. Had a guy at an open game once tell me that I didn't move much and was easy to find.(I had been coasting because I was one of the only customs on the field). Next game I got right on his back... was gonna bunker him ... but took three or four steps back and lit him up.. I'm telling you,, it was very satisfying. Naturally, I didn't have to say a word... gave him a wink and slunk off into the brush
Doberman... from a physics standpoint your comments on range are correct... but forgive me if they are not completely accurate. what I mean is.. I can reach out and touch someone farther w/ my 'cocker than I can with most guns.. a ball that is more stable out of the barrel is going to travel farther than a ball that has had the force of the air/CO2 exerted on it unevenly. Just like firearms w/ gunpowder. A smooth bore round and a rifled round leave the barrel at the same speed...which one is going to travel farther?
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Hey Fridaddy, you're in Bob Long's neck of the woods, Team Ironmen, right?
My team captain, Mike Carrey, from Personal Vendetta who I played NPPL with for 6 years has played for Bob for the last few years since we quit playing.
I recognize your team name, LockDown. Do you guys play on any of the circuits now?
As for the original post, having been sponsored by W'orr Game Prods, I'm somewhat biased, but the A/Cocker makes a decent all round gun, but as previous posters have said, be prepared to dick with it more than the average gun.
If you can afford it, and plan an playing tournament ball, invest in an electronic gun like the Itimidator (what I currently am shooting), or an Angel (was sponsored with Angels once upon a time as well.)
The best advice I read on here: go to some fields and try out some guns and THEN decide what you like. My old shop, MR Paintball/PMI Canada was a 3 man operation, with me being #3, and I've sold tens of thousands of different paint guns, and seen them back for warranty work, and done a majority of that work in my shop (PMI, Tipp, Bud Orr, Airgun, etc etc). If you're looking for a robust mid level semi auto, that will be inexpensive to fix, and only slightly less capable than a gun 2x the cost, grab yourself any of the Tippman semi autos. If you plan on only buying one gun in the next few years, and are considering tournament level of play, for god's sake buy a tournament level gun and be done with it.
As for the poster who said that all guns have the same range due to physics: WRONG!
At the muzzle if you have 5 guns shooting 300 fps exactly, I'll show you 5 guns that have completely different trajectories as well as ranges. My autocockers with a carter stainless barrel = very flat shot, and will fly at least 30 feet farter than my intimidator with a rifled smart parts barrel as an example. The ball will retain energy once leaving the barrel DIFFERENTLY depending on a great number of factors, but most importantly the brand of paint, it's size (.689 to .692 typically when measured with a micrometer), the barrel surface and rifling, and how it interacts with each individual make of paint, and the air pressure of the valve and how IT reacts to the impact the blast of air will make on the ball in the breach.
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Gman... thanks for posting about gun range... I was worried that I was the only one that was aware of the varying factors.
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A friend of mine owns http://www.paintball.com. Go to his site and tell him that Wilson sent you.
:)
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I wanna realy do the brush ones, sneaking around, not speedball, cause I can scare the crap outa ppl if there not as aware of the area as I am, being the house at night right around the corner, and bro walks right by me, opposite way, and I say boo! and he jumps and screams..
Yeah, tippman might be the ones for me..
Anyone here in the NE FL Area?
And wow look what this thread has turned into :D
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Originally posted by Gman
Hey Fridaddy, you're in Bob Long's neck of the woods, Team Ironmen, right?
My team captain, Mike Carrey, from Personal Vendetta who I played NPPL with for 6 years has played for Bob for the last few years since we quit playing.
I recognize your team name, LockDown. Do you guys play on any of the circuits now?
Yep, Bobs store is 5 miles down Hwy 4. Bob did not start the Ironmen as many people think. They were iron workers for the Richmond (Shell I seem to rememmber) refinery and thats where the name started. I have a pic of the orignal 7 members including The General, Black Death and Bugeler!
Bob is now coaching/playing the Oakland team for the X-Games Pro Paintball.
The only circuit we play on right now is the California Police and Fire circuit. We are getting many more as we call them, "jersey players" we are looking at tourenys. I think the main problem most teams face is trying to do to much too fast. We are taking the slow and steady route We have been around three and half years.
There is a LockDown on the east coast. They take the name from a sharks bite...whatever. Ours comes from working in a maximum security correctionl facility. We seem to yell LOCKDOWN a lot. Usually its more like LOCK THE F#@K DOWN! but you get the idea.
See ya in the middle!
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Originally posted by Gman
As for the poster who said that all guns have the same range due to physics: WRONG!
At the muzzle if you have 5 guns shooting 300 fps exactly, I'll show you 5 guns that have completely different trajectories as well as ranges. My autocockers with a carter stainless barrel = very flat shot, and will fly at least 30 feet farter than my intimidator with a rifled smart parts barrel as an example. The ball will retain energy once leaving the barrel DIFFERENTLY depending on a great number of factors, but most importantly the brand of paint, it's size (.689 to .692 typically when measured with a micrometer), the barrel surface and rifling, and how it interacts with each individual make of paint, and the air pressure of the valve and how IT reacts to the impact the blast of air will make on the ball in the breach.
I'll hafta call roadkill on this. On a coupla points at least. First off unless there's been some stuff done very lately, there's never been a single emperical test which shows that rifeling has ANY impact upon a paintball's flight at all. In fact, there WERE tests which show that rifeling seems to impart NO noticible spin whatsoever. Along those lines (and in response to Steve's comment) it wasn't so much the rifeling of the barrel that made the difference in real firearms as it was the shape of the bullet used in a rifled bore.
Trajectory? Unless you point the gun at a higher angle, all guns will shoot at the same trajectory. As soon as they leave the barrel, no matter what barrel, there are only two forces working on the paintball: momentum and gravity. At 300fps out of the barrel the momentum is the same for every one. And unless some magic guns can conjure up a localized low gravity field, gravity works the same on every paintball also.
Fancy grooves, ports, coatings and hype can't overcome the laws of physics, no matter how much paintballers who've spent alot of jack on their gear would like them to.
Two paintballs of equal size that are matched to their barrels will both travel the same distance at the same trajectory, no matter what gun or barrel they came from.
My $150 Tippmann .68 Carbine / J&J Ceramic combo with meticulously matched paint has exactly the same range/trajectory as does my $600+ SuperNova. Both have exactly the same range/trajectory as my buddies heavily tuned 'Cocker. And our other friends Automag and his Angel. (Well, within about a foot or two at least, as the ones that use a paintball at the small end of the diameter have just the tiniest bit less air resistance.)
Modas, shootdown is a different variable. A gun doesn't HAVE to shootdown. If it does that's a tuning problem that can be overcome (usually.)
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Doberman... I'm sorry bro.. take those rental tippmans at the local field to 300, then my 'cocker to the same FPS.. not only will my balls have a longer reach.. they will break on most targets while the tippman balls are rolling in . sorry buddy... you can argue all you want... but it's what happens.
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Hah, you and I are probably the few who remember. I played back in the Navarone days myself, pre- the Socal/Nocal Ironmen split, pre Dave Younblood from JT/Dye.
I'm going to come down one of these days and plays some ball with Bobby and the boys, I'll maybe give ya'll a shout.
Take care.
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On the debate about the Autococker vs the "other lesser priced" CO2 guns, it is true the in stock form the cocker does shoot more accurate than others. The AutoMag shoots better than the cocker stock but it doesnt use CO2, uses O2 or nitrogen. People who use semi auto paintguns shoot bursts of rounds rather than one shot or two rapidly. The cocker is more efficent in gas usage because of its internal design is more pneumatic in nature. The other guns like the tipman and spider/clones are not like that. Fire the cocker and hold the trigger back, the bolt stays back rather than return to the breach. Tipmans and spiders return. Cocker is more accurate in rapid fire overall with better sustained range than the others. Right now I have a Spider clone as I had to get rid of my Autococker. I've played with Tipmans also, good guns and can easily be upgraded with better barrel etc... Still cocker shoots a bit better.