Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: udet on February 27, 2003, 12:25:29 PM
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Since I don't have a throttle, I usually cut the engine off. Of course, if I undershoot and turn the engine back on for a burst of power, the combination of low speed and torque sometimes rolls the plane and sends me to the ground, usually really fast and in a very inverted attitude. But, it does make landings very interesting and simulates the anxiety of landing a real aircraft :)
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Landing?
Don't know, never survived a sortie.
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I don't so much land as barely survive a meagerly controlled crash.
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LANDIN!?
Landing ya say?
Wazdat?
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Belly landed for 3 months before i knew that i was suppostu be under 200 MPH for the gear to work..
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I chop throttle and do a side slip on approach to bleed E, then pull the nose up to the point of stall, and keep an eye on my ROC(or in this case ROD) meter, and apply throttle to keep it the nose up while keeping the ROD down.
And I still wind up bouncing down the runway half the time lol.
-Sik
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On those rare occasions I've survived all the way back to home base I'm usually balls-to-th-wall. So, what I generally do is buzz the fld at about 375-400 mph, cut engine at the end of the runway, while simultaneously haulin back on the stick. Somewhere near the top my speed has dropped to under, or near, 200 mph. That's when I dump gear and flaps. Soon I'm pointing at the ground, inverted, so I roll upright, and hope I don't pancake into the tarmack as I flare at the last instant. I've gotten pretty good at this.
There've been a few times though when I've come in shot up, smokin, or even on fire, no gas, no oil, no ammo, parts of wings and tail missing. Those times I'm very content to belly-in on the grass anywhere near a friendly base.
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What's this landing I keep hearing about? :confused:
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get about 5 feet off the ground with full flaps ang gear then pull hard up...quickly going back horizontal i fall...break the gear but if i do it right it still works
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When we were first told we'd get carriers to use I started practicing carrier landings at airfields, it kinda stuck.
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ohh I forgot to mention the steep turns I make on final in order to bleed off airspeed-I think they work better than side-slipping.
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Overhead pattern at 800', 300 mph. Chop throttle to idle at the break. 1 notch of flaps on the downwind. Lower gear at 175. 1 more notch of flaps. 180° turn to final once parallel to the threshold. Full flaps once on centerline and glide to a full stall (soft) landing. Easy! =)
MiG
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How can people play without a throttle ??????
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All,
I saw a show on Discovery Wings, an old fighter pilot was talking about just this.
He said each pilot needed to land in under a minute. This way if they had 50 planes out they could have all planes down in 50 mins or less. He said the fastest way to land was...
Full speed flyby past the tower, when he reached the opposite end of the runway he would throttle back to idle and pull a wingover; put the plane in a steep climb, when the airspeed was low enough he would dump his gear and flaps and kick the rudder, drop the nose pull back for the runway.
After seeing this I had to try it. What a rush when done well. Once I successfully execute the wingover, I should be descending towards a spot on the end of the runway at or below 200 knots. I like to keep about 150 knots as I cross the end of the runway, when I am just about to crash into the runway point I am descending to I bring the nose up bleed off about 50 knots to 100 knots, when I start to hear the stall horn, if I am too high I drop the nose slightly add a little power and control the decent in ground effect until I am about 10 feet off the ground and slow under 100 knots. Then I bury the stick back in my chest and hold it there executing a perfect 3-point landing, if I’m down and on the tail I get on brakes.
This last part, The "Flare", is the only way I can land a Corsair with out doing a wing over due to the Gyroscopic Precession. Stall it right over the runway and stick a perfect three pointer and get the tail on the ground. If you are too high when you try to stick the 3 pointer you will bounce like a rubber ball so be prepared to mush it in.
I have passed guys on short final as I start my high-speed pass down the runway and have been on the ground and stopped just as they touch down. It reduces your vulnerability and amount of time being low and slow.
Good Luck!!! Great Flying!!!
Mars
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Usually nose down at about 500mph. Gear optional.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Usually nose down at about 500mph. Gear optional.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I sometimes trail smoke or missing essential parts. But just sometimes :cool:
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"How can people play without a throttle ??????"
I don't use a throttle, special rudder control, OR view hat :)
J_A_B
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Most of the time I land as a smoking crater and a kill mark on somones airplane.
My best method is to fly above the runway at about 500 ft and 200 mph or less. Then hit enter about 4 or 5 times. Then hit "o" to open the chute. While I drift leasurely to the ground I enjoy the views of the airfield. If need be walk to the runway and hit the tower key.
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Originally posted by WldThing
Belly landed for 3 months before i knew that i was suppostu be under 200 MPH for the gear to work..
:D :D :D LOL to damn funny!!!!
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In a Jug I usually try to come in about 1500 feet above the alt of the runway, full throttle til I'm about a mile off the field, then chop throttle and let her glide in. It's kinda fun to see if you can land without touching the throttle again. If I'm really really really LOW on fuel, I'll come in hot, maybe 50 feet above the runway and sideslip at the last moment to scrub speed and drop gear.
F6F, P-38, and Ponies, I like to do the Maverick flyby, full bore on the deck, zoom up at zero throttle, pop flaps and gear at the top, then I see if I can land without touching the throttle again.
190/109.......I emulate DMF's style........nosedown, 500mph, lotsa parts missing! I rarely land a 109 or 190 sortie........lol!
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Leviathn has no style.
Me, on the other hand, I'll usually do a tail slide into the ground or if I'm feeling particularly stylish I'll float it down like a harrier.
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I too didn't know that gear wouldn't lower over 200 knots, but it only took a few landings and a question to my squaddie before I figured it out.
I fly the Yak a lot and it can be really squirrely to land because it's a light plane. If I come in too hot, I'll bleed E by yawing back and forth. The C-47 seems to be the easiest to land.
I'm going to have to try those full bore climb landings. They sound like fun.
:cool:
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Now try mine :)
Full power, preferably a creaking, groaning airframe right down the centerline of the strip, go into a slooooow roll, try to make it one long roll from end to end of the runway and keep it under 100 feet. That my friends, is a victory roll, and I wish I saw more of them. I then usually go into a rolling circle to bleed airspeed and line up for the landing, full flaps, gear down, ride the stall horn using throttle to control altitude, try to get a smooth but firm, full stall landing, right to to the re-arm pad if I care to.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
and keep an eye on my ROC(or in this case ROD) meter, and apply throttle to keep it the nose up while keeping the ROD down.
VSI = Verticle Speed Indicator
ROC/ROD hehehe ;)
Terror
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F4U-1 gear will lower at 300 mph. So will one notch of flaps. Lower hook if it's a carrier arrest. Throttle to idle. Sideslip if neccesary but don't get carried away. Keep applying flaps until 3/4 or full. Apply throttle if dropping too much. Airspeed usually just above stall speed at end of runway or carrier. Flare to land.
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Originally posted by Terror
VSI = Verticle Speed Indicator
ROC/ROD hehehe ;)
Terror
Why are you looking at instruments when you're landing? :eek: the ONLY thing you should glance at is your airspeed indicator to make sure you're approaching at a decent airspeed...as little as 80 in a Kate, and as high as 180 in a 262. I do see some goofy lawndart action happening whenever im at a base, usually rearming and looking around at the odd ballet of feeble attempts of landing. I see bouncing airplanes, gearups with perfectly healthy airplanes, approaches flown into the ground with no flare, and approaches that are pushing Vne. And it really makes me concerned that these same folks are out there driving on the very same roads as I...scary. simply terrifying.
Airplanes easy to land...C-47 is one of them i heard it mentioned. If you get the chance to...an ME-262 is a popsiclecat to land...fly a 7 mile final if you're well withing your territory, flaps come in at 400mph and gear down <200. Approach at 180 and bleed off speed. Over the numbers at 150...and it will just settle onto the runway like its got tired feet. If you've ever seen a Citation land, its quite the same feeling. very docile on approach, and a beauty to land.
Hows this for a landing???
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I find it easier to land on my side when a wing is missing.
Otherwise it tends to tumble.
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fast landing, well come in fast, rudder full right, while ailerons turning left, bit like a power slide on a skate board, get speed slow enough to dploy flaps, then lower landing gear, touch down, then at 150 mph gear up again so as to slide to halt on belly super quick time, then .ef :)
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oh BTW landing like last post will break your plane :D
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I usualy try to land on my feet just to be cocky, but sometimes my approach is too fast and I have to do a roll. This sometimes causes me to tangle in chute cords terribly.:D
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Mines like greased butter :D
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Crossed rudder & ailerons, nose up till the flaps drop., if still hot through in a couple of barrel rolls with lots of elev action.
Flare just before runway, let it float till wheels drop.
Or if I have time come in slow, try to touch wheels right on threshold hanging on prop at 90 mph. Stall horn buzzing, adrenaline pumping, overcontrolling thrill of the day.
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S!
Always a shallow approach with a 3-point landing.
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It's such a rare occasion, I forget? ;)
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Gotta go with MiG on this one.
We come in at military power 500-1000 feet over the runway. At midpoint, lead element chops throttle and pulls left to blackout with a bit of climb, dumping gear and flaps as they pass through those regimes. Reverse to downwind. When the field is 135 degrees off the left, turn base to final, using throttle to control rate of descent. Flare and touch down just after the threshhold.
Successive elements count off five seconds and follow.
Yeah, it doesn't happen often, but when it does, you come off looking like rockstars.
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One thing at a time, I'm still trying to figure out how to take off.
ack-ack
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I put my knees together and get them slightly bent. after hitting the ground I make a roll to the side and immediately start pulling the bottom strings toward me, in order to make the canopy fold.
once the chute is neatly packed, I walk back to the squadron.
Bozon
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I use some times HOTAB for the landing.
Auto Angle trim on and activate Hand On the Throttle And Beer.
(http://www.deltahawks.org/PR/pics/hotab.jpg)
BTW Its NOT me!
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He said each pilot needed to land in under a minute. This way if they had 50 planes out they could have all planes down in 50 mins or less. He said the fastest way to land was...
Its called a pitch up for landing. There are a few reasons that the military does them, especially in the navy. #1 it gives an exact spacing between planes, #2 it allows the cable guys to identify the plane and set the cable to the correct tension. #3 it allows the flight boss to give each plane a lookover to make sure everything is A-OK. In AH I used this approach cause it gets you down and stopped faster than any other LANDING. You come in at top speed and do a 180* maximum performance turn, throw the gear and flaps down and land. If you wanted to do a straight in you would have to pull the power off 3-4 miles out to allow the plane to slow down. This comes in really handy if you are being chased or if your oil/fuel/coolant are low.
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I dive from half a sector away, then turn real hard to loose speed, select a runway, turn hard 2-3 times , drop gear and flaps, land hard and pull on the stick releasing flaps too skid to a halt.
Sometimes it works.
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Hot and dirty, everytime. Barrel over the field at 400 mph, diagonal to the runway, cut throttle and go full rudder deflection and go into a hugely tight turn. If I decide I'm too fast, I'll continue the turn until I've done a full 360. Drop flaps and gear when I can, point it at the runway, flare and drop it on the tarmac in a bone rattling touchdown.
Other times I get shot down or take my wing off on some stupidly rigid refueling shack.
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AUTOLAND
1. Ensure some kind of Red coloured icon is visible in the rear view
2. Push "X" on the keyboard to select Autoland
2. Wait for the required time until the aircraft has configured itself for landing - this can be determined by one or more abrupt noises.
3. The aircraft will start its approach to the landing with a nose down pitch (Throttling back is often accompanied by large flames down the side of the canopy - do not be alarmed this is normal)
4. Any tendency for the nose to pitch back up should be resisted by pushing the stick forward.
5. Approach to autoland may show the landing point to be spinning rapidly - this is a software error.
6. The aircraft will continue to adjust it's configuration during approach - noises heard are normal.
7. Landing will be swift and you will be rapidly back in the tower to begin another mission.
Sparks
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I've started trying a new technique.
I come in low and fast - low to try and blend with the scenery but fast enough to pull up into evasives if I have to. When the airfield is in sight I kick rudder to bleed off the speed, drop flaps and pull nose up a bit, drop some more flaps, then gear. Assuming I haven't run out of gas I can correct with power if I undershoot. Otherwise, if deadstick, I drop 3 tires short of the runway and coast it in on fumes. If I overshoot the arming pad and don't have gas to go taxi back to it, I'll land the kills.
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Landing?
Let's see...been driving the Ar234 lately...so check and see if anything has followed me 50 miles for a perk kill. Nope, seems clear. Chop throttle. Wait wait wait. Spiraling, decending turns to bleed speed and energy....finally get lined up on runway. Check for cons...slow to 200. Gear down. One notch flaps. Check for cons. Main gear touch down at 180, hammer the brakes. Wait wait wait wait wait wait... :) Stop, exit.
Tho I confess, its a bit more exciting when you are low and slow and a Dora suddenly makes an appearance from 10k... Aiieeeee
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I've probably landed more times than any player in the game...
Not due to my overwhelming ability to rtb and land kills however.
I usually log three or four landings each time I rtb because I'm bouncing so bad my fillings come out. Hell, my pilot probably looks like he's doing the wave at a football game in the cockpit.
Amazingly enough, I somehow survive these violent encounters with the runway and manage to keep my plane together. Rather than admit I can't land smoothly, I just tell everyone it's my "style"... hehehe
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3 point or more often "patatoïd" ;)
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I noticed that in Ah ,when u use the brakes, planes don't nose over like in Warbirds.
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Originally posted by Sparks
AUTOLAND
ROFL
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Landing technique, Me262:
1. Fly long sortie; scare some La7's by pointing nose at them .
2. Return to friendly territory; ignore red dot at edge of sector.
3. Make approach to friendly base - drop flaps, slow down, drop gear; ignore (now closer) red dot in friendly sector.
4. Wave off
5. Notice red dot is now very close; relocate to next friendly base (behind enemy lines)
6. Make approach to friendly base - drop flaps, slow down, drop gear; ignore red dot in friendly sector.
7. Wave off
8. Realise fuel state is critical; go around
9. Notice red dot is now very close
10. Make approach to friendly base - drop flaps, slow down, drop gear;
11. Wave off
12. HO enemy P47
13. Lose at this
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Originally posted by slimm50
On those rare occasions I've survived all the way back to home base I'm usually balls-to-th-wall. So, what I generally do is buzz the fld at about 375-400 mph, cut engine at the end of the runway, while simultaneously haulin back on the stick. Somewhere near the top my speed has dropped to under, or near, 200 mph. That's when I dump gear and flaps. Soon I'm pointing at the ground, inverted, so I roll upright, and hope I don't pancake into the tarmack as I flare at the last instant. I've gotten pretty good at this.
Thats what that lady russian IL2 pilot did... I keep forgetting her name and I know someone is gonna post it under here :D
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Originally posted by Sparks
AUTOLAND
1. Ensure some kind of Red coloured icon is visible in the rear view
2. Push "X" on the keyboard to select Autoland
2. Wait for the required time until the aircraft has configured itself for landing - this can be determined by one or more abrupt noises.
3. The aircraft will start its approach to the landing with a nose down pitch (Throttling back is often accompanied by large flames down the side of the canopy - do not be alarmed this is normal)
4. Any tendency for the nose to pitch back up should be resisted by pushing the stick forward.
5. Approach to autoland may show the landing point to be spinning rapidly - this is a software error.
6. The aircraft will continue to adjust it's configuration during approach - noises heard are normal.
7. Landing will be swift and you will be rapidly back in the tower to begin another mission.
Sparks
ROFL
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Landing easy, I just reduce power on the downwind and trickle it off lowering flap and gear, turning final I add a little power to help controllability. Over the runway I reduce power again and look towards the end of the runway. As I see the ground rush up in my peripheral vision. I begin the flare only to overdo it bang into the ground bounce 30 feet in the air, try to catch it over compensate bounce again this time to the right of the runway. So I hit full power, go around and head to another airfield where no one knows me.
OH wait, you mean landing in the game, not real life???????!!!! Ignore the above. I'm just joking :o :o :o
I run in and break. This technique was developed for the simple reason that it reduced the time you were exposed to attack while low and slow. Which on AH is a big factor. Plus of course it has a big show off element if you add a victory roll or two. But then I overdo on the flare bounce badly fly off the side of runway clip the tower and blow up. Oh well!
Some people have very scary landing techniques like the zero I met head on last night while I was taking off. It was the only time I actually got a genuine fright on AH.
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Usually nose down at about 500mph. Gear optional.
I'm no expert, so I may be wrong about this, but it sounds to me as if your approach angle is too steep. I was using an approach angle of between 89 and 90 degrees and had this same problem. I've been gradually reducing it tour by tour to find the correct one. This tour I plan on approaching at an angle of 72-73 degrees and seeing how that works. Despite my past failures I'm feeling optomistic. I'll update you at the end of the tour.
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Originally posted by mars01
All,
I saw a show on Discovery Wings, an old fighter pilot was talking about just this.
He said each pilot needed to land in under a minute. This way if they had 50 planes out they could have all planes down in 50 mins or less. He said the fastest way to land was...
Full speed flyby past the tower, when he reached the opposite end of the runway he would throttle back to idle and pull a wingover; put the plane in a steep climb, when the airspeed was low enough he would dump his gear and flaps and kick the rudder, drop the nose pull back for the runway.
This is the way to do it in my opinion. A Friend of my Dad's (a guy who helped 'teach him to really fly - after he got his pilot's license') told me to land this way long ago when I first started playing WB. The guy flew in WW2 and Korea...go figure. :)
Mike/wulfie
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here's my usual, though not prefered style of landing :D
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Is USGolfer now gonna give lessons on how to land? Cmon man, let the peeps have fun. If they can't land, don't come on here and bash them because you happen to have 50 hours in 172.
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I prefer to come in low and fast with WEP on and if there are players on the runway I can give a haircut to, I will buzz the entire length of runway. Otherwise, if there is no one around to buzz, I'll chop throttle and make a left turn break right about the halfway point down the runway and start turning 180 degrees in a near blackout. Usually by the time I'm nose level again heading downwind, I can start dropping flaps. Typically by the time I'm heading on final, my speed is low enough where I have gear and full flaps down and I'm getting my plane to fly such that all I do is adjust throttle to affect my descent rate. Right before my wheels touch the runway I pull up my flaps to make sure I stick to the runway. In a Corsair, I'll also turn off the engine to get rid of any torque.
For the longest time I didn't have a throttle but had 100% and idle throttle mapped to my joystick and would come in alternating between the two to make a steady speed. RRRRRRRR flflflflflfl RRRRRRRRRRR flflflfl RRRRRRRRR flflflfl.
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My usual landing style is: (remember landing in this game is optional and because it is optional I seem to prefer getting shot down instead, must be an unconscience choice, cuz I don't remember deciding on that)
I start to point the nose at the runway at least 3 to 5 miles out, lining it up with the zoom view and setting shift -x to come in on a steady descent. I continually check 6 and dar map to see if anyone sneaking up on me, this tends to become a paranoid schizophrenic behavior the closer I get to the runway, the map flashing up, then down, my views spinning around like my neck is on ball bearings, Map up-Down,spin the views, zoom to look at runway approach,map up, down, spin views, zoom view---crap too fast, chop throttle, map up, down, spin views, zoom -stall horn, up the throttle, map up, down, spin the views, zoom view, hanger fills the screen, crap Im close, chop throttle, map up,down, chop throttle, notice no visible increase in speed, map up, down, look for fuel gauge, now where the heck is it, page down -oh there it is on E, ok, glider time, still on line, come in for nice gentle approach, 1 notch flaps, nice smooth landing, short of runway, roll slowly to runway, stop about 2 feet short
--you have ditched........
My normal landing style :)
NwBie
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Depends on what part of the aircraft. Typically control surfaces flutter gently. The larger pieces tend not to flutter as much, and the engine just thuds into the ground.
As for me, foot, ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, then I roll, release the parachute, and activate my emergency radio for SAR.
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now that I have a twisty (thanx a lot :)), I discovered the power of the sideslip in bleeding off airspeed, so my landings don't look like carrier approaches anymore.
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My landing style:
(1)Fly to friendly airfield
(2)At 10,000 feet I enter my aircraft into a spin in order to lose altitude quickly without overstressing airframe.
(3)At 3000 feet I pop flaps and gear
(4)2000ft Opposite rudder and stick forward
(5)1500ft Engine at full throttle, still trying to recover
(6) 1000ft full forward trim, still trying to recover
(7)500ft gear and flaps retracted, still trying to recover
(8)100ft enter enter enter
(9) Another sucessful landing
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I learned this while reading "Stick & Rudder", and practiced it in real life with my Culver Cadet. It also works quite well in AH, especially if you think you've screwed up a dead-stick approach. It's especially useful for planes with no flaps, and for short field landings.
Here's how it works. After turning final and you're lined up with the runway, and when you're in a position close to the runway threshhold but above a normal glideslope (where most pilots would go around, thinking they were too high to land), you pull the stick back until you reach mimimum controllable airspeed, and hold it there with pitch control. If you're comfortable with your plane you can keep it right on the verge of a stall. Be careful here, you don't want to stall/spin at low altitude. If you think you're going to stall, push forward slightly--just enough to avoid the stall. You will begin to descend like a rock, yet retain complete control of the aircraft. Watch your altitude. You will be in a nose-high attitude so refer to your compass and peripheral vision to maintain runway heading, and your peripheral vision and altimeter to decide when to break out of the maneuver in order to touch down gently. To land, push forward enough to gain a little airspeed to facilitate control authority just before touchdown, to get sight of and check/adjust alignment with the runway, and to (most important) reduce the high rate of descent. Yea, it's weird, you're going to push FORWARD to get your rate of descent under control. If necessary, add a touch of throttle to quickly get your airspeed up to the normal landing speed. It's usually only a matter of a few seconds between when you start the recovery and touch down on the runway.
Okay, there's not a lot of room for error with this type of landing. It requires some confidence in your plane and your own ability. For most, it probably makes more sense to just use a slide slip. But, this landing is worth experimenting with if you want to try something new, and improve your low-speed and/or short field piloting skills. Once you get it down, try it while also holding a side-skip, for a nearly vertical angle of descent (much like a helicopter or elevator!).
AlgyFT
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humm risky territory here...I can see how this might work but indeed there is no room for error. And in AH, that little burst of power might roll you over :)
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Landing?
Any I can walk away from...
Thorns
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I say Biggles that's seems a rather hairy procedure old boy! I would be a rum do, if some fellow was find himself in a rather high rate of descent close to the ground.
Rather you than me old chap. Talking to the boffins they seem to think one could rather easily find ones self at what they call the wrong end of the drag curve. No bally idea what that means but they assure me it could end with you going for a Burton after a rather nasty prang. Dashed bad luck that would be. I daresay I won't be trying in my Sopwith Camel anytime soon. Toodle pip!
I did try the method mentioned by marso1 but it resulted in a rather interesting un recoverable flat spin. Jolly bad luck that. These days I rather prefer a low inverted pass so I can keep the runway in sight, then gear up, (it's on top you see old chap). A quick roll upright and tally ho another successful jolly flip having bagged a couple more of the bally Boche.
Back in time for tea and medals, jolly good show, what?
Algy
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real fun is when ya blackout on apprach due to pilot wound,, have plane lined up in advance of balck out , chop throttle to coordinate with time to run way lower gear hit x , then when ya wake back up your down and safe:)
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Hey CPXXX,
Yeah if you balk the Wing Over you can land yourself in an upside down flat spin and you are history. Kick the rudder over when your airspeed is say 250 or 200, then you should have enough energy to get you around.
Wow Biggles, putting the plane into MCA to loose alt, that reminds me of a saying - There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots. lolh.
Good luck!!!
Mars01 - MAW Blacksheep
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Back in time for tea and medals, jolly good show, what?
Strewth! It's Lord Bertrand Lissie! Great to see you here, Bertie! Top hole, eh what!
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Originally posted by udet
I noticed that in Ah ,when u use the brakes, planes don't nose over like in Warbirds.
Udet, when I fly the pony I notice it will nose over if brakes are applied too soon. I generally have to tap 'em, and watch out for violent right-turns right before it stops. Same for Spitty. Must be th long nose with all that weight out front.
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Come in hot and low perpendicular to the runway... over the top, cut the thottle and hard break into the downwind leg... after passing the end pull up and do a wingover back towards the runway... I'm slamming the flaps down as fast as I can... adding a notch whenever possible as my speed bleeds... at 150 or so, the gear is out... nose is pointed short of the runway and I flare at the bottom and maybe even add some throttle if I bled too much on the wing over.
The rudder bleeds E like mad... it's far more efficient to cross-control the rudder and the aileron for braking than it is to do hard turns.
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Ah Bigglesworth old chum you saw through my rather obvious attempt to fool you by pretending to be Algy. But my dear fellow I note your use of the word 'Strewth'. Good lord!¬ have you taken to consorting with those frightful Australians. Old chap, you would put up a ghastly black, were you to use that term here in Epsom. But it could be worse at least they're not American!
Bertie