Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs2 on February 28, 2003, 08:25:12 AM
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"An alternate idea to my p.s. above - allow players to spend perk points to get fuel, ammunition, etc. above what the current base has available - in effect you are turning your Yak-9U into a '15 perk fighter' because you are rolling with 100% fuel at a field that has 25% fuel available. And just like a perk fighter - if you land, you get the perks back maybe?
Mike/wulfie"
I think this is a great idea and a way to use the normally unused perk points. Plus if it thwarts the "missun dudz" and suicide jabo guys then it has got to be good... I would go further and say that when the hangers are down, 15 perks will give you that plane they had hidden in the revetment... something to make building battling as worthless as it should be.
lazs
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I second that. Great idea.
Always found it amusing that an unlimited number of 25% fueled B-17's could up, but not one 50% fueled 109.
ed: would this apply to goons too? would kind of counter-pork the whole barracks porking strategy to prevent captures, but would give us something to spend bomber perks on. I'd take up a 20 or 30 perk goon... there's nothing else to spend those perkies on right now. Might encourage people to escort goons a bit more if they knew someone had 30 perks on the line. Maybe you could only do it if the strat grunt training facility was up and running at near 100%, to encourage people to do some strategic bombing to prevent this.
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I have to say "yea" to anything which would make perks usefull.
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I like that idea.
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No way! That's like saying its ok to simulate a black market or something. What, you think there's an active native population loitering around with horsecarts full of petrol and .50 cal still in crates?
If you want a better way to stop the jabo bastages and burn perk points, then perk the P-51D, F4U-1D, F6F, P-38, P-47 (all models), Typhoon, Mosquito, and Me-110. Maybe then we'll start seeing divebombers being used on a wider scale like they were in the real war.
Let the fighters do the fighting and the bombers do the bombing.
If you prevent the jabo runs, you won't have to worry about overcoming porked fuel problems. Therefore, perk the jabo fighters and see how many Stuka, Dauntless, and IL-2 raids you get.
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Originally posted by gofaster
No way! That's like saying its ok to simulate a black market or something. What, you think there's an active native population loitering around with horsecarts full of petrol and .50 cal still in crates?
I think you're missing the point. If an AF has the fuel to launch a B-17 with 25% fuel, it prolly has the fuel to launch a squadron or so of Bf109's. The fuel availability should be in lbs rather than %.
Anyways on the perk thing. If a LW base was low on fuel and could not launch all its planes with 100% fuel, do you think Adolf Galland would still get a full tank? ... I do. He definitively had the perks for it.
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Originally posted by gofaster
No way! That's like saying its ok to simulate a black market or something. What, you think there's an active native population loitering around with horsecarts full of petrol and .50 cal still in crates?
No, it's like giving Richard Bong or Greg Boyington or Erich Hartmann full ammo and fuel loadouts while the rest of the squadron gets a reduced loadout.
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suprise, lazs wants to water down an already weak strategic model. The current system is nothing more than a minor inconvenience at best. And only to the other strat guys. It sure doesnt stop a good furball, which is the ultimate form of gaming right? It can limit vulture time tho, I guess that sucks.
But this whole argument is moot with a Dueling Arena specifically designed for those who would like to play in a strat free environ. But i guess it is more fun to b*!ch on the BB than fly there.
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Originally posted by Virage
The current system is nothing more than a minor inconvenience at best.
When it comes to fuel porked at a field, 25 fuel essentially shuts a field down for an hour or more, and requires only a couple of lightly armed jabos to kill.
The country-wide strategic model is a mess IMO, and serves no purpose but to give buff pilots something cool to blow up.
The 'strat' targets at the fields however are soft, easy to kill, and capable of rendering a field impotent for long stretches of time.
IMO the strat targets need to be more important, and the field 'strat' targets less-so.
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Originally posted by Innominate
When it comes to fuel porked at a field, 25 fuel essentially shuts a field down for an hour or more, and requires only a couple of lightly armed jabos to kill.
The country-wide strategic model is a mess IMO, and serves no purpose but to give buff pilots something cool to blow up.
The 'strat' targets at the fields however are soft, easy to kill, and capable of rendering a field impotent for long stretches of time.
IMO the strat targets need to be more important, and the field 'strat' targets less-so.
Another reason to (a) perk the jabo fighters and (b) introduce a second vh at the airfields.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Another reason to (a) perk the jabo fighters
*COUGH*(Or, inno's jabo solution) (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72514)
Somewhat tougher field 'strat' may be usefull...(500-1000lbs) to make it tougher to strafe.
Second VH though is a bad idea. One is plenty for handsomehunkes attacking the field to ignore. The problem strat at fields is the stuff that any fighter can kill by simple strafing.
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Originally posted by Virage
suprise, lazs wants to water down an already weak strategic model. The current system is nothing more than a minor inconvenience at best. And only to the other strat guys. It sure doesnt stop a good furball, which is the ultimate form of gaming right? It can limit vulture time tho, I guess that sucks.
But this whole argument is moot with a Dueling Arena specifically designed for those who would like to play in a strat free environ. But i guess it is more fun to b*!ch on the BB than fly there.
Technically speaking - in terms of MA, power projection in the MA, etc. - perk points are a strategic resource.
Think of it this way...when thinking of the MA in 'strategic' terms, i.e. field capture and field defense to 'win and reset the map and earn bonus perk points doing so' - if one side's players had a large # of perk points and the other side's players did not, as it stands now the side with an abundance of perk points could field an attacking force that outmatched the 'weak on perk points' side: Ar 234s, bombing from altitude, escorted by Me 262s and Ta 152s. The 'strong' side could conduct numerous fighter bomber missions with Tempest Mk. Vs and F4U-4s that a side not able to deploy 'perked' fighters would be hard pressed to defend against. The 'weak perk' side would have an almost impossible time in the attack - due to facing Me 262s and Me 163s.
The perk points are out there as an effective strategic resource. The main reason that this isn't 'obvious' at present is because they aren't being voluntarily used as much as they might be, because some people don't like to fly Ta 152s, Me 262s, etc.
Mike/wulfie
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exactly... perk points are useless to me and to most people. Now if you are saying that I am unskilled and that I can't earn perk points then ok... But... how much "skill" is required to jabo the fuel? None. certainly, if I earn perk points by flying slow or inferior planes in a late war arena .... I wshould be entitled to have some effect on the "strat"? Certainly my skill in earning perks is at the very least.... on a par with that of the building battlers? Perhaps a reward that suits me would be in order?
besides.... It is just me taking off... how many no skill buildning battlers can i kill befor I run out of ammo anyway? doubt if I would average more than about 4 or so.
I am also for either perking every fast plane or.... better yet... every bomb over 100 lbs should be perked.
lazs
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Seems like a pretty good idea to me. I actually think it would lend to a slightly more realistic aproach to some areas.
MiniD
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I'm hording my perk points in the hopes that some big wonderful omnipotent vehicle will be introduced that will change the face of combat as we know it.
Like a player-controlled lone-wolf battleship.
Or submarines.
Or a Sherman Calliope.
Or a P-61 Black Widow.
Or Superfortresses.
Or commandos/pilots with handguns.
The only side that would benefit from using perk points to create raw materials would be Bishops, who won a majority of the map resets prior to the load-balancing perk expenditure system was implemented. So there.
I like the idea of perking the 500 and 1000 pound bombs, but still prefer a 2nd vh, particularly at Vehicle Baseswhich should, by their name, have more than one hangar. Harder structures would just mean longer vulch cycles before base capture.
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As noted in the other thread, I think Wulfie had a great idea.
"perked jabo planes "
What do you mean by that GoFaster--every plane with an "attack" option, or simply the planes you don't like having to fight against?
J_A_B
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No, this would change the gameplay. Why would I want to come and take out your fuel if you can still up %100 anyway. I don't care if you loose points, I want to make the field easier to take or spoil an attack on my own field. This idea just makes furballing the objective of the game and there are tons of sims out there that do that.
For those who don't like the perk planes for whatever reason, TS. Fly the planes you like, forget about the perks. I think an idea to use the perks should not change the gameplay or objective of the game.
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Is this a petition? Or am I in the wrong building? Signed anyway.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
As noted in the other thread, I think Wulfie had a great idea.
"perked jabo planes "
What do you mean by that GoFaster--every plane with an "attack" option, or simply the planes you don't like having to fight against?
J_A_B
No actually I was thinking that if someone wanted to do a jabo raid, it should cost them a little something extra. Inno's idea of perking the 500lb and 1000lb ordinance is a good start. Rockets would have to be free, though, in order to counter the gv raiders. I think this would eliminate a lot of the 1-way trips to carriers and airfields since pilots would lose the bomb perks spent if they failed to land.
Keep in mind that Spits, 109s, 190s, LA-7s, Zeroes, P-40E, etc. have a limited bomb capability already, so they could do a jabo role but their impact on a ground war would be limited. On the other hand, dive bombers with a greater bomb load-out should, historically, have a greater role in ground attack. Their balancing weakness is that they are slower and easier to catch by interceptors. Hi-alt level bombing is already challenging enough, so the biggies should get the bigger bombs without penalty.
I think that over the course of a month or so you'd start to see more dogfighting and less unrestricted destruction of airfield facilities, since nobody would jabo without a fighter escort, unless they were in a dogfighter loaded with a couple of 250s underneath.
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Originally posted by MotorOil
...No, this would change the gameplay. Why would I want to come and take out your fuel if you can still up %100 anyway. I don't care if you loose points, I want to make the field easier to take or spoil an attack on my own field. This idea just makes furballing the objective of the game and there are tons of sims out there that do that..
No. What it would mean is that you might actually have to do battle with a human opponent instead a building.
I too would like to see many more things we could spend perks on. I would like to see the vanilla plane and its basic gun package be free and anything else added cost perks. Ie., DT's, ordinance and external guns.
F.
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Originally posted by Furious
No. What it would mean is that you might actually have to do battle with a human opponent instead a building.
F.
You'll see me over a town defending until the fuel is taken out and you'll see me attacking towns until the ord is taken out. The battle (furball) happens before the infrastructure is taken out. Killing the building is the reward of winning the furball. If you can purchase ords and fuel with perks it will disrupt the game flow/game play.
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Good idea wulfie.
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yep... don't care... either make fuel a perk idea for gameplay and realism or....
perk the stupid ordinance... perk every bomb or just those over 100lbs... perk drop tanks and rockets... If you really are so skilled a building battler "winning the furball" so that you can buildijng battle... then you should have no trouble earning perks to load large bombs.
lazs
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I like that idea. Please do it!
This will change the field capture mechanism form deac-vulch to deac-dehangar-vulch-perkrides :D :D :D
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Originally posted by J_A_B
What do you mean by that GoFaster--every plane with an "attack" option, or simply the planes you don't like having to fight against?
Oh, by the way, my Yak9U eats Mustangs and Typhoons for breakfast and lunch, then has Corsairs, Lightnings, and Hellcats for dinner. :p
Its the LA-7s, Spitfires, and N1K2's that get me, and you'll notice I'm not asking for them to be perked.
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Originally posted by Innominate
The 'strat' targets at the fields however are soft, easy to kill, and capable of rendering a field impotent for long stretches of time.
One of the things I liked in AW was the length of down time for bases. Down times for field targets was fifteen minutes and if you wanted to keep a field down then you had to destroy the depots and factories. Later versions of AW even let you capture the depots and factories and use them as part of your country's supply network.
Ack-Ack
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ccvi... exactly.. if the building battlers really wanted to take the field they could mob all the ai and then vultch... just as now.. people wouldn't probly up a capped field... perk or not but..
if the milkrunners porked fuel at bases all around the capped field you could at least up with ful fuel from a nearby, and now ignored, base.
would rather see bombs perked tho.
lazs
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The battle (furball) happens before the infrastructure is taken out. Killing the building is the reward of winning the furball. I
Not entirely accurate MotorOil.....I can dive bomb a field with all kinds on nme fighters up and never get touched by the nme fighters.
That happens all the time, best way to kill a determined field porker is to wait till AFTER he drops (in most cases you won't catch him before he drops anyway....) and zooms up.
I like the idea of using perks to gain extra fuel and for 500/1000 lb bombs. Especially for bombs.....would put a serious dent in the numbers of pork 'n auger guys I think.
Elfie
Armageddon Pile-it
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Outstanding idea wulfie, this has my vote.
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This is not QUAKE, lets not use POWER UPS....and lets not screw the strategic system. Exactly what benifit would strategic strikes have if this idea was put into play....NONE
The only way I would even consider it is if it was a HUGE perk cost (100+ minimum) and allowed only a 1 step fuel increase (25% into 50%). Otherwise it just makes strategic targets worth nothing.
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Just think of the last Pizza map reset last week, where us rooks were down to two or three fields. It took the opposition over two hours to get the reset on us and our fuel was down to %50 - %25 for most of the time. We would have been there for another week if we could use perks for ord, fuel or even goons. Good idea for use of perks but it still would alter the gameplay too much. You have to be able to wipe out the human component to cap the field.
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Originally posted by MotorOil
Just think of the last Pizza map reset last week, where us rooks were down to two or three fields. It took the opposition over two hours to get the reset on us and our fuel was down to %50 - %25 for most of the time. We would have been there for another week if we could use perks for ord, fuel or even goons. Good idea for use of perks but it still would alter the gameplay too much. You have to be able to wipe out the human component to cap the field.
Then blow up the fighter hangars and the bomber hangars.
A single P-51D who is looking to be a suicide bomber can't kill all the fighter and bomber hangars.
Oh, wait, then there wouldn't be guys rolling with 25% fuel to shoot down 'on takeoff' so some people might not find a way to 'fake' k/d, k/t, etc. (NOTE: not saying that you, personally, are a 'vulching expert' MotorOil, but I've noticed lots of people unwilling to strafe hangars down when trying to capture a field).
If you kill the hangars, the fuel % don't matter.
Mike/wulfie
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Seems like a fine use for perk points to me.
Hooligan
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Can we just trade in perkies for AH merchandise? ')
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Sounds like a good idea.
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yep... the "impossible field capture" arguement is lame. Spits taking off with 25% fuel are more nimble defenders than with 50% ... the building battler planes... pee 51's and Hogs (especialy the -1a) are more than happy with 25% fuel to get to the next base.
I am talking about all the "good" fields, those close to any fight, being down on fuel and at the same time... the only fields with cons even close are capped by hordes of B&Z sissies who don't even show up till the lemmings have done their work.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Guess I'd like to see less "perking" in this game, rather than more -- IMO, it's the most "gamey" aspect of AH.
To counter the suicide jabos, I'd restrict ordinance from a player who dies within (some number of) seconds after dropping ordinance. Still gamey, but death did involve a "restricted future" IRL. Drop a bomb and die within 10 seconds, you get no bombs for 3 hours. This would at least impede the "die and repeat" jabo hordes.
Also, I'd put a couple of manable quad 20mm acks on the fields. This would allow one or two players to counter the lone fuel killer jabo.
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The main point I’m making here is, by allowing players to use perks, for ord and fuel it is taking away from the main objective of the game and adding an unbalance that you can not take away. What has attracted me the most to AH is the fact you can go on a sortie and have an objective other than to furball. You can go out and put the opposition at a disadvantage by taking out the strats. Does allowing players spend their perks on fuel an ord add to the game or just give the players who have accumulated 10000+ perks and hate perk rides an advantage? What would be the purpose of having strats at airfields anymore if you can just purchase what you want. 25% fuel does not allow the opposition to gain 15k alt above your own field for very long. Nimble or not, you can’t kill what you can’t catch.