Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on March 02, 2003, 03:56:14 PM
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Atheists claim that the main reasons people are reliogious are because they are insecure and fear death, violence and need to feel purpose to life, etc. and prefer to irrationally believe in some supreme being that is overseing the whole world and will not allow bad things happen to them since they are not sinners, or at least any such tragedy that is allowed to happen is not permanent and will be remedied in afterlife.
I happen to agree with that - which should not offend christians, since the fathers of the church lone ago proved that christianity is based on faith and cannot be based on reason (Beyle, Augustin, etc.) and it would explain why people believe in other gods, anyway.
So far so good. The problem is that most atheists do not stop and examine what happens to those people that regected religion based on reason. After all, the people are still the same - the nature of humanity did not change. So if most of people so desired the feeling of security that they allowed their reason to be overridden, what are they doing now in view of those character traits?
The answer is simple - most of them still have an irrational, cultist belief in a superior all-cnowing entity that could help ensure security, provide purpose in life and make sence of this unpreduictable world. They believe in the power of the state, "society", "democracy" to guide them the right way - despite constant evidence to the contrary.
Insecurity is just one reason why most atheists are socialists of one kind or another - including communists. There are more reasons but this is the major one.
That is why, being an atheist, I would chose to live in a christian society any time - or at least untill atheists get much smarter and more secure. Religion is christians' private family affair and when people who do not express their insecurities through irrational politics, it allows to run society on a rational basis. If I have to be content with pornography being sold at the back of a store rather than displayed in a storefront window - so be it... ;)
miko
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So in essence what you mean is that the people in faith live in a false sense of security and build thier lives accordingly. Then when they cross the thin thin line that separates the wealthy from the gutter, they can only bury deeper in thier insanity and preferably spice it up with some drugs. Gosh, what went wrong? Why am I being punished like this?
Whereas others may consider the greater benefit and share some of thier wealth to the unfortunate. The capitalist system can throw a person from middle class to the gutter simply because they happen to get a chronic disease.. They can't work anymore and have to sell the house just to pay the medical expenses.
With a state supported medical system and social support networks in place (and do not confuse this with socialism which often seems frail on many americans) this could not happen in most cases. Even then it is possible, though. Even in the nordic countries where the social security is the highest in the world, there are people living out in cardboard houses. They are beyond reach of help because of thier alcohol problems and have chosen the way of life on thier own.
But nobody has to end up there against thier will.. Everyone gets offered an appartment and sufficient money to survive untill the time the persons manage to get back into work. If they don't manage to get to work, they will live at the verge of poverty.. But still in a warm house with electricity, water, clothing bills paid and a plate of food in front of them every day.
I'd be scared to live in a society that didn't guarantee my well-being at times that I need it the most (such as sickness.)
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Originally posted by miko2d
Insecurity is just one reason why most atheists are socialists of one kind or another - including communists. There are more reasons but this is the major one.
Please provide a link showing statistically atheists are mostly socialists? I for one am a capitilist and so are most other atheists I know.
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NM
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I'll raise ya one Miko. Atheists are more inconsistent than you suggest. If there is no afterlife and no judgement therein for your life lived then why not throw off all the shackles of conscience and morality? Why not live to the exclusive benefit of you and yours? Support for society so long as it is to your benefit, right?
I'll bet we might find a few religions lurking in your existence as well, if we looked closely enough.
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my family has been atheist for over 200 years, and yes we are socialist. We believe in doing good for community sake not for selfish reasons or because we are scared of some mystical cloud being.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I'll raise ya one Miko. Atheists are more inconsistent than you suggest. If there is no afterlife and no judgement therein for your life lived then why not throw off all the shackles of conscience and morality? Why not live to the exclusive benefit of you and yours? Support for society so long as it is to your benefit, right?
I'll bet we might find a few religions lurking in your existence as well, if we looked closely enough.
Believe it or not, it is possible to have a conscience and to be a moral person without being religious.
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Not arguing that Sandman, my question is what's the point?
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The point? Treat people the way you want to be treated. Most if not all will return the favor.
Instant benefit and you don't have to wait for an afterlife.
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Sure, there is benefit in that. No conscience or morality required though. Either of those might require you to do the "right" thing even if there was no tangible reward.
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Put it this way... it doesn't feel good to treat people poorly.
I'm in it for me. :)
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the point of it akiron is that society wouldnt function if we were all selfish aholes, and not just half. Evolution has bread these traits into us. Like why does a chimp bring back food to his society(of course after taking his share)? If we didnt have these traits ingrained into us, basic survival of our species wouldnt happen. How does a salmon know what to do? Or why do even the insects form societys? Its basic evolution. something that we are just starting to explore and understand through dna studies.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
the point of it akiron is that society wouldnt function if we were all selfish aholes, and not just half. Evolution has bread these traits into us. Like why does a chimp bring back food to his society(of course after taking his share)? If we didnt have these traits ingrained into us, basic survival of our species wouldnt happen. How does a salmon know what to do? Or why do even the insects form societys? Its basic evolution. something that we are just starting to explore and understand through dna studies.
We've had many lengthy threads regarding evolution vs creation. I'm not interested in debating that at present. The thread was started by Miko (imo) criticising Atheists for their lack of faith. I may be in agreement with him here concerning you. Your argument does conform to those to which he was referring.
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It is also interesting to note most, if not all, atheists and agnostics believe in LUCK.
:D
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Luck? There is no such thing as luck. Only probability. :)
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of course atheists are inconsistant. the whole point of it is trying to figure out life on your own without someone holding your hand. Most atheists i know study religions takeing the best of each from all of them. while still understanding its just humanitys. the bible the illiad are both nice little story books.
and akiron you wanted a reason why people that are atheist have insentive to be good people i posted a reason. its not insentive its more of a basic instinct.
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miko's point is it's easy and comfortable to hide behind the cloaks of a christian nations ethics.. kinda like a pacifist enjoying the rewards of others blood being spilt to insure their freedom.
disgusting. dishonest. shallow.
those that believe, need no explanation. for those that don't, no explanation will suffice.
I think the points put up by Sian, Sandy, AKIron, and the Frog all point to a more rational dogma.. they are, weather they know it or not, Humanists.. not 'athesists'.
What I do think is that our lives and ethics and society should shed the myths from the past and try to create a better world for our time. Most of us humanists have done that relative to religion. I think that economic and political myths deserve the same scrutiny and subsequent bashing as does the Bible. I think that free market economic theory falls into this category of myth. Much as faith healing, the resurrection, or the second coming does. Many of the theorems and ultimatums from the theory just do not stand up in the light of historical or contemporary analysis. -- Walter Laffer
Try again Miko. we're on to yah.
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would have used the word humanist a couple posts ago but didnt think anyone would understand it.
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Hmmm... I tend to think of Satanism as Humanism. :)
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So.. if I read that correctly:
Everyone needs a security blanket
Christians choose God (Jesus morality)
Atheists choose politics (social morality)?
(Nutshell Miko mode off)
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Siaf__csf: I'd be scared to live in a society that didn't guarantee my well-being at times that I need it the most
Good point. Take good care of yourself while you are still healthy and buy disability insurance. Than nobody would have to be forced to waste money on people who hurt themselves. There is always charity, of course.
By the way - nobody says a free-market society could not have a predetermined welafe system sufficient to preseve health while a person is out of work. It should not be an attractive choice to employment like current welfare system is.
Vulcan: Please provide a link showing statistically atheists are mostly socialists? I for one am a capitilist and so are most other atheists I know.
No link. I used my own brains this time.
I am an atheist and a free-market capitalist. You say you are one too and your friends, but most people who claim the same are really collectivists. I would have to know more of your position to make a judgement for myself. Of course if I counted everyne who just claimed that he/she stands for capitalism or freedom or democracy, the majority of people would be in that category - even Hangtime! :)
If there is no afterlife and no judgement therein for your life lived then why not throw off all the shackles of conscience and morality?
Concience and morality are parts of a culture. They can exist outside a religion. How can a person throw off his own conscience and morality? One can flaunt the common norms - unless he fears punishment by law, but hardly his own.
AKIron: Why not live to the exclusive benefit of you and yours?
I mostly do just that. And many other people too. Fortunately, in a capitalist system (which US still is to a considerable degree), a person benefits others while pursuing his own profit. Society is not based on voluntary cooperation but on competition - with everyone better off as a result.
Frogm4n: We believe in doing good for community sake not for selfish reasons...
Do not confuse charity with socialism. The second is mandatory, so your belief would be irrelevant along with your morals - and it would not be up to you to decide what "good" society needs doing most.
AKIron: The thread was started by Miko (imo) criticising Atheists for their lack of faith.
No, no - I was criticising "atheists" for too much faith and too little reason! And too little honesty and too much hippocricy. With a religious person, you know where he stands.
OIO: It is also interesting to note most, if not all, atheists and agnostics believe in LUCK.
Not atheists - "atheists".
Hangtime: miko's point is it's easy and comfortable to hide behind the cloaks of a christian nations ethics..
Not at all. I did not make eny judgments of religion here - this thread is about atheists. I cited the way some "atheists" denigrade religious people while effectively pursuing irrational beliefs themselves. Just read what I post, give your fantasy some rest....
midnight Target: So.. if I read that correctly:
Everyone needs a security blanket
Christians choose God (Jesus morality)
Atheists choose politics (social morality)?
:) Change that "eveyone" to "almost everyone" and I would agree.
Or rather, I do need a security blanket as much as any "atheist" or faithfull, but I would just not deceive myself that it is possible to have one.
miko