Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Beefcake on May 03, 2001, 06:46:00 PM
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I think for gameplay reasons dar should be limited to tower and maybe AWACS planes (if we get them...IE PBY5 Catalina). If this were done, it would make the game much more exicting as once in the air, you would have no idea where the enemy is at, and you must keep your SA up. Whos for it?
[This message has been edited by Beefcake (edited 05-04-2001).]
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YOu know Beefcake... DJ doesn't "flame" people unless their suggestion is obviously inane or what they want changed could be subverted through using an ounce of intelligence.
Oh yeah, this has been brought up before. Oh yeah, it's been beat to death. Oh yeah, consider this a flame from AKSeaWulfe... I think your idea is stupid.
-SW
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How about limit it to only sector bars inflight, no contact dots..you'll still know where the action is, only you'll have to keep your eyes open and treat every con as if it where a badguy.
[This message has been edited by pugg666 (edited 05-03-2001).]
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I don't know if I'd like this or not, but it wouldn't bother me if HTC tried it out in the MA for a tour. Would that be so horrible?
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Not a stupid idea at all, in my opinion. I thought it rocked in warbirds, and I think it would spread the fights out here. In-flight radar is just too much intel, in my opinion. Half the fun of a flight simm should be the ability to bounce someone, and this ability is severely hampered with in-flight radar.
Not knowing whether there is a con around, adds to the suspense element.
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Turn off the dot and bar radar unless you are in the tower, please. It will create a more realistic and entertaining sim.
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Ya, as everyone know radar didn't exist until after WWII. The fighter pilots in WWII just flew around randomly until they encountered something. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
There are many ways that the radar system could be improved. Turning it off is not one of them.
Those of you who fly 3-5 hours a day might enjoy having no radar info, but those of us who fly .5-1 hour a day would no longer be able to participate. I can't justify using my very limited free time to fly around hoping to run into a con so that I can fight.
I would like to see a "below 500 feet, no dot and no dar show up" mod to the current radar system.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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As far as "in tower" radar goes....
diddly it, just turn the whole thing off. We all know how cooperative everyone is in the game, asking where the fight is from someone inside the tower isn't gonna work.
I can count on both feet and hands the number of times I've logged in and asked a question "What is going on at xxx field?" and the same number of times not gotten a reply.
I simply don't do it anymore.
Setup up current radar for no bar under 300 feet and flying through mountain ranges or close to the tops of mountains and you've got yourself a winner.
As of now, you show up on bar radar below 300ft (or whatever it is) and if you are flying over mountain ranges (like 100 feet above the top of a mountain) you still show up as a dot. Even flying through canyons (radar would have a squeak of a time working in there) you show up on dot radar.
-SW
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I logged onto my first online simm in warbirds in the fall of '98. There were 230+ in the main arena at that time, and I never once heard anyone complain that they couldn't view it from their airplane.
We all squeak and whine about the nastiness on the radio. Well, over in that other simm, they use their radio to tell their countrymen where the fight is. When guys replane, they check dar, and let the guys know what is going on.
Please don't just say it sux unless you know what the heck you're talking about. Lets try to keep this discussion based on facts. I'm sure HT has good reasons for the way it is, I've heard he is not flexible on it. I hope he reconsiders if this is the case.
Karnak, if you fly for 30 minutes, do you really think the fight is gonna evaporate from the time you look at radar in the tower (or maproom), and the time you get to the fight?
HTC has built a great game, and I'm glad to be here, don't get me wrong, I just remember the good times in the WB's main and historical arena. You actually had to check your six...
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 05-03-2001).]
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Originally posted by Mr. T:
diddly it, just turn the whole thing off. We all know how cooperative everyone is in the game, asking where the fight is from someone inside the tower isn't gonna work.
-SW
You'd be very surprised my friend.
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That's why i'm saying at least leave the sector bars in flight...it lets you know something is there, not specifically where it is (25x25 miles is a fairly big area even for a fighter cruising at 350 true)
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Pugg666 XO
Braunco Mustangs
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I would certainly enjoy (ie ~1/3 of time online) flying recon for the country in a radar plane (if all other dar was unavailable, or only also in tower)like PBY Cat, it's a nice break from DFing.
Wouldn't this make for more strategism?
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I'm all for no sector bars for NOE flying.. that's something that is not used enough in AH.
Most the rest I'd leave as is. Most of the raids I see anymore involve the base's radar dish being taken out first. Voila.. no more cons.
And, kiss my bellybutton beefcake... any other handles there?
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by hblair:
You'd be very surprised my friend.
Unless it pops out of a huge cake with booby tassles(and has REAL boobies...) on it and gives me a lap dance with free beer.... well I won't be surprised...
BUT if people were cooperative on this issue and I could wrassle a response out of them (Give me 30 minutes of pointless banter on ch1 and I can usually find a fight or start one <G> ) then MAYBE in tower would work.
Thing about WB(v.91->2.0) was, it had... what 4 fields per side? (excluding med map, but I think that only had maybe 6 fields per side)... so there was a fight going on at one of those fields and it didn't require you to go very far to find it.
Don't need dot radar, but bar radar with _THIS_ many fields is a neccessity.
-SW
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I sat here wondering what it is that make people, same people that would probably be nice to have a beer with one on one, immediatley jump on anything a poster says with as much a negative attitude as they do. On top of that to follow it up with a string of vulgarities in an additional post.
What gives people? Why the chip on the shoulder?
It's gotten to the point that I automaticaly start bypassing those people's posts in any thread. Got to where what they say can pretty well be anticipated so it has lost any meaning to me.
The poster on this thread has obviously been bitten before so he did start it with some negativity himself, but at least the topic is worth discussing.
I do like the radar arrangement in WB, one of the very few things I still like about that game, at least I assume it is still that way, havn't flown it since AH came about.
The early beta radar we had here was pretty cool too without the dot dar. It would show you there was activity in the sector but not specificaly where. Still left some chance to it.
No sector bars or dot dar under 300 or 500 feet would be nice, it would allow the element of surprise.
Several different ways to do it I guess. Some better than others, at least in my opinion.
(http://home.att.net/~lmluper/markatsig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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The Catalina was AWACS? And I thought it's radar was for detecting surface ships...
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Don't pop their bubble Juzz. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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My $.02: No plane in WWII had a readout of the precise immediate location of every plane nearby in the cockpit. Sorry.
If you don't think "tower only" stuff will work, take a look at WB. It works great there, and allows for a bit of sneakiness. And, surprise surprise, people do give DAR updates to pilots in flight. Who woulda thunk it?
Some of the best kills are GCI ones. some of the most satisfying missions are when you trip across a bomber strike 40 miles out. When that happens, nobody's lazy and "might get around" to organizing an intercept. You get an interceptor force immediately. Long range bomber strikes are more satisfying: you either avoid detection, and kick ass, or someone spots you and it's a slaughter. As it is now, someone spots you, and it's a slaughter. Yee-haw.
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I agree 100% with Beefcake and Funked, turn of sector bars and inflight radar.
The way it is now, we have 2001 model radar in our 1944 model plane, and that cant be right ?
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(http://www.lasse.as/twvl.gif)
The Wild Vikings
Commanding Officer
Lasse
[This message has been edited by lasse (edited 05-04-2001).]
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Originally posted by Dinger:
My $.02: No plane in WWII had a readout of the precise immediate location of every plane nearby in the cockpit. Sorry.
If you don't think "tower only" stuff will work, take a look at WB. It works great there, and allows for a bit of sneakiness. And, surprise surprise, people do give DAR updates to pilots in flight. Who woulda thunk it?
Some of the best kills are GCI ones. some of the most satisfying missions are when you trip across a bomber strike 40 miles out. When that happens, nobody's lazy and "might get around" to organizing an intercept. You get an interceptor force immediately. Long range bomber strikes are more satisfying: you either avoid detection, and kick ass, or someone spots you and it's a slaughter. As it is now, someone spots you, and it's a slaughter. Yee-haw.
Well said dinger. Pretty much sums up how I feel too...
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I can count on both feet and hands the number of times I've logged in and asked a question "What is going on at xxx field?" and the same number of times not gotten a reply.
Mr. T,
Have you considered joining a squad? If you have and still do not get any participation maybe you need to join a squad that understands the value of assisting each other. Just a thought.
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Edbert,
check Mr. T's signature
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Bar dar is needed in the MA, and since the MA has no historical basis anyway it fits fine. Bar dar is OK in scenarios, since it doesn't give *too* much more information than radar then could have provided, although it would be much preferable and much more immersive to have someone give radar info from the tower instead.
Dot dar, however, gives too much info away *during combat*--it's just like having another view. It has no place, either in the MA, or in scenarios. (Same with the plane icon showing direction and exact location on the map.)
All IMHO, of course. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
anRky
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About enemy sector bars:
1 - Substitute the actual quadrants by hexagons.
2 - Activate enemy sector bars only on the hexagons with friendly bases and the hexagons that surround these.
3 - Refresh enemy sector bars every 10 secons on the hexagons that have friendly bases and every 20 seconds on the hexagons that surround these.
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Turn off the dar.. turn off ...
ok.. so it's been beat to death.
It is still a great idea and one that would make the MA less of a bang-fest.
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First.....I would have to agree with Mark Luper. When a post to change a feature or a "out of the box" idea is posted a very few select group of players seem to pounce on the poster. Everyone knows who they are. Yes you are entitled to your opinion, but you might try some civility and politeness. Its so easy to be rude and disrespectful when your not in person. Please this is a public board and your Gestapo attitude gives the game a bad name in the eyes of new players and potential players. With online friends like you who needs enemies?
Now for the radar debate....hblair, funked and all ex WB's I too miss the WB style of radar and agree with you 1000%. I remember the Point Blank scenario that the radar played a big part in it. It was great. I do agree the the modern ATC type setup we have now takes all of the surprize out of the game. I if I do remember we had at least 6 fields through ver 1.01 then went to eight fields in WB. I never had a problem finding a fight. I would wish we could remove the inflight dot dar. Leave the BarDar above 300 feet. Its the inflight dot dar that jacks things up. Its a gameplay concession that is not needed. Look you have in tower radar and neon Icons while inflight. Currently no SA is needed until your in a fight with multiple cons. There is no chance for surprize. Hell if your gona leave the inflight dot dar on why not just add the CV to it so you know where its at all the time.
HiTech PLEASE consider your old radar setup from your last project. I miss it.
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I would have to agree about turning off in-flight dar.
Having sector bars in-flight is one thing but dots are another.
And YES I do beleive we would have some people who would sit in the tower and give out info. Just like in WB when someone dies they will give dar reports.
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Sure, there wasnt inflight radar in WW2. This isn't WW2, its a game/sim whatever you want to call it.
In WW2, fighters often flew hours and hours, mission after mission without finding an enemy, never having a fight.
Q:How many players in AH would be content to do that?
A: NONE
How many times have I heard guys ask with great dissapointment "no dar?" when the enemy had knocked out all radar? Plenty.
I would support tower radar only, it's what we had in Warbirds, and it often resulted in someone sitting in the tower giving directions and enemy sightings out to his countrymates. It worked well enough, and fostered a spirit of teamwork.
I don't mind the current radar situation either, sometimes nobody wants to sit in a tower to supply info, plus some times the numbers are so low nobody will be available to man the tower.
I really dont think inflight dar takes away from the game much, and it does help us find the action we want quickly and convieniently.
Stick with it as it is, or tower only, but dont eliminate it.
Dago
[This message has been edited by Dago (edited 05-04-2001).]
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I'm all for trying without dot-dar.Keep sector bars for A/C 300/500 ft above terrain.Vehicles should not show on bar.Worth trying for a tour anyways..<S!>
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Why do people feel the need to post using an alias to on online flightsim alias? Seems a tad tarded to me.
-L3
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Oops,almost forgot..And keep the tower-dar..<S!>
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What? game not boring enough for you as it is? Even with the in flight dar it is hard enough to find a DECENT fite in AH. WB was a completely different matter. In WB you looked at the dar and went there... Ther was a 99% chance that you would find fighters there or that the field would be closed and be yours in a minute or so. With the lame-o fighter hanger closure bug in AH all you find is a field with a couple of de-roofed buildings for damage and no fighters and maybe a dozen osties... and it stays enemey territory inteminably.
Again... it all boils down to the fighter hanger bug.
lazs
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Originally posted by Dago:
This is almost funny.
In WW2, fighters often flew hours and hours, mission after mission without finding an enemy, never having a fight.
Q:How many players in AH would be content to do that?
A: NONE
Nope, at least one, but then people tell me I'm odd... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>
[This message has been edited by Graywolf (edited 05-04-2001).]
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Yet another (barely thought out) demand for 'ultra-realism'.
Yeah, I'll fly around for a couple of hours before finding a fight. Then I'll fight for a few minutes before dying. And then, I'll do it all over again. Oh, the joy!
Some modification should be made to the radar system, but turning it off altogether is definitely not the answer.
What do you guys do for fun outside AH? Play golf? Sweet Jesus! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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What do you guys do for fun outside AH? Play golf? Sweet Jesus! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Actually golf can be quite fun when you play a beer a hole. Might last a couple hours longer and piss those off behind ya, but I bet ya will swear more times out there then you do flying this sim. And i second the idea
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(http://members.home.net/cgoolsby6/sachs1.jpg)
Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!
[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-04-2001).]
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I'd love to see no inflight dar but I don't think we will ever see it gone because there are too many arcade flyers here who want it left in, shame really as it seems this one 'feature' is what keeps alot of players out of AH.
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/revvin/No9Squadron.jpg)
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Revvin
No.9 Squadron RAF (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/revvin/Index.htm)
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Only Quakers use online rdar in WW2 sim !
Ps: buying stones to replace the guns in 190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sector bars realistically represent radio updates from the tower telling pilots "there are friendly units and also there is (a lot of) something somewhere in your area". They would even give you approximate altitude (average, high, real high).
Other players may do that from the tower, like in WB, but the game is about flying for your money, not playing flight controller.
Such situation updates were not too accurate and not very frequent. There was nothing like a point-radar of course, so that one should go.
miko
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL:
Mr. T,
Have you considered joining a squad? If you have and still do not get any participation maybe you need to join a squad that understands the value of assisting each other. Just a thought.
He is in a squad. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Yet another (barely thought out) demand for 'ultra-realism'.
Yeah, I'll fly around for a couple of hours before finding a fight. Then I'll fight for a few minutes before dying. And then, I'll do it all over again. Oh, the joy!
Some modification should be made to the radar system, but turning it off altogether is definitely not the answer.
What do you guys do for fun outside AH? Play golf? Sweet Jesus! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Not turn it off altogether...just the inflight crutch. You would still have sector bars and tower radar. What more do you need? How do you find a fight now? Don't you look in the tower radar to find the field closest to the action? The inflight "dot dar" is not needed. It ruins the need for any BIR (beyond icon range (tm) ) SA. You just fly to the gaggle of dots on the radar. You can do the same thing from the tower radar you just have slower refresh times (per sortie). I say kill the tacas system and use the tower radar.
This is not ultra realism. If I wanted that I would be asking for not dot dar anywhere and you would get a radar position like a gunner with a dish instead of a gun. Your display would be a line graph showing range ( _____|____ ) to target. You would have to point the dish to the target for max amplitude for altitude and direction. Then you would have to give these vectors to the planes in flight. In other words a radar operators position. That would be realism. All I would like to see is a concesion from the modern ATC setup w/tacas we have now.
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For it. It would definitely add to the pucker factor.
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL:
Mr. T,
Have you considered joining a squad? If you have and still do not get any participation maybe you need to join a squad that understands the value of assisting each other. Just a thought.
I am in one and I consider them to be the best group of people I have ever had the priviledge of being associated with.... problem is a lot of the time they aren't online. Now that proves to be a bit of dilemma.
Unless you think I should call them at home, or at work while they are doing something important to them in their life and say "Hey dude, could you log in and look at the map on the tower... I can't find anything cuz no one else will reply to me."
Knights, Rooks, Bishops... all the same. I can ask all I want but until I flood the channel with the same question repeatedly I don't get an answer.
-SW
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I agree.
No dots/inflight dar.
just sector bars while inflight
and dots from the tower.
You can still find a fight by sector bar.
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First.....I would have to agree with Mark Luper. When a post to change a feature or a "out of the box" idea is posted a very few select group of players seem to pounce on the poster.
Of course, these people that are pounced on are always presenting well thought out, well represented and non-insulting posts.
They never start with "HTC I QUIT IF YOU DON'T...." or "ANYONE THAT DOES THIS SUCKS" or "DO THIS NOW!" or simply decides to insult people before even presenting an argument.
The poor victims of this game.
How about this... if people want to avoid hostile replies, try by avoiding inults in the very first sentance of the post. That would be a really great place to start. Then, try thinking a tad bit about what is being proposed and who it is making the game better for.
As for the idea of turning off Radar for the sake of in flight realism.. I'm all for it. ...Just as soon as we have pilots willing to patrol designated bases doing nothing but waiting for aircraft... with other pilots on standby in the tower waiting to relieve them when their patrol is done.
Nobody wants realism in this game.. that is not fun.
AKDejaVu
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Ferchrissakes, it is freaking hard enough to find a fight in this game as it is. Without in flight radar it will become impossible far more often.
As far as the realism arguments go: WWII fighters had ground controllers vectoring them to the enemy aircraft. Except for the missing altitude information, the AH radar dots simulate this well enough. I suppose if HTC added a command to request information (something like .vector) that would yield a list of enemy positions i.e.:
5 enemy bearing 285, alt 15k, heading 90
2 enemy bearing 315, alt 1k, heading 0
etc.....
then the inflight DAR could be dispensed with.
Of course, the current system is so much easier and already in place....
Hooligan
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Ever read this thread about Radar?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001639.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001639.html)
You should, since it effects all radar and not just in-flight stuff.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"I wanted to go back for another 50 missions, but they ruled it out
because I had a case of malaria that kept recurring. So I had to stay
in the States and teach combat flying. I was shot down by a mosquito!"
Frank Hurlbut, P-38 pilot
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/behappy.jpg)
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Ok, guys who think we are idiots for not liking in-flight radar. Geniuses, tell me, Why is *not being able to find a fight* rarely (if ever) an issue over at warbirds?
?
Why?
No BS, No butt kissing, but a well thought out reason. Can you do it?
And try to do it without slamming warbirds, after all, that was HT and Pyro's baby.
Hooligan, no matter how much you warm up to lazs, he won't ever let you drive the healey.
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Always seemed to find good fights in beta before the dot dar was instituted. Seemed like you could actually have time for a dance.
JimBear
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And don't say that wb's has different # bases, or bigger terrain, as that is adjustable per the terrain editor. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Like I said, I'm not being critical of HTC, just kicking around thoughts here.
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QUOTE:
Nobody wants realism in this game.. that is not fun.
AKDejaVu
In this matter you are seriously mistaken !!
Reading the replies to this thread, I still don't see any reason at all to keep the inflight radar.
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(http://www.lasse.as/twvl.gif)
The Wild Vikings
Commanding Officer
Lasse
[This message has been edited by lasse (edited 05-04-2001).]
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Originally posted by lasse:
Reading the replies to this thread, I still don't see any reason at all to keep the inflight radar.
I see several reasons for having in flight bar radar at the very least.
-SW
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Nobody wants realism in this game.. that is not fun.
AKDejaVu
In this matter you are seriously mistaken !!
Don't think so. I do believe you are mistaking people who cite realism as a reason to change things as people who want things to be realistic.
AKDejaVu
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SW, those reasons would be __________.
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 05-04-2001).]
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Of course, these people that are pounced on are always presenting well thought out, well represented and non-insulting posts.
DJV quite often they are not negitive and some are well thougth out and come from past experience and still they get beat down. Its just an overbering negitive attitude to any changes to the current way the game is. Without improvements or inovation things get stagnent. Humans are by nature resistant to change, but variety is the spice of life.
They never start with "HTC I QUIT IF YOU DON'T...." or "ANYONE THAT DOES THIS SUCKS" or "DO THIS NOW!" or simply decides to insult people before even presenting an argument.
Some do. Some present valid ideas. Some whine. We all know what area we fall into.
The poor victims of this game.
How about this... if people want to avoid hostile replies, try by avoiding inults in the very first sentance of the post. That would be a really great place to start.
Agree 1000%
Then, try thinking a tad bit about what is being proposed and who it is making the game better for.
We will never know. The vocal minority rule.
As for the idea of turning off Radar for the sake of in flight realism.. I'm all for it. ...Just as soon as we have pilots willing to patrol designated bases doing nothing but waiting for aircraft... with other pilots on standby in the tower waiting to relieve them when their patrol is done.
Nobody wants realism in this game.. that is not fun.
AKDejaVu
Read my 2nd post. I don't want to turn off the dar altogether. Just the inflight radar. Leave the tower radar alone. Your telling me you decide what base to fly from without looking at the tower dar? Most fights are found from the tower dar. The inflight dar provides no information about where a fight is, but does effect how the fight is carried out. The same info can be gleaned from the tower dar before you wheels up.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
How about this... if people want to avoid hostile replies,
AKDejaVu
Actually, why post a hostile reply at all? Why not post a well-reasoned, counter-point to the original post (even if the post is ludicrous, outrageous, or a I Quit post)?
Why go to that level in the reply? That I don't understand.
Blaming the original poster for one's own hostile reply is a bit of a stretch.
Cobra
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hblair:
I've already driven the Healy. Try not to make this event your entry into the ranks of the perpetually wrong (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
WB has a smaller map with fewer bases (meaning the action is closer and more concentrated) and only 2 sides (the enemy is never off fighting brand X), and most importantly you cannot shut down enemy fighter operations at an airbase so terribly easily. To clarify, when I say "a fight" I mean a fight between friendly and enemy fighters. It is not unusual to show up at an enemy base in AH and find a half dozen enemy osties as the only opposition. This does not qualify as "a fight" for my purposes and never happens in WB for obvious reasons.
In-flight DAR is one of the big advantages AH has over WB both in playability and realism. It would be a tragedy to get rid of it.
Hooligan
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Seems I remember WB having a couple arrows, red and white. Red pointed you towards enemy concentrations. Does that still exist?
Dago
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I hate doing this quote thing, but its the only way to answer your innacuracies <sp?>
Originally posted by Hooligan:
hblair:
I've already driven the Healy. Try not to make this event your entry into the ranks of the perpetually wrong (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Cool.
Originally posted by Hooligan:
WB has a smaller map with fewer bases (meaning the action is closer and more concentrated) and only 2 sides
Read above, map size is somewhat adjustable. Field numbers are very adjustable. No inflight 'dar was not an issue when I flew the main arena and there were four(4) countries.
Originally posted by Hooligan:
(the enemy is never off fighting brand X)
kinda like Acme? ?? Don't get this one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Originally posted by Hooligan:
(and most importantly you cannot shut down enemy fighter operations at an airbase so terribly easily.
I concede your point. I agree, sometimes FH's get blasted right in the middle of a furball, by people not really wanting to grab a field. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Perhaps HT could make it where all 3 hangars at small and medium firlds have to be down before fighter ops are affected? Just a thought.
Originally posted by Hooligan:
hblair:
In-flight DAR is one of the big advantages AH has over WB both in playability and realism. It would be a tragedy to get rid of it.
Hooligan
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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dago wrote:
Seems I remember WB having a couple arrows, red and white. Red pointed you towards enemy concentrations. Does that still exist?
In my recollection, these arrows pointed towards the center of the map 95% of the time. I actually knew where the center of the map was without their assistance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I did find them generally useless.
hblair:
Number of colors aside, on a good night when I was playing WB there might be 200 players up of which 180 were in fighters. These 180 fighters had 16 to 30 bases to fight over. Currently in AH during peak times we have 220 players on, but probably less than 150 are in fighters because players are manning shipboard guns, driving tanks, PT boats, etc… These fighters are distributed over about 55 bases that are generally farther apart than in WB. What this all means is that fighter density is much less in AH than it was in WB: probably something like 1/4th or less. If AH had similar fighter density (i.e. 900 players in the current map, or a much smaller map with only 20 bases) it would no doubt be much easier to find fights.
Back to you original point: It was much less hard to find a fight in WB due to higher fighter density and different base closure rules. Of course the AH map could be condensed and that would change the situation, but the fact remains that the AH maps are larger and bases are more numerous and spread out than they were in WB.
Hooligan
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It's gotten to the point that I automaticaly start bypassing those people's posts in any thread. Got to where what they say can pretty well be anticipated so it has lost any meaning to me.
Good post Mark. <S>
It only takes a bad apple or two to spoil the whole barrel.
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Originally posted by hblair:
SW, those reasons would be __________.
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 05-04-2001).]
#1) Number of fields. We don't know which fields contain activity if we don't have at the very least bar radar.
#2) Some people don't want to fly for 2 hours looking for a fight.
#3) Some people don't want to take off, go to a field and find it vacant then go back to base land and try a different field. Then repeat the process.
#4) Most people will not tell you what is going at a field, despite 14 guys being there... You think this will be different with 30 guys in the tower looking at radar?
#5) In flight bar radar represents ground controllers directing you to a fight.
#6) Radar was around in 1940 (Battle of Britain) and ground controllers were used to direct interceptors to an inbound raid. This is different from in flight bar radar, HOW?
#7) If I log in, and see enemies and friendlies somewhere on the map, I can go there and find a fight. However, when I'm in the air (in flight radar removed) and the fight ends... what are the chances of me getting a reply from someone in the tower that the fight has ended or moved or it's completely enemy?
#8) This game is about air combat, not about simulating WWII to the utmost realism (who got the F4U-1C 'perked' again?) and in flight radar provides means for each end user to be his own ground controller and pilot.
#9) I'm having fun with the current system, you need it changed because you believe it ruins your chances at jumping someone (you complained about getting the F4U-1C perked because it's quad hispanos ruined your fun... or maybe it was numbers... or maybe it was the flight model... I don't even remember anymore)... the MA in no way represents WWII... scenarios, check6 events and snapshots do that.
#10) I go into the MA expecting to be able to find action on my own terms and on my own ability. You want this taken away from me and the rest of the crowd because you believe it ruins YOUR chances of jumping someone or gang raping them.
#11) WB has the radar setup you want... if you like it so much, there *IS* another game that provides you with the radar setup you are looking for.
#12) Dot radar is like a WWII ground controller directing you to the enemy. "12 miles, vector 090, xxx bogies"
#13) Watch the history channel, you'll get the idea.
-SW
[This message has been edited by Mr. T (edited 05-04-2001).]
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Originally posted by Mr. T:
problem is a lot of the time they aren't online. Now that proves to be a bit of dilemma.
Unless you think I should call them at home, or at work while they are doing something important to them in their life and say "Hey dude, could you log in and look at the map on the tower... I can't find anything cuz no one else will reply to me."
Knights, Rooks, Bishops... all the same. I can ask all I want but until I flood the channel with the same question repeatedly I don't get an answer.
-SW
The delemma revolves around the fact that AK-SW need people to order around and tell what to do. He's a power tripin mongoloid. You can tell when his squads not online as he yells instructions at anyone and everyone and I suspect gets himself squelched by his own countrymen on a regular basis. Arabian Knights Sea Wolfe, the reason you get no answers is cause NO ONE IS LISTENING TO YOU!
Ya weenus.
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You wouldn't dare! think of all those Law suits if that 747 collided with that Me109 wile landing at LAX Oh boy!
Seriously I don't care ether way but I am a fan of realism,So if I was to take sides Id have to side with the what was it? (Gang banging vultures)who would dare to shoot down that lone >WWII< spit pilot who was auto climbing 100mi behind enemy lines wile eating the once frozen pizza he just took out of his 1940's microwave oven! hehe
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DG 483rd Tactical Fighter/Bomber wing
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Originally posted by Lizard3:
The delemma revolves around the fact that AK-SW need people to order around and tell what to do. He's a power tripin mongoloid. You can tell when his squads not online as he yells instructions at anyone and everyone and I suspect gets himself squelched by his own countrymen on a regular basis. Arabian Knights Sea Wolfe, the reason you get no answers is cause NO ONE IS LISTENING TO YOU!
Ya weenus.
I never tell anyone what to do. I let them know what fields are in danger of capturing and tell them "well 27 is done for.."
But wait, you are so illiterate that must translate into ordering around right?
Sorry dickweed, I don't tell anyone what to do. I ask for information and don't recieve a response.
Do you eat with the same orifice you speak with? Sure sounds like it.
-SW
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I liked the DAR back in the beta. I would love it if the Dar was only viewbable in the tower, or....
If they limited the Dot Dar range to 5 grids out from the HQ. Then have Sector Dar for 3 grids beyond that. No Dar for everything else.
And it would be cool if they would Shorten the TAG visual distance to that used in the EVENTS as well.
But that's only what I would like. I would prefer tagless all together (That was fun when we did that in the SEA room (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ).
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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
MAG-33 (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/M3.html)
'Criticism is easier than craftmanship.'
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The infight Radar in AH is without a doubt the worst feature of this great sim.
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CO - 111th Fighter Group
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What'd ya do, pull every semi-almost reason outa the air that you could dream up?
Well, here goes...
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#1) Number of fields. We don't know which fields contain activity if we don't have at the very least bar radar.
You do know that # of fields is completely adjustable in the terrain editor?
Who said no radar? tell me. It wasn't me. I said no ***>>>in-flight<<<*** radar. There is a difference between "no radar" and "no in-flight radar"
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#2) Some people don't want to fly for 2 hours looking for a fight.
Ya reckon? Now why would they do that without in-flight radar? I don't recall flying around two hours in warbirds looking for a fight. Be more specific. How would no in-flight radar lead to this??
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#3) Some people don't want to take off, go to a field and find it vacant then go back to base land and try a different field. Then repeat the process.
Ya know what? I gotta agree with ya, but let me add to it. I bet MOST (not some) people wouldn't really dig that. And again, no in-flight radar relates to this in what way? How long does it take you to fly between airfields on the front? 10 minutes tops? Do you really think the fight's gonna just evaporate in that time? Makes good scary P.R. though
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#4) Most people will not tell you what is going at a field, despite 14 guys being there... You think this will be different with 30 guys in the tower looking at radar?
They will. They did (and do) it over in warbirds. Why wouldn't they here? 30 guys in the tower huh? Is that supposed to be funny? I hope so.
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#5) In flight bar radar represents ground controllers directing you to a fight.
And a countryman or squaddie (you know, an honest to God real person) on radio or roger wilco does not represent this? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I would tend think it would more accurately represents this. You're arguing that real time *in the cockpit* radar better represents the real life BOB radar than a person vectoring you to the fight over the radio?
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#6) Radar was around in 1940 (Battle of Britain) and ground controllers were used to direct interceptors to an inbound raid. This is different from in flight bar radar, HOW?
refer to #5
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#7) If I log in, and see enemies and friendlies somewhere on the map, I can go there and find a fight. However, when I'm in the air (in flight radar removed) and the fight ends... what are the chances of me getting a reply from someone in the tower that the fight has ended or moved or it's completely enemy?
I would say your chances would be good. Why wouldn't they be? remember, this works in that other simm. This feature, belive it or not, brings the countrymen a little closer together because they actually depend on each other a little. Comeradery. <sp?>
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#8) This game is about air combat, not about simulating WWII to the utmost realism (who got the F4U-1C 'perked' again?) and in flight radar provides means for each end user to be his own ground controller and pilot.
Okay, in #5 and #6 you argue that the current radar accurately represents Battle of Brittain era radar. Now you're saying the game is "not about simulating WWII to the utmost realism".
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#9) I'm having fun with the current system, you need it changed because you believe it ruins your chances at jumping someone (you complained about getting the F4U-1C perked because it's quad hispanos ruined your fun... or maybe it was numbers... or maybe it was the flight model... I don't even remember anymore)... the MA in no way represents WWII... scenarios, check6 events and snapshots do that.
This is your best attempt so far. Yes, I personally feel that the "bounce" was the most used way to kill planes in WWII. You just didn't usually see guys coming from so far away. I also felt that the C-hawg had too strong a gun package to be mixed in with the main arena. Thats my opinion. And judging from what you posted in #9 here, you like the current status. You are entitled to your opinion, as i am entitled to mine.
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#10) I go into the MA expecting to be able to find action on my own terms and on my own ability. You want this taken away from me and the rest of the crowd because you believe it ruins YOUR chances of jumping someone or gang raping them
Look here hoss, you point out exactly where I said that kind of stuff. Where's the thread? ? ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Much more fun to pull it out of the air isn't it?
Try (real hard) to come up with some objective reasoning here.
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#11) WB has the radar setup you want... if you like it so much, there *IS* another game that provides you with the radar setup you are looking for.
I like this simm better. I'm just kicking around thoughts here. But if I ever do decide to leave. It won't be some goofy exit over some lame reason. I'd probably say bye to my squaddies and be gone. Like I said, I'm enjoying it here though, is it ok with you if I stay? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#12) Dot radar is like a WWII ground controller directing you to the enemy. "12 miles, vector 090, xxx bogies"
Back on realism huh, and a real guy giving you vectors with his real voice (or type) just aint the same huh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by Mr. T:
#13) Watch the history channel, you'll get the idea.
Thats where I got the idea.
Like I said, I'm not slamming the game, HT, Pyro, nothing like that. I think most people around here know me better than that. I'm just saying that I know it would be a more enjoyable simm for me, and many more, if the radar wasn't spoon fed to us.
I'm sure HTC have what they feel are very good reasons for this, it's their game, business, & livelihood. And if HT or pyro says that it aint changing, I won't be bitter about it. I'll probably just clam up and adapt.
The reason I refer to WB's so much is that it is the game i used to fly (that HT and pyro were responsible for) that had tower only radar, and it worked!
For every 1 person who flew WB's and didn't like their in-tower radar, I bet I can find 5 that liked it.
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Originally posted by Mr. T:
I never tell anyone what to do. I let them know what fields are in danger of capturing and tell them "well 27 is done for.."
That is an absolute complete baldface lie. Now I have you pegged. Thank you for clearing that up. You have never once uttered (typed) "well 27 is done for..." while flying for the same country as me. You constantly YELL(caps) at everyone ALL the time. When ya left Rooks a couple months ago, I silently cheered. Now your back and your worse if any different. Please auto squelch for us and our enjoyment of the game.
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Originally posted by Lizard3:
That is an absolute complete baldface lie. Now I have you pegged. Thank you for clearing that up. You have never once uttered (typed) "well 27 is done for..." while flying for the same country as me. You constantly YELL(caps) at everyone ALL the time. When ya left Rooks a couple months ago, I silently cheered. Now your back and your worse if any different. Please auto squelch for us and our enjoyment of the game.
You either have me mistaken for someone else or you are on some really nifty drugs that allow reality to be distorted to however you like. Either way, you are full of toejam up to your neck.. any further and you might drown in it.
I haven't said or told anyone to do anything in the past 5 days I've been a rook. Last night I said "Look at 11,11" then "look at 10,11" and said "Looks like a slowly moving HQ raid" someone confirmed it and that was that.
Now again, who have I told what to do? Do you have any proof (screenshots... film)... cuz if you don't then you mine as well go back to keeping your thumb in your ass. You do that much better than trying to falsly accuse me of doing something I'm not doing.
Your breath smells like toejam, you really should stop talking out of your ass.
-SW
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So again hblair, you want me to rely on my squad mates (who are usually not online when I am) or you want me to rely on "country mates" like this inept lizard3 character who wouldn't know his bellybutton from a hole in the ground with a sign saying "Your ass" affixed to it?
No thanks, I like the fact that I don't have to ask people where I should go when I'm in the air.
I said all along, bar radar in flight is fine... but whatever. You are just trying to make it more difficult.
How many maps or terrains have been included in the MA built by end users and reduced the number of fields? NONE! So you constantly bringing up "it can't be fixed via the terrain editor" is just as rediculous a statement as this inept fool lizard3 thinking I bark out orders and type in caps all of the time.
But if I ever do decide to leave. It won't be some goofy exit over some lame reason. I'd probably say bye to my squaddies and be gone.
As for that statement.. (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/mfinger/finger.gif)
How many people have quit over dumber reasons and come back? You don't jump on them for it, so kiss my ass. I atleast apologized, you wanna keep bringing it up? Fine, I'll just lump you, lazs and this lizard3 idiot into the same basket. I'll call you the Ambiguously handsomehunk Trio.
-SW
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Originally posted by Mr. T:
So again hblair, you want me to rely on my squad mates (who are usually not online when I am) or you want me to rely on "country mates" like this inept lizard3 character who wouldn't know his bellybutton from a hole in the ground with a sign saying "Your ass" affixed to it?
I don't want you to do anything really. But most people would check the radar when they roll, and maybe get updates from the tower if they needed them.
Originally posted by Mr. T:
No thanks, I like the fact that I don't have to ask people where I should go when I'm in the air
[/b]
I'm sure you do. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by Mr. T:
I said all along, bar radar in flight is fine... but whatever. You are just trying to make it more difficult.
There you go again. Putting words in other peoples mouths and thoughts in their heads. You're not my wife are you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) Doesn't that get boring?
Originally posted by Mr. T:
How many maps or terrains have been included in the MA built by end users and reduced the number of fields? NONE! So you constantly bringing up "it can't be fixed via the terrain editor" is just as rediculous a statement as this inept fool lizard3 thinking I bark out orders and type in caps all of the time.
There are a couple terrains being tested right now by the CM group. You'll see 'em soon. You can tell me how ridiculous a statement that was then. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Originally posted by Mr. T:
How many people have quit over dumber reasons and come back? You don't jump on them for it, so kiss my ass. I atleast apologized, you wanna keep bringing it up? Fine, I'll just lump you, lazs and this lizard3 idiot into the same basket. I'll call you the Ambiguously handsomehunk Trio.
-SW
I brought that up the other day, as a joke. This statement here wasn't even directed to you personally, but to all dorky quitters who post begrudgingly <sp?> about it. I actually wasn't thinking about your episode when I typed that out.
I'll give you some unsolicited advice, your posts can be on the combative side, and that ticks people off. You might not care, but if you ever meet some of these guys face to face at the con or wherever, you *might* be eating crow. You told liz this...
Your breath smells like toejam, you really should stop talking out of your ass.
Thats a little on the tasteless side, at best, isn't it? Lizard3 lives about 50 miles south of me, we met for lunch one day, and I'll tell you, he aint no small guy. I doubt very seriously you would tell him that to his face, unless you were ready to do some floor mopping, and he would have too much respect for you (you know, respect?) to say it you. Why can't we just disagree about stuff without becoming insulting?
Why is that so hard?
Well, I think I know why, cause when it's done on your 'puter, the word *consequences* doesn't come into play. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyways, you still haven't given me a decent reason yet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 05-05-2001).]
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Soooooo
Back on topic.
Yes scrap the inflight radar. In DOA we had dar in tower only and it worked great. IMO made things a whole lot more interesting and I would love to see it done here. At times with under 50 of us in the arena we had no problems finding a fight so ill just dismiss that argument.
Inflight radar is just a crutch for the SA impaired "yea that includes me"
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blair... hooli drove the healey and still has his drivers licence good SA.
People got "bounced" in WWII because of the mind numbing boredom not because they couldn't see the enemy. we don't want to duplicate that.
Now... lets just cut to the chase and use the one rule that is written in stone and is never wrong in any flight sim I have seen so far....
If the LW and/or buff guys want it... It is a very bad idea and bound to screw up the game for everyone else.
Think about it... Do any of you want the game to be as boring for you as it is for a LW or buff guy? Forget the fact that WB has a totally different field and field capture setup.. The RULE is what works here.
Still.... fix the fighter availability at the fields and it will change the nature of fights in the arena. More concentrations and more evenly divided concentrations of fighters. More action and a faster paced game. you probly wouldn't need in flight radar then.
lazs
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Originally posted by hblair:
Thats a little on the tasteless side, at best, isn't it? Lizard3 lives about 50 miles south of me, we met for lunch one day, and I'll tell you, he aint no small guy. I doubt very seriously you would tell him that to his face, unless you were ready to do some floor mopping, and he would have too much respect for you (you know, respect?) to say it you. Why can't we just disagree about stuff without becoming insulting?
The delemma revolves around the fact that AK-SW need people to order around and tell what to do. He's a power tripin mongoloid. You can tell when his squads not online as he yells instructions at anyone and everyone and I suspect gets himself squelched by his own countrymen on a regular basis. Arabian Knights Sea Wolfe, the reason you get no answers is cause NO ONE IS LISTENING TO YOU!
Ya weenus.
I don't suppose THIS could be the reason?
Trust me, he said that to me face to face and I'd knock his mouth off his face.
If you think I'm some computer dork that plays keyboard bully, you are sadly mistaken.
But your free to think whatever you want, I spar every weekend with my friends.. gloves or no gloves and have had my nose broken 4 seperate times, I'm not afraid to tell someone to diddly off when they have it coming.
-SW
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Originally posted by hblair:
Anyways, you still haven't given me a decent reason yet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
and vice versa, I haven't read a single decent reason to remove/change it.. Most of these consist of "it's a crutch".. interesting, but I have no time in a fight to check out the map for incoming fighters... I'm usually focusing on shooting them down.
-SW
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Ohhh, tuff guy, but to stupid to duck huh?
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Originally posted by Mr. T:
But your free to think whatever you want, I spar every weekend with my friends.. gloves or no gloves and have had my nose broken 4 seperate times, I'm not afraid to tell someone to diddly off when they have it coming.
-SW
Please stop it, your scareing the rest of the children.
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BTW i hardly ever fly buffs, dont spend a whole lot of time in LW iron. Remove inflight dar please.
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WOW! (puts credit card back in wallet) I see some things never change.
NUTTZ
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Well, at least this issue brings up the heat in here, no doubt!!
Quote:
For every 1 person who flew WB's and didn't like their in-tower radar, I bet I can find 5 that liked it.
Just for the record, I am one of those five that liked it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://www.lasse.as/twvl.gif)
The Wild Vikings
Commanding Officer
Lasse
[This message has been edited by lasse (edited 05-06-2001).]
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Wow. Seawulfe, How many times have you ever heard lizard3 post out of line spiteful stuff here, vs. how many times you have? Yep, you do seem to *try* hard to be an internet bully, but you usually self destruct. So you're a boxer?
But your free to think whatever you want, I spar every weekend with my friends.. gloves or no gloves and have had my nose broken 4 seperate times, I'm not afraid to tell someone to diddly off when they have it coming.
You spar with your pals with no gloves? Now why would you do that? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Getting your nose broken 4 seperate times might be somebody trying to tell ya something, no? Use headgear for sparring! if ya wanna go gloveless, that's what barfights are for! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Bah, you can be toughguy. You can have the last word, or take it to email, I shouldn't have rolled in the muck anyway.
Now lets try to get back on the subject, howzabout it?
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"These fighters are distributed over about 55 bases that are generally farther apart than in WB. What this all means is that fighter density is much less in AH than it was in WB: probably something like 1/4th or less. If AH had similar fighter density (i.e. 900 players in the current map, or a much smaller map with only 20 bases) it would no doubt be much easier to find fights.
Back to you original point: It was much less hard to find a fight in WB due to higher fighter density and different base closure rules. Of course the AH map could be condensed and that would change the situation, but the fact remains that the AH maps are larger and bases are more numerous and spread out than they were in WB."
Hooligan
I would agree with you, only that was some time ago with the old terrians.
The WB terrians are much larger now with more airfields. The most recent two (Med (http://www.fscwv.edu/users/rheffner/overlays/med.html) & PAC3?) that Iceman put together max out 2.77. They are very nice terrians (http://www.fscwv.edu/users/rheffner/overlays/wbmap.html) considering the old engines limits.
So 1/4 or less in size with a smaller fighter density I would have to disagree with. I don`t know the exact area distance between the two. But I do know that if I take off in a P-40 with it`s poor rate of climb, by the time I get to 18k I`m about 3/4 of the way to the closest airfield if that helps. (about 10 minutes)
No in-flight radar isn`t a problem.
........ really.
You plan out you fighter sweep before hand looking at the radar on the ground. Once airborne, you pretty much have an idea where your going & whats going on.
Plus, once airborne people are always calling out positions of enemy aircraft. All of your airfields display contacts above 300 feet within 20 miles. (that is if the enemy hasn`t taken out your radar tower)
And if you are looking for something specific, 99% of the time a person on the ground will give you the heading you need.
Once you do find them spotting them out you cockpit, it`s a nice feeling. And you have to keep a sharp SA 100% of the time. The only aircraft you see in flight at the ones you keep your eyeballs on outside your aircrafts glass in visual range.
It changes alot of things.
Say your arrive at 18k to a 4 on 4 fight. Now since you took off, during your trip there, you have no idea if the LW sent 5 more AC to the fight or none. Without in-flight radar, you could be finishing that fight as a winner, with 2 of you surviving, heading home at 2k, when all sudden... "3 109s AT 7 0`CLOCK HIGH!!!"
With in-flight radar, you would know they were coming all along. And without it you say to yourself... "oh sh*t!!!"
Or a fellow countryman on the ground might warn you....... "Rooks at 6.5.9.7, you have 3 dots at 6.5.x heading your way" so you know to get the hell out of there and grab some alt or RTB if damaged or low on fuel/ammo.
And guess what? There is a slight chance they could be BS`ing to one another and never see you. Or they are coming to get you because their ground radar man is directing their flight path to you.
Believe me, there is no problem finding the enemy.
As strange as this might sound, it`s almost as if you develop a feel when you know your close to the guys your looking for, even though it`s not a physical world.
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328th Fighter Squadron
352nd Fighter Group.com
Blue-Nosed Bastards of Bodney
[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 05-07-2001).]
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Thanks skybax, an objective post. Thats the way I remembered it there.
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Almost forgot:
"Seems I remember WB having a couple arrows, red and white. Red pointed you towards enemy concentrations. Does that still exist?"
Yes Dago, but worthless IMO.
White is for friendly & red for enemy.
Reason why they are worthless is, they point to the "largest concentration" of aircraft.
So...... that could be in Austria, while your all the way down in the Red Sea by Egypt!!!
And you could have 4 enemy aircraft just 20 miles north east of you, but the arrow is pointing north west to the ones in Austria.
Most people ignore the arrows, I do.
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Back from hollydays, It seems nothing's changed around here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Back on the dead-horse beating, please modify radar settings. The current ones are one of the worsk fun-killer in the game.
* No inflight dot radar.
* Modify sector counter behaviour. No cons shown under 300ft. AGL. No cons shown over enemy territory.
* As a gameplay concession, allow sector counters in-flight.
* Current dot radar settings for tower operation are OK for me.
It must be my 5th or 6th dollar on this subject (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Cheers,
Pepe
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Yes. Please, HiTech, reconsider your position on this one.
No dot dar inflight.
Show no bardar for NOE flights.
In fact, it wouldn't hurt my feelings if you eliminated radar altogether. But I realize that will never happen.
Just my 29.95/mo worth (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Kirin & I went on a high buff chase far into Rook territory in TA152's... after a while (not seeing high enemy buffs, we decided to go under the "cloudlayer/Borg_cube").
We were jumped by a Nikki and a 190 that had tracked our dots and were chasing us within the cloud layer... where our dots were pinpointng our positions quite effectively...
We shot the down promptly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
plz get rid of the DOTs, they bring nothing more to the Sim.
Cheers,
Saw
[Mass]
JG54's Underdweeboffizier
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 05-07-2001).]
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Please get rid of the inflight dots!!!
nuff said
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Pleas bring back the 2 for 2 Big Macs.
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I stayed out of this because I felt no reason to get involved in the flame fest. I still feel that way but I'd like to point out a couple of issues.
A few have posted that by "planning" the flight a player could get into a fight and have a good time without inflight or no dar at all.
Quite frankly that isn't true. Look at the numbers drop and stay down when a country loses dar, particularly for a protracted time. No dar gives the offensive team (the ones with numerical advantage, either locally or map wide) the ability to gang bang the teams without dar and or numbers. We have all seen the numerous posts griping about the gang bangs.
Second consideration. This game is about COMBAT, not true combat but repeatable and constant fighting that allows you to enjoy your time online. If players here didn't care about combat they would be quite happy playing MS flight Sim number whatever and flying a virtual airliner around by themselves. They could do that for free after paying the initial freight for the box. No need to pa $30.00 a month to be able to drone around looking at the scenery and fiddling with the buttons on the dash.
As for the ability to look at a tower display and find a fight with the certainty to get involved. I find that to be a ludicrous supposition. The only way that will work is if you enjoy getting to all your fights in a position of low alt. low E and no options. In other words, taking off from a capped field. As the game is set now it takes several minutes to climb to a fighting altitude in order to be able to meet the opposition on at least equal terms. In order to climb you need clear airspace so you can get your alt without losing all you ammo or plane parts in the process. Once you get to alt, you will need to fly to the scene of the previously spotted fight. This could take a few more minutes to fly at least one or more sectors. By this time the players who were fighting at that location are either low gas, ammo or looking at another location to fight. It has taken you about 10 to 20 minutes (depending on alt and sectors flown) to get to the fight. Given the altered fuel burn in the game that means yaks, spits and other planes with low fuel loads will be at fighting fuel loads just in time to go looking for someone to fight. By the time they chase down or locate an enemy they probably would be low fuel and have to decide to fight and lose the chance to RTB or just RTB period.
I am not one of the proponents of losing the dar. I generally do not log on if the dar is down and will not play if my team is being gang banged. I am here to play with at least an even chance of making a kill and continuing the flight. I do not like vulchfests and will not spend an evening trying to re-up in a capped field to avoid it's capture. I don not think I am in a significant minority.
Ask yourself if you would like to continue paying to be vulched. Ask yourself if you really like having to fly for long periods of time, almost to the limits of fuel loads just to get to a fight that might last only a few seconds. Then have the opportunity to repeat that process.
I doubt AH would get any new customers by having them play without a chance to be at parity with opposing players. No one would get past the 2 weeks free time. They would be long past enjoying being the underdog and cannon fodder for the experienced elite.
This game offers some nice options to players. The dar is one of them. If you don't want dar, all you have to do is not open your map board. Then you have no dar to offend you. If you want friendly only or no icons, you have that option. The same for tracers and or ordinance loads. You even have the choice of what team and aircraft to fly.
If you were a dedicated "realist" in this game you would join a country at random, fly a restricted plane set on missions you were ordered to fly and when you died, you would have to start all over again or stop playing. That is a realistic approach to a combat simulation. AH is not a sim, it is an online game that allows players to fly in combat against others on a 24 / 7 schedule with unlimited re-ups and an open plane set. Call it "quakelike" if you want but that is what it is all about. If you didn't have any options to choose from including flying YOUR favorite plane you would not be playing here.
Please think about that while you are trying to limit or deny others options in this game.
Now after seeing some of the "wonderful" bonding going on in previous posts I hope Pyro shuts this thread down. The name calling and vulgarity are out of hand again. If he doesn't than feel free to slam my post. I won't consider your slams as worthy of consideration, particularly those with the usual name calling and foul language.
Mav
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I read the whole thing...I can't believe I read the WHOLE THING!! Almost busted a gut too! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I agree..sh*tcan the 'dar, leave the bar. That way you'll know somethings there somewhere in a 25 by 25 mile square area, the rest is up to you.
Another thing, whilst reading this I finally figured out something thats been bothering me, you know, one of those things where your subconcious has it figured out but won't tell your concious mind what it is. I watched this SW yell in the arena quite often, giving commands and warnings, but it wasn't til I read this thread that I put it all together....ready? Here it comes....
AKSeaWulfe is really Gen Balo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Maverick:
I doubt AH would get any new customers by having them play without a chance to be at parity with opposing players. No one would get past the 2 weeks free time. They would be long past enjoying being the underdog and cannon fodder for the experienced elite.
Mav
Mav, not trying to sound smart, but you do realize that the opposite country will have the same situation as you?
As far as nobody would sign up to play, maybe HT and pyro have done some study on this, dunno.
But I do know this, Warbirds has had no in-plane for years. And ya know what? Up til about 6 months ago if you flew over 15hrs(?) a month, you paid $1.99 per hour. There were many, many people who spent $50 a month on this "inferior" setup. And there were many who spent upwards of $200 a month on this *unfair* setup.
As far losing customers, I dunno, but in this thread, here's what people think...
18 people favorable to no in-plane radar.
13 people in favor of modifying the current system in one way or another.
4 people in favor of leaving it alone.
Somebody recheck my count, but I think thats pretty close.
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A lot of time has been spent typing a lot of words here..
bottom line:
BAR-DAR will let you locate a fight.
DOT-DAR reduces fun for most pilots.
If you think NEED dot-dar, maybe you need to improve your SA and/or flying skills... I know I do.
[This message has been edited by Wlfgng (edited 05-07-2001).]
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A lot of time has been spent typing a lot of words here..
bottom line:
BAR-DAR will let you locate a fight.
DOT-DAR reduces fun for most pilots.
If you think NEED dot-dar, maybe you need to improve your SA and/or flying skills.
I can't help but get the feeling that those posting in this thread feel they represent the arena.
Most of the people that would be affected by dar changes the most don't even know this forum exists.
AKDejaVu
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AKDejaVu,
You are probably right about that.
What percentage of AH players frequent, or even use, these forums? 5%? 10%?
Only the most dedicated and geeky of us really use this board.
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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I am not sure what the propblem is with Radar in this sim. From what I have seen so far, radar is controlled by HQ, you bomb HQ radar goes down for a specified amount of time. If you really hurt HQ radar goes down for a longer period.
What IS problematic IMO is the lack of info being shared by others. What I just wrote above did occur recently in the MA. One guy in the sector south of HQ and 3 Buffs otw to bomb HQ. After several calls on the country channel no info. I was getting low on gas but I had a lot of alt in an A8 with rockets.
The countryman in HQ sector would not/did not provide any information on the location of the buffs. He shot one down, big whoop. But, the others dropped on HQ, knocked out Dar. Meanwhile, I ran out of fuel as I was 1.5 away from the buffs, and the only other friendly in the area was too low to be of any help.
IMO, radar is important but, cooperation is even more so. And if the lack of some kind of radar were to happen then the lack of cooperation would become critical.
As in all things communication and cooperation is key if one wants this sim to be more than a game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I raise a counter-motion all for say "I" all against say "NAY"
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Having dot dar in flight is rediiculous IMO
I would be happy, for now, if we had radar like we have now in the tower, and only bar radar in flight.
I would really like a more radical change, but as a temporary stopgap thatd make me happy.
BTW you guys all talk about how changing settings might prevent ppl from joining.Well what about those who have quit because of the current lack of anything approaching realism (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Lizard3:
That is an absolute complete baldface lie. You constantly YELL(caps) at everyone ALL the time.
I apologize -SW, you are neither a liar, nor do you yell all the time. My mistake. I was confusing you with Nimitz. Your still a....ah nm (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Liz
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Maverick your post is flawed from top to bottom.
Your first point tries to make a conclussion based on a flawed logic. You can not conclude that people will not join this sim because they log when one country loses Radar because of enemy action. These are different facts, and different reasons with no connection in between. Your second point illustrates it very well: It is not a case of advantage or disadvantage of one country, its a matter of settings for all trhee countries.
Your second point has valid points and flawed assumptions, again. AFAIK, this is a combat sim, as you well put. But you fail to define combat right. Combat is not only furball, 1vs1, or whatever. Combat is a whole set of measures, plans, isolated actions, etc. Players that do not care about combat do fly FS, but players that do may find your definition of Combat as too restrictive. This sim is, fortunately, quite a bit more than just air duelling.
The logic under your third point evades me completely. Can't think why no In-Flight radar would negate engagements but lo alt ones. Can't see how you deduct that only upping from a capped field would mean engagement. I've played WB and I can guarantee you that your point is not true or, at least, not connected with the issue of no In-Flight radar. Besides that, the word Interdiction takes a whole new dimension.
Your following point is your choices and opinions, so I won't comment.
Next, your doubt about new players. And you suggest that the setting would be too difficult for newbies to overcome. Flawed. In two senses, first parity does not reside on radar settings. In-Flight radar does not equal anything, actually it is unballancing because negates some evasion chances that could be well used by newbies. Second, learning curve is something that anyone aproacing this sim HAVE TO assume. Challenge and work are intrinsic to this kind of "serious" sims is the challenge. Not the point-click-boom sequence.
Next, options. Using your logic, I could tell you that you have other options as a player (CFS2, AW, Crimson Skies) instead of limiting my option to have a realistic sim, because there is no other like AH around, currently. But I wont. Instead of it, let me point that one thing is loadout, tracers, etc. options, that should be user-configurable as they represent the real options the pilot had to face, and another thing are the playfield options. Trying to put them all toghether is bogus. Besides that, radar does not offend anyone in particular. It rather annoys the majority around here (this BBS). It's not because of the radar itself (if it was the case, then your argument could be right) but because it severely limits (or plainly negates) the chance of some tactics involving brain usage and some of the funniest ways of flying (read NOE), without giving any valuable advantage (read gameplay as fun gameplay). Plus the feature is absolutely sci-fi by WWII standard.
Next point. There actually are some squads that fly that way in here, except, of course the part of stop playing, that I take as a license for dramathisation purposes. AH is a sim and a game, in my book. Do not know in what fields AH is not a sim...wait, yes, among a couple more, the radar issue falls right INTO the game field, and out of the sim field (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). Unfortunately, I quite concur with you in your quakelike sentence. The pity is that this might not be "what is all about", in the sense that this minor tuning things could open a bunch of new strategies, new ways in combatting, etc. without hampering very much others' options.
Let me use your penultimate sentence in all its significance. Think about it. Do not limit the options of this sim/game/sim. Modify radar behaviour and open up a new set of options to fight and play with.
Ah! and Pyro, please do not close this thread. I think it's not the most civilised one, but It's not that bad if you take the pain of reading it completely. And has VERY valid points, IMO.
Cheers,
Pepe, who is sorry about this tirade, and hope some of you are as bored in work as I do.
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And, I want to make the 100th. post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Pepe
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Not a stupid idea at all, in my opinion.
love to have dar only in the tower !
it makes u focuse in the flight all the time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
anb RW will be working hard (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) if u don`t have dar (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by hblair:
<snip>As far losing customers, I dunno, but in this thread, here's what people think...
18 people favorable to no in-plane radar.
13 people in favor of modifying the current system in one way or another.
4 people in favor of leaving it alone.
Somebody recheck my count, but I think thats pretty close.
And what about the 200 player who never read this board ? the silent majority ?
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The silent majority speaks every time they log onto warbirds without even caring about or mentioning no in-plane radar.
Why would it be so different here?
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I was not trying to bother you HB but more notice that you cannot count only the vote of the BBS poster as a part of the comunity (sp?) cannot/don't access the BBS.
Btw on this subject :
If there is inflight dar I will use it
If there is NO inflight dar I won't use it ...
That's my "I've no idea" contribution (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) to this thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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hehe, no problem straffo. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I see what you're gettimg at, but I don't think there would be such a huge difference in opinion between the guys who acces this forum and the guys who don't.
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fix the field capture first then we will talk about "in flight dar". last night there was no dar for the rooks. The guys who flew bombers and P51's loved it. everyone else hated it. I burned two tanks of fuel without a decent fight. The buffers and buddies liked it cause everyone was so bored and fearful of beimng gangbanged that they went on "missions" (gangbanging undefended or lightly defended fields).
And pepe... I know for a fact that people log off when there is no dar.
Get the fields fixed for longer fighter availability and it will in effect make the fields closer together 90% of the time and concentrate the fights.
lazs
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The buffers and buddies liked it cause everyone was so bored and fearful of being gangbanged that they went on "missions"
Huh? Radar was down because Knits had captured bases adjacent to it... and proceded to bomb the hell out of our city then it. Dar going down was a sobering experience for most who took it as an opportunity to make our dar less accessable. Very few missions... just people who didn't want to have this happen for the rest of the tour.
The only other option was to let the knits roll over the rooks and reset the arena. Maybe that would have been more fun for everyone lazs? Think a little more before spewing out the "M" word as if it were vulgar.
And pepe... I know for a fact that people log off when there is no dar.
One country rallied around loosing their dar and captured 6 bases with it down. Another country chose to log off when they lost their dar. It changes.
One thing is for sure though... there are people that will log off if dar is down. Not many on last night liked it when dar went down. People did what they had to do to make sure it didn't go down again.
What does that tell us about how MOST people view dar?
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by lazs:
fix the field capture first then we will talk about "in flight dar". last night there was no dar for the rooks. The guys who flew bombers and P51's loved it. everyone else hated it. I burned two tanks of fuel without a decent fight.
While you were flying in circles, burning your gas, your countrymen were taking your bases back for you, and had your radar back on by 9pm CST. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Originally posted by lazs:
And pepe... I know for a fact that people log off when there is no dar.
Yup, but that is because the other country HAS radar! There's a difference there. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by lazs:
Get the fields fixed for longer fighter availability and it will in effect make the fields closer together 90% of the time and concentrate the fights.
lazs
Next time your online lazs, type .join hblair, press enter, and I'll show ya how to find a fight. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
What does that tell us about how MOST people view dar?
AKDejaVu
It tells us that most people realize the strategical importance of radar in the current setup. If the other countries have radar available, and you don't, you are at an obvious disadvantage, most people realize this.
It does not, however, tell us whether the majority of the players in the main arena would prefer in-flight radar available as an option in the game or not.
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lazs,
Originally posted by lazs:
...
And pepe... I know for a fact that people log off when there is no dar.
...
Not that hblair (thks, hblair) hasn't explained it to you again perfectly, just to state that I do not deny that fact. What I point is the flawed logic after the assumption that this behaviour can be extrapolated to no In-Flight radar -> less players in the terms brought about by Maverick
On your next paragraph, you hit the same stone time after time. You seem to think that everyone would fit into your total-furball-madness arena. I definitely won't. I do not want a reduced arena with invulnerable arfields with ethernal and omnscient radar. In fact I want to have the option to use more flying styles into this sim/game. I would love to fly with my squad a NOE mission in some cannon armed B-25's (A-26 would do, for the sake of it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)), and capture a field deep into enemy's land, before they even realized what's going on. Probably our side would suffer from that too. This is something only a software-tweak away and I fail to see the downside of it as severe and hampering in terms of gameplay for the average player as Mav (or you) present.
I am all to open new facets in gameplay, not restricting it. More variety is what I think improves the game experience, not the opposite.
I understand that my ideas are not bread & butter for the whole Arena, and thus, I try presenting them as my personal points of view and staying away from "thats what this game needs" type of sentences and talking as if everyone else agrees with them. I think you shoud try to present your ideas the same way.
Cheers,
Pepe
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I'm glad im an assasin, with the smartest guys in the community in my squad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Pepe makes some damned good points too.
Lazs, you will still be able to find the fightxs, since you will have radar in the tower. Its teh lack of being able to auto vector onto dots while in flight thats kinda redic.
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Hmmm Well I'm not as bright as alot of you guys. I fly for the fun of it. I like action. I've been on for hours at a time and not realized where the time has gone. I get a kick out of saving a field by knocking off the troops of a well planned attack and foiling the enemy. This dar system isn't perfect, but it works pretty well. I've notice that the dar is up sometimes and down others. Heck I didn't even know you could knock out a fields radar. I am one of the guys you elite pilots need. A target. hehe I am happier knowing where guys are so I can get over there and get a fight going. I don't want to spend all night looking. There is so much negative feed back I thought I put my 2 cents in. Dar or no Dar I hope to see you flyin.
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lazs,
If you could not find fights (do not know wether they would fit your decency standards (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) was, above all, because you did not want to. I was flying rook (as usual) yesterday, and I would like to state that:
- Losing radar was mostly Rookland's fault. Apart from Knitland skills, we were roughly equal numbers, but a number of us decided It was more rewarding staying at A1/A8 furball. Nothing to object to that, but you have to admit that we have had PLENTY of time to counter Knitland's moves (S! for them, was a very nice rush).
- Having no radar was not boring or fearful for all of us, or the rest of us not flying buff or pony. At least it was not for me. In fact was amazing when two of us (Borete & me) were patrolling over A28 just in case Knits wanted to take it, and seeing not less than 5 Rooks respond to a Scramble petition on seeing 5 unidentified dots that resulted on a Lancaster and a group or 109 and 190 approaching the field. Quite intense fight there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
- Until TG 53 is sunk, there was a big battle over P33 & A22. Publicly announced on Ch2, for your (and others) furballing pleasure.
- All the time we were with no radar, was easy to see the progressive destruction of our premises, so not so difficult to figure out where the buffs were to be destroyed.
- The thing that you fail to see is that the actual radar/counter bar settings negate us some defense possibilities, as it would be a surprise sneak attack to their City & HQ (flying NOE B-26 or hvy fighters), and having hardened radar would not save us from being crushed, as we rather liked to split our forces in two fronts, instead of countering the bigger threat, even with full knowledge of what was going on (Continuous help requests on Ch2).
All in all, yesterday's atmosphere could be defined, in my oppinion, as tense and frustrating, because of both uncertainty and lack of proper attitude to counter a well executed attack. But tension and frustration lie on the opposite corner to boredom. I would bet that most of yesterday night logs were made on frustration, not on boredom.
I hope Rookland do not forget so fast our turn in the southern corner, permanently gangbanged (of course, no radar at all) and next time we pay attention to the important things. If so, I would better try to get used to flying blind (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
All in all, I would not define yesterday situation as a "target poor" environment.
Cheers,
Pepe.
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
Lazs, you will still be able to find the fightxs, since you will have radar in the tower. Its teh lack of being able to auto vector onto dots while in flight thats kinda redic.
That's the weakest argument for getting rid of it.
The difference from someone vectoring you to the fight and you vectoring yourself is that you don't have to sit there typing four hundred lines of text to figure out where you are going.
You want to kill people with their heads in their keyboards?
Phew, that's weak.
-SW
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bakerm,
The real pity of the situation is that most (correct me if I'm wrong) of the supporters of the current settings had not tried other options, still they do not want to give it even a try. And I can assure you It was really fun, at least with WB settings. The radar controller was an appreciated task, and quite fun too. And the vectoring process, very intense, on both ends. Besides the vectoring, you could effectively plan a stealth flying route, avoiding radar stations, and that was fun too, etc.
Bear in mind that we are not talking about getting rid of radar completely, just disabling it In-Flight (with some really interesting ideas, as the PBY radar/spotter plane), and readjusting the counter bars.
Hehehe, as for the target matter, all of us are one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cheers,
Pepe.
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Mr. T,
Have you ever been vectored?
Cheers,
Pepe
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Originally posted by Mr. T:
The difference from someone vectoring you to the fight and you vectoring yourself is that you don't have to sit there typing four hundred lines of text to figure out where you are going.
You want to kill people with their heads in their keyboards?
Phew, that's weak.
-SW
SW: Hi guys, wheres the fight?
teamate#1: furball at 10,7,6
teamate#2: 3 lancs inbound A11 form south, need help
Thats the kinda stuff you'd see. Notice, you don't know exactly where the cons are, but you have a good idea, and you got the info from your countrymen, not some code.
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 05-09-2001).]
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Originally posted by hblair:
SW: Hi guys, wheres the fight?
teamate#1: furball at 10,7,6
teamate#2: 3 lancs inbound A11 form south, need help
Mmmmkay...
Lets put this more into perspective...
Person just logging in: Hey guys what's going on at field xx?
...
...
...
...
...
...
Person just logged in, been here for 3 minutes: Hello?
Person that just logged in thinks to himself "To hell with this" and goes out on his own.
I see this happen regularly, not just to me either.
And you want to take away in flight bar radar?
Really... if you think I'm bad on open comms right now... you'll find out how irrate I can really become when no one wants to clue me in as to where I am going and what I'm going to run into.
-SW
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sigh...
Bar dar will get you to the fight Mr T.
what more do ya need ?
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And that's what I've been saying all along. We need at the very least in flight bar radar. You can look a few posts up by me and see where I stated that.
bar radar works well for me, those nice little arrows in WB1.xx were enough so bar radar is enough for me... but if I got no form of radar so I can *DIRECT MYSELF* to a fight. Then ferget it.
-SW
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Originally posted by Mr. T:
Mmmmkay...
Lets put this more into perspective...
Person just logging in: Hey guys what's going on at field xx?
...
...
...
...
...
...
Person just logged in, been here for 3 minutes: Hello?
Person that just logged in thinks to himself "To hell with this" and goes out on his own.
Person just logged in? <click, click> Looks at radar, sees where he wants to go, Takes off.
Originally posted by Mr. T:
Really... if you think I'm bad on open comms right now... you'll find out how irrate I can really become when no one wants to clue me in as to where I am going and what I'm going to run into.
-SW
I never notice you on the radio much in the arena, just here on the BBS. If you get real bad on open comms, I guess most people will just squelch you?
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I was using that just logged in thing as an example as it is CURRENTLY. CURRENTLY when you log in and SEE a large green bar in a sector you will ASK what's going on there and if they need help.
No replies.
As it is right now, I have a hard enough time trying to find out what a particular field needs that's under heavy CAP... you think that will change when you enforce this "tower only" radar? Nope.
When I'm 10 minutes into a flight and find out my intended destination has nothing but, to uses lazs' example, ground vehicles and need a new vector... and I get no response as to where the fight has moved or anything you want me to spend another 10 minutes going back to land just to look at radar again because my "country mates" don't FEEL like telling me anything?
All of the arguments for doing just in tower radar are some of the weakest points.. don't bother to think about the guys that don't want to up in some feeble Luftwaffe plane to get up to 30K then patrol around for an hour just to bounce one unlucky newbie.
yeah man, that sounds like fun.... Hey wait I thought this game was about air COMBAT....
-SW
ps: 90people in the arena.. MOSTLY pilots.. 0 people in the arena are ground controllers... THAT's what the radar is... GROUND CONTROLLERS.. no one pays 30$/mo to sit in the tower and tell you where to go.
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The real pity of the situation is that most (correct me if I'm wrong) of the supporters of the current settings had not tried other options, still they do not want to give it even a try.
A truly flawed assumption. Those arguing against it have just as much experience as those arguing for it.
It does not, however, tell us whether the majority of the players in the main arena would prefer in-flight radar available as an option in the game or not.
Majority or not isn't really the issue. Its how many would leave.. what kind of an impact it would have. Do you really know? How would it impact you? How would it impact HTC? How appealing would this be to new customers?
If the other countries have radar available, and you don't, you are at an obvious disadvantage, most people realize this.
I have not seen this be a factor for people who have lost dar. The key point is that they don't have dar and don't know what's coming. I can't say I've ever heard "But they can see us and we can't see them!" when our dar went down. Fairness is not the issue. Its just that people realize how important dar is to them AFTER they loose it... seldomely before. This thread seems to ignore that to the Nth degree.
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To be honest, I fail to see the need for the changes. What is it about the current setup that is made virtually impossible due to in-flight dar? Is it that an enemy can see you in clouds when he shouldn't be able to? Is it that an enemy can see you aproaching his base when he shouldn't be able to? What?
We don't have patrols at altitude to intecept aircraft. Nobody wants to spend hours flying "just in case". We only have a system that gives you an indication something is coming, and one that tells you something is there. That is all. Anyone with 15k of alt is not affected by dot dar early warning. Dot dar can also be shut off with 1 bomb.
The sector bars are another issue and I feel there is room for adjustment. I believe HTC has already said they'd be willing to evaluate some kind of minimum altitude bar-dar indication. This would make things just a tad more compliant to NOE flying. I also think something should be done in regards to way behind enemy lines bar-dar... but this thread is about elimination.. not modification.
If you think having dar in the tower would be sufficient... think about how many times (even with dar available everywhere) you hear people calling out a base being under attack... I'm not talking 20 people coming in... I'm talking 1 buff over it precision bombing all the ack. I seldomely hear this at all. I spent 3 hours last night defending against this very tactic.. with minimal (never more than 2 other pilots) helping as no knits hit as many as 4 or 5 bases at a time from an island base... no more than 1 pilot at any base.
Another downside to this is that it encourages someone to stay in the tower. This is a bad thing in my oppinion as pilots should be motivated to get into the air/vehicles... not sit in the tower looking at the map.
The suggestion just doesn't seem very well thought out.
AKDejaVu
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Deja,
I made the statement because I did not see any old Warbirder that I know defending the current setup. I have no evidence (thus the correct me if I am wrong sentence) in any sense. I will stand corrected if that evidence shows.
On the radar issue, let's define Sector counters on one side, and Dot Radar on the other.
On Sector Counters, since Htc. has taken a point at this, I will wait to see the changes made.
Dot Radar: The need not only arises from the two points that you bring. These are fine examples of reasons why you should get rid of them, but there are others, for instance, it is sci-fi by WWII standards (admitted weak point) and gives you artificial SA, and allows you to locate and figure out effortlessly what are the fight conditions (number and proximity of friendlies and enemas) around you. In fact, it's got even continuous range adjustment. IMO, SA is easy enough with the current icon implementation.
You point something interesting when you mention the lack of help when a base is under attack. If this is the way, I can't see how the lack of in-flight radar woud worsen this.
Your last point is shortsighted. You have to think in the tower as another vehicle. Its waeapon would be the radar. So sitting in the tower looking at the radar would be like manning the big guns on the CC, altho big guns are less effective (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Heheheh, I won't use my last sentence like you do, so....Cheers, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Pepe.
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How about we try it and see? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Then the 2 or 3 of you can tell the rest of us how wrong we all are and the fact that it works in WB's and DOA is a fluke (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I think some sort of HA is in the works and that will be the place to try this out. I think that you can add to many changes at once and really muck up the works. This would be a BIG change and with all the new things (with a bug or three)on the way it may be to much. We are still a growing community and need to keep the majorty happy (most do not read the boards)as HT gets numbers when the numbers get larger and we get other areinas we will see more game play changes.
I can go both ways on this issue but am woried by to many changes at the same time.
Just my $.02
tail winds all
Scoot out
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Originally posted by rosco-:
How about we try it and see? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Then the 2 or 3 of you can tell the rest of us how wrong we all are and the fact that it works in WB's and DOA is a fluke (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hmmmmm it works there you say?
Well I guess that shuts me up.....
but wait! Go see how many fields per country there are, and fly between each field and figure out the distances in WB and DOA. Then compare that against the size of the AH map.
Then we'll be gettin' somewhere...
I hear you coming hblair "but the terrain editor"... but lets do it against terrains that are ALREADY in the rotation and are the ONLY ones being used.
-SW
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Originally posted by Mr. T:
As it is right now, I have a hard enough time trying to find out what a particular field needs that's under heavy CAP... you think that will change when you enforce this "tower only" radar? Nope.
How would any change in radar coverage affect figuring out what targets at a field need bombing? You do know about the strat button?
Originally posted by Mr. T:
When I'm 10 minutes into a flight and find out my intended destination has nothing but, to uses lazs' example, ground vehicles and need a new vector... and I get no response as to where the fight has moved or anything you want me to spend another 10 minutes going back to land just to look at radar again because my "country mates" don't FEEL like telling me anything?
Why wouldn't your countrymen tell you anything? I'm usually on US nights, I'll give you vectors ol buddy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by Mr. T:
yeah man, that sounds like fun.... Hey wait I thought this game was about air COMBAT....
-SW.[/B]
Do you mean air combat as in a Real air combat simulation? If so, you just made a good arguement for no radar in-flight. Thanks. You ever read any WWII air combat books? If so, then you know that most WWII fighter pilots were shot down by planes they did not see. Even with the icons the way they are, if the radar wasn't so easy, we could simulate this style of combat. You would actually have to look back and check your six, intsead of get an AWACS report by pressing esc.
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 05-09-2001).]
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"but wait! Go see how many fields per country there are, and fly between each field and figure out the distances in WB and DOA. Then compare that against the size of the AH map.
Then we'll be gettin' somewhere..."
That was already addressed eariler in the thread.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
I have not seen this be a factor for people who have lost dar. The key point is that they don't have dar and don't know what's coming. I can't say I've ever heard "But they can see us and we can't see them!" when our dar went down. Fairness is not the issue. Its just that people realize how important dar is to them AFTER they loose it... seldomely before. This thread seems to ignore that to the Nth degree.
Deja, Thats like giving one side P51 Mustangs and the other side ME109f4, and when the side with the 109f4's start logging off, we all declare "Nobody likes 109F4's, there's the proof, The side with the 109's are logging off." Ignoring the fact that they are at a disadvantage and know it. Come on man.
If having radar is the default setting in the arena, and your country loses it, knowing the other side has it, that has no affect on their attitudes?
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
We don't have patrols at altitude to intecept aircraft. Nobody wants to spend hours flying "just in case". We only have a system that gives you an indication something is coming, and one that tells you something is there. That is all. Anyone with 15k of alt is not affected by dot dar early warning. Dot dar can also be shut off with 1 bomb.
Yeah, and anybody who knows diddly squat about the game knows that puts out a big column of smoke. You do know there are guys who jump around the towers checking stuff like that? They see their dar smoking, they roll ostwinds, simple as that. And even if their dar is down, the sector bars work no matter your altitude.
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
The sector bars are another issue and I feel there is room for adjustment. I believe HTC has already said they'd be willing to evaluate some kind of minimum altitude bar-dar indication. This would make things just a tad more compliant to NOE flying. I also think something should be done in regards to way behind enemy lines bar-dar... but this thread is about elimination.. not modification.
If I had the choice between staying the same and modification, I'd take some kinda modification.
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
If you think having dar in the tower would be sufficient... think about how many times (even with dar available everywhere) you hear people calling out a base being under attack... I'm not talking 20 people coming in... I'm talking 1 buff over it precision bombing all the ack. I seldomely hear this at all. I spent 3 hours last night defending against this very tactic.. with minimal (never more than 2 other pilots) helping as no knits hit as many as 4 or 5 bases at a time from an island base... no more than 1 pilot at any base.
Another downside to this is that it encourages someone to stay in the tower. This is a bad thing in my oppinion as pilots should be motivated to get into the air/vehicles... not sit in the tower looking at the map.
The suggestion just doesn't seem very well thought out.
I think HT and pyro did a great job thinking it out in WB's. It works there. I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguement, I actually spent 2 years over there. I've seen it. It worked. Most people who used it liked it. Read the responses here.
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hblair:
This "follow me I can always find a good fight" stuff is not very persuasive. On a decent night in WB I could shoot down 10 or 15 enemy AC with no sweat. Finding targets was not typically a problem.
Last night I got about 4 kills and RTB'd 3 times because I was bingo fuel after starting with full fuel and finding no fights. You are essentially telling us to trust you in preference to our own senses and experience.
Taking inflight DAR away will only increase the boredom that currently aflicts the AH arenas.
Hooligan
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sheesh... first some guys tell me I'm full of it and then spend two or three posts proving my point.
hblair... you don't get any more kills per hour than i do on average yet you consider it easy to find a decent (fairly large and fairly even) fite and i consider it near impossible at times. different strokes i guess but i bet there are as many of my opinion as there are of yours.
I don't know how many would leave if dar were shut down. I know some log off. I have never heard anyone say they were logging because the dar came back up!
blair... we are tying to simulate air combat IMO. not the hours or months or whatever it takes to get into air combat. This game is about fun not about simulating the boring part. You wouldn't even read a book on air combat if 99% of it were about the noise the engine made and 1% of it was describing a fite.
deja... "mission"? most of what I seen was huge forces hitting a base and wiping out it's ability to defend itself allmost immediately. this may be the "smart" thing to do but it is in no way fun for me and others. If this is a "mission" then yes, it is the "M" word IMO... I heard people bragging about taking down fighter hangers at undefended fields. I actualy like it when we or the other side is down to fewer fields because it concentrates the fite. I couldn't care even a tiny bit who "wins" the war. I care who wins the engagement and how intense it was. the bigger and fairer the better. Gangbanging is a distant second and being gangbanged falls far behind second.
I would also say that most people hate to engage buffs and would much rather have a real fite. I think seeing a lone buff laser bombing a couple of buildings and putting an end to a dozen guys efforts and fun is an embarassment. I would go a step further. The buffs in the game are an embarassment and anything besides ignoring them or shooting their chutes is simply encouraging em. That would include the "m" word.
lazs
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Originally posted by Hooligan:
hblair:
This "follow me I can always find a good fight" stuff is not very persuasive. On a decent night in WB I could shoot down 10 or 15 enemy AC with no sweat. Finding targets was not typically a problem.
Last night I got about 4 kills and RTB'd 3 times because I was bingo fuel after starting with full fuel and finding no fights. You are essentially telling us to trust you in preference to our own senses and experience.
Taking inflight DAR away will only increase the boredom that currently aflicts the AH arenas.
Hooligan
I was on last night trying to take fields, flew some bomber sorties and attack sorties, fighters were all over me. What planet are you guys from?
Open your clipboard, fly to the red. Got it? How hard can it be? I noticed drex with an 8 kill sortie, is he not in your squad? Get some tips from him I guess. Apparently he's got it figured out.
This old tired "There's no fights here!" when there's red all around is more than a little far fetched.
You and lazs are the only two I ever hear that from. Why is that?
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sigh....
I think we all know where we stand by now.
Let's just hope AH gives it a shot and lets the users (including those that don't post here) try it out.
inflight bar-dar only...
dot-dar only in tower.
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Originally posted by lazs:
sheesh... first some guys tell me I'm full of it and then spend two or three posts proving my point.
hblair... you don't get any more kills per hour than i do on average yet you consider it easy to find a decent (fairly large and fairly even) fite and i consider it near impossible at times
And most of my field attack sorties are scored as fighter sorties, skewing that stat big time. Finding a fight on US evenings is laughably easy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by lazs:
I don't know how many would leave if dar were shut down. I know some log off. I have never heard anyone say they were logging because the dar came back up!
Read my reply to deja above.
While we're on the subject, how many never came to this game because of the radar?
Gimme that stat.
Originally posted by lazs:
blair... we are tying to simulate air combat IMO.
Did Air combat start out with 2 planes knowing exactly where each other was before they ever saw each other? Or did they stumble upon each other?
You aren't trying to simulate jack squat, except what's easy for lazs. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Originally posted by lazs:
deja... "mission"? most of what I seen was huge forces hitting a base and wiping out it's ability to defend itself allmost immediately. this may be the "smart" thing to do but it is in no way fun for me and others. If this is a "mission" then yes, it is the "M" word IMO... I heard people bragging about taking down fighter hangers at undefended fields. I actualy like it when we or the other side is down to fewer fields because it concentrates the fite. I couldn't care even a tiny bit who "wins" the war. I care who wins the engagement and how intense it was. the bigger and fairer the better. Gangbanging is a distant second and being gangbanged falls far behind second.
I would also say that most people hate to engage buffs and would much rather have a real fite. I think seeing a lone buff laser bombing a couple of buildings and putting an end to a dozen guys efforts and fun is an embarassment. I would go a step further. The buffs in the game are an embarassment and anything besides ignoring them or shooting their chutes is simply encouraging em. That would include the "m" word.
lazs
This troll part was funny, but tell hooligan you're kidding please.
<g,d,r> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Originally posted by Wlfgng:
sigh....
I think we all know where we stand by now.
Let's just hope AH gives it a shot and lets the users (including those that don't post here) try it out.
inflight bar-dar only...
dot-dar only in tower.
Wlfgng is my squaddie. I disagree with him on the radar, and would rather have no radar, including bar dar, in the air. But ya know what? just because we're squaddies doesn't mean we have to agree with each other all the time on everything. We can agree to disagree. No biggie. No occult going on here in The Assassins.
<joking> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I think HT and pyro did a great job thinking it out in WB's. It works there. I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguement, I actually spent 2 years over there. I've seen it. It worked. Most people who used it liked it. Read the responses here.
Wow.. you played Warbirds for two years too? Guess what.. that is not unusual for anyone posting on either side of the argument. Warbirds got some $3000-$4000 of my hard earned dollars.
Trying to compare the two is where you are a little off. The games really aren't similar enough to assume that one radar system would work more/less better in the other game.
BTW.. ever wonder why Pyro and HT changed the dar setup?
AKDejaVu
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"And most of my field attack sorties are scored as fighter sorties, skewing that stat big
time. Finding a fight on US evenings is laughably easy. "
Huh? a sortie is a sortie. first you say that "fighters were all over you" and now you appear to be saying that field attack sorties are so boring that they 'skew' your stats. So You want me to do field attacks with you??? Even taking that into account you are spending 25% more time flying around doing nothing than I am, you are still saying that you are finding plenty of fights? Like I said... different strokes.
point is... i get more action than you and i find the level very low while you find it intense. The people i talk to and fly with feel the same as me while those you talk to agree with you. I feel that even with the best dar in the world it is hard to get a good fite as it changes in the 10 minutes or so that it takes you to get there.
It's maybe not the dar so much tho as it is the fighter availability. you quoted me out of context on this game being about air combat... you left out the part that the game shouldn't be about the boring crap leading uyp to air combat or at least... it shouldn't have too much of that stuff. but....
anyone who wants to tell me I don't know what I am doing and that i just don't know how to find a fite had better have AT LEAST as good a kill per time as me. You can't tell someone they are having a good time when they are not.
lazs
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THAT's IT HB... I'VE HAD IT!!!!!!
(throws off his hockey gloves)
hehe.. kidding (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Acutally, I agree to disagree...
the diff here is that we do it civilly .
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
BTW.. ever wonder why Pyro and HT changed the dar setup?
AKDejaVu
Many times. You gonna let me in on it?
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Originally posted by lazs:
"And most of my field attack sorties are scored as fighter sorties, skewing that stat big time. Finding a fight on US evenings is laughably easy. "
Huh? a sortie is a sortie. first you say that "fighters were all over you" and now you appear to be saying that field attack sorties are so boring that they 'skew' your stats. So You want me to do field attacks with you???
You missed my point. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Many of my sorties are "attack" sorties that I don't go through the trouble of clicking on the "attack" button in the hangar, to have them scored as "attack" sorties. On these sorties I purposely avoid enemy fighters because I'm trying to bomb stuff at their field. This makes my fighter score worse than it oughta be.
Originally posted by lazs:
It's maybe not the dar so much tho as it is the fighter availability. you quoted me out of context on this game being about air combat... you left out the part that the game shouldn't be about the boring crap leading uyp to air combat or at least... it shouldn't have too much of that stuff. but....
Don't take this too serious man. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) No ill will intended by me. We just disagree on some things in the game is all. If we met in real life, I'd be the first to shake your hand. That goes to all you guys. hblair is just doing a little debating here. Doesn't mean I won't do my best to clear your 6 in the game. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by hblair:
...Thats like giving one side P51 Mustangs and the other side ME109f4, and when the side with the 109f4's start logging off, we all declare "Nobody likes 109F4's, there's the proof...
But I like the 109F4...it is becoming one of my favorite "time to re-build the perk supply" rides.
Seriously, though, as far as radar in the MA goes, I see no problem with having the bardar at all time whether or not you are in flight. Sometimes people in some countries (insert Bishops here) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) dont like to give status reports on the condition of some bases. Having dot radar visible in the tower only and bardar visible at all times seems like an ok compromise to me. As it is now you dont see the dots all the time especially if you are flying in enemy territory.
Assassins seem to still be sore over us ransacking their attempt to capture a Knit field last week.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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i agree with wlfgang
i think the best solution is dot radar in tower, bar radar in flight
having the bar in flight isnt a big problem IMO if it was modified so the bar doesnt show if under a couple hundred feet NOE
so teh changes would be:
1) no dot dar in flight, only bars
2) no bar dar if under 300 ft (or some other number)
i tend to think that eliminating radar*altogether* isnt the best idea, but certainly think that having precise dots of location on enemy contacts, in flight, is bad for the game.
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Rather long thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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That's exactly our point Zigrat. That simple mod, that would allow finding fights, sneak & capture, eliminate artificial SA, and would please (and this is only my opinion) the great majority of players. And please do not tell me I can't speak for them. I am not doing it. It is my opinion, and, if this BBS would make a valid extraction of the whole AH population, the stats would prove this point.
Why can be this proposal have its chance? let's say a 15 days/one tour try, and restate situation? If Htc. made the price experiment, I guess they can do the radar one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Cheers,
Pepe (only one eye open, after 2hours fixing windoze).
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Well hblair:
I believe drex agrees with me on this one. At least he seems to when we talk on RW, although perhaps he is just afraid to disagree with me (I might get mad and steal all of his kills after all). Maybe we should share RW between our squads again some time soon. I am certain he would be happy to share his opinion on this subject if you asked.
As far as last night: We were not on at the same time, it sure sounds like things were better when he was on than when I was on.
Hooligan
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Not only that stumblebum drex but everyone in the squad and everyone we have ever talked to. Yeah... better hblair should join our RW than we join up on his "missions" unless he wants to hear a half dozen or so guys sayin "that's it I'm outta here... gotta clean the oven"
lazs
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Lazs, weak jabo pilots are a dime a dozen. I prefer guys who can put their eggs on target, like, well, drex. He's a good jabo pilot, especially in a 190.
Oh yeah, you guys didn't know that though, did ya?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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This post would have been in German had it not been for the BRDF (later known as radar) which was absolutely crucial for the RAF in 40. They would have los BoB without it. Having said that, I feel radar should remain but preferably not in the form it is now. Historical RDF could tell range, bearing and altitude of cons but wasn't allways too precise; pilots most often flew a few k's higher, just in case. Further, it took from a 'blip' first showed up on an RDR screen until a sqn was ordered to scramble, excactly 6 minutes. Therefore, I vote for the Bar, which I feel first of all would be a good simulation and secondly maintain the fun as opposed to no radar at all, which I agree could be damaging to gameplay.
And the earlier statement:
"Trust me, he said that to me face to face and I'd knock his mouth off his face.
If you think I'm some computer dork that plays keyboard bully, you are sadly mistaken.
But your free to think whatever you want, I spar every weekend with my friends.. gloves or no gloves and have had my nose broken 4 seperate times, I'm not afraid to tell someone to diddly off when they have it coming."
must be the most unsympathetic and demented to date in this BB. You can't make a silk purse of a sou's ear! (but might be shocked looking at it, having no bones left in it's face).
(http://null.dk/~ssl/483/wolfskin.gif)