Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKcurly on March 03, 2003, 04:17:46 AM
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Ok, web research shows that near misses with a 1k bomb would not kill a tiger (in real life.) OTOH, strings of bombs will kill one.
So will an M8. :) From
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/5096/upgtiger.htm
The ability to destroy a Tiger I from other than the front is described in a wartime report from the 7th Armored Division while in Belgium in December of 1944:
While northern and eastern flanks had been heavily engaged, the northeastern section had been rather quiet. The only excitement there had been was when an M8 armored car from "E" Troop destroyed a Tiger tank. The armored car had been in a concealed position at right angles to run along a trail in front of the MLR. As the tank passed the armored car, the M8 slipped out of position and started up the trail behind the Tiger, accelerating in an attempt to close. At the same moment the German tank commander saw the M8, and started traversing his gun to bear on the armored car. It was a race between the Americans who were attempting to close so that their puny 37-mm would be effective in the Tiger’s "Achilles heel" (its thin rear armor), and the Germans who were desperately striving to bring their "88" to bear … Suddenly, the M8 had closed to 25 yards, and quickly pumped in 3 rounds… the lumbering Tiger stopped, shuddered; there was a muffled explosion, followed by flames which bellowed out of the turret and engine ports, after which the armored car returned to its position.
curly
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Near misses from 1k bombs would put Tiger's on their backs in real life. Check out the damage done to tanks after the pre-D-Day carpet bombing of the Normandy area.
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Just need to deceive your enemy into tree "smacking."
It seems to work for my enemies when I am in a Tiger. :D
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Obviously.... hit a tree or a white stone :D
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slamming a tree is a squad special feature (at least for my squad :))
btw ready to wing again with you pepe ;) (beware of killshooter :D)
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Even at 25m, with a 37L53, they were lucky to get a 'catastrophic kill' on a Pz VIE.
Pz V, Pz VIE, Pz VIB were all very sturdily made, had good ammo/fuel storage (from a safety standpoint), and good fire extinguishing systems.
Get a copy of the book 'Panzer Battles of the Waffen-SS'. It's basically a large # of platoon and company AARs from Waffen-SS Panzer units.
The number of times those AFVs 'caught fire' in the engine compartment...crew bailed out...and reentered vehicle to continue fighting once the extinguishers had done their job - it was a surpisingly common occurance (and goes a long way to explaining 'claimed destruction of enemy MBT' by Allied ground attack types - smoke from the MBT, crew bails out...must be a kill - totally reasonable assumption if you think about it).
The main cause of 'catastrophic kills' vs. AFV was fuel fire detonating ammunition. The bigger and faster the round the better chance of this in general, and some MBTs (pre-'44 Shermans are a glaring example) had very poorly protected fuel and ammunition, causing them to catch fire and (eventually)/or explode even vs. 'non-extreme' penetrations.
It sounds like they hit that Pz VIE from so close that the penetrating rounds had enough power left to actually start a fuel fire. I don't think the MA ammunition exploded though - that would have taken the turret off most likely (88mm charges are pretty 'explosive').
Mike/wulfie
p.s. 'catastrophic kill' = total destruction of AFV and all crew.
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Originally posted by Pepe
Obviously.... hit a tree or a white stone :D
LOL...either that or it ran over some scrap of debris from a blown up building or hanger. :rolleyes:
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Put a round through the drivers view slit.
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How to kill a Tiger?
You need bushbeaters,a large party,and a high power rifle at the very least.
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This is actually about an ostie, but it is funny in a roundabout way.
Attacking A1 last night in an Ostie, low buff carpet bombs us GV's. For the first time EVER in a GV, I had a "driver wounded" by a bomb. I was joking around with a squaddie about it, and said that maybe an egg went through the view slot. He replied with "Your head would of blown apart lol." So in that case, I was driving an Ostie with a headless driver ROFL!!
I have that book about panzer battles, I have to read through it again since it has been years since I last read it. Pretty interesting stories in there!
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Originally posted by Sox62
How to kill a Tiger?
You need bushbeaters,a large party,and a high power rifle at the very least.
BIG Elephants too !!! :D
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tiger shmiger the panzer is still the best...except when it gets killed in one hit while the enemy panzers are still invisible!!!
as to kill one you dont...you kill the crew not the tank itself...got one with a m16 in the hth once...drove right to its front while it was distracted and started putting mg through its veiw slit...of course what i didnt see was its panzer freind on the hill 2k away
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Where do I get little white rocks as loadout?
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Originally posted by Dowding
Near misses from 1k bombs would put Tiger's on their backs in real life. Check out the damage done to tanks after the pre-D-Day carpet bombing of the Normandy area.
A near miss from a 1k bomb does nothing - in real life. Near misses from 1k bombs --> string of bombs.
curly
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Ive done this exact attack many times. Never once did the tiger even smoke I have pumped 20 37mm AP m8 rounds into the back of a tiger from point blank range and never as far as I could tell ever did any damage to one.
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Originally posted by vorticon
tiger shmiger the panzer is still the best...except when it gets killed in one hit while the enemy panzers are still invisible!!!
This brings up something I would like to see added to the Panzer IV and Tiger -- commander's cupola views. When you're in the gunner position, you can't see anything except straight down the gunsight. Since you are theoretically in a fully-crewed tank, I think that it would be beneficial if HTC added cupola-slit views for the other eight view directions for the Panzer IV and Tiger for position 2. This would represent the tank commander's ability to look around from the cupola without unbuttoning, and simplify the interior art, too -- all you would need for each view is a black screen with a vision-slot view like the driver's position has.
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Two tigers are walking along a jungle trail in single file.
The rearmost tiger wanders off the trail for a few minutes, then reappears shortly thereafter. A few moments later, the front tiger feels what seems to be the other tiger's tongue, applied just below his tail. The tiger disapproves of this action, but doesn't want to start anything by bringing it up. Then, the tiger again feels the tongue, again in the same place.
He decides to confront the after tiger, and asks him, "Did you just lick me twice in the butt?"
The other tiger replied, "Yeah, sorry about that. I just ate a lawyer and I was trying to get the taste out of my mouth."
Oh wait, this was about killing tigers, will look some more.
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What I have found to work well when I am attacking them in an m8, is to get point blank behind them and shoot the back of their turret. Same thing for panzers.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
A near miss from a 1k bomb does nothing - in real life. Near misses from 1k bombs --> string of bombs.
curly
Curly, back in the mid 1970s, I observed the results of A-4s dropping pairs of Mk.83 1,000 lb bombs on the Guantanamo live ordnance range. Their targets were several old M-48 tanks (about 47 tons I believe). A well-aimed pair of Mk.83s exploded within yards of one M-48. When the dirt and smoke cleared, the M-48 was laying upside down, its turret on the ground alongside. I think we need to define what a near miss is. During the massive bombing as a preliminary to Operation Cobra, the commander of the Panzer Lehr Division reported many of his Panthers, Mk.IV tanks and Assault Guns tossed about like toys, some 50 yards from where they had been placed. Likely, those were victims of 2,000 and even 4,000-pound bombs. Nonetheless, a pair of 1,000-pound bombs landing within a few yards will send a Tiger for a rather impressive ride. Now, if they land at a distance greater than 50-100 yards, concussion becomes the only significant factor, especially if the hatches are open.
My regards,
Widewing
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Usually the intel people would have to go arround the battle field and see what hulls that had been killed were Tigers and Which were Panzer IVs. The western allies had real trouble telling the difference. All guns were 88s. Most tanks were Tigers.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Curly, back in the mid 1970s, I observed the results of A-4s dropping pairs of Mk.83 1,000 lb bombs on the Guantanamo live ordnance range. Their targets were several old M-48 tanks (about 47 tons I believe). A well-aimed pair of Mk.83s exploded within yards of one M-48. When the dirt and smoke cleared, the M-48 was laying upside down, its turret on the ground alongside. I think we need to define what a near miss is. During the massive bombing as a preliminary to Operation Cobra, the commander of the Panzer Lehr Division reported many of his Panthers, Mk.IV tanks and Assault Guns tossed about like toys, some 50 yards from where they had been placed. Likely, those were victims of 2,000 and even 4,000-pound bombs. Nonetheless, a pair of 1,000-pound bombs landing within a few yards will send a Tiger for a rather impressive ride. Now, if they land at a distance greater than 50-100 yards, concussion becomes the only significant factor, especially if the hatches are open.
My regards,
Widewing
Sure Widewing (concerning 'near miss.') OTOH, concussion effects (not counting shrapnel) from a single 1k bomb will kill humans out to approximately 110 feet. (I don't have the reference handy, but recall Beetle's recent post concerning his inability to kill a tank with a 1k bomb. I posted the link there.)
curly
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Yep, a 1000kg (~2200lbs) bomb should "throw a tank to tree top height".
Camo
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So exactly which part of my post do you disagree with? Widewing was talking about the prelude to D-Day carpet bombing which I was talking about... :)
A near miss with a 1k bomb will toss a tank in the air.
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I don't know the numbers (size of bomb, etc.) but in at least one German AAR I've read Pz IVH or Pz IVJ were 'flipped on their back' by Allied carpet bombing in/around Caen in '44 (Normandy invasion).
Also, close proximity hits from big bombs or large HE (big artillery, SP gun fire, etc.) often would 'mission kill' AFVs without destroying the AFV or the crew outright. Things like gunsights and turret rings being damaged, MA being damaged, etc.
Re: the Gitmo test, I'll bet those M48s had a decent weight/mass advantage over a Pz IV.
Dowding - the Pz VIEs of the sPzAbt near Caen were mainly suffering from immobilization, crew disorientation, etc. from the carpet bombing there. Most of the AFVs that were 'flipped over' were Pz IIIs or Pz IVs.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by icemaw
Ive done this exact attack many times. Never once did the tiger even smoke I have pumped 20 37mm AP m8 rounds into the back of a tiger from point blank range and never as far as I could tell ever did any damage to one.
I've immobilized Pz VIEs in AH with 37mm AP fired from the M8. It took a few hits to do so.
Mike/wulfie
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Sure Widewing (concerning 'near miss.') OTOH, concussion effects (not counting shrapnel) from a single 1k bomb will kill humans out to approximately 110 feet. (I don't have the reference handy, but recall Beetle's recent post concerning his inability to kill a tank with a 1k bomb. I posted the link there.)
curly
I seem to recall that the German officer was Heinz Guderien (could be faulty memory though). Anyway, he wrote that many of his Tank crews and most of his infantry were suffering from shock, utterly incapable of fighting. Concussion need not kill, it need only to induce shock to effectively knock them out of action.
In the game, it takes a direct hit from a 1k bomb to knock out a Tiger. Just the other day, I had one at the edge of an airfield. The area around me looked like a moonscape from literally countless numbers of bombs being dropped. Not only that, but it absorbed at least 6 hits from Panzers, all of which died. Eventually, after killing well over a dozen enemy tanks and planes, and most of the airfield, a Stuka finally hit me with a 1800 kilo bomb. Oddly enough, it was an M16 that did the only damage prior to the Stuka when it shot off a track.
As modeled, a Tiger is one tough monkey.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Dowding
So exactly which part of my post do you disagree with? Widewing was talking about the prelude to D-Day carpet bombing which I was talking about... :)
A near miss with a 1k bomb will toss a tank in the air.
I'm sure carpet bombing is very effective against tanks. The combined blast effect of a nearby string would probably turn them upside down.
However, the statement "A near miss with a 1k bomb will toss a tank in the air" appears to be inaccurate if by "near miss" you mean 30 feet. Clearly, with the correct definition of "near miss", a 1k bomb will turn a 50 ton tank upside down. But, 30 or 50 feet probably won't do it.
Recall the page I mentioned earlier http://coolschool.auf.net/01/frag/spine/fraginfo.htm and its assertion that the effect of blast on personnel is confined to a relatively short distance (110 feet for a 2000 pound bomb.)
If the concussion from a 2k pound bomb won't kill a human at 150 feet, why should we suspect a 1k pound bomb would up-end a 50 ton tank if it missed by 30 feet? Doesn't sound very likely to me.
For a 1k bomb to kill a tiger, I think it's going to have to be so close that it's in effect a direct hit.
curly
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AKCurly your not suposed to (near miss )
the idea is to hit the cockroach:D
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the only 100% way to kill a tiger every time is to let me drive it. Or put it up against GPreddy or one of his AKA's
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in 1986 when i was at armor school at ft. knox, when i was getting my scout training. the instuctors told us the weakest spot on a tank to hit with a tank gun or anti-tank missle is the turret ring. thats the spot where the turret meets the hull. there is always a crack otherwise the turret could not turn. on soviet tanks it was especialy vulnerable because thats where the ammo was stored due to there auto-loading system. a tanks armor cant be thick everywhere so generaly the back, top and bottom are thin. but in battle you dont get to many shots at the back or top and bottom. in my experience in AH, tanks the turret ring is correctly modeled in. its hard to get that shot but i have been close enough (400-500m) to test this myself. i killed a tiger at @400 but it took 6 or 8 good shots to blow him up. a hair low the shot bounced off the hull, a hair to high they bounced off the mantle or the turret. now for me to this the guy in the tiger wasnt that good of a shot and he had other people to shoot at. as for as bombing tigers its the same thing. only a DIRECT HIT will do. i killed one with the 100kg bombs from a la-7. ask dadrabbit if you dont believe me, he was in the tiger. perhaps the hatch was open, i was very surprised that it killed his tiger. i find it very frustrating to hit a tank 5 or 6 times and it kills my tank with 1 shot it dont seem right somehow. but i remember seeing a pic of a sherman tank hit 10 or 15 times by a 88mm gun. the shot made a hole in and a hole out they didnt hit anything important inside so the shermand drove away with a few speed holes. now i have no idea how this game is built so i cant be positive that what im observing is correct. so hitech if you read this please corect me if im wrong.
bigsky
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Originally posted by bigsky
in 1986 when i was at armor school at ft. knox, when i was getting my scout training. the instuctors told us the weakest spot on a tank to hit with a tank gun or anti-tank missle is the turret ring. thats the spot where the turret meets the hull. there is always a crack otherwise the turret could not turn.
In theory, yes. However, that works best with rod penetrators like APFSDS (Armor-Piercing, Fin-Stabilized, Discarding-Sabot) or HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank) rounds; full-caliber solid-shot projectiles benefit less from hitting the turret ring. Another factor making it much less important is that IRL if you hit the turret ring, even if you don't get a K-kill (aka 'brew-up' or outright destruction), you have a good chance of jamming the turret so that it can't rotate -- but AH doesn't model jamming the turret, so you don't get the benefit of that target location.
Aiming for the turret ring is also more effectiv with modern tanks, which are much more likely to require more space in the turret than can be accomodated with a turret the size of the turret ring, and therefore have the turret overhanging the hull, creating a shot trap that guides an incoming round into the turret ring or hull deck (like the rounded bottom of the gun mantlet on early Panthers). Both the PzKpfw IV and PzKpfw VI lack any significant shot trap.
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The damage mod on the Tiger is skewed. I personally feel its way to hard to even damage it let alone kill it.
Case in point.
One Tiger I saw took a string of bombs from a pony (unk size bombs, but no matter) all clustered around the tank. The blew so much dust in the air I couldnt see the tank. It was unscathed. In the RL there would have been SOME damage if not casualties inside from the near miss (or is that a near hit?)
I was about 500 meters away in a M-8 and he did not see me. I closed to within 50 meters and started fireing the 37mm. I know the 37 isnt a big gun, but the M-8 is fast and the 37 has a quick reload time, about 2 sec. I attempted to hit the turret ring and aparently missed as the turret traversed. I hit the treads four times with no effect as the tank started moving later on. As I drve by I hit the boggy wheels, again no effect. I even hit the barrel of the main gun to no effect. I know I hit the Tiger at least ten times all in spots that would have disabled...something.... and the Tiger drove around and finally took me and a few others out.
I feel it needs to be remodeled, it looks like I am not the only one.
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My dad was in nam, he always talks about night when they would get hit with 120mm rockets. He said that not many guys died from them, but the concussion would throw you out of bed even if it landed a long ways off. Those that where unluck to be within 200-300 feet of it would have dislocated limbs, broken bones etc.
Now we are talking about 500-1000lbs bombs, way way more explosive power than 120mm rockets. I would think that at very least you should have severly wounded crew from bomb hits that close to the vehicle.
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I watched a documentry on the tiger not long back, and the commander of one of the tiger was saying they were getting hit from AP rounds from all around. When the battle was over they counted around 140 hits all over the tank. Really it all depended on where u hit it and at what angle.
Main problem with the tiger was its suspension and transmission, many of them had to be abandoned because of this.
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Driving over a piece of wood siding in the town will kill a Tiger. Ask me how I know....
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Tigers ARE fairly impervious (in here, anyhow) to air attack---but if I had a nickel for every time a $#@#@%#@% panzer kilt my tiger w 1-2 shots.....well..id STILL be in debt..but far less so;