Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hortlund on March 03, 2003, 02:20:45 PM
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bwhahaha suck it down Turks.
Guess what, the war will still come to Iraq, there will still probably be hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing to Turkey. There will not be any Turkish forces setting up a buffert zone in N Iraq, though there will be alot of Kurdish activity on that border.
There will however, not be any $ 6 billion aid package from the US.
Congratulations...smart move on that vote...now face the consequences of it...buh bye Turkish economy.
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They did what they thought was right and i salute them for it. If it was the smart thing to do we wont know for a while. But im glad to see some countrys cannot be bought still.
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Yeah they are entitled to make any desicion they want, I agree completely.
They are however, about to learn a valuable lesson on the consequences that comes with each choise they make. $6 billion is alot of money, now they will face the same costs without that contribution...that will hurt alot. Heck it might even create a serious situation in Turkey...economic recession combined with Kurdish aspirations for a free Kurdistan.
But I bet France will bail them out *cough*
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Hi,
Hortlund, just a quick question, do you need an aproval for your postings from any US citizen, or are you allowed to write them without their help?
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Hort,
what Turkish economy?
Ever been to Turkey? $1 US is a lot.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Originally posted by Swoop
Hort,
what Turkish economy?
Yeah, I know. I havent been to Turkey, but Ive got friends who have.
Seriously this will hurt the Turks enormously. And they dont really have the EU to back them up either. I suppose France and Germany will try to put together some kind of EU aid package, but somehow I suspect the Brits wont be thrilled at the idea of funding the Turkish no to help in the war against Iraq.
The combination of an emormous influx of refugees, decline in tourism (because my bet is that the 2003 tourism season will be below average), militant Kurds that see an opportunity for a country of their own...it spells disaster for Turkey really. Combine that with the threat of Saddam launching something at Turkey...
I bet there are some seriously nervous Turks in Istanbul/Ankara/wherever their government sits pondering over the consequences of this.
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Originally posted by Kelly[KGN]
Hi,
Hortlund, just a quick question, do you need an aproval for your postings from any US citizen, or are you allowed to write them without their help?
Hi Kelly,
no I dont need aproval of every specific post. The way it works is me, Animal, Midnight Target and Weazel sit down every Sunday night in a chat session and draw up plans on what I should post and when. The I spend the week trying to follow this plan to the best of my abilities.
This is of motivated by a desire to cause unrest and confusion among the European posters on these boards. The basic idea is that the Euro anti-war front will be split and disorganized when they realize that there are some Euros that actually support the US policy on terror.
Thanks for asking!
And if you want to help, just send me an email, and I will forward this weeks secret BB post-plan.
Best regards
Steve
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I respect turkey alot more now actually. They proved they have alot more character then i thought by standing up for themselves and saying we will handle the problem ourselves if it does indeed become one.
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Hortlund, I'm not anti-war...i'm anti-brainless.
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Now the possibility of solving the problem of governing Iraq includes the option of an independent Kurdistan. Give the Shiites a place in the South and the Sunnis the middle and align them in a loose confederation and it may be possible to avoid a lot of the problems.
I think the Turks will love an independent Kurdistan.
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Originally posted by Kelly[KGN]
Hortlund, I'm not anti-war...i'm anti-brainless.
Good for you Kelly. You should tell people that more often in conversations.
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Turkey got greedy, was holding out for more. Same thing happened in the Phillipines years ago. We're too damn generous in the US, look what we're doing in the Phillipines today. Turkey will probably still get their handout down the road.
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Originally posted by Toad
I think the Turks will love an independent Kurdistan.
Actually I'm starting to come around to that idea too.
Give the Kurds northern Iraq as an independent Kurdistan. I mean that nation is bound to be US friendly. Make sure all Iraqi northern oil fields are within these borders.
Amusing consequence #1:
All French and German current oil contracts becomes null and void.
Amusing consequence #2:
As part of a big aid package to Kurdistan, the US could offer help with exploiting these fields. Like for instance, US companies pay all costs for exploiting the fields and splits the oil profits with Kurdistan. Everybody benefits. Especially the Kurds who are right now living in huts made of dry mud. Give them real houses, a good job working the oil fields and a good salary...its a classic win-win situation.
Amusing sub consequence #1:
OPEC monopoly is broken, oil prices will sink.
Amusing sub sub consequence #1:
This will hurt the Saudi economy.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
I respect turkey alot more now actually. They proved they have alot more character then i thought by standing up for themselves and saying we will handle the problem ourselves if it does indeed become one.
Caving to myopic electoral concerns does not mean you've got character. I strongly doubt that the Turkish parliament "stood up for themselves" so much as the individual members feared the electoral backlash of supporting the United States with a general public squarely against war in Iraq.
That's democratic politics, and that's fine by me. A democracy should represent the interests of its citizens, but that doesn't mean it was, objectively, the right decision for Turkey in the long run. In fact, by most measures it was a horrendous decision that will only come back to bite them in the bellybutton many times over -- economically, militarily, geographically, and geopolitically. Turkey's decision has not made war less likely, and they will now suffer the consequences of war without any of the benefits offered to them from the United States. And that's clearly myopic politics.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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What I find interesting is that they were complaining that promises for past aid, after Desert Storm, never happened. Here they had a chance to cash in, with gurantees, and said "Nahhh".
Wonder what their currency is worth today?
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Why do you think we have lost our friendship with Turkey?
Originally posted by Oedipus
So while some think Turkey lost out on 6 billion in aid I imagine thier friendship was worth a hell of a lot more than that. IMO it's the US that will end up the the loser in all this. BTW, how many countries are there left to burn and scorn for not doing the US's bidding? Anyone got a "burned bridge" tally going?
Oed
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levi, by doing what the people demand is a country standing up for itself. Polititions are supposed to do what the will of the people tell them to do. That is a democracy. By bending to the will of the people they proved they are more of a true democracy then alot of countrys out there. Of course democracys will make some mistakes, but dammit ill take some mistakes made over a dictatorship.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
I respect turkey alot more now actually. They proved they have alot more character then i thought by standing up for themselves and saying we will handle the problem ourselves if it does indeed become one.
Ya better lose that respect soon....they will allow US troops next week at the latest.
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I actually thought I heard the total aid package was around $30 billion, not $6 billion. Either way, it is a lot of money, especially if you are developing country like turkey.
I don't think was a smart move, but then again I am not turkish. If they do start having problems along their border with refugees or military problems, hopefully the US will leave them to solve the problem. If they want our help, we out to charge em every penny they can afford, let em live with there decision.
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I'm a uniter not a divider
--George Bush..
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Turkey just tried to double the jackpot, but they were out of luck. This teaches a valuable lesson, that US has balls to say these beggars, "get a haircut and get a real job".
And for the "Turkey showed Bush they cant be bought", think again really hard, who was the losing side again? Who did not get 6 billion dollars and who saved it? I think with that money you could prolly fill the Persian Gulf with earth and make that whole damn thing one big airfield.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
levi, by doing what the people demand is a country standing up for itself. Polititions are supposed to do what the will of the people tell them to do.
Yes, democracy is all about representing the interests of the people, and I support Turkey's democratic right to vote any way they wish on allowing American military access.
However, I would caution to read too much into the vote. Democratically-elected politicians typically seek reelection above all else (unsurprisingly), so this vote is probably less about "standing up" to America as it is Turkish politicians fearing a reelection backlash by "standing up" to the electorate.
That's not something to respect or disrespect. That's just democratic politics. And in this case, the vote was quite myopic given the long term consequences.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by 10Bears
I'm a uniter not a divider
--George Bush..
You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs
--Big Bird
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90% of the Turkish population didn't want Allied troops...So why the surprise?
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Originally posted by SirLoin
90% of the Turkish population didn't want Allied troops...So why the surprise?
What surprise?
They are about to learn a valuable lesson on how stupid it is to base security policy on opinion polls...
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Hi Kelly,
no I dont need aproval of every specific post. The way it works is me, Animal, Midnight Target and Weazel sit down every Sunday night in a chat session and draw up plans on what I should post and when. The I spend the week trying to follow this plan to the best of my abilities.
This is of motivated by a desire to cause unrest and confusion among the European posters on these boards. The basic idea is that the Euro anti-war front will be split and disorganized when they realize that there are some Euros that actually support the US policy on terror.
Thanks for asking!
And if you want to help, just send me an email, and I will forward this weeks secret BB post-plan.
Best regards
Steve
OMG! You have broken the secret code of the BBS Trilateral Commision!!!
You must now grow a beard and become a raving radical hippie for 1 year to atone for your sins.
I hope your happy!!!
:mad:
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Originally posted by Oedipus
Kanth of course I could be wrong but IMO the US slapped Turkey in the face by cancelling the aid. After 50 years of backing and supporting the US and Nato, against the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc, how warm should Turkey be now towards the US? After making a soveriegn choice not to allow US troops on thier soil which would be used for a war that is not warmly welcomed by most of the planet?
IMO the signal the US sent to Turkey, as well as other countries that have called the US "friend," is that past help and efforts do not carry any future weight. That they are to do the US's bidding like a good lackey, regardless of how much they like or dislike what is asked of them, or the US will be punitive and spiteful.
Oed
Are you arguing that the US should continue to give Turkey aid?? No way in Hell I would hope. I don't care what support they gave in the past supporting US or NATO, they made the decision not to let US troops deploy from their land, knowing aid or no aid was a string attached.
They made there decision, right or wrong, now let them live with it. If US is handing out Aid & $$, they have every right to attach strings to it. Countries can either choose to accept the aid with strings or not to accept, it is their choice. Turkey with their infinate wisdom choose not to accept Aid by not allowing troops. I am sure US will be able to accomplish goals without Turkey. I think in the long run Turkey will feel more pain from this decision than the US.
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MT we are not safe anymore it's time to find another way to do our secret tricks...
(what about a secret handshake ?)
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IMO the signal the US sent to Turkey, as well as other countries that have called the US "friend," is that past help and efforts do not carry any future weight. That they are to do the US's bidding like a good lackey, regardless of how much they like or dislike what is asked of them, or the US will be punitive and spiteful.
You can flip this whole entire thing around too, you know. Why is it punitive or spiteful to revoke aid? The charity Turkey receives is not a right of theirs and is not guaranteed to the end of time. There is only a finite amount of wealth in the USA and there are plenty of people and nations that can use aid. To blackmail your "friend" and say you can make war for $x but not $y really shows that Turkey has no real objection to this war and is just trying to take advantage of its "friend."
[edit]: I'm sure if you personally supported a charity and it no longer represented the goals you seek that you'd stop your charity as well.
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I may have missed this, but has anyone said that the reason teh aid package was not sent was because it was intended to compensate the turks for the costs involved with supporting the planned large troop deployment? So, if the Turks say "I'm sorry, you can't stage an invasion from Turkey, the deployment is off", then it follows suit that the US would not send the money. Sounds elementary to me
"State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said most of the package was predicated on compensating Turkey for the costs of facilitating the deployment of more than 60,000 troops"
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Turkey has reason to...they do not want US troops lingering after Iraq is freed from Saddams reign of terror. Kurds want N. Iraq to become a separate country, "Kurdistan" and Turkey doesn't want that. They be free to spank the Kurds around like Iraq did.
This scenario actually works out for everyones arguement, those who say they were being "bought"(Which they were not, see Ammo's post) can say "Good, they can't be bought" and they can also claim bad diplomacy. Others can say "Good, I'm sick of the US kissing butt to a country like Turkey" while in the same breath can say "We'll stand on our own, we don't need Turkeys help and we CERTAINLY won't be blackmailed further"
Either side of the arguement, its a win win situation. :)
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The Turks have been well paid for their services for the last 50 years...
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"will you sleep with me for 20 bucks?? No?? How about a million bucks?"
'If yah had a million, I'd do it'.
"slut."
look.. I ain't sayin turkeys a slut.. they turned the deal down.
fact is, turkey's been screwed by nato before, been ignored by us, used as a gameplay pawn against the russians for 50 years and is now looking at the most hostile buncha anti-turk ravening nutcases on the planet camped just over the border in iraq. the kurds. they hate each other with a ferocity that would scare the toejam outta a bosnian or a serb. croats are in kindergarden by turkish-kurdish standards.
i ain't sure what it is that turkey wants.. but they FOR SURE don't want an independent kurdish state on their southern border.
otoh, if we diddly the kurds in this iraq/turkey deal, we'll have the most ravening blood thirsty dispossesed pack of people on the planet looking at us with an exceptionally evil eye. we FOR SURE don't wanna piss off the kurds.
'kurdistan' is just ONE hot potato in a whole bowl of steamers.
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The Kurds? A nomadic people with very limited resources. . I don't think too many folks outside of those that have the kurdish within their borders are concerned about them. Additionally, these folks are not exactly innocent either, and I am sure that the Turks, Iragi's, Syrians, etc would say the same. During OPERATION PROVIDE COMFORT, the US would launch mil airlift of supplies destined for the kurdish folks being persecuted (or suppressed, depends on who is speaking) by Saddam Husein (among others persecuting them..for years). It was fairly ironic that we would launch some of these airlift missions from Incirlik AB and not long after that, the Turks would launch their own fighters and gunships to conduct combat ops against the kurds from the very same runways.
BTW, we already have a significant amount of US personnel in Turkey, and they are spreadout all over the country. They perform all kinds of functions ranging from ONW- to spying on the Russians (cough, I mean we USED too), Syrians, Iraqi's..
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I don't think too many folks outside of those that have the kurdish within their borders are concerned about them.
Palestine? Palestinians? Suicide Bombings? Hammas?
Make the connection yet?
Don't shuffle the Kruds aside as meaningless. they'll wind up being the new Palestinians if not handled very freakin carefully...
They need their own state.. and it needs it's borders with Turkey set up as a DMZ with Blue Helmets between 'em.
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I guess I should have been clearer. Those countries that have kurds within theri borders are concerned with them. They are islamic extremists and militant in nature.
So we are kicking the same horse.
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ooops! rgr. sorry.
carry on. ;)
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you da man :D