Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: davidpt40 on March 04, 2003, 09:17:41 PM
-
Well, I heard on tv today that a U.S. RC-135 was engaged by North Korean Mig29s. "Oh" I thought to myself "Good thing our recon and bomber aircraft have F14s and F15s to protect them." Then the story went on to say that the RC-135 was flying without escort, AS USUAL, and that the North Korean aircraft engaged it 250 miles out over the ocean and proceeded to get radar lock and perform mock attacks on it. One such mock attack was a Mig zooming past the RC135 within 25 feet.
It seems that our military would learn to escort our recon aircraft on hostile missions, especially when we have already lost one aircraft on a very similar mission to China. Not only was the crew nearly killed, but every single piece of surviellance equipment was inspected by the Chinese.
What am I even paying taxes for? If something like 22 cents of every tax dollar is spent on defense, why cant we get some fighter escort? Heck, I could do a better job of mission planning than some of these airforce/navy guys.
-
They routinely fly the route, at the same schedule and time, and have done for many years so that there is some sense of regularity sensed by NK. Theres a diplomatic reason behind it.
-
"It seems that our military would learn to escort our recon aircraft on hostile missions"
Hmmm flying in International Air Space is now a hostile mission?
What would your reaction be if we splashed a few of their MIGs and they didn't fire first. Would it be, How come our military is filled with morons?
-
It's international sea/airspace
This is just a case of N.Korea getting froggy.
Think of China a while back.
N.Korea has also said that they consider the joint excerise between S.Korea and the U.S. to be a preparation to attack N.Korea.
They further said that this will be a prelude to another "Korean War".
-
LOL!
Then the story went on to say that the RC-135 was flying without escort, AS USUAL,
We don't normally escort aircraft engaged in peactime operations well outside national borders.
and that the North Korean aircraft engaged it 250 miles out over the ocean
Exaggeration.. it was closer to 100 miles out and the aircraft was not 'engaged' it was 'harrased'.
One such mock attack was a Mig zooming past the RC135 within 25 feet.
Exaggeration.. it was no closer than 50 feet in the report i read, but I will grant you that the NK flight profile was exceedingly dangerous and violated international saftey regulations.
It seems that our military would learn to escort our recon aircraft on hostile missions,
again.. exaggeration.. we were not on a 'hostile' mission. The NK and anybody else is free to fly anything they want anywhere in international airspace.
What am I even paying taxes for? If something like 22 cents of every tax dollar is spent on defense,
I doubt seriously you are actually paying any taxes as a college student. However the taxes I spend go towards maintaining the strongest military in the world.. so that when NK does in fact start a war we will be able to snuff 'em without your college gettin nuked in the process.
We hope.
;)
-
Kinda surprised they risked their best since they have only a relative few Mig 29s. They must have been fairly confident there would be no accidents or incidents.
They do have more than a few Mig 21s though. No matter, push comes to shove I bet we'll do even better than the 14-1 kill ratio we had before considering the technology level was far more equal then than it is now.
-
I forgot...N.Korea also said the would use nuclear weapons.
Sounds a little crazy...even Hussien hasn't openly threatened like this.
Even the N.Korean military confidently say that they will win against the U.S. in a war.
Could be an intersting year. Possibly dissappointing for two nations if certain goverment agencies have the balls.
-
i hear the russians have a diffrent K/D ratio for the 'first' Korean Conflict. Though I doubt their numbers.. I know for sure the 14/1 ratio mentioned above is bogus.
-
Comedy Gold
TheWobble is that you?
-
Originally posted by Hangtime
i hear the russians have a diffrent K/D ratio for the 'first' Korean Conflict. Though I doubt their numbers.. I know for sure the 14/1 ratio mentioned above is bogus.
It's still touted today, how do you know for sure?
-
>We don't normally escort aircraft engaged in peactime
>operations well outside national borders.
Ok, I've read somewhere that there were two F-15s or perhaps F-16s some twenty miles back. Not sure if thats the case or not. If they were AMRAM armed, they could have knocked off the four fiters without engaging visually. Escorting the 135 up close may seem antagonistic or something and having fighters of two sides within visual range might make somebody extra trigger happy. It could have been worse. Glad it turned out for the better.
BTW: IMO BVR would be better in this arrangment because of what I mentoned above as well as 4 exp pilots vs 2 exp pilots is a bad situation. In a more mixed combat situation, pilot quality may be more diverse but I think in such initial tangos, one would probably expect some hotshots up there. My guess. Now if Drex was up there they be 4 dead migs. lol
-
We don't normally escort aircraft engaged in peactime operations well outside national borders.
You just said that the 250 mile range was bogus, and that it was closer to 100 miles. 100 miles is nothing in terms of flight time.
it was closer to 100 miles out and the aircraft was not 'engaged' it was 'harrased'.
With you being a Vietnam vet (I think), why dont you tell me how many U.S or NVA soldiers who were killed by "harassing" fire? Doesn't matter what you call it, you could say the Migs were trying to have "tea time" with the RC135 if you want, they were still acting very hostile.
again.. exaggeration.. we were not on a 'hostile' mission. The NK and anybody else is free to fly anything they want anywhere in international airspace.
Funny. Well the U.S. seems to think that actions are "hostile" when the Russians try to run surviellance missions with Bear Bombers near U.S. airspace. I'm sure you have seen pictures of F14s and F15s escorting the Bears away. And if surviellance isnt considered "hostile", why was a Mig25 tracked flying at Mach 2.9 on a recon mission near Israel? Much more fuel effecient to fly subsonic right?
I doubt seriously you are actually paying any taxes as a college student. However the taxes I spend go towards maintaining the strongest military in the world.. so that when NK does in fact start a war we will be able to snuff 'em without your college gettin nuked in the process.
What in the world...in case you didn't know, theres really only two ways to go to college. Either join the military and get the GI bill (which probably applies to 90% of the crew of that RC135) or get a job to pay for it yourself. In the spare time I do have from working 3rd shift and going college, I do enjoy reading a little military history.
-
It's how the numbers were compiled.. if you look at actual air to air combats instead of total losses regardless of how those losses occured, you can't get the 13/1 ratio i usually see touted..
Soviet forces claimed 1309 American aircraft kills of all types, while admitting to losing some 350 aircraft and 200 pilots. American records generally agree that U.S. losses were around 1300, but only 139 were lost in air-to-air combat. The rest were lost to anti-aircraft fire or for other reasons. The U.S. claims 823 MiG-15 kills (792 by Sabre pilots). Some of the downed MiGs may have been piloted by Chinese or North Koreans.
Who were those masked men? (http://www.geocities.com/~whiskey_w/classics/v71who.htm)
So assuming enemy losses of 350 to 139 allied in ACM, thats about 2.5/1
Not that it matters much.. just a point of intrest. :)
-
I've seen numbers from as low as 2:1 up to 14:1. No arguing there isn't usually some exageration during war, still, can't be sure the higher number isn't accurate, imo.
-
I flew RC missions from 75-80. I can only remember being escorted on a bare handful of them and those were in the Med off Libya. Navy Tomcats were the escorts.
I flew NK missions more times than I can count. Never got intercepted. They tried, but we have ways. :) Well, we had ways. I been out of it a long time now. Never intercepted by the Chinese either; we didn't let them get close.
Russians? Sure, NP. Intercepted many times by them. Cubans? Sure, NP. Intercepted many times by them.
And we flew about 20 miles off the coasts, not 150.
Reconaissance isn't considered hostile unless it actually crosses from International Airspace into National Airspace. Those Bears the US escorted down the coast weren't considered hostile, any more than we were when the Russians intercepted us off Vladivostok in International Airspace.
Both sides saw the value of Recon. It's just that there are some countries that are not considered "stable" so you don't give them a chance to prove it. NK is one of those. Well, it was that way when I did the job.
I'm thinking Tac Doctrine must have changed with respect to NK in order for them to have gotten that close. Two other possibilities: Somebody on our side screwed up big time or NK has developed capabilities that they never had before and very, very few folks DO have.... if any one does.
And, like Forrest Gump, "that's all I have to say about that".
-
With you being a Vietnam vet (I think), why dont you tell me how many U.S or NVA soldiers who were killed by "harassing" fire? Doesn't matter what you call it, you could say the Migs were trying to have "tea time" with the RC135 if you want, they were still acting very hostile.
Jeeeezus popsicle, kid; where's yer friggin brain? The Migs did not open fire.. the RC135 was not engaged in 'hostile operations' and if they had wanted to shoot the damn thing down they woulda. Friendly hint... In person, the vietnam bit in your hostile retort woulda earned you a day at the dentist. Back off.
Funny. Well the U.S. seems to think that actions are "hostile" when the Russians try to run surviellance missions with Bear Bombers near U.S. airspace.
Check yer facts. How many have we shot down? We intercept, yes. We've even harrased 'em at times. They intercept us. they harrass us at times. This games been going on for over 50 years, son. It ain't nothin new. Return your copy of Top Gun to the video store and crack a history book.
I'm sure you have seen pictures of F14s and F15s escorting the Bears away.
Correct up to the word 'away'. We'd escort them as they flew DIRECTLY over or CV groups off vietnam. We escort them as they flew down our coatline right outside the international line.
And if surviellance isnt considered "hostile", why was a Mig25 tracked flying at Mach 2.9 on a recon mission near Israel?
Again.. misquote of the facts. That Egyptian Mig flew OVER Israel.. and if the Israli's coulda nailed it they would have.. and nobody would have said boo.. as long as they nailed it OVER Israli airspace. And.. nobody went to war because of the overflight.
Note: our U2's and SR71's have been encroaching on just about everybodys airspace for 50 years.. and nobodys gone to war for it.. and, you might note, we've lost some of 'em while they were doing it.
In THIS case, we were being non-provocative, flying a scheduled routine evesdropping mission over international airspace. The NK's came out to say 'HI!". Everybody went home alive. And for this, your calling 'everybody in the military a moron'? Had that been a U2 OVER NK and it got tagged, what would be your commentary then? "How come our military is filled with morons?"
Kid, yer dialouge is about as rational as Pongyangs.
-
Originally posted by Hangtime
Jeeeezus popsicle, kid; where's yer friggin brain? The Migs did not open fire.. the RC135 was not engaged in 'hostile operations' and if they had wanted to shoot the damn thing down they woulda. Friendly hint... In person, the vietnam bit in your hostile retort woulda earned you a day at the dentist. Back off.
Agreed. Specially considering that the U2 and the SR71 isn't armed.
Did you know that the SR71 has only a 50mph window to fly in? Any slower and it falls out of the sky and any fast and it rips to pieces.
-
Originally posted by Drunky
Agreed. Specially considering that the U2 and the SR71 isn't armed.
enh? an RC135 is a big 'ol boeing 707 type. certainly it ain't armed.
Did you know that the SR71 has only a 50mph window to fly in? Any slower and it falls out of the sky and any fast and it rips to pieces.
err.. i suspect you mean U2.. not SR71.
Here, have a beer. ;)
-
.
-
Correction: Hang and someone else was right. I was thinking of the U2 not the SR-71.
I'm less drunk now and I also remember them talking about how venerable the U2 is. Aren't they around 50 years old? Maybe 40?
Any slower and it falls out of the sky due to lack of atmosphere and any faster and the plane crumples.
I think the article also said that only 50 or so pilots are qualified at anytime during the year to fly them
-
Do the math...
A recon aircraft on a benign route. What's the RC-135 on station time? Somewhere between 11 and 20 hours.
Onstation time for a fighter? 2-3 hours.
So... We send more fighters or an additional tanker aircraft.
All for an aircraft that is flying in international airspace.
It's not cost effective.
Oh... and Hang is right too.
-
On station where you actually want to be is usually in the 8-10 hour range. Unless you come out, refuel and go back in.
It'd take LOTS of fighters and tankers. That's why you usually get a Navy cap if there's a CV nearby and rarely see an AF cap. I never had an AF cap.
-
Shit they let me in and let me reup for 12 years, it must be filled with morons.
-
Originally posted by Gyro/T69
What would your reaction be if we splashed a few of their MIGs and they didn't fire first. Would it be, How come our military is filled with morons?
At the point those migs reached, they would have been splashed instantly by any american fighters.
-
How come our military is filled with morons?
The first thing that comes to mind is "you must have relatives in the service davidpt".
There is so much wrong on so many levels with you making such a stupid statement, I realize you are lacking the brainpower and maturity to understand anything about the situation, or our military for that matter.
Heck, I could do a better job of mission planning than some of these airforce/navy guys.
I am sure there is a recruiting office not far from your home and they would just love to let you come aboard and offer your talents.
But no, I suspect you are a man of many words and few deeds.
dago
-
Originally posted by Dago
The first thing that comes to mind is "you must have relatives in the service davidpt".
There is so much wrong on so many levels with you making such a stupid statement, I realize you are lacking the brainpower and maturity to understand anything about the situation, or our military for that matter.
I am sure there is a recruiting office not far from your home and they would just love to let you come aboard and offer your talents.
But no, I suspect you are a man of many words and few deeds.
dago
Thank you Dago I couldn't come up with much more than "diddly you, you little ungrateful turd."
-
Concho....Dago
-
The use of gun cameras to award kills based on how hard the enemy was hit not it in fact blowing up led to over scoreing. The Mig 15 could take alot of 50 cal hits and still land..hundereds of them according to the Russians.
-
I couldn't come up with much more than "diddly you, you little ungrateful turd."
That works too.
dago
-
There is so much wrong on so many levels with you making such a stupid statement, I realize you are lacking the brainpower and maturity to understand anything about the situation, or our military for that matter.
Alright, settle down guys. I know that your Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome is kicking in. I used that provocative title to draw in people.
I just re-read my posts, and I don't see anything negative that a good, loyal military person would find offensive. Perhaps I struck a chord with the folks that truely were military screw-ups.
But the fact of the matter is, the U.S. just lost one recon plane a few years ago, and now they had a very close-call with a country where tensions are rapidly building. Argue all you want, but even I can see that a plane based on an aging 1960s passenger jet design shouldn't be flying defensless next to a country that has already threatened to restart the Korean War.
Thank you Dago I couldn't come up with much more than "diddly you, you little ungrateful turd."
I didnt know the court system had started the "Prison or the Army" program again Dago. But hey, someone had to do the toejam-barrel burning detail. You and hangtime can swap stories about that sometime, that is if he remembers anything from the 60s and 70s.
Jeeeezus popsicle, kid; where's yer friggin brain? The Migs did not open fire.. the RC135 was not engaged in 'hostile operations' and if they had wanted to shoot the damn thing down they woulda. Friendly hint... In person, the vietnam bit in your hostile retort woulda earned you a day at the dentist. Back off.
I really didnt think I wrote anything offensive. But as long as your talking about physical violence, what are you going to do about it? You gotta be pushing 60, I am nearly 20. I would put you in a wheelchair long before you sent me to the dentist, you drugged out old shell of a man. But I realize that typing on the internet gives you a sense of power.
-
Keep diggin' that hole wise guy.
-
Uh oh, looks like I got another old-timer after me. So whats your beef with me FunkedUp (I assume your handle is short for diddlyed-up, referring to the status of your life)?
-
Originally posted by davidpt40
(I assume your handle is short for diddlyed-up, referring to the status of your life)?
I'm curious how, by adding an "n," you come up with a handle that's short for something shorter.
These are curious times in which we live.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
I'm curious how, by adding an "n," you come up with a handle that's short for something shorter.
My mistake. Let me correct myself by using the word SYNONYMOUS. I am sorry that my grammatical error caused you much distress and personal agony.
-
Originally posted by davidpt40
Let me correct myself by using the word SYNONYMOUS. I am sorry that my grammatical error caused you much distress and personal agony.
It didn't really cause me much distress, but it did solidify my opinion of you as a diddlying idiot.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
Leviathon you have been WARNED!
-
It didn't really cause me much distress, but it did solidify my opinion of you as a diddlying idiot.
I'm smart enough to realize when I'm being antagonized.
-
Originally posted by Drunky
No, seriously...the Blackbird has a small speed windown to fly in required by it's altitude. I read this the other day on MSN.
Any slower and it falls out of the sky due to lack of atmosphere and any faster and the plane crumples.
I think the article also said that only 50 or so pilots are qualified at anytime during the year to fly them.
Drunky,
I do not know where they (MSN) got there information from but they are not even close (the top speed of the SR-71 is still classified and will be for a long time, I will say this though Stall speed on the SR-71 is around 180 Kts (depending on fuel load and which cameras are loaded) and published Top Speed is listed as Mach 3+ that's a hell of a lot more than a 50 kt window.
-
Supposedly....just heard on Fox that we've "deployed" some extra B-1's to the "western Pacific".
Weeee! Here we go, time to shake that stick. The little twerps are gettin a bit to big for there breeches.
-
Originally posted by Lizard3
The little twerps are gettin a bit to big for there breeches.
Oh, not you Dave, the NK's...er well, maybe you too.
-
I should have thought out posting in this thread more fastidiously; each new imbecilic post here is spammingly announced to my e-mail address. As if I care!
-
Better watch your mouth when your talking to me Nath
-
Nath[BDP], if you learn to read the check boxes under the posting window, you'll see one that says 'Email Notification'. Edit your post and uncheck it. It works wonders. ;)
BTW, the BeatDownPosse sounds like an NSync tribute band. I'm sorry, it really does.
-
Well, that was pretty easy. I got an uncultured Brit who doesn't know what blaxploitation is and has no previous connection to this thread's idiocy whatsoever.
skill.
-
lol I bow down to your superior knowledge of Nsync classics and Justin Timberlake dance moves.
'Spect
-
I shall attempt to contrive a retaliation that is equal to Darding's in complete and utter extrinsic senselessness:
Impressive website.
ssss
-
Senselessness is such an ugly word. Inanity is far more attractive. I also enjoy irony. Your website is a perfect example of intrinsic inanity and would be a perfect example of your expertise in this field.
-
nath, dowding, that's got to be the gayest flame war I've ever seen. Mis-spell something for crying out loud. :p
-
Pretty harsh responses davidpt40. Especially to hangtime. Unwarranted in my opinion. You pissed him off and he let you know. Doesn't mean you have to try to cut off his head. The fact that you came back and tried to cut off his head says a lot.
-
You opinion has been duely noted Hblair. Hes gonna have a heart-attack when he sees what I've left for him. Or at least I hope he does.
-
Oooooh get her!
I was enjoying the campness of it. :D
In a deeply, incontravertibly heterosexual way of course.
-
Originally posted by Dago
But no, I suspect you are a man of many words and few deeds.
dago
I think you hit the nail on the head there Dago. As far as him going to a recruiting office....this idiot is the type of kid that we end up wasting valuable tax dollars and effort to get rid of 6 months after they come in.
-
I think a better question would be "why do the people in the military feel the need or desire to protect morons?"
-
davitpt40 has always been a tardlet, but he has reach new and amazing heights on this thread.
I am just sitting here shaking my head, what a complete waste of air.
This kid needs a severe beating...
Your lack of respect for the guys who have served is mind boggling, what are you going to do next go spit on a VFW member and tell him he is a moron cause we didn't win the first Korean war?
You make fun of Hang for talking tough on this board and your doing the same thing, lol, have you ever been in a fight? Or are you the typical 120 pound pimpled faced, never been laid, whacked off tell he is soar, no friends, no car, no life loser?
My money would be on Hang!
The best part is you do not even know how big of a idiot your being.
-
David my last post was not a "beef". It was advice. Your put you foot in your mouth with your original post. Instead of acting like a man and admitting you posted something retarded (which we all do from time to time), you made the situation worse by posting a bunch of macho chest beating baloney.
-
Funked knows what he's talking about!
Cobra
PS...it's not full of morons yet....unless you've joined up within the last 48 hours.
-
(http://www.geoffdavis.com/pics/Flamage/assclown.jpg)
-
LOL Dune!
"awarded for excellence in not knowing what in hell you are talking about, making some roadkill comment, pissing people off or just plain being an idiot."
fits our young tardlet to the 't'.
thanks for the chuckles gents; winding davey up is almost as much fun as a good ch1 whine after a chute slice. ;)