Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Boroda on March 05, 2003, 02:04:18 PM
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50 years ago, on March, 5th, 1953, J.V. Stalin died.
Only one comment for now: our "liberal" right-wing "democratic" politicians are enraged by the way Russian media covers this date. They are pulling out their hair and stomping their feet and ask government to immediately stop this "propaganda of stalinism". Very nice to hear this from "freedom of press" and "democracy" fighters.
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Its all Bush's fault.
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Originally posted by Boroda
50 years ago, on March, 5th, 1953, J.V. Stalin died.
Only one comment for now: our "liberal" right-wing "democratic" politicians are enraged by the way Russian media covers this date. They are pulling out their hair and stomping their feet and ask government to immediately stop this "propaganda of stalinism". Very nice to hear this from "freedom of press" and "democracy" fighters.
Seems to me that there are alot of relatives still around from the millions of his own countrymen he condemned to death that would be celebrating this day, rather than mourning.
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Boroda, I can see how you might feel angry about oppressing "freedom of speech" especially after all those decades without it, but what do the "democracy fighters" have to do with not wanting to celebrate Stalin?
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hitlers birthday isn't even a holiday in germany. Go figure. Seems none of the extreme totalitarian dictators who murder and torture more than a few million of their own people ever get much recognition once they are out of power. Oh well.... you can allways have a wake in the "cell" meeting.
lazs
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Yeah let's celebrate Hitler Day too. What about Pol Pot day or Idi Amin day or Ghadaffi Day?
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lazs2: hitlers birthday isn't even a holiday in germany. Go figure.
If it's a sarcastic remark to Boroda's post, I have to note that celebrating someone's death is not the same as celebrating someone's birth.
Seems none of the extreme totalitarian dictators who murder and torture more than a few million of their own people ever get much recognition once they are out of power.
None? Oh come on... Stalin is recognised in his former empire. Boroda, are his pictures still displayed in homes and cars?
There are still plenty of Maoists and Trotskists in the world.
Also, how about Lincoln? Granted, tens of thousands political opponents not lynched by his thugs outright got released from jails eventually and he never got to murdering millions of civilians but it was quite a feat in those barely-industrial times. He is still celebrated quite a lot.
Boroda - welcome to democracy. "Freedom of speech" is demanded for oneself but denied to everyone else. Quite opposite to "free market" which is demanded for everyone else but not for oneself. Go figure... :)
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
Also, how about Lincoln? Granted, tens of thousands political opponents not lynched by his thugs outright got released from jails eventually and he never got to murdering millions of civilians but it was quite a feat in those barely-industrial times. He is still celebrated quite a lot.
miko
LOL, quite a stretch there to go for a comparison, I'll give you an 8.5 for "fallout effect" that is about to be posted afterward. ;)
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I took time out to recognize the 50th aniversary of Stalin's death. When I was peeing, I intentionally swung wide of the basin and hit the floor. I took a moment to say "That was was for you Stalin. Lap it up."
MiniD
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Ripsnort: LOL, quite a stretch there to go for a comparison, I'll give you an 8.5 for "fallout effect" that is about to be posted afterward. ;)
:)
At least I am not going to argue this point. Whoever interested, can look here King Lincoln Archive (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/lincoln-arch.html) and here Thomas DiLorenzo: Archives (http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo-arch.html)
miko
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Very nice to hear this from "freedom of press" and "democracy" fighters.
You can bet if Stalin were still around you wouldn't have these problems.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
You can bet if Stalin were still around you wouldn't have these problems.
ra
hehe...Irony is so Ironic.
Cobra
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diddly Stalin, if there is a hell, I hope hes burning there.
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Lincolns birthday is not celebrated anymore in the U.S. the only human in the entire U.S. or world history who we feel is worthy of a holiday is.... martin luther king.
miko... hilers death is not given much of a holiday either. As for my remark about recognition... well... that was in context to what boroda said and as such... accurate. the birth and death of totalitarian dictators who slaughter millions of their people is not given much recognition. as for free speech... We certainly do have it.. boroda can say anything he likes... if it is stupid or contraversial or.. simply differs from what someone else believes then... that someone else is "free" to say what they like about it. that's kinda how it works.
lazs
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One of the biggest ironies about Stalin is that he created such a terror in the people who worked for him, that even when he had not emerged from his room for over 24 hours, no-one dare enter to find out the problem in case they incurred his wrath. So he laid there, in a pool of his own piss with no control over his body simply because everyone was terrified of him.
BTW, Trotsky was nothing like Stalin.
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dowding... that seems a fitting way to remember stalin.
lazs
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lazs2 wrote:
Lincolns birthday is not celebrated anymore in the U.S. the only human in the entire U.S. or world history who we feel is worthy of a holiday is.... martin luther king.
Now Now that comment sounded a bit Racist!
You know better than to point out facts that show Racism is alive and well in the NON-white USA.
Oh BTW! What month was chosen for the White History Month?
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Yea Trotsky was nothing like stalin - he was a kind man, the sort of man that would have made communism work and be all flowery and nice...
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by lazs2
Lincolns birthday is not celebrated anymore in the U.S. the only human in the entire U.S. or world history who we feel is worthy of a holiday is.... martin luther king.
President's Day is in February because both Lincoln and Washington were born in that month. We used to have both days (12th and 22nd) off school back in the 60's. The days were consolidated to coinside with a weekend so we could have bigger better furniture sales.
MLK deserves recognition, and he happened to be born in a month that had no other holidays.
:)
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Syphalis (sp?) 1, Stalin 0.
Sounds like a good end score to me.
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Hehe :)
Concerning "freedom of speech":
I am f@#king tired of the hypocricy. When the TV channel gets a new administration because it can't pay it's $250M debts - every dog starts barking about "freedom of speech" just because it's owned by a guy who has good "press record". And when Ministry of Press closes a radical newspaper for some vague violation made two years ago - noone gives a flying f#$k. "Limonka" is a good example. Now the "New Izvestia" is closed for publishing materials against Putin's administration...
The amazinhunk who made statements I quoted above is a well-known "perestroika's ideological father" Alexander Yakovlev... I wonder if they inspired the perestroyka's stream of dirt by directly commanding the press from the Central Commetee...
Now, about Stalin and Stalinism.
There is no doubt that Stalin was the greatest Russian (I mean Russian Empire/USSR/Russian Federation, he was ethnic Georgian) politician in last 250 years. He invented probably the most effective social-economical system possible in Russian conditinons. For me stalinism is a system where any leader has enormous power, but enormous responsibility. To quote the song we all know - "Do or die". And it was the matter of survival for the whole nation, or nations that united into Soviet people.
I hope you all understand that I am not satisfied by the state of affairs in modern Russia. It's the softest way to express what I really feel. What we got here since Gorbachev's times is absolutely no responsibility for any thief in chief.
The most popular novell of the last year was Oleg Divov's "Vybrakovka" ("Quality Control", Miko, can you find a better translation?)... http://lib.ru/RUFANT/DIWOW/wybrakowka.txt
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He invented probably the most effective social-economical system possible in Russian conditinons.
This is preposterous. You assume that any other system would be worse than Stalinism. That is laughable. You believe the Russian people need a steel boot up their bellybutton in order to prosper?
Hey, his system works great in North Korea, too.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
This is preposterous. You assume that any other system would be worse than Stalinism. That is laughable. You believe the Russian people need a steel boot up their bellybutton in order to prosper?
Hey, his system works great in North Korea, too.
ra
"Effective" doesn't mean "nice" or "user friendly". Stalin had a clear and obvious purpose to prepare the country to the WAR that was a question of survival. In 1927 he had nothing. No educated people, no industry, no resources. He managed to get it all in 10-15 years. It was an enormous effort... The cost was horrible, but it was the only way to survive...
The reconstruction after the WAR was another example. The whole country was in ruins, but we had a Bomb only 4 years after the Victory, and reached for space only 12 years after Victory.
That's what I call "effective" economics. You have a problem - and you solve it.
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hmm... mt... so.... ol mlk deserves recognition eh? fair enough.. he had some admirable ideas but.... on a scale of `1-10 for greatest men in history or even U.S. history... I don't think he would even place. There are several months now that have a definate dearth of holidays.. there are eleven that don't have humans birthdays celebrated. someone is getting very "special" treatment... wouldn't you say?
lazs
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MLK was one of the greatest men of the 20th century. If he were British, I would have no problem with having a holiday in his honour. Colour has nothing to do with it.
Under great provocation he espoused non-violent protest. I'd say he is a great example to black people or down-trodden people everywhere.
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dowding... that isn't what I asked.
I got no problem with having someones birthday being a holiday.... I like holidays. Who do you pick tho? and.... If you are only going to have one then.... maybe he ought to be pretty darn special.
lazs
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My point about President's Day was that it was a celebration of Lincoln and Washington's birthdays. So it can be argued that MLK is not the only American so honored.
BTW... can you name 10 Americans who deserve the honor more than MLK?
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Can't believe you guys are picking on that great humanitarian, Stalin.
Do you have any idea how many people were brought to a state of Eternal Peace by this guy?
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1. Henry Ford
2. Wright Brothers
4. Dwight Eisenhower
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Stanley Kubrick
7. Jim Beam
8. Mario Andretti
9. Jimi Hendrix
10. Al Davis
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At least 12 million.
He was a great guy, and his moustache was finely crafted.
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There ya go... at least 12 million eternally peaceful customers.. and you guys are dissing him.
BTW, thanks again Boroda. I need a laugh today. I'm telling ya, you could make way more than Yakov Smirnoff. He just jokes about it. You appear to believe it. That would make the act WAY< WAY funnier.
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In 1927 he had nothing.
Er...didn't he have an officer corps at about that time?
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No, that's Nazi propaganda propagated by decadent and biased Western post-WW2 historians. There was never an officer corps, just huge day trips for uniformed men around recently opened open cast mines. Some of them were careless and slipped, machine gunning themselves from behind as they fell into the hole.
It really was a tragedy.
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And such a common trajgedy. You'd have thought they'd have put up safety ropes or cancelled the trips altogether.
Which brings us to the US/Jewish/Muslim extremist conspiracy to implement dangerous day trips to open mines for the Russian officer corps that was well known back then.........
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BTW... can you name 10 Americans who deserve the honor more than MLK?
I think there might be a few more than 10 to be found among the folks who've recieved one or more of these...
(http://www.cmohs.org/images/medal4_efficient.jpg)
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I am a frequent visior to the official MOH memorial. (It is 5 miles from my home) They were indeed heroes Hang, and should be honored.
None however affected the lives of as many people as MLK.
On your list funked, I will only agree with Jim Beam.. the rest are pretenders.
Here is the museum (http://www.homeofheroes.com/a_homepage/community/displays/national_sites/riverside.html)
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Originally posted by Ossie
Er...didn't he have an officer corps at about that time?
If I understood you correctly.
My Grandfather was a Kombrig (Brigade commander) in 1932. He was an Imperial officer. 2nd Pskov Lieb-Dragoon regiment, Riga front since 1916. He was a kornet. Second lt. in your terms. Order of Red Banner #123, a regiment commander in 1919...
In 1932 ge was arrested as a "member of officers coup". There was no such word as "officer" in Soviet language that time... Anatoly Nikolaevich was released in 1933, but became an ordinary major...
He was one of the best. I have a photo where he is with Kirponos and other great Army commanders.
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Hmmm, almost, but no I don't think you quite understood. By "corps" I meant "corps" as in "The Officer Corps for the US military consists of graduates from West Point, Anneapolis, The Citadel, etc."
My question was if the military, as it existed when Stalin came to power, had a corps of officers. This is in your reference to Stalin, the great politician, turning "nothing" into "something" when he came to power. My question is in regards to this "something" (military officers) seemingly becoming very much "nothing" during the same length of time, a time that by your own assertion was focused on preparing for war. But of course I can't say for sure that I'm not a victim of Nazi propaganda and US/Jewish/Muslim extremist conspiraces...
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henry ford was a nazi
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Originally posted by Ossie
Hmmm, almost, but no I don't think you quite understood. By "corps" I meant "corps" as in "The Officer Corps for the US military consists of graduates from West Point, Anneapolis, The Citadel, etc."
My question was if the military, as it existed when Stalin came to power, had a corps of officers. This is in your reference to Stalin, the great politician, turning "nothing" into "something" when he came to power. My question is in regards to this "something" (military officers) seemingly becoming very much "nothing" during the same length of time, a time that by your own assertion was focused on preparing for war. But of course I can't say for sure that I'm not a victim of Nazi propaganda and US/Jewish/Muslim extremist conspiraces...
Ossie, Red Army had no "officers" until 1940 (IIRC). They were called "commanders".
My GrandFather was an old Imperial officer who retired in 1918 after the collapse of Riga front and Brest peace treaty. Later he was recruited by the famous Trodskiy's order and became a regiment commander in about one year.
Stalin didn't have real "officers corps". The "specialists" like my Grandfather were rare and. The best word that describes the fate of Russian Imperial officers corps is "tragedy"...
Anyway, Stalin had to create a whole new officers corps. My another GrandFather is a good example: he was a son of a Ukrainian village blacksmith, who went to Krasnodar Artillery College in 1937, and in Summer, 1941 was one of the first specialists to work with jet mortars. He spent about one year at the frontline and then served as a tutor in Krasin's Artillery College until the end of the War. This people who graduated from military colleges and academies in late 30s-early 50s were the main force (wrong word, maybe "mainstay" is the right one?) of the Soviet army until the 80s.
Dowding, where did you get that 12 million number? Just curious. 12 million is almost 10% of the whole population of USSR in the 30s.
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Various accounts. I've seen the figure quoted from 8 to 40 million with 12 million being most often quoted by reliable historians.
The true issue, however, is not this grotesque numbers game, it is the fact that Stalin did kill millions of his own people - deliberately, intentionally, cold-heartedly and with the exact same deliberation as those who devised the Final Solution for European Jews. And for you to bask in some sick 'glory' of Soviet achievement, while in passing merely mentioning that the wholesale murder and terror was 'necessary to survive' is laughable. I only hope your opinions aren't shared by many Russians, but sadly I know that not to be the case.
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Yes, my opinions are not shared by many Russians, but are shared by millions too.
Dowding, you probably quote Solzhenitsyn, who already said that he simply used numbers that he thought will be big enough to accuse "bloody commies".
Do you know that now in Russian Federation we have more people in prisons and camps then in the whole USSR during the worst years of Stalin's terror?... Definetly something to think about :(
It's too easy to make accusations. Charles Dikkens wrote that for stealing 20 shillings you could be hanged in good old England...
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How can you just excuse off stalinds murders of millions as some lie Boroda...
What the diddly is wrong with you, have you no shame?
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Some credible scholars believe that Stalin was in the process of planning a nuclear war with the West when he died. He had also ordered the construction of massive prison camps at that time. For this reason it was believed that he was also about to start another massive purge.
It is now believed that he was poisoned by his own inner circle with warfarin a rat poison that causes hemorrhaging.
They did this to prevent the war with the West.
It is a blessing for the USSR that he died when he did.
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Ossie, Red Army had no "officers" until 1940 (IIRC). They were called "commanders".
That's great. Now that we've cleared up the semantics, what exactly happened to roughly half of his "commanders" in the late `30's?
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mt... if your criteria is "affecting lives" then I can name ten presidents and inventors who are more important than mlk.... by your logic u would be happy to have "self appointed black leader day" replace mlk day?
lazs
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Did I just read that Boroda would prefer to be back under Stalinism?
In 1927 he had nothing. No educated people, no industry, no resources. He managed to get it all in 10-15 years. It was an enormous effort... The cost was horrible, but it was the only way to survive...
My stinky butt! He had nothing 'cause he killed everyone off!
BTW, I thought the accepted number was 20-million dead by Stalin, which is the same amount that was lost during the war.
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Originally posted by lazs2
mt... if your criteria is "affecting lives" then I can name ten presidents and inventors who are more important than mlk.... by your logic u would be happy to have "self appointed black leader day" replace mlk day?
lazs
So... name em.
And, Martin Luther King Jr. was hardly "self appointed".
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Susan B Anthony?
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well... there is Jefferson and Washington and Lincoln and Teddy and FDR and Truman and of course Regan if you count ending the evil empire and don't forget the fact that he isn't dead yet... Lot's more if you just think about it... heck I would even take that criminal JFK over mlk. Heck... why not an inventor or two.... maybe ol einstein? sheesh.... mlk? it's embarassing.
as for mlk... it must have been a secret black vote that made him a leader. He sure seemed self appointed to me. Still... I liked the guys ideas. I think he was right in most cases. Don't think he would agree with the way things have gone tho with affirmative action and all.
lazs
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What the diddly is wrong with you, have you no shame?
Very nice to hear such things from an amazinhunk that said geoncide in Srpska Krajna was only a "nessesary measure".
GH, my family suffered enough in the 30s. Now I look around and see that 90% of government administration deserves to be hanged on the street lamps, together with 99.9% of our beloved Militia. All I want is some responsibility for them. Maybe not even cutting trees for life, but at least the prohibition to get government jobs again.
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Originally posted by Habu
Some credible scholars believe that Stalin was in the process of planning a nuclear war with the West when he died. He had also ordered the construction of massive prison camps at that time. For this reason it was believed that he was also about to start another massive purge.
It is now believed that he was poisoned by his own inner circle with warfarin a rat poison that causes hemorrhaging.
They did this to prevent the war with the West.
"Popular history" AKA "propaganda warfare" in action. That article in Washington Post is nothing more then a hallucination.
Stalin was pragmatic. He never ever thought about starting a full-scale war with the West. USSR was busy enough trying to "disgest" the so-called "people's democratic" countries. There are _really_ reliable accounts that Stalin was against the war with "allies" in 1945 when Soviet army could easily sweep them into the Atlantic...
About "construction of massive prison camps" and "another massive purge": another thing we suddenly learned 15 years after every commie amazinhunk started to pour crap on Stalin. When Jewish "dissidents" all at once suddenly start to remember how they were preparing to go to Siberia in 1953 - I call it another roadkill. "State antisemitism" in Stalin's era is very much overestimated.
Hey, where is Toad with his "reliable sources" about endless millions of Jews repressed by Evil Stalin? I bet he got something as impressive as "Soviet Intervention to Poland in 1920" from his last list of "documents"!
Originally posted by Habu
It is a blessing for the USSR that he died when he did.
Maybe. Or maybe not. The gang of amazinhunks who came to power in Summer, 1953 was probably the worst thing in our country that happened since 1917.
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Oh, I think you're doing a fine job of destroying any credibility you may have left all by yourself in this thread.
I must admit though, it hasn't been quite as entertaining as some of your other Fractured Fairytales of Soviet History.
:D
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Originally posted by Ossie
That's great. Now that we've cleared up the semantics, what exactly happened to roughly half of his "commanders" in the late `30's?
It's difficult to compare Red Army in late-20s and late-30s. The army based on cavalry, with a sabre, three-line rifle with a bayonet and 3" field cannon as main weapons compared to a modern army with several thousands of tanks and modern airplanes, jet artillery and radars.
Purges in the army did happen. But you have to look at the people who were repressed, and at those who survived or were returned to service. For me it's very personal... I hate to say this, but Grandfather was lucky to get into that bloodbath in 1932, to be released 1.5 years later and become a commander of an Army horse farm. :(
OTOH: another Grandfather married a daughter of an "enemy of the people" in 1940, that didn't prevent him from working with the deadliest and most secret weapons invented by human kind one year later...
Thigs were not simply "black and white". It's difficult to talk to Westerers about life in USSR, it was too different being the same in some fields. For you it's a complete nonsence, but for me it's just life.
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Originally posted by Toad
Oh, I think you're doing a fine job of destroying any credibility you may have left all by yourself in this thread.
I must admit though, it hasn't been quite as entertaining as some of your other Fractured Fairytales of Soviet History.
:D
Toad, can you please educate me about "Soviet intervention to Poland in 1920"? :D Just tell me what happened in your own words, without quotations.
I kindly advise you to read the things i answer to you and more to say, try to read some things you post yourself.
I understand that it's hard to argue with a "commie bastard" who had an opportumity to read both Eastern and Western versions of history when you are a brainwashed "free-world" propaganda repeater.
About the things I posted in a message you probably replied to. Someone very clever said in about 1987: "I don't believe in instant collective illuminations". "Illumination" is probably a wrong word, I mean when someone suddenly undertands something that was hidden from him for long tilme. In Russian is sounds like "Ya ne veryu v mgnovenniye kollektivniye prozreniya" (ß íå âåðþ â ìãíîâåííûå êîëëåêòèâíûå ïðîçðåíèÿ).
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As far as I know (but I could be wrong) "Soviet intervention to Poland in 1920" is more "Polish intervention to USSR in 1920" :)
And that's the 1st time the Soviet were in contact with de Gaulle ;)
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Originally posted by straffo
As far as I know (but I could be wrong) "Soviet intervention to Poland in 1920" is more "Polish intervention to USSR in 1920" :)
And that's the 1st time the Soviet were in contact with de Gaulle ;)
I'd better call it "Polish intervention to Belorussia and Ukraine in 1919". Straffo, you spoiled the whole game with mr. Radio for me :)
I didn't know about de Gaulle, where can I read something about it?
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Look here : http://www.charles-de-gaulle.org/en/books_art/fiches_t/cdg_vistule.htm
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Originally posted by Ossie
That's great. Now that we've cleared up the semantics, what exactly happened to roughly half of his "commanders" in the late `30's?
Half? I read the book Stalingrad, direct quote:
"Altogether, 36,671 officers were executed, imprisoned or dismissed, and out of the 706 officers of the rank of brigade commander and above, only 303 remained untouched. Cases against arrested officers were usually grotesque inventions".
Seriously i recommend everyone to read this book, as its packed with astonishing details about the commanders personal feelings, soldiers and especially Stalins unmatched paranoia. (hundreds of quotes from love letters and personal diaries) Hes NO DOUBT the most cruel and insane leader of 1900 century. He slaved his patriotic (still to this day) and humble people with insane cruelty. He is directly responsible of 10-20 million deaths of his own people, who blindly served him like god. Lots of historically important archives have "top secret" stamp on them, prolly to the bitter end, as theres currently ex-KGB agent leading the nation.
Boroda is simply Stalinist and he will propably refuse everything that is not written by Stalin himself. I remember statistics, that 50% of the russians think that Stalin made more good to its country than bad. If only the dead ones could speak.
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Originally posted by funkedup
1. Henry Ford
2. Wright Brothers
4. Dwight Eisenhower
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Stanley Kubrick
7. Jim Beam
8. Mario Andretti
9. Jimi Hendrix
10. Al Davis
All I really want to know is, what happened to number 3?
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#3 is reserved for those guys that did the top secret deeds ;)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Very nice to hear such things from an amazinhunk that said geoncide in Srpska Krajna was only a "nessesary measure".
GH, my family suffered enough in the 30s. Now I look around and see that 90% of government administration deserves to be hanged on the street lamps, together with 99.9% of our beloved Militia. All I want is some responsibility for them. Maybe not even cutting trees for life, but at least the prohibition to get government jobs again.
So you'd want to suffer again?! I fail to understand the methodology in this. How can you praise an ignorant leader who decimated every "satellite" country he had control of? I'm glad Hungary tried in 1956. He raped and plundered every country of vital resources. HE had all of the money, not the working person.
A "USSR" would crumble within itself in today's environment. It wouldn't last, regardless of the quantity of pictures of a man to me, who IS and WAS worse than Hitler. Hitler was no slouch. But, to sit there and defend him, makes me think you are associated somehow in the realm of "ultranationalism". The guy was a sick individual like Hitler. He killed so many of his countrymen, soldier casulties notwithstanding. Your logic escapes me and I'm sure, others.
Good luck with life.
Karaya2
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Henry Ford was as anti-semetic as they came. He'd never make it. Wonder why Hitler had his portrait behind his desk?
Karaya2
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Audey Murphy would make me proud to honor with a day.
lazs
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Boroda, do you want to start with the Third Partition of Poland?
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While you're deciding if you truly want to delve into who stole who's land first.....
You can have some fun with this:
It’s absolutely true that the Soviet Union played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany in WW2. For this, for the courage displayed and the suffering endured, the armed forces of the USSR might be admired.
However, for me, this admiration must be counterbalanced against the other deeds of the Soviet regime.
In the famine of 1921 alone, estimates are that some five million Russians perished. Most authorities place the total loss of Russian life for the years 1914 to 1922, the period of war and civil war, foreign intervention, drought and famine at 20 million. In addition, industrial production and capacity were driven back to levels existing prior to 1900.
This is, after all, the same country that deliberately starved about 6 million of its own Ukrainian population in 1932-33.
This is, after all the same regime that imprisoned many of its own population in the Gulag Archipelago ~1936-1938 with grim results. How many of those died?
http://www.gendercide.org/case_stalin.html
“In the original version of his book The Great Terror, Robert Conquest gave the following estimates of those arrested, executed, and incarcerated during the height of the Purge:
Arrests, 1937-1938 - about 7 million
Executed - about 1 million
Died in camps - about 2 million
In prison, late 1938 - about 1 million
In camps, late 1938 - about 8 million
Conquest concluded that "not more than 10 percent of those then in camp survived." Updating his figures in the late 1980’s based on recently-released archival sources, he increased the number of "arrests" to 8 million, but reduced the number in camps to "7 million, or even a little less." This would give a total death toll for the main Purge period of just under ten million people. About 98 percent of the dead (Gendercide Watch's calculation) were male.”
Can you say “Russian Holocaust”?
This is, after all, the same regime that signed a mutual non-aggression treaty with Nazi Germany on August 23, 1939, the Molotov- Ribbentrop Treaty.
http://www.humboldt.edu/~rescuers/book/Makuch/molrib.html
“Molotov Ribbentrop Treaty
On August 23, 1939 Hitler and Stalin signed a non-aggression pact, called the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty. Secret protocols of the treaty defined the territorial spheres of influence Germany and Russia would have after a successful invasion of Poland. Hitler had been creating justifications and laying plans for such an invasion since April.
According to the agreement, Russia would have control over Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, while Germany would gain control over Lithuania and Danzig. Poland would be partitioned into three major areas. The Warthland area, bordering Germany would be annexed outright to the German Reich, and all non-German inhabitants expelled to the east. Over 77,000 square miles of eastern Polish lands, with a population of over thirteen million would become Russian territory. The central area would become a German protectorate, named the General Government, governed by a German civil authority.
On September 1,1939 Hitler's forces invaded Poland from the west. According to plan, Soviet troops invaded Polish territory from the east on September 17. Poland surrendered on September 27. The next day Poland was partitioned according to the treaty's scheme, ending a brief twenty year period as an independent nation. “
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When the Soviet Union invaded Poland there were in effect the following treaties and agreements between the governments of Poland and the Soviet Union:
The Peace Treaty between Poland, Russia and the Ukraine signed in Riga, on March 18, 1921, by which the Eastern frontiers of Poland were defined.
The Protocol between Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Rumania and the USSR regarding renunciation of war as an instrument of national policy, signed in Moscow on February 9, 1929.
The Non-Aggression Pact between Poland and the USSR signed in Moscow on July 25, 1932.
The Protocol signed in Moscow on May 5, 1934 between Poland and the USSR, extending until December 31, 1945, the Non-Aggression Pact of July 25, 1932.
The Convention for the Definition of Aggression signed in London on July 3, 1933.
Fine Fellows, don’t you think? Trustworthy, admirable, worthy of adulation.
Wait, don’t decide yet…there’s more “good deeds” to recount before we get to the sacrifice of the Soviet Union in fighting the Germans.
http://members.spree.com/ojoronen/eastbalt.htm
“On June 17th and 18th of 1940, hundreds of thousands of Red Army troops crossed the frontiers and took over the Baltic States.
Between July 14th and July 17th, "elections" were held in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Stalin had so many Baltic Communists killed in purges in 1936 and 1937 that he had trouble finding candidates. However, the Communist majorities were 92.8%, 97.8% and 99.19% respectively. Finally on August 5th, the Supreme Soviet very generously agreed to admit the three republics as constituent members of the USSR In this way three independent, prosperous and civilized countries vanished from the map of Europe.
Stalin was now in a position to implement 0RDER N 0. 001223. During the first year of Soviet occupation of Estonia more than 60,000 persons were killed or deported (on the night of June 13-14, 1941 more than 10,000 people were removed in a mass deportation). During 1941-1944 the Nazis occupied Estonia.
Before the Soviets returned in 1944, over 60,000 Estonians managed to escape from the country. In 1945-1946 Stalin deported another 20,000 people. On March 24-27, 1949, 70,000 more persons were deported.
These were mainly farmers who resisted collectivization.
In Lithuania, on the night of June 14-15, 1941, 30,455 members of the Lithuanian intelligentsia (national guard, civil servants etc.) were deported to Siberia. When the Germans advanced in 1941, Stalin had the approximately 5,000 political prisoners still held in Lithuanian jails executed. When the Nazis took over, approximately 170,000 Jews were exterminated. Before the Soviets returned in 1944, approximately 80,000 Lithuanians managed to escape, but 60,000 were deported to Siberia. In 1945 - 1946 approximately 145,000 Lithuanians were deported. Another 60,O00 were deported in March of 1949 because of collectivization.
During the Winter War the Finns lost 25,000 people fighting the Soviet Union. If they had given in to the Soviet demands, like the three other Baltic States, the chances are that they would have had over 400,000 people killed. It seems that they made the right decision, and at the same time saved the N K V D officers a lot of work.”
Wait! Don’t form an opinion yet! There’s more before the Soviets resist the evil Germans!
Remember Poland? There was a place called Kaytn Forest….
http://members.spree.com/ojoronen/eastbalt.htm
“Fifteen thousand Polish prisoners of war were taken illegally to the Soviet Union and kept in three camps, Kozielsk, Starobielsk and Ostashkov. Many of these people were officers. There were also many reserve officers consisting of University professors, surgeons, engineers, lawyers, teachers, journalists, etc…
When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941, the Soviets suffered several military defeats. Their attitude towards the western allies and to Poland therefore changed. A Polish-Soviet treaty was signed in July of 1941 and the organization of a Polish Army in the Soviet Union was immediately begun. A thorough search was made for all Polish prisoners, but about 14,500 could not be found. They were not found until several of them were found by the Germans in mass graves at Katyn, near Smolensk, in April 1943….
The International Commission consisted of doctors from twelve different countries. The Findings were that 4,145 bodies were found in eight mass graves. All of them had been shot in the back of the head. The bodies still had on them personal belongings such as diaries, letters, newspapers, and other items all indicating that the crime took place in the second half of March or in April 1940. The evidence was overwhelming that it had been carried out by the NKVD under direct instructions from Moscow….
All the bodies found at Katyn were of people who came from the camp of Kozielsk. But what happened to the 10,000 or so other prisoners from the other two camps? There is no solid evidence, i.e. no bodies were found, but the inmates of the camp at Starobielsk are believed to have been taken to a place near Kharkov and murdered. The inmates from the camp of Ostashkov are believed to have been taken to the White Sea, put aboard two barges, towed out to sea, and the barges sunk.
Altogether the Soviets arrested 250,000 Polish soldiers. When the NKVD moved into Poland, using their usual methods, an estimated 1,500,000 Poles were deported, and within two years 270,000 were dead.”
Want a bit more? This is the same regime that aided the hated Nazis right up until the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.
http://members.spree.com/ojoronen/eastbalt.htm
“Probably Stalin's most successful propaganda coup of all was the propagation of the myth that Soviet territorial acquisitions in 1939 were designed to establish a forward strategic line in case of a German attack. This tale has received wide acceptance, but eighteen months later when Hitler launched his invasion, virtually nothing had been accomplished in the way of fortifications, defensive lines or military airfields to exploit ground gained by the Nazi-Soviet Pact. In fact, the national armies of Finland, Romania and the Baltic States would have protected Stalin's flanks. As it was, Finland and Romania were turned into effective allies of the Germans, and the Baltic States provided Hitler with excellent troops.
Hitler gained a great deal from the pact. Provision was made for the supply from Russia of a million tons of grain for cattle, 900,000 tons of mineral oil, 100,000 tons of cotton, 500,000 tons of phosphates, 100,000 tons of chrome ore, 500,000 tons of iron ore, 300,000 tons of scrap iron and pig iron, and numerous other commodities vital to the German war effort.
While Hitler was fighting Britain and France, the Soviet Union was supplying him with his raw materials. Not only that , but they were helping Hitler to break Britain's blockade by supplying rubber and other essential supplies by transporting them on the Trans-Siberian Railway. It is interesting to note that while Stalin was supplying Hitler with thousands of tons of grain, his own people were starving.
While the Soviet Union held back from joining Germany as a belligerent, she furnished Germany with military co-operation far beyond that which the United States was giving Britain at that time. The German navy was allowed facilities at Murmansk on a scale which contrasts favorably in many ways with restrictions placed on Allied use of the same port between 1941 and 1945.
The German liner "Bremen" found refuge there, as did a succession of blockade-breaking vessels; and measures violating international law were adopted by the Soviet authorities to allow the Germans to escape with a captured American merchant ship, "City of Flint".
German auxiliary cruisers were equipped at Murmansk for raids on British shipping.
More than this, the Soviets actually allowed Germany her own naval base on Soviet soil near Murmansk. It proved to be a valuable base for U-Boats operating in the North Sea, and played an important role helping supply Hitler's invasion of Norway. The Soviets helped a German raiding cruiser, "Schiff 45", to make her way through the ice around Siberia to the Pacific, where she sank and captured 64,000 tons of allied shipping. In this and other ways the Soviet Government lent enormous assistance to the otherwise extremely vulnerable German Navy.”
Of course, this is also the same regime that signed the 13 April 1941 Soviet-Japanese non-aggression pact. Perhaps the Japanese should have talked to the Poles first?
Just in time though, because on June 22, the “two thieves” fell out. Hitler’s Germany turned upon Stalin’s Soviet Union and the Soviets glorious chance to stop helping and start fighting the Germans finally arrived.
Eventually, the Soviets decisively beat the Germans.
When it was all over, this is the same regime that Poland, Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria came to know so well. But that’s another story.
Glorify who you will. Admire who you will. If this Regime is heroic to you, so be it.
Perhaps you can ignore the true nature of that Regime simply because when the “two thieves” finally had a falling out, one set of thieves and murderers helped defeat the other set of thieves and murderers that started the Second World War.
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Originally posted by Toad
Boroda, do you want to start with the Third Partition of Poland?
International borders in Europe are guaranteed by Helsinki Act of 1975.
AFAIK the only undefined borders in Europe are between Russia and Estonia and on Cyprus.
Toad, as many educated Russians I share a "guilt complex" towards Poland, so your picking on me is annoying. My Grandfather, the one who was an Imperial dragoon officer, graduated from Warsaw univercity in 1914. You want to call him an occupant? BTW, he spoke Polish perfectly.
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You're the one talking about 1920...... now it's 1975?
IIRC, the Third Partition of Poland, with Catherine acting for Russia is where this little "who owns what" argument starts in that part of the world.
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Toad, skip the partitions. Different time, different issues. Simply a question of political opportunism. Germany and Austria were just as guilty.
As for the war of 1920... it started bit earlier. Poland before partitions of 1772 ( first partition ) encompased better part of today's Bialorus, Ukraine and Lithuenia. After WWI we wanted it back and were going to take it, whether everyone liked it or not.
What was forgotten was the fact that before 1772 poland ruled those areas ( with exception of Lithuenia ) on the master/slave level and slaves weren't quite ready to come back to the old situation. ( i think there has been a uprising against poland in ukraine every 3 years from 1500 to 1772 )
Whether CCCP stepped in with excuse or simply used it as an excuse for its own purpose is a question of persepctive. Ukrainians didn't like CCCP any better then they did Poland. ( still don't )
One thing is for sure. Poland of 1920 sure as hell wasn't very innocent.