Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on March 06, 2003, 09:14:40 PM
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Your CIA article deals solely with Halabja.
The Human Rights Watch 13 Chapter report (did you even read it?) details an Iraqi program of genocide against Iraqi Kurds that went on for years and killed between 100,000 (Saddam's executioners estimate) and 180,000 Kurds (Estimate from the Kurds themselves).
The genocide happened. Again, the evidence doesn't fit your argument so you ignore it.
So what's your position on "he kills his own people" now?
Here's a bit more to help you decide. From a notably biased source, Amnesty International (already gave you the Human Rights Watch link in the other thread):
AI REPORT 1998: Iraq (http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aireport/ar98/mde14.htm)
The fate of thousands of people who “disappeared” in previous years remained unknown. They included hundreds of suspected members of opposition groups and their relatives who were arrested when Iraqi government and KDP forces took control of Arbil in August 1996; thousands of Shi'a Muslims arrested in the aftermath of the March 1991 uprising; more than 600 Kuwaiti and other nationals arrested by Iraqi forces during the occupation of Kuwait in 1990 and 1991 and believed to be held in Iraq; an estimated 100,000 Kurdish civilians who “disappeared” in 1988 in the so-called “Operation Anfal”; and thousands of Shi'a Muslim Arabs and Feily Kurds who were arrested on the basis of their Iranian descent during the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war (see previous Amnesty International Reports).
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Let's get Turks next !!!!
http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2000web.nsf/58f967f150817f77802568f500617d07/2e50a33b90820418802568f200552979!OpenDocument
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Yeah! That article says they killed 10 people! Not much compared to 100,000+ but hey.
Lead the charge; I've no misplaced love for the Turks.
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..And while you're at it nuke Texas too :)
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Can't nuke Texas. They don't engage in genocide. :D
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So, anyway 10Bears, what do you think about this Anfal operation? Between 180,000 and 100,000 killed... women and children and all.
Zebb say anything about this?
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Naww Staga, ya wouldn't want to nuke Tayxus... where'd you think AH comes from anyhow? (Plus we gots some of them nukes ourselfs ya know..) ;)
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Originally posted by Toad
So, anyway 10Bears, what do you think about this Anfal operation? Between 180,000 and 100,000 killed... women and children and all.
It didn't seem to bother Reagan much when it was happening.
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Apparently it doesn't bother 10Bears, Blix, Bounder, Ping, Straffo or a lot of other folks either. Go figure.
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Apparently it doesn't bother 10Bears, Blix, Bounder, Ping, Straffo or a lot of other folks either. Go figure.
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No surprize is it.
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When 1.5 million people were standing in the rain just across the border of Kosovo.. where were you Toad?
It's amazing how some of you do a complete 180 in your attitudes .. now it's all about how we gotta save the poor kurrrrrrrrds.. unless of course Turkey accepts our thirty billion dollar bribe then diddly the kurds.. The Turks had designs on northern Iraq that was part of the deal.. No way they were going to allow any sort of Kurdish state. Still won't.. that's all BS.
I suppose the Republicans will want to arm the Kurds.. you know, so they can protect themselfs from the Turks..
BTW how's that drug war going in Afghanistan? and (which side are we on?)
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Originally posted by Toad
Apparently it doesn't bother 10Bears, Blix, Bounder, Ping, Straffo or a lot of other folks either. Go figure.
When I sleep I cannot post.
I already made my position clear : Sadam is a dictator and we should get ride of him.
The way choosen by the Bus administration is IMO the wrong way.
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I don't think anyone denies Saddam is a genocidal maniac, so I'm not sure what your point is?
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Its amazing that you lump me in that catagory...where have I said I do not care?
I have stated in previous posts that I believe NK to be more of a threat to The US than Iraq. That is Certainly NOT critical of US involvement in the DMZ.
I have stated that Saddam is a The worst sort of Individual and should be dead. Where do you find me saying that Its OK he is doing these things.
Toad You seem to putting thoughts and words into my own mouth. Get Your diddlying Facts straight before you accuse people of things.
I simply believe that your Government should Follow International Law instead of becoming a rogue vigilante Nation.
And as was pointed out, Your previous Administrations had no problem in overlooking those minor Glitches in Human Rights while they allied themselves with those murderous Bastards.
I will say it again. Your allies in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia are more of a threat to America than Iraq is.
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78947
Hortlund said Who said that? That is one of the positive consequences of taking out Saddam...there are hundreds of other positive consequences too. There is not one positive consequence of leaving him in power though.
My reply was:Hortlund, this may surprise you but, you are correct. However there is even more to lose by going in without due caution.
#1 priority: War against terrorism
By Unilaterally going in on Saddam you will weaken that #1 objective.
Terrorism is not a State, it is a shadowy entity with no borders. By acting rashly, 1000's more of these shadowy figures will emerge due to an act of aggression.
And please note that I said DUE CAUTION.
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Now I'm just trying to figure out why I got sucked into this thread...
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Not on purpose Hortlund dear. Just giving the context on why I responded the way I did in the quote.
It was not negative on you at all.
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Ah, 10Bears this is all about spin remember?
From the "yanks" thread, where you were in denial about Hussein's genocide against the Kurds:
Toad: 3. has engaged in genocide against the Kurdish minority
10 Bears: "Another spin point refuted by the CIA!.. Kurds got caught in crossfire of battle btwn Iraq and Iran."
Your reply is obviouslyl incorrect and unresearched in light of the Anfal operation. In short, once again, you didn't know what you were talking about when you posted.
Just wanted to see if you'd still defend your view in light of the overwhelming evidence contrary to your position.
But I see you've just avoided the subject once again.
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Kosovo? I'm afraid that's a reference that's a bit too obscure in its present state. Want to add a little detail?
Again, you misunderstand or try to put words into someone's mouth. The discussion was about Hussein, not Kurds. The Kurdish example was used to make a point about Hussein and it does. It makes a forceful point for those who are students of history. Hussein engaged in genocide against the Kurds; you're quote in the other thread indicates you believe that didn't happen. What do you say now, having read the Human Rights Watch detailed report?
As an aside, I think you misunderstand the deal with Turkey as well. A Northern Front with US troops is helpful against Hussein, but it also stabilizes and area where enmity between Turks and Kurds is well known. The presence of US troops there is a benefit in that respect. So both the Turks and the Kurds gain from it.
I think the "war" in Afghanistan is going pretty well. The capture of the latest Al Qaeda leader is further endorsement. Beyond that, the Afghan starvation situation is vastly improved, their women actually have some rights, their schools are reopening and their soccer stadium isn't used to execute philandering husbands and "loose women". Compared to life under the Taliban, things are looking pretty good for the Afghans. That must really bother you, eh? Weren't you one of the ones predicting 10 years of hard fighting before we were run out of there?
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The point is that everyone seems to agree that Hussein is one genuine evil guy. Genocide, WMD, torture, personally murdering subordinates, using torture of children to get parents to comply.
Oh, yes........ we ALL agree. A thoroughly bad man. Numerous comparisons to the world's favorite example of a thoroughly bad man, Hitler.
Yet when it comes time for the world to get off it's duff and DO something about Hussein, and I suggest that after 12 years and 100,000's of his citizens murdered it is NOW time, the Security Council dithers and bickers and does NOTHING........ while around the world, protesters march against the evil US and its evil leader Bush.
Of course, most if not all of the protesters are solemnly aware of the mistakes made in appeasing Hitler, that thoroughly bad man, in the 1930's. They and their governements have vowed never to be so blind again to the nature of a thoroughly bad man.
Of course, most if not all of the protesters firmly convinced the US drug its feet getting into WW2 to fight against a thoroughly bad man.
The irony is sometimes too much.
Look, the guy's a POS. For the health of the world community, for the health of his neighbors, for the health of his own citizens, it's time for the responsible nations to remove him....... just like they should have done with Hitler long before he invaded Poland.......
The US and its allies are ready to do that right now. So instead of banging the US, why aren't all of you folks writing your governments and saying "This is a thoroughly bad man in the mold of Hitler. It's the world's responsibility to get him out of there before he REALLY does damage. Give the US and its allies the OK to do so."
And then let the UN and the world community help the Iraqis establish a representative government.
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2. Don't piss Toad off.
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Anyone got Toad's bosses phone number?
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That begs the question Hang....
What's number one? :)
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It's the same as my number :D
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1. Don't piss off HTC.
(one must be pragmatic. ;))