Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GtoRA2 on March 07, 2003, 03:28:14 PM
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I am not trying to flame France, I would just like to know what they did to help.
I know about the French resistance.
I know the Vichy French where the first people we fought in the our European campaign and we lost over 2000 British and U.S soldiers and sailors. In the same time period they did not kill a German.
They had troops that fought after D-day? Yes? how so?
Was there a French SS unit?
What about a French RAF? or Air unit after France fell?
Didn't French Indochina go over to the axis?
Where am I wrong and right here? Fill me in, I want to know the truth about France and WW2 instead of all the bashing.
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Read some books dude.
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if your looking for facts on these boards then i have some russian and chinese troops stationed in iraq for you.
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The French chicks boned all the German invaders, and ironically, in defeat, made via American victory, the locals shaved the skanks heads, not their armpits.
Now you tell me you can do without wine if that's all they could make of that fukup WWII stuff in a pinch.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
if your looking for facts on these boards then i have some russian and chinese troops stationed in iraq for you.
Well, you sure deserve that sig line of yours. Why the **** are you posting here at all if all you do is post deliberate lies?
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because we all post "facts" that support our viewpoints. and all of our viewpoints are wrong.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
because we all post "facts" that support our viewpoints. and all of our viewpoints are wrong.
Now that is sig material!
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Dude like I have lots of books and read lots to man, but like dude, you know this is a discussian forum, you know?
So I figured, maybe some people here might like to talk about france instead of bashing it, hell I am sure all the people who post on stuff here have read books on it right dude?
Dude! Or maybe you take issue with what I wrote? Like what dude?
:D
Honestly, I would rather spend my time not reading about France though, I like to read about winners! :)
LOL ok, I just couldn't resist.
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Vichy-French Indochina signed a deal with japan.. supported japanese efforts in indochina, provided port facilities, material support and most disgustingly, handed over british and american aircrews and escaped POWS outta burma to the japanese. most were executed after torture.
Vichy-French forces in north africa had to be subdued by force. Free French Forces in North Africa had a very undistingushed combat carreer. The Free French Generals were all angling for control of France after the war, result, nobody trusted them. I believe i read somewhere that Vichy French admirals scuttled their ships rather than let them fall into allied hands. seems the french have no more trouble betraying france than they do anybody else.
"i'd rather have 2 german divisions in front of me than one free french battalion behind me" ...Patton
It's intresting to note that France was held by the germans with little effort, and co-operated with some enthusiasim when they came looking for concentration camp candidates... and then, after the germans were defeated, virtually every frenchman claimed to be 'in the resistance'.
Vie La France!
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33rd Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne
Not a single unit but a series of succeeding French collaborationist volunteer units that fought in the German Army and later the Waffen-SS. The first unit was the LVF, or "Légion des Voluntaires Français," followed by La Legion Tricolore, which existed for just 6 months in 1942, both units participating in antipartisan sweeps in the occupied Soviet Union. By late 1943, the remaining French volunteers were inducted into the Waffen-SS Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Regiment, later upgraded to an Assault brigade.
Though upgraded to divisional status in February 1945, this unit of French volunteers was rather understrength. Charlemagne fought against the Soviets in Poland and some remnants of the division fought bravely in the April 1945 Battle of Berlin.
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May - June 1940: Germans invade & overrun France.
June 24: French sign Armistice & capitualte to Germany.
June 1941: June 22: Germany invades th Soviet Union.
July 1941: July 7: Leaders of various French right-wing parties meet at the Hotel Majestic in Paris to discuss the German invasion of the Soviet Union. The meeting participants support the German invasion, and form the organization Légion des Voluntaires Français contre les Bolchévisme (LVF). The LVF legion volunteers to serve in the German Army to fight in the Soviet Union; Germany gladly accepts the offer.
August 1941: 13,400 Frenchmen volunteer for the LVF, but only 5,800 are deemed acceptable. The volunteers can wear French Army uniform while stationed in France, but must wear German uniforms while outside France.
Aug 20: French Col. Roger Labonne is appointed CO (commanding officer) of the LVF.
Aug 27: LVF receives its first color standard in a ceremony at Versailles.
September 1941: Sept 4: First 828 LVF volunteers leave France for the German Army training camp in Debica, Poland. Meanwhile, a strange incident occurs back in France at the induction ceremony for French volunteers at the Borgnis-Desborde barracks at Versailles. During the inauguration ceremony, a French volunteer fires on the Vichy leaders in the reviewing stand; Pierre Laval wounded.
October 1941: LVF strength: 2,271 men, 181 officers, plus a German staff of 35 for liason duties forming a 2 battalion unit. LVF renamed "Reinforced Infantry Regiment 638" (under CO Colonerl Roger Labonne?)
November 1941: Reinforced Infantry Regiment 638 (LVF) is sent to the Moscow front to become part of the 7th Infantry Division. The Regiment is immediately battered both by the onset of Russian winter weather and Soviet counterattacks. The LVF loses half of its effective stength.
December 1941: Regiment 638 receives another contingent of 1,400 volunteers, which is sent to training camp Debica to form a third battalion.
January 1942: LVF's II Battalion wiped out in the Soviet winter counteroffensive.
March 1942: LVF CO Labonne relieved of command; the unit is pulled off the front lines. I Battilion CO is a Major Lacroix; III Battalion Co is a Major Demessine.
May 1942: The LVF participates in anti-partisan operations behild the Russian front possibly as subcomponents of several security battalions, and continues to do so for the following year.
June 1942: LVF III Battalion suffers heavy casualties in anti-partisan operations, Volost.
LVF I Battalion serves as part of the 186th Security Division near Smolensk. June 28: French collaborationst leader Pierre Laval appoints Raymond Lachal as leader of the La Légion Tricolore, a unit designed to be a successor to the LVF. Legionairres would wear French uniforms, earn French decorations, and La Légion Tricolore would be financied by the Vichy French Ministry of War. Unlike the LVF, which was primarily an infantry formation, La Légion Tricolore will be a combined-arms unit. The Legion CO is General Galy.
July 1942: July 12: Joseph Darnard, Vichy French Inspector General of Legionarirre troops, states in a ceremony that La Légion Tricolore will be allowed to serve "on the side of the Axis in Europe and Africa."
August 1942: August 28: Ceremony to formally inaugurate La Légion Tricolore; dignitaries at the ceremony include Vichy French Admiral Darlan and Otto Abetz, the German Ambassador to France.
October 1942: 638th Infantry Regiment (LVF) participates in antipartisan sweeps, Beresino-Cerven.
December 1942: Dec 28: Hitler, unimpressed with the French-sponsored La Légion Tricolore, orders the unit dissolved. RFSS Himmler suggests to Hitler the formation of a Waffen-SS French volunteer unit, to be titled "Gobineau" or "Charlemagne."
January 1943: A Waffen-SS unit recruiting office set up in Paris.
March - May 1943: anti-partisan operations as scattered battalions...(?)
June 1943: LVF I & III Battalion brought together under the 286th Security Division; II Battalion reconstituted. LVF CO is now Col. Eduard Pruaud, a former French Foreign Legion officer.
July 1943: July 23: Vichy France Prime Minister Laval authorized the enrollment of French volunteers into the SS, provided that they a) are not used on French territory b) are not used against French units c) are disarmed when demobilized. Vichy Propaganda Minister Paul Marion sets up the "Committee of Friends of the Waffen-SS" to promote enlistment.
August 1943: French Volunteer Legion passes to Waffen-SS command as "Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Regiment." However, this date is confusing, for some sources state the LVF still existed as a separate unit until Sept. 1944. (see below)
Aug 27: Ceremony to honor the 2nd anniversary of the LVF at the Hotel des Invalides in Paris. The Vichy French Secretary of State, General Bridoux, presents the LVF with a new color standard.
November 1943: 30 French officers; 100 NCO sent to Germany for officer training in Waffen-SS schools (Bad Tölz for the officers, Posen for the NCO's).
January 1944: Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Regiment reformed; possibly front-line combat and anti-partisan operations, Soviet Union
February 1944: LVF in anti-partisan operations?
June 1944: June 22: Operation Bagration; the Soviet summer offensive in Byelorussia.Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Regiment in defensive actions; Russian front; Soviets site unit for valor
July 1944: Unit suffers heavy casualties; withdrawn to Bohemia-Moravia.
July 18th:becomes Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Sturmbrigade Charlemagne - the choice of honorary name was certainly unusual, for Himmler was known to have disliked the Emperor Charlemagne (he referred to him as "Charles the Frank") because he fought against the pagan Saxons, a tribe Himmler quite admired. Unit sent to report under 18.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division Horst Wessel in Galicia.
August 1944: August 10: heavy combat Sanok/Visloka in Carpathians Mts. of Hungary. 15 of 18 officers KIA, 130 men KIA, 660 WIA. Unit transfered to Schwarnegast, East Prussia.; 800 French volunteers sent to Alsace, France as SS-Freiwilligen Strumbrigade
September 1944: Franz.Gren.Inf.Reg.638 (LVF) offically disbanded and members are transferred into the SS Sturmbrigade. Unit rebuilt at Wildflecken, near Frankfurt-am-Main. More units amalgameted, including elements former brigade members, Milice Francaise policemen (2,500), Kriegsmarine volunteers (1,000), NSKK and 2,000 Org.Todt members. Total unit strength is less than 7,500 men. Unit renamed Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS Charlemagne (französische Nr.1)
Vichy French & other collaborators join the German retreat from France and set up a government-in-exile at Württemberg.
October - November 1944: training, Wildflecken, Germany
February 1945: Feb 2: Division formed in Wildflecken?, West Prussia? (accounts vary) from Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS Charlemagne Takes divisional #33 from recently destroyed 33rd Waffen-Kavallerie-Division der SS (ungarische Nr 3) . Unit's flak company deployed for air defense near Fulda; divisional strength 7,500, under "Division-Inspektor" Krukenberg.
Feb 17: Division leaves Wildflecken by rail for Pomerania
Feb 22: SS-Waffen-Grenadier-Regiment 57 deparks Settin; attacked by Soviet planes.
Feb 25th: transferrred to Hammerstein, Pomerania into midst of massive Soviet attack (2 tank corps and 10 divisions - eek!). Division split into three groups: The first with CO Krukenberg, fights to the Baltic coast and is evacuated to Denmark; eventually sent to refit at Neustrelitz in Mecklenberg. The second and third groups, one under Edgar Puaud with the new rank of Waffen-Oberführer, are annihiliated.
Feb 26: Division's Honor Guard company supposedly destroys 18 Soviet tanks at Elsenau; Soviet troops occupy Hammerstein
Feb 28: Division remmnants retreat 50 miles to Belgard
March 1945: Division reforming at Mecklenberg; only 1,100 men of division remain.
March 3: Defensive positions Körlin
March 4: Soviets occupy Körlin, encircle division
March 6: French survivors break out of Soviet ring
March 25: circa 2,000 Charlemagne survivors (plus possibly some barrel-bottom replacements) regroup at Neusterlitz to reform division
March 29: 1,200 Charlemagne troops under Swiss Obersturmbannführer Hersche sent to Wildflecken in southern Germany to reform division
April 1945: Divisions-Inspektor SS-Brif.Dr.Krukenberg releases 400 French volunteers from service. An additional 400 men are not willing to fight and are assigned to a construction batallion (baubattalion) under SS-Sturmbannführer Boudet-Gheusi. Division's regiments are downgraded as "Sturmbattalions." Remmnants of Regt. 58 (300 men) becomes "Kampfbattalion 58"
April 23: Remainder of division sent to fight in the Battle of Berlin as "Sturmbattalion Charlemagne" or "Kampfgruppe Charlemagne" under 57th Regt. CO Fenet (a.k.a. Fernet); they earn a renowned reputation as tank killers and launch multiple counterattacks on Soviet forces at Tempelhof and Hasenheide, possibly supported by Schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 503.
April 25: Kampfbattalion 58 sent to Oder front, attached to 7th Luftland division? quickly withdraws west and surrenders to the British.
May 1945: May 2nd: 30 French survivors of division surrender to Soviets near the Potsdamer railway station; contruction battalion survivors manage to surrender to British forces. several unit members executed by French after the war
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:D
SOB
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So far some of this is interesting.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Honestly, I would rather spend my time not reading about France though, I like to read about winners! :)
So basically you're just too lazy to do some research and form your own opinion, so you'd like someone to spoon-feed you theirs? Why didn't you just come right out and say so?
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Originally posted by Batz
33rd Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne
Not a single unit but a series of succeeding French collaborationist volunteer units that fought in the German Army and later the Waffen-SS. The first unit was the LVF, or "Légion des Voluntaires Français," followed by La Legion Tricolore, which existed for just 6 months in 1942, both units participating in antipartisan sweeps in the occupied Soviet Union. By late 1943, the remaining French volunteers were inducted into the Waffen-SS Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Regiment, later upgraded to an Assault brigade.
Though upgraded to divisional status in February 1945, this unit of French volunteers was rather understrength. Charlemagne fought against the Soviets in Poland and some remnants of the division fought bravely in the April 1945 Battle of Berlin.
An interesting footnote is that after the Legion was sent to Russia in '44, the unit obtained an excellent combat record. Often the Russians thought they were fighting two French divisions instead of half a battalion.
In Berlin the 500 who were left fought extremely well, 3 soldiers winning the Knight's Cross.
Tronsky
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Hey, SOB.. would ya spare an old mate a swig? Pass that thing over. Let's move our chairs a bit so the light from the bonfire isn't right in our eyes when the play begins.
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Originally posted by SOB
:D
SOB
Honestly what could I say ?
Batz posted a combat reccord of one of our greatest shame.
Hangtime pissed me again showing is complete lack of respect for the fallen and showed again that being a vet don't preserve you to be a complete bellybutton hole.
So all is fine and normal.
Show must go on.
PS : didn't seen any mention of the Normandie-Niemen ,Sqd Alsace ,Ile de France 1 division Blindée ,serment de Kouffra,Leclerc ...
I guess it's normal.
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Booooo! The least you could do is rebut with some of the utterly retarded things that the US Military has accomplished in the past. Surely there can't be a lack of material. :)
SOB
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tough toejam, froggie.
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I only answered this question
Was there a French SS unit?
Now if someone else wants to post about allied french units go ahead.
Country/Ethnicity / Estimated # of volunteers /SS Units
Albanian / 3,000 / 21st SS Division
Belgian: Flemish / 23,000 / 5th SS Div., 27th SS Div.
Belgium: Walloon / 15,000 / 5th SS Div., 28th SS Div.
British Commonwealth (English) / 50 / British Freikorps
Bulgaria / 200-1,000? / Bulgarisches Reg.
Croatia (includes Bosnian Muslims) / 30,000 / 7th SS Div., 13th SS Div., 23rd SS Div.
Denmark / 10,000 / Freikorps Danemark, / 11th SS Div.
Indian / 3,500 / Volunteer Leg.
Estonia / 20,000 / 20th SS Div.
Finland / 1,000 / Volunteer Bat.
Hungarians / 15,000? / 25th SS Div., 26th SS Div.,33rd SS Div.
Latvia / 39,000 / 15th SS Div., 19th SS Div.
Netherlands / 50,000 / 23rd SS Div., 34th SS Div.
Norway / 6,000 / 5th SS Div., 6th SS Div., 11th SS Div., Volunteer Leg.
France / 8,000 / 33rd SS Div.
Italy / 20,000 / 29th SS (Italian)
Poland/Ukraine / 25,000 / 14th SS Div.
Russian (Belorussia) / 12,000 / 29th SS Div., 30th SS Div.
Russian (Cossak) / 40,000 / XV SS Kosaken-Kavallerie-Korps
Russian (Turkic) / 8,000 / Ostürkische SS , Tatarishe SS
Rumania / 3,000? / Waffen-Grenadierregiment der SS (rumänisches 1)
Serbia / 15,000 / Volunteer Corps
Spain / 200 - 1,000? / Spanische-Freiwilligen-Kompanie der SS 101
Sweden, Switzerland & Luxemburg / 3,000? / 5th SS Div., 11th SS Div.
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Hang: How much Research did you put into that last post of yours :)
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Originally posted by straffo
PS : didn't seen any mention of the Normandie-Niemen ,Sqd Alsace ,Ile de France 1 division Blindée ,serment de Kouffra,Leclerc ...
I can honestly say I know zero about any of those units with the exception of Normandie-Niemen.
I'd be interested to hear more about them Straffo.
Tronsky
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Don't stop short there Batz. I'd like to know how many Americans went and fought for the Germans.
I'll wager that more Frenchmen fought for the Allies than for the Germans. From the Battle of Britain onwards...
Hangtime - French naval ships were blown out of the water in a sneak attack by the Royal Navy. If French captains did scuttle there ships, it was to avoid letting them fall into German hands.
You're just ranting mate - and are being very disrespectful to the Frenchmen and women who died fighting for their country after it fell, either in open warfare or as guerillaros.
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Originally posted by SOB
Booooo! The least you could do is rebut with some of the utterly retarded things that the US Military has accomplished in the past. Surely there can't be a lack of material. :)
SOB
I would have better post some combat record of french troop instead of bashing the US .
French and US have a lot of black period in their history But only what you will do count otherwise I'll spend my time bashing the German or the Brit...
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I am not trying to flame France, I would just like to know what they did to help. [/B]
I don't buy that, GtoRa2.
Look in ya own backyard for some blindspots in history than come back and bash on other countries.
Regards Blitz
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Look in ya own backyard for some blindspots in history than come back and bash on other countries.
Well listen to the pot calling the kettle black.
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Those are SS units Dowding and no US citizens were in the SS unless you know something I dont.
Vichy France was allied will Germany so if you include the all those in the Vichy military as serving wiith the Germans then you can hardly conclude "more French served with the allies then Germany". I guess you would loose your wager.
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Originally posted by Batz
Sweden, Switzerland & Luxemburg / 3,000? / 5th SS Div., 11th SS Div.
For Sweden it should be 315, I doubt the other two had ~2500.
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Straffo if your .gov had supported the US in the Iraq issue, you would be dear friends and war heroes.
Same goes for every other goverment, so watch out who you disagree with
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I came across a listing of 5 American citizens who actually signed up in the SS. They were POWs I recall, except for one who deserted in the Middle East, made his way to Italy, then behind Axis lines. After the war this enterprising individual was tried and imprisoned for desertion, then released, then imprisoned on the treason charge. At least a couple of the others died in combat.
Vichy France was formally neutral, but tilted toward Germany. Churchill attacking the French Navy at Oran didnt help Vichy's attitude toward the British any. (That's also why some of the British troops landing on French territory in Operation Torch carried American flags.) When the Allies invaded North Africa, the Germans occupied all of Vichy, and the French fleet at Toulon scuttled itself to stay out of German hands. At this point, many of the Vichy troops in France deserted into the brush ("maquis") with their weapons, swelling the numbers and effectiveness of the resistance many times over.
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We've been 'ugly americans', 'decadent cowboys' and the 'great satans' to the world for the last 50 years.
France can bask in the disgust and ire of angry americans and I hope they enjoy the villification. Frankly, I see little in modern french diplomacy, politics or rehtoric for americans to be charmed with. I appreciate their assistance during our revolution, i would expect they appreciate the payback in two world wars and one marshall plan.
regardless, next time; the loser of the next european war can keep france.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
regardless, next time; the loser of the next european war can keep france.
Jeez, Hang... that would turn it into a no surrender, last man standing death match.
:D
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Jeez, Hang... that would turn it into a no surrender, last man standing death match.
europe should be so lucky.
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interesting about Indo-china...
I hate aand would personally mame-kill-destroy..the French-Vietamnes and Japanese.peopl eresposible .for there part in that toejam..
I have a special place for the people wjo tortured and killed our POWs...
I fukn hate them..spit
Love
BiGB
xoxo
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Long before America's war in Vietnam, General Claire Chennault's 14th Air Force conducted a savage war in the skies over French Indochina, as Vietnam was called during World War II. It was a battle fought largely without publicity, hidden in the shadows of more titanic struggles that captured the headlines of the war: Guadalcanal, Midway, El Alamein, Stalingrad, Normandy, or the Battle of the Bulge. By January 1945, as far as the American public was concerned, the life-and-death struggle in Indochina was literally reduced to funny pages in the strip, "Terry and the Pirates," which ironically credited the Navy for the fighting in the French colony.
The war in Indochina was made more dangerous and tragic by the actions of the Vichy French Indochinese colonial authorities who willingly aided the Japanese war effort militarily as well as economically. As part of a deliberate policy of collaboration with the Axis, the Vichy French government of Marshal Philippe Petain had allowed the Japanese to establish military bases in northern Indochina, or Tonkin, in September 1949, in order to attack the Nationalists in China. Vichy stood aside a year later, in July 1941, when the Japanese moved into southern Indochina.
Indochina's collaboration went even further. In March 1942, four airmen and an army engineer reached Tourane (item 1 on small insert map), now Do Nang, by launch from the Philippines. The four were turned over to the Japanese on the orders of Indochina's governor general, Vice Admiral Jean Decoux. Four of these men toiled for the rest of the war on the "Railroad of Death" in Thailand, made famous by Pierre Boulle's novel, Bridge Over the River Kwai. (Free French Lieutenant Boulle was himself one of Decoux's prisoners after he was captured trying to establish a resistance organization in the colony.) The fifth, a fighter pilot from the l6th Pursuit Squadron, eventually escaped and reached China safely the day the war ended. On May 20, 1942, a Flying Tiger was downed over Lao Kay, French Indochina (item 2 on small insert map). The pilot, Louis Bishop, too was surrendered on the admiral's orders to the Japanese for interrogation. Rumored to have been beheaded, Bishop instead was sent to POW camp in occupied China; he too managed to escape two years later. In June, two British soldiers escaped from a Japanese POW camp on the banks of the Saigon River and reached a French army camp. On Decoux's command, they were returned to the Japanese and beheaded. A year later, in April, 1943, a Dutch POW escaped from a Japanese ship anchored off Cape Saint Jacques and turned himself over to Vichy authorities, seeking their protection. He too was returned on Decoux's orders and executed.
Thereafter the Japanese demanded that all allied prisoners captured by Decoux's forces be surrendered on the spot without the formality of obtaining the admiral's agreement first. At the end of August 1943, enraged at the beginning of a bombing campaign in Tonkin by the 308th Bombardment Group based in China, Decoux accepted the Japanese demands and issued orders to his administrators and military commanders to surrender all captured non-Asiatics to the Japanese on the spot.
Martin Mickelson, 'A History of French Indochina'
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
interesting about Indo-china...
I hate aand would personally mame-kill-destroy..the French-Vietamnes and Japanese.peopl eresposible .for there part in that toejam..
I have a special place for the people wjo tortured and killed our POWs...
I fukn hate them..spit
Love
BiGB
xoxo
(doing Hank from "King Of The Hill") - Now you settle down there Boomhower! What with all the terrorist attacks we don't have time to relive your jungle combat days in Viet Nam! Here, have another beer.
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Tronski about the free french what I know won't fit in a standard post on this BBS and what I ignore won't fit either ...
as a sample :
- Groupe de chasse Normandie-niemen
Mission de guerre_(war mission): 5 240
Victoires_(victory) : 273 avions ennemis abattus, 36 probables, 45 endommagés (damaged)
Pilotes engagés_: 96
Pilotes tués ou disparus_(pilots KIA/MIA): 42
- Groupe de chasse Ile de France
Mission de guerre_: 6 029 - 8 410 heures de vol de guerre
Victoires_: 35 avions ennemis abattus, 6 probables, 35 endommagés
Pilotes engagés_: 78
Pilotes tués ou disparus_: 37
- Groupe de chasse Alsace
Mission de guerre_: 4 500
Victoires_: 32 avions ennemis abattus, 4 probables, 14 endommagés
Pilotes engagés_: 87
Pilotes tués ou disparus_: 21
- Groupe de bombardement Lorraine
Mission de guerre_: 3 500 dont 900 en Afrique et 260 en Angleterre
Heures de vol en opérations__: 5 200
3 000 tonnes de bombes larguées dont 500 en Afrique et 2 500 sur le front occidental
Victoires_: 2 avions ennemis abattus, 3 endommagés et un sous-marin coulé
Le groupe Lorraine a perdu 35 avions
113 morts, 41 blessés, 19 prisonniers
- Groupe de bombardement Bretagne
Mission de guerre_: 21
Heures de vol__: 4 504
Nombre d’équipages engagés_: 36
Pertes__: 5 tués, 3 prisonniers
I don't know were to point you for an english book all my reference are in french.
After a quick search I've found this (but I don't know if it's a good site)
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/France.htm
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Netherlands / 50,000 / 23rd SS Div., 34th SS Div.
U don't have to be from any specific country to be a collaborateur.
Coward or Hero.
50000 is a lot for such a small country i live we might have about 9 or 10 million citizens in that time.
But a bit understandable our national song "ben ik van duits bloed" means i am from german blood.
Many dutch thought the germans wouldn't be so hardish against us. Our language is very close to german and our Prins Bernard was even a german.
But he went to berlin in a mossie as a pathfinder for a bunch of lancaster destroying His homeland. :)
Many learned the hard lesson and went in resistance as well.
It would be wrong to judge on them coz off 50 000 collaborators.
What it's all about is ,it is not what the other will do but what would u do.
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It seems the Iraqs have learned well the lessons of the French in WW2.
Clickity (http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/news/page.cfm?objectid=12715943&method=full&siteid=106694)
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Totally discounting the cheap, gratuitous French slam that introduces it, that article is both sad and funny at the same time.
Makes you feel pretty sorry for the common Iraqi. Makes you smile at their eagerness to have a chance at starting over in a somewhat more "normal" society.
I don't think this will play out the way anyone expects; after all, the first casualty in war is the plan. It may well be mostly very easy. Undoubtedly there will be some parts that are very, very tough.
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Originally posted by Toad
Totally discounting the cheap, gratuitous French slam that introduces it, ........
hehe
:D
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Habu the one track broken record. You're posts remind me of listening to Barbara Streisand under water when she's suffering from a cold. Painful, repetitive and empty. Skip a little, brother.
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Originally posted by Dowding
You're posts remind me of listening to Barbara Streisand under water when she's suffering from a cold. Painful, repetitive and empty.
Amazingly enough, that is also a perfect description of what it is like to listen to blitz and straffo.
We should start some pro/anti-Israel thread soon Dowding and teach these tiresome kids how to have a proper argument.
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Why hortlund ,we both know how it will end :
Hortlund : let Tsahal kill all those Palestinian.
straffo : Israely should not behave like the Nazi
Hortlund : Settler are right because there was no Palestinian state before ans so they don't exist (at least on my map).
straffo : Israely should not behave like the Nazi
Hortlund : let Tsahal kill all those Palestinian.
straffo : Israely should not behave like the Nazi
Hortlund : Palestinian danced in the street the 9/11.
straffo : and so some Pakistani.
Hortlund : There is not palestinian state.
straffo : But the Palestinian still exist.
Hortlund : Isreal is right to make a complete blocus of the palestinian.
straffo : Israely should not behave like the Nazi
do you want more ?
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See the post directly above yours...
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Anyone who is stupid enough to make the statement in my sig does not deserve to be taken seriously.
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Anyone who is stupid enough to make a sig without even trying to get in the context it was posted does not deserve to be taken seriously
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Originally posted by straffo
Anyone who is stupid enough to make a sig without even trying to get in the context it was posted does not deserve to be taken seriously
LOL...this is simply amazing.
So straffo, do you remember when you ripped a quote from me on Oradour completely out of its context and put it in your sig?
But dont worry, I stopped taking you seriously weeks ago...
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yes I remind.
It just showed your usual answer when you have none : just ask another question or joke about it.
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Originally posted by straffo
yes I remind.
Anyone who is stupid enough to make a sig without even trying to get in the context it was posted does not deserve to be taken seriously.
I rest my case.
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Originally posted by straffo
Tronski about the free french what I know won't fit in a standard post on this BBS and what I ignore won't fit either ...
as a sample :
- Groupe de chasse Normandie-niemen
Mission de guerre_(war mission): 5 240
Victoires_(victory) : 273 avions ennemis abattus, 36 probables, 45 endommagés (damaged)
Pilotes engagés_: 96
Pilotes tués ou disparus_(pilots KIA/MIA): 42
- Groupe de chasse Ile de France
Mission de guerre_: 6 029 - 8 410 heures de vol de guerre
Victoires_: 35 avions ennemis abattus, 6 probables, 35 endommagés
Pilotes engagés_: 78
Pilotes tués ou disparus_: 37
- Groupe de chasse Alsace
Mission de guerre_: 4 500
Victoires_: 32 avions ennemis abattus, 4 probables, 14 endommagés
Pilotes engagés_: 87
Pilotes tués ou disparus_: 21
- Groupe de bombardement Lorraine
Mission de guerre_: 3 500 dont 900 en Afrique et 260 en Angleterre
Heures de vol en opérations__: 5 200
3 000 tonnes de bombes larguées dont 500 en Afrique et 2 500 sur le front occidental
Victoires_: 2 avions ennemis abattus, 3 endommagés et un sous-marin coulé
Le groupe Lorraine a perdu 35 avions
113 morts, 41 blessés, 19 prisonniers
- Groupe de bombardement Bretagne
Mission de guerre_: 21
Heures de vol__: 4 504
Nombre d’équipages engagés_: 36
Pertes__: 5 tués, 3 prisonniers
I don't know were to point you for an english book all my reference are in french.
After a quick search I've found this (but I don't know if it's a good site)
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/France.htm
I did third form French, when I was at highschool so obviously I can't speak a word of it :D
But I got the basic stuff...thanks for the info Straffo :)
Tronsky
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Hangtime you can be anti 'some' french (me uncluded) but don't forget that France is made of a lot of individuals.
Some choosen to participate actively with the german some have choose to fight the German, the majority choose to survive under the occupation.
Do you know we still find some undetonated bombs from last war ? and some gaz shell from WWI ?
2 bomb were defused last week for exemple one at Calais (I think I'm unsure) another at Rennes.
It keep reminding us what is a war.