Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hazed- on March 07, 2003, 04:33:29 PM
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heres the link: scroll down a bit for free clip:
http://www.planestuff.com/planestuff/lufguncamfoo.html
cool film the two numbers are when they begin firing to when they break off the attacks in meters.
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You see that last clip with the 110-G2 on that B17?
He was pounding on that Fortress and it kept on flying. In AH, a 110 with cannons at that range on a B17 = dead B17 in about 20 rounds.
Every time I see these videos, I think more and more how under-modeled the bomber toughness is in AH.
The drones are the easiest kills. I can routinely kill B17 drones with less than 40 .50 cal rounds from my P-51--- Hit them and they explode like they were filled with Hydrogen.
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yes midnight i hate tht modeling as i fly 17's alot...
sux
BiGB
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I noticed the 190 vs P51 film, looked like 190 snaprolled it pretty good. That last film that 110 sure came close to hitting that B17. Would of been funny if the B17 pushed foward on the controls hehe. Great films keep em coming hazed, I seen some you put awhile ago too
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You watched 10 guys being chewed to shreds in that B-17.
every time i see that film my stomach lurches.
poor bastards.
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Originally posted by Midnight
You see that last clip with the 110-G2 on that B17?
He was pounding on that Fortress and it kept on flying. In AH, a 110 with cannons at that range on a B17 = dead B17 in about 20 rounds.
Every time I see these videos, I think more and more how under-modeled the bomber toughness is in AH.
The drones are the easiest kills. I can routinely kill B17 drones with less than 40 .50 cal rounds from my P-51--- Hit them and they explode like they were filled with Hydrogen.
You think anyone was left alive in that plane? Even if anyone was, that plane was not making it home. I think you all are looking at the EXCEPTION rather than what was normal.
I have seen AH bombers soak up ten 30mm hits and keep flying and I have seen AH bombers blow up from two 50cal hits. I would say that the AH bombers are pretty balanced from a air to air damage and defense point of view. The bombers actually being effective is debatable because of the tricky calibration on the bomb sight.
Terror
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I remember someone posted that footage on here in October or November.. still good stuff, though :) I think I have a .wmv of it on my computer somewhere.
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Originally posted by Terror
You think anyone was left alive in that plane? Even if anyone was, that plane was not making it home. I think you all are looking at the EXCEPTION rather than what was normal.
Not saying anything about who lived or died in that incident. The only point I am trying to make is that major coponents fall off far too easily in AH as compatred to what I have seen of B17 damages on film.
When you see these films of LW firing dozens of cannon rounds into B17s and they keep going, it really makes you wonder what makes up the AH damage model when a single fighter can kill 2 and sometimes ALL 3 B17s in a formation on a single pass.
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He was pounding on that Fortress and it kept on flying. In AH, a 110 with cannons at that range on a B17 = dead B17 in about 20 rounds.
You don't see B17's turnfighting or looping in those guncams either. Nor do you see B17's surgically snapping your wing off from distances up to 1.5.. The vulnerability is balanced to the excessive leathality of the planes. I'd hope it was made realistically though.. Gunners should be very inaccurate and die easily. Would be fun to eliminate them first and then chew the mother to pieces.
Currently nothing smaller than 20mm direct hit ever kills gunners - heck they sometimes survive even that maybe it takes several hits.. Then even after you possibly manage to kill the gunners the b17 can outmanouver you at high altitudes enough to get a shot with the remaining guns... :)
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You don't see B17's turnfighting or looping in those guncams either. Nor do you see B17's surgically snapping your wing off from distances up to 1.5..
I could be way off base, but I sense some hostility here
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Puts war into perspective. Imagine this was a shot of Columbia breakup instead. Imagine a dozen Columbias a day? Not making any sort of polticak statement, it just struck me that the crew compliment was about the same.
If I fly bomber in a event I will have a hard time not thinking of this picture.
(http://store4.yimg.com/I/planestuff_1717_1823817)
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Originally posted by wetrat
I remember someone posted that footage on here in October or November.. still good stuff, though :) I think I have a .wmv of it on my computer somewhere.
Ya this film gets posted every 4-6 months
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Actually none of the bombers were actually hit with that many 20mm rounds. Even the worst one at the end has very few actual hits and few if any of them are repeated concentrated hits in any one area. The difference in AH is that you would hit that bomber with much more concentrated burts of fire in any one area. In fact I'd say the AH bomber takes the same amount of damage if the cannon hits are placed one by one here and there and a bit over there and here and so on as in the last film.
BTW I have the whole guncam film on VHS and none of the bombers are ever lit up as bad as we do them in AH.
Gunnery is the issue in AH, IMHO.
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Every time I see this kind of clip I remember.
They did it for real....
So we can pretend!
Every time we fly we should honor them.
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Everybody notices Something Different I suppose. I noticed most clips had a lot more weather that the main arena:cool:
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When the Bf-110 was on the tail of the bomber, there is a tonne of propwash turbulance from it when you get on it's six. That's not modelled in AH.
As well, realistic air turbulance was a lot more prevelant in the footage - especially with the 190 vs 51.
The first and the last clips make me cringe. I can guarentee you the foward crew of the Liberator and the tail B-17 were mashed up pretty good. I mean, the 190 just mauled the front of the B-24. And the 110 hammered the B17. You can actually see the bottom turret gun go dead when it riddled it. That meant he killed the guy inside. The tail and side gunners were also killed. I'm also sure the guys in front were getting shrapnel from the tail. :(
to those brave souls.
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Originally posted by Mister Fork
When the Bf-110 was on the tail of the bomber, there is a tonne of propwash turbulance from it when you get on it's six. That's not modelled in AH.
As well, realistic air turbulance was a lot more prevelant in the footage - especially with the 190 vs 51.
That is a great point actually. It would be great if AH had propwash and turbulence modelled as it would change a lot of things.
Just think how many LA7s you could auger as they chased you down on the deck. Let them loose lift in one wing for a couple seconds and see how well they stay on your 6.
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190 vs B-24 seems to be the work of an expert, if such qualification can ever be made.
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Actually none of the bombers were actually hit with that many 20mm rounds. Even the worst one at the end has very few actual hits and few if any of them are repeated concentrated hits in any one area. The difference in AH is that you would hit that bomber with much more concentrated burts of fire in any one area. In fact I'd say the AH bomber takes the same amount of damage if the cannon hits are placed one by one here and there and a bit over there and here and so on as in the last film.
BTW I have the whole guncam film on VHS and none of the bombers are ever lit up as bad as we do them in AH.
Gunnery is the issue in AH, IMHO.
Gruen is dead on. The hits look devasting in the video with all the smoke and explosion (like il2) but you dont see the concentration of fire that you see in ah.
I admit that bombers in ah are very easy kills but thats because its easy to keep the gunsite lined up. Whether thats because of the lack of turbulence, range counters, very visible tracers, or hit sprits or just time in plane remains to be seen. But Gruen is right its the "gunnery" in AH and all that it entails.
I have the VHS as well and this video has been around for some time. I have the wmv version I can zip and email to anyone who wants it. I have several others as well.
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I agree with Grun and Wot.
When playing IL-2 or Forgotten battles, the spectacualr visual effects of smoke, shrapnel and explosions really give you the illusion that you are smoking your target pretty bad. However, in many occasions, when you really go over just how much rounds you hit him with, it's surprisingly low.
My opinion is also that gunnery is the true factor. I'm an average pilot, and I know I don't have the skills to give concentrated bursts on a single area of a bomber. In my case, when attacking bombers, it often takes many bursts and shots which spread usually all over the fuselage and wings. Naturally, it takes a lot longer for me to take a bomber out, than some of the better pilots.
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Gunnery is "the dark side" of Ah.
It is a "marketing gunnery".
Bye
Michele