Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Raptor on August 15, 1999, 06:15:00 PM
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HiTech wrote:
I've already ruled out anyone
from finland being one of my alpha testers, just because of itmo.In fact as
im sitting here pondering things I've just decided that I realy don't want
any supporters of the free host to be an AH player. Time to start a log of
freehost supporter's so they can be blocked from our service. Think i'll
make the same suggestion to IMOL.
HiTech
WTG HT!! I've already spotted some people using FH that I never would have expected to use it. I will be forwarding names of these people to maintain the integrity of AH.
Raptor XO
305th BG (H)
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Huh Raptor?
Don't put my two cents worth in very often, but,
1. Where is this quote from...can u explain?
2. Why is it in forum and not private to him? What's the point?
As long as you've come this far in the forum, how about some elaboration for those of us who don't live perennially in the flight sim world.
Thanks!
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Start the Witch Hunt....Burn em !!!
Honestly, I have not played WB's in 6 months or so but I don't mind people using the 'freehost' so much.
It's very popular, someone should think of a way to make money off it, trying to bury it just might make it more likely to resurface.
JHL
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WTG HT!! I've already spotted some people using FH that I never would have expected to use it. I will be forwarding names of these people to maintain the integrity of AH.
Raptor XO
305th BG (H)
Integrity of AH?
Rubbish! It is a free market. Whining doesn't make it go away. "Exclusion lists" won't make it go away. The Freehost peeps saw an avenue and they are using it. Why not? It is a helluva lot cheaper than WB. Works, too from what I've heard.
Instead of whining, learn a lesson. Make the next version un-"freehostable"-- and make the next product so attractive that the freehost players will flock to it, no matter the cost. Lead by example. Leave 'em in the dust.
DH
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That quote came from news://ugly.dsl.suomi.net/freehost.general (http://news://ugly.dsl.suomi.net/freehost.general) . You go read it then come back here and post again.
Rap
[This message has been edited by Raptor (edited 08-15-1999).]
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I don't blame HT one bit for doing this. Probably the only thing he can do about freeloadhost(no, this won't stop it, only raising the moral standards of a freehost pirate a notch would), short of throwing gobs of money at a lawyer and that wouldn't stop it either.
Didn't read much on the ugly-fh-news server but, I read enough.
I think most of them have no intention of paying to play a game, no matter how good.
Just a bunch of bottom feeding scum bags and HiTech has every right to keep them out of the AH world.
HiTech made a brave trek into the freehost newsgroup and was spat upon and ridiculed but, he did not stoop to their level and maintained his cool. <SALUTE>
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-rock-
WarBirds and DOA squads
332nd Flying Mongrels
Jagdstaffel 9 Kreighundz
[This message has been edited by Rock (edited 08-15-1999).]
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Just read some of that stuff about the WB Freehost.
Keep them out HT. Whatever it takes.
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S/L Corvet, 416 RCAF
FLY CANUCK!
416rcaf.org (http://416rcaf.org)
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I think the freehost players can be safely described as Quakers. These people aren't interested in the long term survival or improvement of the on-line air-combat simulator. They are primarily interested in a cheap thrill and, in a few weeks or months when the novelty has passed, they will move on to another game. The damage however will already be done, and companies like HTC will not be able to put out a flight sim and make it financialy viable.
There are, however, people who ARE interested in the flight sim over the long run and, who are interested in paying to see that people like Hitech are working to provide us with the best on-line gaming experience possible.
I sincerely hope that HTC can develop a product which will not be subject to this type of 'cheating'.
Quixotic
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This is the result of my clicking on the URL you have in your post Rap.
"Not Found
The requested object does not exist on this server. The link you followed is either outdated,
inaccurate, or the server has been instructed not to let you have it. Please inform the site
administrator of the referring page."
You told me to check it and come back and post. Now what do you have to tell us now?
Is this real? worth pursuing? Or is it a waste of our time?
Help me out here. I just asked a simple question.
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It's a newsgroup, I had to set it up through Outlook to read it. The link puts a http:// in front so it doesn't work correctly.
I think people are making too much out of this freehost program - I doubt it will ruin the chances of future online sims like AH.
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I'd love to see all FH players banned, but how would you know who was playing? Callsign? That's not entirely reliable (open to abuse from malicious individuals), and all you'd have to do would be to change your callsign to play AH.
Better still - find a better way to stop (slow down) the hackers. Learn from the mistakes of the past and move on to the brighter future, which should include not one, not two, but three great sims!
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Topcat
249 Squadron RAF "Gold Coast"
With Fists and Heels
Tangmere Wing
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I've already ruled out anyone
from finland being one of my alpha testers, just because of itmo.
Well this is just shrecking great! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I'm from Finland so I guess I'm excluded automatically, even when I have never seen itmo in person and I haven't used freehost never ever? But Russians are still allowed I guess?
Take a look of my Warbirds and Aces High pages. Can anyone imagine how long I did spend time to gather all that information about Warbirds planes? I also had the first ever (tm) Aces High pages waiting for stuff to appear so I can put it to those pages for curious folks who might be interested playing this new game?
Do those pages look like work of man who want's to ruin companies running those games?
I feel very dissapointed because I'm excluded from being possible alpha tester just because I live in same country as some hacker (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I have and will put much more time to my Aces High pages. Now this feels like slap in the face!
In fact as im sitting here pondering things I've just decided that I realy don't want any supporters of the free host to be an AH player. Time to start a log of
freehost supporter's so they can be blocked from our service. Think i'll make the same suggestion to IMOL.
I supported freehost for about 2 days until facts started to come out. I guess I have no place in AH community? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
When the freehost came to public, I personally think it as a positive thing because I thought it had something to new to offer for IMOL. Better damage model, more advanced ammo loadouts etc. Quickly it came apparent that all was not as advertized, itmo did not inform IMOL in advance as it was originally thought. After that I reversed my opinion quite dramatically.
Itmo said at the time that he will not develop freehost any further but that has shown to be a lie, new versions are pouring out right now. I was completely wrong in case of itmo's motivations. I feel bad that I ever expressed my thoughts that his achievement might be good thing for IMOL.
But everlasting ban to Aces High seems little harsh.
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Obfr. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'
[This message has been edited by Jochen (edited 08-16-1999).]
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itmo turned me into a newt. "A newt you say?" Yes, a newt....well, I got better. BURN HIM!!!!
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MrHanky
http://members.xoom.com/jms546
The Pale Horses Squadron
"...and the rider's name was death."
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I'm just a dweeb, so fill me in:
How exactly does freehost work? Does it simulate a WB online session on a LAN or can you use it to connect on the internet "for free" too?
N.B.: I am NOT interested in using this thing, just trying to understand the "Freehost-Debate".
I can t quite understand BTW why you would bann an entire COUNTRY from Alpha-Test/Gameplay just because Freehost was written by someone from that country. What s the backround on this?
Sascha
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I can t quite understand BTW why you would bann an entire COUNTRY from Alpha-Test/Gameplay just because Freehost was written by someone from that country. What s the backround on this?
Beats me too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Before this I thought that Finns were natural part of online WW II sims, after all we invented the infamous Flaxpanzer oil!
But judging all Finns by actions of one is little, well, prejudiced.
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Obfr. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'
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The point of my post IS to get more information. I'll count myself in the novice dweeb category also.
Above all....I sense something a little strange about about this whole post.
If Hi-Tech really communicated that....I just wanted to see it myself and get some more explanations like a couple of the folks above. Surely, expressing frustration one time might be acceptable, but, implementation of a policy such as this is impossible.
Lets not make too big of a thing over this.
Hi-Tech, we have some bright days ahead...perhaps you can jump in here and get us all back on track.
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My apologizes to jochen.
It’s really has nothing to do with lumping all Finland guys together. But in the online world we are a fairly small group of people. The odds of anyone from Finland knowing itmo, via email, or in person increase ‘s greatly with there local and language.
The alpha stage release’s are fairly relaxed, lot’s of files are not crypted some are even in ASCII.
What it comes down to is the likelihood of an alpha version getting into the wrong hands would increase if I released a version to Finland players. I really think the Finnish flight sim crowd is a great group of players. They have done great things for WB in the past, helping get it in magazines and such. But at this stage of AH development I prefer to error on the side of caution.
As to the freehost support’s I’m not on a witch-hunt, Just because someone tried or checked out the freehost doesn’t mean much to me. But people helping the propagation of the freehost can have a huge impact on online gaming.
I feel so strongly about how the freehost concept can impact the economics and viability of online gaming and that it’s just simply wrong, that I must take a strong stance against it.
HiTech
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Welp, I guess I'm gonna get flamed for this, as some won't mind and some I'm probably gonna offend, I apologize to those who get offended.
On taking a stance on principles, fighting for what ya believe in, or just plain standing up for what you think is right or wrong, I can totally respect that.
I totally sympathize with Jochen, as he and all other Fins, who don't know itmo, didn't do anything wrong to begin with, but just happen to live in the wrong part of the world at the wrong time, have just been flamed for something they didn't do. That burns me to no end!
On security issues, I understand HT's caution and don't blame him for that at all, at this point of development. But, the in the future, I would suggest that decisions based on security issues such as this be made secure. In other words, one might think before one says. Not a slam, just a reminder.
DRAHN
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Thanks Hi-Tech,
I'm sure that helps us all understand the relevant considerations behind the statement. I'm sure we all look forward to a successful beta release and won't blow the alpha testing concerns out of proportion.
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Huge SIGH of relief!
My apologizes to jochen.
No problem, I understanded your point and motives fully after I read your reply. I think I bit overreacted when I see the original quote.
It’s really has nothing to do with lumping all Finland guys together. But in the online world we are a fairly small group of people. The odds of anyone from Finland knowing itmo, via email, or in person increase ‘s greatly with there local and language.
That is true and your assumption was justified, after all Warbirds community in Finland is not too big. But number of those who actively promote freehost's cause is not nearly as big as that.
Recent article in Finnish Pelit Lehti (games) magazine actually feel somewhat sorry about this whole situation because according to them, Warbirds is in best shape it has ever been.
The alpha stage release’s are fairly relaxed, lot’s of files are not crypted some are even in ASCII.
What it comes down to is the likelihood of an alpha version getting into the wrong hands would increase if I released a version to Finland players. I really think the Finnish flight sim crowd is a great group of players. They have done great things for WB in the past, helping get it in magazines and such. But at this stage of AH development I prefer to error on the side of caution.
Hmmh, I see your point now and I must agree. The only thing is that it might be pretty hard to know to who take to alpha phase. Maybe I overrected because I saw only mention of Finnish players. For what I have heard, russian and other east european players are threat of same magnitude. First cheat cases I encountered in Warbirds were from russian players.
Oh well, I kind of hoped to be part of Aces High development (since I missed the opportunity last time) with my small effort but as the circumstances are what they are, I cannot do anything but sadly accept the situation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Maybe later perhaps? Or even short peek to alpha testers area? Yeah, I'm pretty desperate (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I feel so strongly about how the freehost concept can impact the economics and viability of online gaming and that it’s just simply wrong, that I must take a strong stance against it.
Well, if my work and income (not to speak about time and love devoted to project) depends from this action, I would certainly do the same.
Man, I just read your post in that freehost newsserver and replies you got.
I must apologize for all that crap you got from there. I would have never believed that I will saw things written like that by my fellow countrymens (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
What makes me feel even worser is that for brief time I gave my support to itmo. I can see now that I was very wrong indeed.
Hitech, thank you for your quick reply, it made me feel much better. I think I can actually sleep well next night (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I totally sympathize with Jochen, as he and all other Fins, who don't know itmo, didn't do anything wrong to begin with, but just happen to live in the wrong part of the world at the wrong time, have just been flamed for something they didn't do. That burns me to no end!
No sweat. Now the Hitech has explained what it's all about, I agree with him. If it is neccessary for future of game, it must be done. I personally didn't feel like being accused or anything but I was just, well, suprised. After I investigated freehost newsgroups later today I found that Hitechs worry is real.
For HTCI's view Finland is pretty near russia and with population of 5 million rather insignificant so decision is easily justified.
Hmm, how fast I can change my nationality? Any green cards available ASAP?
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Obfr. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'
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Hell guys, it's just Alpha. Just be patient for a few more weeks and wait for the Beta release. If HiTech decided not to let anyone in the lower 50 states test for the same reason I'd be in the same boat I'm in now - waiting for the Beta release. Unless you guys were dropped from the Alpha testers list just chill for a couple more weeks till the Beta comes out.
It's all good man! (http://www.thewormhole.net/UBB/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Windle (edited 08-16-1999).]
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Here is something I've found interesting with WB.. and I've actually seen it occur in many other "online only games".
When CK(WB) first came out it was free/fun and was changing literally every week. Dramatic enhancements would come at least once a month keeping the game "new" to us CK veterans. All of this occured when it was beta.
Then CK was converted to WB and a new "graphics engine". The new game was tremendous and fun just like the old one however it seemed to take an awfully long time for the new WB to come out and it definitely didn't seem feature friendly.
Months passed and the next version came out.. ships! new planes! better modelling.
Months passed and another version.. planes.. more modelling?
MANY months passed and more planes.
MANY MANY months passed and IM acquired WB (boo)..
A year passes and the "junkers troop carrier is implemented."
Year(s) pass and nothing happens.. a few new planes/modelling blah... The announcement of WB 3.0 FINALLY with new changes. (vapourware? years from now?)
You guys want to know why FREEHOST has been developed and is used by people ? People are getting sick of paying for something that is nearly the same as it was 2 years ago. Online games are NOT a novelty anymore and you can't charge through the roof just so that someone can "shoot down" someone else.
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Jochen, glad to see ya have an open mind on the subject, I <S> ya for that.
Just in case me point was missed, the statement of not including the Fins, in my opinion should never have been made publically. Once the decision was made, and BTW I probably would have made the same one, it should been kept behind closed doors. To voice a opinion is one thing, but that statement sounded like an denouncement of Fins in general. I'm reasonably sure it wasn't, but that's what it sounded like to me. Unlike our current head of state here beleives, words mean something. We speek'em, we fight for'em, we fight over'em, we send people to jail because of them, so when we do speek, we need to be sure we know what we are saying and be ready to take the credit or the criticism.
On chilling out, I live in Texas, born and raised, "Native Bubba". Can't remember the last time it was under a 100. To chill would be a blessing, so if anyone has any extra beer they wanna get rid of please forward ASAP to the following address:
P.O. Box BR549
Hicksville, Texas
No zip code cause we ain't big enough yet.
If I was really HOT about this, and I'm not, I'd be in HT's office right now, saying this eye to eye, nose to nose. He's only an hour and a half away.
Again, I beleive the statement was just an error in judgement on his part. The decision was I beleive, the right one to make.
DRAHN
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My apologies to the Finns. I wanted the quote to be against the supporters of Freehost and I didn't mean for it to be directed towards people in Finland. I am not a discriminator by any means. I'm not that type of person.
I just frown on what has happened and hope it doesn't have a negative impact on online flight sims.
Rap
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My apologies to the Finns. I wanted the quote to be against the supporters of Freehost and I didn't mean for it to be directed towards people in Finland. I am not a discriminator by any means. I'm not that type of person.
Don't sweat it, I know you didn't direct your comment against any nationality but to against some people. After I saw what some finns said to Hitech in their newsgroup, I really felt bad, I mean bad. If anyone else had had read those post, you can see why folks are angry.
I guess all communities have their black sheeps...
I just frown on what has happened and hope it doesn't have a negative impact on online flight sims.
Roger that! When I first heard about freehost I thought it would be terrific. Well, now we know the thruth. How naive one can be?
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Obfr. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'
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What irritates me is all this moral mumbo jumbo. Moral issues has abselutely nothing to do with this. They are bad, we are so nice with high moral standards kind of talk in an international community is way off, way off. International law, human rights etc does exist, but there exist no such thing as an international moral standard.
Just think of all the starved-to-death children in third world countries all our $2 per hour would have saved have we given our money to them, instead playing games in front of a PC!! This is where moral will lead us, so keap moral out of it.
Finland, as a member of the EEC, is bound to have accepted international copyright laws. It is pretty clear to me by now that by running a free host, you voilate international copyright laws. However, it is also pretty clear that no laws are broken by itmo when he made his host, or by continuing developing it.
Either do something about it, sue the ones that are running free hosts, or just leave it be. In any case at least stop whining about those "terrible ugly demoralized scumbags" or whatever.
Just my $0.02 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bod
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What irritates me is all this moral mumbo jumbo.... They are bad, we are so nice with high moral standards kind of talk in an international community is way off, way off.
Either do something about it, sue the ones that are running free hosts, or just leave it be. In any case at least stop whining about those "terrible ugly demoralized scumbags" or whatever.
Just my $0.02
Bod
Bod, you hit the nail squarely on the head.
Build a game with the best of AW and the best of WB and you'll likely not have to worry about anything, too much....but
If someone were really smart in IMOL, they would figure out how the Freehost works, debug the problem issues, box it and sell it! Complete w/ docs, etc.
Sounds like opportunity to me.
DH
Oh, yeah, and I'd hire that Itmo guy, too.
[This message has been edited by Horn (edited 08-16-1999).]
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Now that I learn more about FreeHoax I think HT is right!
For those of you that don't know. FleaHost is a Java program that acts as a server for the WB front end. It would allow a person and a few of his friends to play without paying I-whatever-they-call-it-now for game service.
The problem is that game copyrights, in fact most computer programs are copyrighted against reverse engineering. That is in essence what this "Itmo" guy did. And since the game and the server architecture code are copyrighted, it makes it illegal in the US to distribute, possess, or utilize pirated software, whether it's illegally copied or reverse engineered.
So, the proper thing would be to keep anyone that is assisting in the development and distribution of FreeloaderHost from having access and opportunity to do the same thing to AH. Given the choice, I'd rather pay to play AH than play WB on FreeHoser!
Carrot, I apologize about my reply in the O'Club thread...bro, I didn't know.
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2flie
Suicide Operations Group
"SOG!"
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If someone were really smart in IMOL, they would figure out how the Freehost works, debug the problem issues, box it and sell it! Complete w/ docs, etc.
Sounds like opportunity to me.
Of course. If you cant beat them (for whatever reason) then join them. WB boxed with a MAX 32 user host, somewhat crippled, is bound to be a bestseller, and you can charge premium for it, $50+ (anyone heard of Quake 3 ?). You have to make sure of course that it is not legal to charge for connections. Still, the "original" wb host with hundreds of players would attract many people, and maybe even more than now by running large well organized events, and a focus on *service*.
If i where imol or ien, and considering their current shape, this is what i would do.
But, what do i know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Bod
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Hitech:
Does that mean that if I say I think freehost is cool, I'm a supporter? I'm not sure what you mean exactly.
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Wasn't it the Finns who unleashed the monster in the newest version of "The Thing" the John Carpenter movie about the monster in Antartica?
The cool thing about that movie was that I was stationed in Shemya Ak. and we would pop that movie in the VCR when ever a real good blizzard hit.
I guess it was the Norwegiens.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
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By the way, if you look down in the corner of this post you see the little "ip logged" thing.
That and your e-mail addy are how you block people.
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
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Bod Wrote:
"What irritates me is all this moral mumbo jumbo. Moral issues has abselutely nothing to do with this. They are bad, we are so nice with high moral standards kind of talk in an international community is way off, way off. International law, human rights etc does exist, but there exist no such thing as an international moral standard.
Just think of all the starved-to-death children in third world countries all our $2 per hour would have saved have we given our money to them, instead playing games in front of a PC!! This is where moral will lead us, so keap moral out of it."
I have to strongly disagree. There ARE universal moral truths. All major religions and philisophical systems contain some central truths; i.e. murder is bad, theft is wrong, etc. Theft IS wrong. It is wrong to take food from another person's mouth. The freehosters take food from the WB (AH, or whatever) developers' mouths. The freehosters get a free ride from the sweat of the developers' brows. This is wrong.
Is it on the same scale as murder, genocide, etc? NO. But is still not nice and not "moral" whether you are from Finland, Kazahkstan, Congo or wherever.
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-cman-
The Dweebs of Death
"Death before dishonor,
often just moments
before."
[This message has been edited by -cman- (edited 08-17-1999).]
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All depends on what you mean by cool leonid.
I would define a supporter as someone who thinks and states or continues to take action implying that that the freehost or anything similar (done without the original author's consent) should continue.
HiTech
[This message has been edited by hitech (edited 08-17-1999).]
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cman:
I understand what you mean, but i don't think you understood my meaning, maybe due to my bad english.
To put it short:
In my view it is low moral standard to sit and whine about how bad and immoral other people are. Just me saying this (which is totally self-contradictory), shows how stupid it is to use moral.
You punish people for what they do, not how they think.
Something like that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bod
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Can't blame ya, Hi-Tech. I read the FREELOADER NG, and the slamming HT took in there was unbelievable. Itmo and his camp followers will cheat/hack/steal any code they can get their hands on, and justify themselves with any inane excuse they can come up with . They even steal from each other. I wouldn't join their little hack-fest if they paid ME $2/hr. Personally, i wouldn't be caught dead associating with those people.
What is funny is the Russian hackers ripped off some stuff from Itmo and he was whining about it, heheh.
My only comment in regards to that turn of events:
Mess With The Bull, You Get The Horn
Cheaters Suck,
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cabby ++44th SOS++
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HiTech:
Okay. I thought what itmo was able to do w/o any documentation was pretty cool. Especially when a lot of his implementations were what many gamers wanted anyway. It certainly was an embarrassment to IMOL/iEN, who have been very slow in coming up to speed with WB's ongoing development, yet have documentation and the resources.
It isn't cool to steal someone's intellectual efforts, especially something as involved and developed as WB.
So, I guess I'm middle of the road. The status quo needs a good kick in the tush at times to allow for new horizons, but at the same time people shouldn't be taken advantaged of. And company's are, I have to say, nothing more than people. Regardless of the greed of capitalism (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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An interesting thread (except for the "universal morals" guy--he obviously doesn't read newspapers or get out much...here's your assignment: explain "ethnic cleansing" as it relates to Serbian "morality").
Seriously, though, Leonid's "good kick in the tush" for the status quo is right on. Right or wrong, this itmo fella found an enormous loophole in the host software, the law, and exploited it--and lo and behold, peeps started flocking to it.
I submit to you HiTech that if no one was interested in the FreeHost idea, there would be tons less griping. If agreed, then what peeps seem to be angry at is potential loss of revenue. If that is in fact the case, why doesn't IMOL (or whoever they are today) move to "absorb" this idea?
Just wondering<tm>
DH
[This message has been edited by Horn (edited 08-18-1999).]
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Of course there's interest in this idea. I could generate a lot more interest by making a full blown host totaly free.But people wanting somthing for less is always an interest of consumers. That type of interest is not the question you need to look at from mine or IMOL's perspective. Neither of us is here to simply let people have fun, what we are here for is to exchange what people want in way of fun,for them giving us money.
The simple fact is the only resone for HTC or IMOL to make either H2H or a limited multiplayer host version would be to attract more people or increase play on the service.
If you wish to debate the pro's and con's of how many people in a free enviorement can best increase revenue I'd love to here your view's on that question.
HiTech
As to what itmo is doing is legal or not that will be settled in the court's either with itmo or some othere similar situation.
My opinion is itmo would loose.
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The simple fact is the only reason for HTC or IMOL to make either H2H or a limited multiplayer host version would be to attract more people or increase play on the service.
Exactly my point. Just observing the Quake example (granted, they are generally not the same kind of customer)--folks are participating in small "LAN versions"--many in preparation to play with the general on-line community (the Big Dogs).
It would seem to me AH could have the same potential: small groups participating in practice, buff runs, squad flight, or whatever, in preparation for the "big" game. Charge for the FE and the host, limit the features available if needed.
Profit through the shrink-wrap, make it easier for peeps to learn and use and practice. Use registration/upgrades to track your shrink-wrap user group. Probably even experience an increase in revenues on the massive multiplayer side as peeps migrate to the "Show."
HiTech, you know you could do a better job with Freehost than these folks slowly learning the ropes you have already mastered. Perhaps the freehost phenomenon could be incoporated among the bells and whistles of a feature-rich release of AH???
Might even create better quality pile-its, who knows...
Just sayin<tm>
DamnedHorn
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ID is a box game producer,Producing a sellable box version is not just simply putting a little polish on an online game.It would take just as much time to produce that box product as it does to produce a solely online version. On a full priced box product the devoloper normaly recives $6 to $10 a box.Do the math that's a fair amout of copies to make any revenue. But the basic fact is we want to concentrait on the online side of thing's. Getting distracted from the task at hand is one of the major problems we had at ICI, and is somthing we wish not to repeat at HTC.We want to do one thing (an online flight sim) and do it better than anyone else. The only way I know of doing that is not to lose focus.
What we are planning is 4 to 8 multiplayer play, with a match making service free on our web sight.
HiTech
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HT is being generous with regard to the amount earned by box developers. Let's say a developer gets a 25% royalty and a game retailing at $39.99 wholesales for $24.99. Then deduct 10% for MDF ($22.50). Deduct the costs of goods at $4/unit (18.50). Whoops, I forgot about marketing and publish overhead, but we won't deduct those because some publishers don't deduct the costs of goods. Thus the developer gets $4.63/unit.
Of course, we're talking about the initial bout of sales. Pretty quickly the retailers demand that the wholesale price be dropped (or they'll return the merchandise). This is why you see Falcon 4.0 selling for $15 less than a year after release. This results in an even smaller royalty for the developer.
If a developer generates an average of $3/unit. He's doing great. Combine this with the fact that most games sell less that $25 units and you begin to realize that life ain't so pretty for developers.
In fairness, most developer get an advance on royalties that generally provides the developer with compensation that exceeds earned royalties. Nevertheless, selling the box and giving the online game away for free is highly unlikely to provide sufficient revenue to make a great online game. Moreover, there's little incentive for the developer to continue to update the game (gotta move to the next box product).
Rolo
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Quote:What we are planning is 4 to 8 multiplayer play, with a match making service free on our web sight.
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That would be great!
The one thing Warbirds was missing was the ability for 2v2 or 4v4 practice.
If AH has this, our squad will be happy campers!!!
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Hitech sayeth:
As to the freehost support’s I’m not on a witch-hunt, Just because someone tried or checked out the freehost doesn’t mean much to me. But people helping the propagation of the freehost can have a huge impact on online gaming.
I posted on AGW the reason for my trying FH for specifically this reason- there are those that are curious, there are those that are frustrated with aspects of the game, or in my case, there are those that are no longer able to connect at all to iEN. I do understand the ethical side of the argument, and don't play FH.
What is disconcerting is how quickly the witch hunt does start; the Finns, ACA'ers, etc. I know how emotional this community gets about the game (WB's, and soon AH), but failure to recognize there are reasons some tried FH beyond simply wanting to cheat, freeload, or otherwise wreck the community are very short-sighted.
Thank you Hitech for softening on the tone regarding FH. I realize it is your livelihood your protecting, so I understand the emotions behind your posts.
*disclaimer* I am not supporting the use of FH.
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HITECH I have one quick thing to say which is not to be disrespectfull to you or your views I thought about this for awhile after reading you response to jochen. I live in Grapevine Texas until June of this year I had no idea Warbirds was created and based here or IMOL was here either. I have played Warbirds of and on for a year now and do have an online account. The thing I have a problem with is Finnland has over a Million people and the Warbird community is very small there, Grapevine has 36000 and an even smaller community, I wouldnt have know any of the people from IMOL if I saw them and my wife insured some of them(just found that out). I agree with you about saving you investment and here is the one quick thing that turned long. Charge the freeloaders if they dont sign up to play for a year 80 bucks sound good to me. Im new to this community and hope not to get any wrong blood flowing towards anybody from anybody. So protect your game and charge em charge em good.
Please dont take this as a flame, no harm intended just want to point out the world is small but not bellybutton small as we think.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon
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There is no way i could take your post as a flame indian.
I understand what your are saying about what's the likly hood of ,just because players are from finland how would they know eachother. That thought has crossed my mind also. How the dissicion was made was that I had a call from a Finish player. He was having a little outing with 5 other player's to play the lattest flight sim's over the weekend.He asked if he could have an alpha copy of AH. I have met this player multiple times and don't belive he would delibertly do anything bad with AH. But I also know that most alpha's have a way of circulating between friend's. My fist thought was (sure ill send you a copy) but then itmo came to mind. I then asked my self is it worth the risk to send him a copy, and decided no.
In some ways I wish I could charge the "free loaders" but getting people interested in an online game, by letting them have the FE free with limited features, is part of the cost side of doing things. I just want to make sure HTC has the control of those cost and features.
BTW where did you move to and who did your wife work for?
HiTech
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YOu guys are a joke and just want to be a part of this little club and will be paying your tulips off to be in it. I would say if FH opens some peoples eyes as to how much of a rip off Pay to play sims are then im all for it. Warbirds and all Pay to play sims are all going to fade away eventually when everyone wakes up and figures out that you can get just as good a sim and online experience and not have to pay for every hour you fly, what a joke!!!!!!
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Stardog,
I must thank you for your last post as it has allowed me to rethink my politics.
You see, much to the chagrin of my former ICI colleagues, my politics tend to run to the left. However, your suggestion that it is a good thing to disregard the countless hours of labor put into a product like WarBirds and develop a bypass for the revenue generating mechanism makes me pause.
The revenue generated by WarBirds did some simple things, like put food on my table and the tables of more than 20 others. As much as I hate to admit it, I became somewhat addicted to eating and found myself doing it 2 to 3 times a day. I would have hated to give it up. Unfortunately, if faced with a choice between creating a sim and eating, I'm afraid I, and most others, would choose the latter.
By viewing this issue from a personal perspective, I now see the error of appropriating the work of others without adequate compensation. Stardog, thank you for providing me with this moment of enlightenment. I shall be forever in your debt.
Rolo
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HITECH I still live in Grapevine Texas I work for that big Airline based in Fort Worth you know the big silver one. My wife works for a good hands agent behind the Firestone center in Grapevine. She told me about having some people insured with IMOL after the move and that move to NC she tried to contact someone out there and recieved the answer macgine deal, after that she came home for lunch and ask if I ever heard of Imagic Online. Which ofcourse I had I told her thye just moved to NC, she said that what the recoreder says. Thats how I found out about IMOL. If you guys are still in the Grapevine area and would like to see a big Airline maintenance base send me an email, This goes for anyone I can walk people threw with restriction ofcourse on any weekend.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon
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Well i am certainly glad that Warbirds kept your family fed just as my job feeds my family and i dont mean any harm to anyone that works for warbirds or AH for that matter, what im saying is people are going to wake up someday and realize that you dont have to pay $2/hour to fly a realistic sim online. And then that happens what are all the people that work for these companies going to do? maybe putting your time and money into a great realistic sim like the rest of them that you pay for once and then fly online all you want would be a better choice. But hey who knows. I do know i have a family and would never wish anyones family any harm and if thats what you want to make out of my post go ahead, whatever gets through the day but saying that i also am not responsible for how you choose to feed your family or provide for them just as you are not for how i do it, but if you thought/think that pay to play sims are something with a longterm future i would plea with you to rethink that, because as bigger and better sims come out that support more and more people and have more realistic FM's how many people are going to continue to pay $2/hour to fly? Thats a bet i wouldnt be willing to take myself but hey im just a realist from the midwest what the hell do i know?
S! good luck to AH and Warbirds get the fat cash while you can, cause just look at sims like B-17 II and FLight Combat and you see where your customers are going to end up.....
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rofl ROLO - that's brilliant! I just hope you don't find out about s-e-x - you think FOOD is addicitve...
I'm employed in the software development business, and I can tell you from personal experience that opinions like stardog's are as widespread as they are moronic. Dale's statements, though made in haste and probably more anger than he intended, are completely justified and are not unwarranted paranoia.
Go hit your favorite search engine or chat client for the words warez, appz, gamez, or MP3z. Think about the billions of dollars of revenue that might be lost to this network of c0oL DuDeZ. Whatever business you are in, ask yourself what the impact would be in your life if the the product or service your company sells to help you make a living was being stolen with ease across the globe (Bernie/Worr, if you are reading this, your industry doesn't count ;p).
The unfortunate thing is that HT's costs are going to go up as a result of having to defend against the potential hack attacks that are sure to come based on what I'm reading at the NG's. Which means we as players will pay the price. The hackers will tell you it's a good thing that they are making the game more hackproof - they will even want thanks. I wonder if they will thank a burglar (or worse) who breaks into their house to remind them they need a better security system at home....?
[This message has been edited by eadg (edited 08-19-1999).]
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Stardog If you never have played online then you cant know the difference. These games are far more fun to play with over 150 others online (and less for that matter). As you can see HT wants to promote his new game so probably wont charge for it but he could make it very limited for offline use only like less planes to choose from one arena to choose from and so on. Dont hink he will. The reason we pay to play is the pure enjoyment we have while online, if Im dont spend 2$ an hour here Ill do it some where else. The online WB crowd is some of the best people ive seen online most are willing to help the newbee's and I do my best to do the same although Im kind of new myself. Playing online is an expereince not an expense, for anyone who truely loves flightsims then there is no alternative to playng in a massive arena. Playing agiasnt 4 to 8 is ok but will get old after awhile.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon
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Sorry folks ... I can't seem to find the info I need in this thread (or in the Website) ... call me stupid, but don't call me Shirley!
What *is* the likely policy to be with regards AH hosting/pricing - main or mini?
Having access to a scaled down host for Ladder systems as my WB Ladder would be great to have ... and in no way life-threatening to the main server(s).
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Aministrator, Warbirds H2H Ladder - http://www.fl-air.co.uk/warbirds/ (http://www.fl-air.co.uk/warbirds/)
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Adamski
HiTech Said 4 to * multiplayer with match making on the server. Dont know how to quote a post yet so see HiTech above.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon
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Stardog,
I appreciate your not wanting to take food out of my mouth (my wife appreciates it too, but not as much because she doesn't eat a lot).
The simple fact of the matter is that it costs a lot to make and maintain a quality sim. A company has to generate enough revenue with its sim to cover the costs, something to my knowledge that no online sim has ever done. Thus, while $2/hour may seem expensive, it's less than the cost of actually producing the game and offering the service.
$2/hour may not be the answer. Different price plans may be more successful, but the crux of the matter is that $2/hour is not gouging the consumer.
Plus, take a moment to reflect on what -itmo- is doing with Freehost. He hasn't created a sim. He's not providing the users with an alternative game. Freehost would not exist without the months and years of work the ICI/IMOL crew put into to creating the client software. Where's the incentive for people to create the client software if they have no chance of being compensated when the revenue mechanism is bypassed?
The entertainment software industry is a rocky business and few companies actually make money. Chipping away at an already shakey economic foundation is not a great way to ensure that we'll have quality games to play tomorrow.
Rolo
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In truth I dont give a damn one way or the other about freehost. I dont, however respond well to threats. Or bullying. I wont be playing AH and since I have read that HT owns stock in WB, as soon as another sim comes out (and there are several comeing) I will be leaving WB so that he does not recive even a few pennys from me.
The reason I am reading this bb is that I heard that there was a freehost thread here. This after browbeating AGW, and BnZ into removeing the subject of freehost from there BB.
easymo
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I managed to stumble into a european warbirds ladder a few days back and I tell you these guys are FREEHOST. They are completely and totally outside the revenue generating cycle.
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 08-19-1999).]
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I want to help with the Alpha and Beta!!
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"I wont be playing AH and since I have read that HT owns stock in WB, as soon as another sim comes out (and there are several comeing) I will be leaving WB so that he does not recive even a few pennys from me."
What a relief. Thanks, easymo.
Yeager, i assume the guy at the top of this "ladder" LOL!!! is the best cheater??? Like maybe he flies an Me-110 with twin Jumo's, 4 75mm's in the nose, and a 75mm rear gun? Wow, what a guy, i'm truly impressed.
Stardog, you do have a point in regards to big bux to play online. I won't pay premium prices to fly an online game that is unsecured from hackers, cheaters, account theft, and overloaded with "user-configurable" you-name-its. However, i WILL pay premium prices if i am reasonably assured the game is FREE as possible of the aforementioned trash, and provides a realistisc, level playing field.
Ok, HT and co., i won't clutter your board up with any more FREELOADER posts, but consider what i said about a "secure" game.
I wish HTC/AH all possible success.
Thanks,
Cabby
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cabby ++44th SOS++
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HA HA HA Ha Ha Ha ha ha... hmm, no one laughing... Umm...
Ah, to h@#$ with those people from Finland, and the rest of those Eastern Europeans, and all the people from the former USSR. While were at it, get rid of those Chinese, and why not those evil Canadians!!!
Sure burn 'em all at the stake!!!
Being fair? That's not the American way!!!
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-tip--
VMF-58 Wildcards
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Hey Pyro,
I thought you were going to keep anti-WB, anti-"other player", and other disparaging threads from cluttering up this board. Even though FH is a subject that lends itself to philosophical debates it also engenders extremism and player bashing as evidenced in some of the posts above.
HT isn't going to change his mind about FH and has already stated a diplomatic post on the subject. Everything else is superfluous at best, and now, with the advent of stardog and easymo posting, souring the burgeoning community of AH.
Argo's pages have been depressing me for quite a while now because of these type posts. Please don't let it get a foothold here.
-sudz-
PS Is this what you get when you host a FreeNewsGroup (FNG)?
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Easymo and Stardog are here purely for our joint amusement or at least for their marginal entertainment value, Sudz--don't let 'em get to ya.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
DH
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Really! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This thread is the best sim related value going and I do not have to pay $2.00 an hour for it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Oddest part is it's brought to you by the folks who do pay "$2.00 and hour to keep the riff raff out" crowd..
--Westy
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Easymo and Stardog are here purely for our joint amusement or at least for their marginal entertainment value, Sudz--don't let 'em get to ya....
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Yeah, one's quitting and the other isn't gonna pay, so who cares? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Oddest part is it's brought to you by the folks who do pay "$2.00 and hour to keep the riff raff out" crowd..
--Westy
(Pssst, Westy
I pay flat rates, too)
(sssshhhhhh)
DamnedHorn
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quote from HiTech
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If you wish to debate the pro's and con's of how many people in a free environment can best increase revenue I'd love to here your view's on that question.
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OK HiTech, I think this is an issue worth discussing here and might be worth a new thread if youre serious about it as an option.
itmo stated that one of the main reasons he created freehost was because of the interest limitations of the 2 player h2h feature of Warbirds. So how many players should you allow in a h2h situation before it starts to affect revenue?
I would suggest 4 players, perhaps 6 max. The thing you miss in the 2 player h2h is teamwork and SA training. Its easy to watch for one apponent, but against 2 or 3 makes it harder. And playing wingman with your team mate against another 2 players would be a great training aid for squads. Having the ability to run a private 4 player session over the internet or via a LAN can only promote the game because it'll allow more people to appreciate the thrill that can only be experience by flying combat against multiple live apponents. Once bitten, the AH on-line world will call and as long as pricing is reasonable they will come.
Allowing multiple players will also promote AH parties much like the Quake parties, where a small group will get together for some practice and fun. These tend to attract new or inexperienced players and I have personal experience where this has created new accounts.
Because there are always limited times when you can play a h2h session due to the fact that you have to make prior arrangements with all of the people involved, it will never substitute for being able to just log on to AH and fly against multiple apponents of various skill levels anytime you want, day or night. As for those few who believe they should get something for nothing, its worth noting that most of the people who promote freehost admit that do not have WB accounts and will never get one. You will probably never get these type of people to open an account, so they were never going to be revenue anyway. Count the names on the freehost news group, there arent many different names, just a few who post a lot.
The obvious point is that there will be little need for anyone to develop a freehost style program for AH if the basic h2h is enhanced just a little. I would suspect most people who would try to run a freehost style session from their home will find that their modem limits them to 4 maybe 6 players tops anyway.
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aussie
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Any ship can be a minesweeper... once.
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Allowing multiple players will also promote AH parties much like the Quake parties, where a small group will get together for some practice and fun. These tend to attract new or inexperienced players and I have personal experience where this has created new accounts.
Preeeecisely. Well said.
DH
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You guys need to read *all* the threads. HT has already said on two different threads now that he plans on supporting H2H, LAN, and free "mini-servers" that will support 4 to 8 people.
I think this should pretty much make everyone happy, maybe even ITMO.;-)
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I just wanna spew.....I'm so sick of guys trying to defend the undefendable...
The 44th SOS will not and will NEVER support this type of action(FH)I'm not the CO but I think he feels the same way I do....
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The 44TH SOS...If Ya See Us....IT'S TOO LATE!!!!