Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: aknimitz on March 08, 2003, 11:44:24 AM
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S! Everyone,
I just want to inquire briefly as to the planesets involved in this TOD. I know it is terribly difficult to strike a good balance in these events. I was on the CM team briefly, and I can account first hand the difficulty that is involved in planning. However, I know that balance is crucial. Without balance, TOD will not survive. No one likes to have the outcome decided before the event even starts (for all practical purposes).
I know that my particular squad was alotted G10s and 190A8s (any combination) along with 1 Me262 for recon.
I know that my particular squad ran into 10+ Tempests at approximately 30K ... and that another LW squad ran into approximately 10+ Tempests as well. That accounts for 20+ Tempests, and the only counter we (LW) have to use is 190A8s and 109G10s?
Was this a mistake providing allied squads with unlimited use of Tempests, or planned to allow two full squads use of Tempests? Given that my squad was restricted to 1 Me262, I suspect perhaps some of the allieds might have been restricted iN Tempest use?
Or did the LW have a full couple of 262 squads?
Thanks for any insight.
S!
Nim
CO, Arabian Knights
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Originally posted by aknimitz
I know that my particular squad was alotted G10s and 190A8s (any combination) along with 1 Me262 for recon.
I know that my particular squad ran into 10+ Tempests at approximately 30K ... and that another LW squad ran into approximately 10+ Tempests as well. That accounts for 20+ Tempests, and the only counter we (LW) have to use is 190A8s and 109G10s?
Nim
CO, Arabian Knights
First to you! But, what's a few Tempest's against all those 109 G-10's. That plane rocks! Not to mention those 190's! They are flying gun ships!
I didn't fly any Tempests nor did my squad, we were just the lowly bomber guys!
:eek:
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While I will admit that the g10 is a real nice ride, the Tempest is the brute of the arena and will out perform and out gun both the LW rides. :)
shamus
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Gunships? You honestly think the 190A8 is even arguably competitive against the tempest? Well, its not :)
The 109G10 is more competitive, and at 30K might even hold an edge, but what are we supposed to be doing at 30K? We had defense of bridges, likely jabo - definitely would not be coming in at 30K.
I just think it is terribly unbalanced. I understand a squad of 'em, especially if we have a squad of 262s. I do not understand 20+ of them. That is not competitive, and when peopl take time out of their Friday night and have no chance of a surviving a successful mission.
Nim
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Originally posted by aknimitz
That is not competitive, and when peopl take time out of their Friday night and have no chance of a surviving a successful mission.
Nim
How about that? I remember a time when I flew in TOD and in fact I flew with the AK's, it seemed like we always had the worst planes possible for the Frame! The answer I got was " We are good and don't have to rely on GOOD Planes to win". I do remember hearing this!
Oh well, water under the bridge. <> to you again and it was really fun in there. At least this time it was! :D
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Hi Nim!
Sorry you guys had a rough time of it last night. The Mongrels did not fair any better. We were all slotted in P-47’s to take out a truck convoy. We were jumped by 262’s, 190’s and G10’s. The fight did not last long.
You know as well as anyone the out come of these frames is often dependent on the orders of the Frame C.O. The LW had 12 262’s at their disposal. They could have been together or separate. I also always ask Frame C.O.'s to represent all the AC so they just don't up in uber ride. You might run into a larger squad or a much smaller one. Just no telling. I also replied to you explaining the plane set here.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81089
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The G10 is more than a match for the tempest at 20+k - no doubt about that. However, when you force a flight to field 190A8s to guard against JABOs, ultimately the G10s will be forced into down & dirty fights.
I know of no quicker way to kill interest in "Tour of Duty" than to create mismatches like this. If I didn't know better, I would think the effort was deliberate, but I don't believe for a second that Daddog would do that.
I will fight any plane in a 190a5 or d9. But an A8 is fairly limited and when it faces a flight of mossies along with 10-12 tempests, it's not even a fight *IF* any effort is to be made concerning execution of orders.
So, just for the record Daddog, what is the rationale for matching A8s against tempests/mossies down low?
curly
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I could have alotted more 262's for this frame but we only had 12 for the whole camp so I only sent up 4. I am kinda suprised allies had that many temp's avalible. Over all I think the axis faired pretty well the Nightmares flattened the factory they went after. =S= nightmares.
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I agree Ice, you guys did well, in the frame. I checked the scores and I see your side did very well indeed. I think that the axis won it. In fact, I will never loose interest in TOD, as I realize that it is just part of the game! You can always count me and my squad in!
:rolleyes:
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Allied
Kills - 64
Assists - 30
Objects destroyed - 91
Deaths - 53
Axis
Kills - 53
Assists - 26
Objects destroyed - 144
Deaths - 61
Differences
Deaths - 18% favor Allies
Assists - 14% favor Allies
Objects - 37 % favor Axis
Deaths - 15% favor Allies
I just peeked at the logs. They don’t register the P-38’s or the B-26’s for some reason, but for what it is worth the number of pilots who flew certain AC were:
Temp – 22
P-47 – 25
P-51 – 33
Mossie – 17
So, just for the record Daddog, what is the rationale for matching A8s against tempests/mossies down low?
Don’t have any. That is not what I am doing as you said. The AC used for both sides were:
P51D, P47D25, P38L, Spit XIV, Tempest V, Mosquito VI, B26 VS Fw190A8, Fw190F8, Me109G10, Me262.
Considering the most of the Allied missions require them to be heavy and lose what alt they have it evens out.
All in all I think the frame went well except for the furbar with the trains and truck convoys that were not running.
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S! Daddog,
I have sent you an email expressing some additional concerns.
Machine, if I didnt know any better, I'd say you were trying to pick a fight? I do not mind having an inferior plane, as long as the inferior plane has a sporting chance. But 190A8s against Tempests is not a fighting chance - it is absolutely the most lopsided planeset one could possible imagine concerning fighter vs fighter. Its grossly faster, turns grossly better, climbs grossly better, dives better, accelerates better and has a better gun package.
The G10 on ther otherhand is a sporting chance plane - but I had to field 190A8s - CO orders.
S!
Nim
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Originally posted by daddog
Don’t have any. That is not what I am doing as you said. The AC used for both sides were:
P51D, P47D25, P38L, Spit XIV, Tempest V, Mosquito VI, B26 VS Fw190A8, Fw190F8, Me109G10, Me262.
Considering the most of the Allied missions require them to be heavy and lose what alt they have it evens out.
All in all I think the frame went well except for the furbar with the trains and truck convoys that were not running. [/B]
Daddog, I trust you. I don't think you had any intention of creating something unbalanced.
However, Pitting A8s/F8s against ponies, jugs, p38s, spit9s tempests and even mossies isn't remotely "balanced." That may well be what the LW had to field (in RL) ... dunno ... But, personally, I'm not interested in historical reenactments if they sacrifice the fun element.
For a frame or two, I'm willing (for the betterment of "Squadron Ops") to pretend I'm a sushi vendor in Hiroshima back in August 1945. That's about what flying A8s against the above group is like. :) Next time, why not change all the A8/F8 skins so they have gigantic bulleyes on both wings? It might be helpful for the allied planes.
And for the record, all tempests were light and came in around 30k.
curly
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Originally posted by aknimitz
S! Daddog,
I have sent you an email expressing some additional concerns.
Machine, if I didnt know any better, I'd say you were trying to pick a fight?
S!
Nim
Oh boy! Here we go! :rolleyes: Just because I post a message about what I think, you take it personal, like a little baby. Even though I did you before I started. Give it a break oh mighty one! Isn't whining about the plane thing bad enough without trying to make it personal thing... gessshhhh...:rolleyes:
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Completely agree with curly's concern. I understand there is an historical element, but when that historical element prevents both sides from enjoying the event, I dunno how good of an idea it is. At least tell me beforehand that Im gonna get an ass-whipping and let me decide if I want to join :D
S!
Nim
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Holy cow Machine ... resorting to name calling? I didnt take anything personal. I stated an objective inquiry, and you respond with something completely unrelated (about how the AKs dont mind being outplaned because we are stronger pilots). What does that have to do with the subject of this post? And I know that in your mind an objective inquiry is whining ... but alas I digress.
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There were 2 squads of Tempests in frame 1, out of 12 squads. They are an appropriate ac for the RAF in late 1944, and are no more unbalancing than the Ta152s we see in setups or the Me262, or the 109D-9s for that matter, not to mention unlimited 109G-10s in most setups I have seen.
Just my thoughts. They are not used in every setup, to see them in some is nice for the guys that like RAF ac? The world doesnt revolve around just LW and US planes.
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Originally posted by aknimitz
PS
Holy cow Machine ... resorting to name calling?
Good Grief, what's your problem, I just stated what you were acting like. If I were going to call you a name, it would really be a choice one, you must know this by now!:p
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Squire, completely agree, as long as we have 2 squads to counter. The Ta152 was not out yet, but the Dora and Me262 were...and we only have received 12 262s.
S!
Nim
PS
Hehe machine - S! Not my intention to argue with you.
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Originally posted by aknimitz
Hehe machine - S! Not my intention to argue with you.
This is a good thing, because you are completely wrong! Thanks
:D
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I see your point, and I cant say it has no merit, but every setup wont be an exact matchup.
The LW had plenty of 190A-8s and 190Fs in late 1944, some Doras, not many. Some 262s sure.
Lets not forget setups where the ac types have favored the LW, there have been plenty where they get mainly high end ac vs Allies. Both sides have their "upscale" events. Fair is fair.
Im not sure what a Tempest does to a 262, wave as it blows by? :) they are hardly equal.
Anyways good fights in frame 1 Cya all up.
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I was allied and I didnt have any chance, my P47 vs 4 109s and 3 190s. Perhaps them 109s and 190s should of been after the tempest not are P47s :D . I still had fun though, was hoping to straff a convoy or maybe a chute :D
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Originally posted by aknimitz
PS
Holy cow Machine ... resorting to name calling? I didnt take anything personal. And I know that in your mind an objective inquiry is whining ... but alas I digress.
You know I just re-read all the posts and upon looking back, it sures looks like whining was going on to me. Now that you mention it.
I know that my particular squad ran into 10+ Tempests at approximately 30K ... and that another LW squad ran into approximately 10+ Tempests as well. That accounts for 20+ Tempests, and the only counter we (LW) have to use is 190A8s and 109G10s?
Was this a mistake providing allied squads with unlimited use of Tempests, or planned to allow two full squads use of Tempests? Given that my squad was restricted to 1 Me262, I suspect perhaps some of the allieds might have been restricted iN Tempest use?
I stated an objective inquiry
This would have ended with how many planes vs how many planes!
But it looks like whining to me! Since you have the ability to read minds, I agree with you! BTW: I thought you were an attorney?
You got a new act? AKNimitz Mind Reader Open For Business! :D
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Hey Nimitz or Curly, can you tell me what grid location (x.x.x) you were at when you ran into the temps?
It's completely unrelated to this thread... I'm just curious about something else.
Thanks!
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Rgr nim I will check my mail. :)
However, Pitting A8s/F8s against ponies, jugs, p38s, spit9s tempests and even mossies isn't remotely "balanced." That may well be what the LW had to field (in RL) ... dunno ... But, personally, I'm not interested in historical reenactments if they sacrifice the fun element.
Well I sure agree fun is a big element in these setup’s. Nim, curly, you both know I appreciate feed back. You both have been around a long time and I always respect your opinion. I have had my share of lousy setup’s and will again I am sure, but I think this is workable. Please realize that if I changed my setup for every 2 or 3 guys that did not agree with me I would be working every day to make changes. If half the other C.O.’s in Squad Operations piped in I certainly would consider making changes.
I will continue to remind Frame C.O.’s to use all their AC and not to favor one over the other.
And again thanks for you input.
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Come to think of it, I think that is why the axis lost the war, we got better planes and good pilots! LOL :D
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You are a special person, Machine.
Daddog, I understand and cannot thank you enough for responding to our questions and concerns. We very much appreciate all the hard work you and the other CM's put into these events for our pleasure.
S!
Nim
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Originally posted by aknimitz
You are a special person, Machine.
Gee, I wish I could say the same for you! But I can't!
If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit!
ROFLMAO
:p
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Originally posted by daddog
Rgr nim I will check my mail. :)
Well I sure agree fun is a big element in these setup’s. Nim, curly, you both know I appreciate feed back. You both have been around a long time and I always respect your opinion. I have had my share of lousy setup’s and will again I am sure, but I think this is workable. Please realize that if I changed my setup for every 2 or 3 guys that did not agree with me I would be working every day to make changes. If half the other C.O.’s in Squad Operations piped in I certainly would consider making changes.
I will continue to remind Frame C.O.’s to use all their AC and not to favor one over the other.
And again thanks for you input.
Good enough, Daddog. Appreciate the comments.
curly
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I flew with a squad of spit14's. We escorted mossies. Mossies stayed low, we stayed semi high(around 10k) and forced them to come down.
Those who came low were slaughtered, we didn't lose a fighter our first flight(one damaged).
Maybe 1 squad tempests tops I say. Even if we flew spitIX's I think we would have been successful.
No D-9's?
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I'm Allied this frame, so no bias here. I totally agree with Nimitz and Curly. Yes, we are trying to "recreate" a scenario, but the bottom line is entertainment. Having unlimited Tempests is a little overboard to me. 190A8s, A5s, F8s are not even a close match for Tempests. Why not limit Tempests like 262s are limited? Maybe instead of 16 for the scenario, give them 25 to be split up amongst the frames or something? Just my 2 cents.
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As I recall the 109s and 190s that were slaughtered by at least one squadron of Tempests (880 Fleet Air Arm) were low and slow as they had just finished bombing a factory group. We dropped on them from 20 and 30K like 16 tons of bricks. In that situation we could have been flying Typhoons at 10K against low and slow Ta-152s and probably still done in most of the Germans, simply because of our alt and speed advantages. I don't think in this particular fight the relative differences between the Tempest and the LW rides was much of a factor.
By the way, we did loose four pilots in that "scuffle", several by self-imposed augers (not used to the "hotness" of the Tempest) and several from the LW.
I can't say anything about the rest of the event, but anytime a squad gets caught with it's pants down (like the P-47s or the Fw-190s we caught), they will get spanked. And that has nothing to do with side-balancing, but more with the decisions of the side CO and the vagaries of war.
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I don't think that Nimitz is referring to having that particular squadron wiped out because of a single group of planes. I think that he is concerned that we as LW only have 12 Me-262's (which are a hot ride as well when flown right) and unlimited Tempests (which are quite possibly the best ride that the Allies have in this setup.). Especially when they are flown correctly. So I do think that the Tempest should be limited. But I am far from one to say limit them to a specific number.
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Originally posted by Holder3
I can't say anything about the rest of the event, but anytime a squad gets caught with it's pants down (like the P-47s or the Fw-190s we caught), they will get spanked. And that has nothing to do with side-balancing, but more with the decisions of the side CO and the vagaries of war.
Ahhh, finally someone see's it like it is. This is really more than a fly around and shoot'em up event. You actually have to plan on what and how you are going to do things.
How you are going to protect your targets or how you are going to attack your targets, where from, how long the enemy can stay up on their tank of gas, how long you can stay up on your tank of gas, how many guys stay up and wait while you fuel up, what alt you fly at, and many other variables.
As, I can remember there are many stories about squadron's that were meet in the air by over-whelming odds and superior strength, but over came that, because of good planing. And this is from the real deal, straight out of the history books.
:D
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But you have to attack ground targets in the event. That's where the allies have the advantage, on the deck. If this were just 20k+ dogfighting, I'de call it close to equal. The object of the LW was to intercept our mossies. We just kept them low, once the LW came down for the mossies we pounced them, they didn't have a chance. Lol, the mossies were shooting them down. I'll take a group of spit14's against any number of 109's or 190's low.
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and you guys wondered why I didn't wanna be a Squad Ops CM anymore. ;)
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Originally posted by Machine
Gee, I wish I could say the same for you! But I can't!
If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit!
ROFLMAO
:p
Me thinks Machine may have some personal issues here :)
shamus
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Originally posted by Shamus
Me thinks Machine may have some personal issues here :)
shamus
Me thinks you should get a mind reading business too! :D
Or you could always stop thinking! LOL
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So the basic argument is that no matter what the setup, the sides should be roughly equal. In the specific time period, if one side has an "uber plane", then it should be limited. I believe the design CMs try to do this (I will certainly try to), however, in some historical periods this just doesn't work out. In a North African Squad Ops there is no way the LW would stand for having Bf-109Fs limited just because all the Allies had to offer were P-40Es. In a Pacific matchup would the Allies have to limit the numbers of F6Fs and Corsairs just because the Japanese over Rabaul didn't have anything better than an A6M5b? Or would we start throwing in hot aircraft that aren't historically correct? I don't think we would really want to go too far down that road. :rolleyes:
Considering that the choice of aircraft is limited (I would love to see more early war aircraft :cool: ) on both sides, the CMs try to do what they can to meet playability issues and historical issues. I believe daddog decided to add the Fw-190A5 to the mix to try and help the LW with the playability issue :eek:. However, if players insist on flying without escorts, or low and slow over "Dodge", then woe is them and there is nothing that the CM can, or should do, to help that situation. :D
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Originally posted by Holder3
Considering that the choice of aircraft is limited (I would love to see more early war aircraft :cool: ) on both sides, the CMs try to do what they can to meet playability issues and historical issues. I believe daddog decided to add the Fw-190A5 to the mix to try and help the LW with the playability issue :eek:. However, if players insist on flying without escorts, or low and slow over "Dodge", then woe is them and there is nothing that the CM can, or should do, to help that situation. :D
While we are on the subject, I would love to see some B=24's in the game! After all, we had more of these type of heavy bombers than we did B-17's.
Another interesting fact is that the P-47 did some 10,000 sorties {this number could even be 100,000, I don't remember the whole artical I read, but I know it was a lot compaired to the number lost!} during the war and they only lost something like 1% of them. The reason: They were one tuff sucker! A pilot with a p-47 was a happy camper. The other side had a terrible time of shooting them down, because they were a flying tank! Nothing like the game p-47. Cause if it were, boy would the complaints be rolling in now! :p
I'm happy!
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I was one of the Tempests, (I erased my films couple days ago cleaning up hardrive to try too increase performance of my computer). I recall being about 22k in altitude and being quite concernd that 109g10s were going to jump me any moment.
That our opponents were lower than us was a welcome sight. Holder's assesssment is quite true and frankly, in this particular engagement, we could have been flying almost anything.
The Tempest is an enjoyable plane to fly. In the end though we did not land too many of them.
Originally posted by Holder3
As I recall the 109s and 190s that were slaughtered by at least one squadron of Tempests (880 Fleet Air Arm) were low and slow as they had just finished bombing a factory group. We dropped on them from 20 and 30K like 16 tons of bricks. In that situation we could have been flying Typhoons at 10K against low and slow Ta-152s and probably still done in most of the Germans, simply because of our alt and speed advantages. I don't think in this particular fight the relative differences between the Tempest and the LW rides was much of a factor.
By the way, we did loose four pilots in that "scuffle", several by self-imposed augers (not used to the "hotness" of the Tempest) and several from the LW.
I can't say anything about the rest of the event, but anytime a squad gets caught with it's pants down (like the P-47s or the Fw-190s we caught), they will get spanked. And that has nothing to do with side-balancing, but more with the decisions of the side CO and the vagaries of war.
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Sure wish you would have keep that film! :cool:
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Holder3 that was my squad your boys bounced in the North. You caught us refueling. Our diminished hi-cap did its best to stop you but as you said when you guys came screaming in with alt .. well it was messy. We lost 8 in that fracas but took down 4. Fortunately 3 of our Jabos got away and hit the factory again.
It was nasty and truthfully my guys thought it was the best frame yet in SqOps. Very good counterpoint to our hitting your factory 27 strong where we only lost 1 plane to compression and killed 3 P51s (5 of ours tangled with the 3 while rest attacked and capped factory).
So when you showed up it really made the palms sweat and heart race. I know I was dodging and jinking all over the place and twice a Spit locked on and pulled every trick I knew to lose him (prevented me from killing 2 mossies).
Was a good fight.
First attack on the Factory was 10 F8s, 4 A8s, and 13 G10s. We lost 1 and bagged 3 P51s. You bounced us and we lost 8 but bagged 4. And at the end of the night only 6 planes were left operational out of 28 .. 12 others were too damaged to fly till end frame or crashed.
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Excellent account of what went on Ghost! Made me feel like I was there! Very cool!