Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Virage on March 10, 2003, 09:43:26 AM
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http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=384604
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Torture is kindness. War is Peace. Ignorance is Strength.
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I'm trying hard to feel bad for 'em, but it's just not happening.
SOB
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"engaging in culturally humiliating practices such as having them kicked by female officers."
That's why I support women's athletics. Soccer develops strong quads and calves.
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The funniest part of that article is the last paragraph:
President Bush appeared to encourage extra-judicial solutions in his State of the Union address in January when he talked of al-Qa'ida members being arrested or meeting "a different fate". "Let's put it this way," he said in a tone that appalled many, "they are no longer a problem to the United States and our friends and allies."
Any non-idiot plainly knows that Bush meant "dead" as in killed in battle. You can't read that to mean "arrested and then meet a different fate." I wasn't aware that death in battle was an extra-judicial solution during war. I'm glad that was cleared up for me.
And frankly, the only appalling thing about Bush's statement was its terrible delivery style. It made me wince.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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those thousands of people on the WTC suffered blunt force trauma too.. paybacks a squeak, ain't it?
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Your average Taliban soldier had nothing to do with WTC and was just some illiterate farm-boy with an AK-47.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Your average Taliban soldier had nothing to do with WTC and was just some illiterate farm-boy with an AK-47.
That would gladly empty his magazine on any Western he can possibly see.....to begin with.
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Your average Taliban soldier had nothing to do with WTC and was just some illiterate farm-boy with an AK-47.
I suppose your average SS soldier had nothing to do with the death camps. When you blindly serve a system of leadership that supports terrorism, you are not innocent.
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I also doubt they chose to interrogate an "average taliban soldier".
SOB
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Payback is a squeak...but its no excuse for torture.
You never get any reliable information from torture...it has been proven time and time again.
I'm sure they have very effective truth serums out there now...forget torture and get reliable info that way.
I doubt this is true anyway...I certainly HOPE it isn't.
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That would gladly empty his magazine on any Western he can possibly see.....to begin with.
Really? I saw a program by a Western journalist who went 'undercover' in Afghanistan shortly before the war. He talked to Taliban soldiers at a position overlooking a check-point. They weren't supposed to talk to him and he was breaking the rules if his visa by doing it, but they were friendly and hospitable. They not once emptied their magazines, into him or anyone else.
Not quite the heathens we're led to believe. The system was corrupt and barbaric, but the average soldier was just that.
. When you blindly serve a system of leadership that supports terrorism, you are not innocent.
You think Afghanistan was some uniform den of terrorists and their supporters? It was deeply tribal, with different warlords changing sides many times to suit their own personal agenda. It was all about power and money. Many found themselves on the wrong side of the conflict post-WTC, but six months earlier they might have been Northern Alliance.
There is a huge difference between your average Taliban soldier and the Al Queda operatives, allowed to operate out of Afghanistan.
I suppose your average SS soldier had nothing to do with the death camps.
A more accurate analogy would be "your average German wehrmacht soldier had nothing to do with the death camps". Or are all German armed forces personnel guilty of war crimes by association?
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Originally posted by Curval
I doubt this is true anyway...I certainly HOPE it isn't.
I wouldn't be surprised if these two men were tortured to death. The question is whether such torture was sponsored or approved of by the United States government, and I doubt that. Frankly, if you're going to use torture as a matter of policy, you don't go around changing death certificates from "heart attack" into "homicide." It just doesn't make any sense.
Certainly it appears that criminal and abhorant behavior occurred here. I can't believe the flippant attitude some of the posters exhibit toward torture, especially when you consider that the consequences of torture (loss of moral authority, an enemy more likely to fight to the death rather than face torture, lack of reliable information) in this case probably outweigh the benefits.
What annoys me is the Independent's lame and transparent attempt to link these torture deaths to Bush Administration policy through questionable evidence such as a misinterpreted sound bites.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I wouldn't be surprised if these two men were tortured to death. The question is whether such torture was sponsored or approved of by the United States government, and I doubt that. Frankly, if you're going to use torture as a matter of policy, you don't go around changing death certificates from "heart attack" into "homicide." It just doesn't make any sense.
Certainly it appears that criminal and abhorant behavior occurred here. I can't believe the flippant attitude some of the posters exhibit toward torture, especially when you consider that the consequences of torture (loss of moral authority, an enemy more likely to fight to the death rather than face torture, lack of reliable information) in this case probably outweigh the benefits.
What annoys me is the Independent's lame and transparent attempt to link these torture deaths to Bush Administration policy through questionable evidence such as a misinterpreted sound bites.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Well put...
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
What annoys me is the Independent's lame and transparent attempt to link these torture deaths to Bush Administration policy through questionable evidence such as a misinterpreted sound bites.
-- Todd/Leviathn
SHACK! (Thks Funked)
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Originally posted by gofaster
"engaging in culturally humiliating practices such as having them kicked by female officers."
Isn't funny how leftist america haters overlook the evils of other cultures when an opportubity presents itself to bash amreeka. I wonder what do they have to say about the backwards repressive traditions of fundementalist islam towards women that made being kicked by a woman so "culturally humiliating"...? Why are they justifying, rationalizing and legitimizing such repressive attitudes towards women by citing them as real humanitarian concerns for out islamic extremist POWs? toejam that's like saying an SS camp guard's rights were violated if he was tried or jailed or restrained by a jew... Degenerates...
Do you think these degenerates would protest mistreatment of US POW on grounds of humiliationg treatment or even turtoure? Perhaps we allready know how the twisted leftist mind reacts to that, diddly you jane fonda....
Death To Amreeka!
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(http://www.amaesport.com/gif_ani/deporte/pagina6/bobber.gif)
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Seems we're a bit out of practice. There was a day when the superpowers could be counted on to extract information from anyone and still have a breathing hunk of flesh left afterwards. Seems we're going to have to ask the Germans to teach us the fine art of torture again.
MiniD
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actually exact retribution would involve being doused in burning aviation fuel and being dropped from a thousand foot height. Anything less is merciful to the point of coddling
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
SHACK! (Thks Funked)
It's Toad's, and he got it from USAF bombing practice. :)
Also I'd like to comment that these deaths make me like women's soccer a lot more.
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Originally posted by hawk220
those thousands of people on the WTC suffered blunt force trauma too.. paybacks a squeak, ain't it?
And those were probably the lucky ones:( . Yeah, I'm having a problem working up any tears for the enemy. What really irritates me is the attiudes of the bleedin' hearts mentioned in the above-mentioned news article. Why they are so upset about Bush's practices, and seemingly not about Hussein's, et. al.....I don't understand.
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Torture is irrelevant.
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Sandman, your subtle .gif useage makes me smile.
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Originally posted by slimm50
Why they are so upset about Bush's practices, and seemingly not about Hussein's, et. al.....I don't understand.
Well thats simple. Bush is like Hitler while, apparently, Saddam Hussein is not.....
Death To Amreeka!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well thats simple. Bush is like Hitler while, apparently, Saddam Hussein is not.....
Death To Amreeka!
DOH! It was right there in front of me all the time. What was I thinking?!?! Thanks for setting me straight.;)
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Originally posted by Mini D
Seems we're a bit out of practice. There was a day when the superpowers could be counted on to extract information from anyone and still have a breathing hunk of flesh left afterwards. Seems we're going to have to ask the Germans to teach us the fine art of torture again.
MiniD
ROTFLOL! Thks!
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Originally posted by funkedup
It's Toad's, and he got it from USAF bombing practice. :)
Also I'd like to comment that these deaths make me like women's soccer a lot more.
Oh, I thought you got it from Janes F15, remember the WO saying "SHACK" when you hit the target?
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Torture, what torture? We just helped them to see the light .
And if it was torture, why not, they're only dogs . Can ya torture dogs?
To say the least, they were only 2 and if ya see it in the right way it was an accident, so what????
Why we bring them to camps outside our USA or just let our democratic foreign friends do the 'interviews??
Please ask later!
Ok now, lets go Iraq to free their people from Saddam Hussein better know as Mr. Torture himself. :D
Regards Blitz
Morality? Personally i like it as a toy.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Your average Taliban soldier had nothing to do with WTC and was just some illiterate farm-boy with an AK-47.
LOL
yeah, right - only because the couldn't
next you'll compare the average terorist to the average US/Brit soldier.....
I hope they were "questioned" one finger at a time .... If 10 die in "questioning" that may save one innocent life .. it was a fair trade.
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slimm50: Why they are so upset about Bush's practices, and seemingly not about Hussein's, et. al.....I don't understand.
It's purely pragmatic. People are much less concerned that some remote backward country is ruled by an abusive government than the fact that their own country is moving towards abusive government.
miko
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I feel more sympathy for the pigs they had to kill to bury with these poor lil Taliban boys :p
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Originally posted by LePaul
I feel more sympathy for the pigs they had to kill to bury with these poor lil Taliban boys :p
LOL!!!! :D
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Originally posted by Eagler
LOL
yeah, right - only because the couldn't
next you'll compare the average terorist to the average US/Brit soldier.....
I hope they were "questioned" one finger at a time .... If 10 die in "questioning" that may save one innocent life .. it was a fair trade.
This just in... Al-Qaeda and Taliban are not the same thing.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
This just in... Al-Qaeda and Taliban are not the same thing.
are they on opposite sides or do they have a common enemy?
they are one in the same to me and the safety of mine
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Taliban Invited Al-Qeada into its territory.
Al Qaeda funded much Taliban training and infrastructure development.
Taliban gave Al-Qaeda vast training camps.
Taliban help guide recruits into Al-Qaeda within afghanistan.
Osama Bin Laden apparently married one of Mullah Omars daughters.
Taliban refused to arrest or detain Bin Laden and gang after 911.
Mullah Omar and Bin Laden reoprtedly were fishing and hunting buddies.
And a few others here and there..
Of couse they arent the SAME EXACT SINGLE ENTITY but the links are extensive and obvious - any attempt to deny or lessen that is idiotic and especially in this context should be viewd with suspiction as to the persons real intent...
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Blitz..please just ignore the "I'm glad we tortured them" crowd and read what Dead Man Flying wrote. He summed it up quite nicely I thought. Please also note the fact that the reporting of this incident makes it looks as if it was a government advocated act (if indeed it happened)...when it is much more likely to be individuals acting on their own volition. You seem to want to believe it was Bush who ordered this to be done, effectively falling "hook, line and sinker" into the trap of believing everything you read.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Seems we're going to have to ask the Germans to teach us the fine art of torture again.
No need, the CIA learned a lot in Nam...they also learned not to leave any survivors to tell about it.
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Originally posted by Curval
Blitz..please just ignore the "I'm glad we tortured them" crowd and read what Dead Man Flying wrote. He summed it up quite nicely I thought. Please also note the fact that the reporting of this incident makes it looks as if it was a government advocated act (if indeed it happened)...when it is much more likely to be individuals acting on their own volition. You seem to want to believe it was Bush who ordered this to be done, effectively falling "hook, line and sinker" into the trap of believing everything you read.
Curval, i feel sorry here but why in hell these guys were brought to places outside the USA?
And do you realy think torture isn't used on daily bases after people are caught accused of being terrorists, terrorist supporters or supporters of terrorist supporters?
There are lots of secret groups who can do that. CIA and others.
And much better, foreign friends are used to do the dirty work too.
After 9/11 everything works.
And if Bush knows about? No president in no country ever knows about- you got your boys.....
It's not that article Curval, wrote this by chance yesterday:
Go deal with your allies first and stop them torture people than i'll cue in asap and please ask your presi Bush to also use human rights for people who are accused to be Al Queida members and stop torture them too.
Imho Blitz
There many ways to torture people even without evidence
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Originally posted by MrLars
No need, the CIA learned a lot in Nam...they also learned not to leave any survivors to tell about it.
That was 30 years ago. I believe they are out of practice. hell... anyone that knew how to do it well has retired by now. The Germans are the only ones who respect the true art of torcher enough to pass it down from one generation to another. Well.. them and the Chinese who have taken it to a religious level.
MiniD
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its's sensory deprivation.. if anyone really cares to look it up
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Why they are so upset about Bush's practices, and seemingly not about Hussein's, et. al.....I don't understand.
I don't know, maybe it's because Hussein is a recognised genocidal maniac and Bush, as supposed leader of the free world... isn't?
You can't stand on the moral high ground condemning others, while carrying out the same acts themselves. There's a word for that.
Grunherz, I'll just edit your post to help it make a little more sense:
Taliban leadership Invited Al-Qeada into its territory.
Al Qaeda funded much Taliban training and infrastructure development.
Taliban leadership gave Al-Qaeda vast training camps.
Taliban leadership help guide recruits into Al-Qaeda within afghanistan.
Osama Bin Laden apparently married one of Mullah Omars (part fot eh Taliban leadership) daughters.
Taliban leadership refused to arrest or detain Bin Laden and gang after 911.
Mullah Omar (Taliban leadership) and Bin Laden reoprtedly were fishing and hunting buddies.
Strangely, the foot soldiers of the Nazi regime were not prosecuted for war crimes. Under your ridiculous notion of guilt throughout the chain of command, the Nurembourg trial would have involved several million people.
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And who says we have detained every single ex Taliban soldier, or even that I agrued that approach? The relatively few people we do have in custody are obviously leadership and high value personell - plus strictly Al-Qaeda terrorists all of which should of course be jailed.
So what the hell is your point?
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Originally posted by Mini D
That was 30 years ago. I believe they are out of practice. hell... anyone that knew how to do it well has retired by now. The Germans are the only ones who respect the true art of torcher enough to pass it down from one generation to another. Well.. them and the Chinese who have taken it to a religious level.
MiniD
The SS, Gestapo and SD bastards sure had absolutely no scruple about every form of torture but some time has gone by now and the developpment of torture never stopped because bastards
never die out, whereever they may be born at.
Regards Blitz
People who torture are sick and people who order torture are criminals
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such as having them kicked by female officers.
Don't some people pay for that kind of stuff?
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Originally posted by blitz
And if it was torture, why not, they're only dogs . Can ya torture dogs?
Torture who you want, touch my dog I'll shoot ya!
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Originally posted by Mini D
That was 30 years ago. I believe they are out of practice. hell... anyone that knew how to do it well has retired by now. The Germans are the only ones who respect the true art of torcher enough to pass it down from one generation to another. Well.. them and the Chinese who have taken it to a religious level.
MiniD
I think you'll find it's all still on the curriculum at Fort Benning School of the Americas. ;)
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God bless the School of the Americas!!! :D
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think you'll find it's all still on the curriculum at Fort Benning School of the Americas.
Riiiiiight.
Scenario:
Gitmo Bay, CIA Intelligence officer to the Taliban/AQ detainee debrief team:
"No joy with the towelheads?"
Debriefers: "Nope.. scurvy camel diddlyers decided to clam up when they read in the Red Cross supplied papers the liberals were tryin to get 'em loose."
CIA: "Really. Ok.. lets haul a couple of 'em out, rumor to the press we passed 'em to the isralis, and then let it leak that they died under torture in tel-aviv. Make sure the article gets into the papers the red cross gives the resta the towelheads.'
1 week later..
CIA: "Any luck with the sand clammers?"
Debriefers: "worked like a charm. all we gotta do is tell abdul he's flyin el-al tomorrow if he don't talk today..."
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LOL !
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If we are really tortureing pow's we have sunk to the level of the north vietnamese and the nazis. Who are we to attack saddam for tortureing people when our government might be allowing it. If we sink to the level of these scumbags we have come no further then they have out of the caves. I would rather die in a terrorist attack then live knowing my government is murdering POW's. /and im sure there are people out there that would love to have these people tortured that call themselves good christians. have you learned nothing from your own religion?
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Originally posted by Dowding
The system was corrupt and barbaric, but the average soldier was just that.
So the system is corrupt and barbaric, but the soldiers within the system were just "that"? ... I don't get it.
Probably would like to review Japan army training systems post WWI and his behaviour in WWII. Then come back with "average soldier" and "system".
Cheers,
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Woo for fascism!
US Goverment seems to have became a bunch of hypocrits.. no wonder that certain countries are in disbelief at anything they say.
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So the system is corrupt and barbaric, but the soldiers within the system were just "that"? ... I don't get it.
No. The system may be corrupt and barbaric, but that does not mean every soldier shares those characteristics.
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Dowding, I appreciate your concerns for the captured enemy. I would have been the same at your age. :D But I'm twice your age, and in the time since have come to understand that whereas in civilian life we have luxuries like human rights, peace marches, vegetarians waving anti-war slogans, and women joining hands around American air bases, War is played by an entirely different set of rules. By the way, that's why the prisoners have been taken to an undisclosed third country. The CIA does not want ACLU banner wavers outside the cell windows, waving signs saying "Honk if you think the terrorists should go free" to all the passing Buicks, Pontiacs and MACK trucks.
War is hell, and there's nothing we can do to change that.
Watch the movie Fall From Grace (1994) (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0109768). It makes my point quite well.
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I've read a book about interrogation during the Vietnam War. It said torture isn't very reliable because the prisoners will tell you what you want to hear.
A more reliable method was to (1) make some kind of deal with the prisoner- In exchange for some information, you wouldn't ask about his family or close friends. (2) Search for the lie. If you can figure out what he (or she) is lying about, you can focus your questions around that point. Something like high pressure salesmanship.
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Originally posted by Dowding
No. The system may be corrupt and barbaric, but that does not mean every soldier shares those characteristics.
I would say that a corrupt and barbaric system will produce corrupt and barbaric soldiers. I'm ready to admit exceptions to the rule, but the rule is that a corrupt and barbaric system will have similar values in educating its people and even more, in training its soldiers (thus the Japan post WWI cite).
In the sense of your first post, not every, but the average soldier will be more likely a barbaric and corrupt product of the system than not.
On a side note, this does not justify torture.
On another side note, I don't think making a woman treat them hard is torture whatsoever. We believe in woman and men being equals, don't we?.
Cheers,
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Scary.
I thought some people in here were nice people.
Now I realize that they're of the same material as the inquisitors and people who love to watch public executions and the like.
Oh well.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
If we are really tortureing pow's we have sunk to the level of the north vietnamese and the nazis.
Some of you people are seriousy weird.
Lets see...torture captured terrorist to get them to reveal information about other terrorists ...slaughter and butcher 6 million jews, men, women, small children by gassing them in huge industrialized camps...
Yup same thing really. Same level. Yup.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Scary.
I thought some people in here were nice people.
Now I realize that they're of the same material as the inquisitors and people who love to watch public executions and the like.
Oh well.
Santa - so just how DO you deal with criminals who have participated in the worst terrorist atrocity the world has ever known? Offer them a cup of tea and ask them to talk about their childhoods so that we can find out what motivated them to do it? Ask them if they were abused as children, and then say "Ah, that would explain it!", and then let them go?
Anyone who gets involved in an organisation like AQ surely knows the consequences of being caught.
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
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War is played by an entirely different set of rules.
Tell that to the Japanese held POWs in WW2.
"It's ok chaps. All this beating, torture, starvation and murder is quite legitimate because war is played by entirely different set of rules. So let's knuckle down to the task of dying in agony and not complain."
I guarantee you this - you'd be carrying your nose in a hankerchief, even though the survivors are 80+ y/o.
Torture has no place anywhere. Not in war or peacetime.
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LOL.
You guys.
You already KNOW the answer to this.
If it happened as/during torture, the people who did it will be punished by the US military/government.
THERE'S the difference.
But go on pretending; you seem to enjoy it so.
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Well Toad, read the thread and you'd see we're arguing over whether torture should be used at all.
It seems to me that many on this board advocate its use.
Is torture condoned by the US government? I shouldn't think so.
Do many on this board think it should? Quite definitely.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Some of you people are seriousy weird.
Lets see...torture captured terrorist to get them to reveal information about other terrorists ...slaughter and butcher 6 million jews, men, women, small children by gassing them in huge industrialized camps...
Yup same thing really. Same level. Yup.
Is it a rhetorical question ?
It's exactly the same.
You're definitively far from being a good christian if you've ever been one.
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No, "torture" shouldn't be used at all and it is NOT the policy of the US government to do so.
If this was caused by torture, the responsible people will be punished. That's what makes the comparisons to the North Vietnamese and Nazis simply ludicrous.
Now, all you guys need to do is define "torture". We all think we know it "when we see it" but if you delve into the subject, consulting Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, some people think sleep deprivation is "torture".
Pressure is going to be used to get information. Some forms of pressure are "acceptable" and others are not. I doubt there's a single approved list of "pressure methods" out there.
Do you know of one?
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Sleep deprivation can have some strange effect and can be use to brainwash someone.
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Originally posted by straffo
Sleep deprivation can have some strange effect and can be use to brainwash someone.
Is that why Bishops hate us Rooks so much?.....Uhh...you mean Sleep nad not Sheep.... :D
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Originally posted by straffo
Is it a rhetorical question ?
It's exactly the same.
You're definitively far from being a good christian if you've ever been one.
Laying off personal attacks on me and/or my family seems to be really difficult for you straffo.
I'd answer your post, but I dont understand what you are trying to say.
I think any attempt to compare the holocaust to the torture of individual terrorists is a disgrace. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth, it is wrong ...cest wrougue or whatever that'd be in french.
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Originally posted by straffo
Sleep deprivation can have some strange effect and can be use to brainwash someone.
Up late again, straffo?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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You fail again to understand what is obviously simple :
if you act like a Nazi ... you are a Nazi.
And I don't think any good christian could share your view of the "rational" use of torture.
Do you know that your sentence was used as a defense argument at Nuremberg ?
torture captured terrorist to get them to reveal information about other terrorists
DMF : it's only 16:45 here ;)
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Originally posted by straffo
You fail again to understand what is obviously simple :
if you act like a Nazi ... you are a Nazi.
*sigh* another idiotic statement. The logic is so flawed I honestly dont know where to begin arguing with it.
Lets try this:
If the nazis lied, and you lie, does that make you a nazi straffo?
If the nazis murdered 6 million innocent civilians and you kill two prisoners, does that make you a nazi straffo?
If the nazis built several autobahns across their country, and your government builds several autobahns across your country, does that make your government a nazi government?
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When you speak of logic ... it remind me a thread were you explained your own personall view on scientific method it was very amusing.
Wasn't this discution subject about torture or was it about highway and lie ?
If the nazis murdered 6 million innocent civilians and you kill two prisoners, does that make you a nazi straffo?
it make you a nazi.
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Originally posted by straffo
it make you a nazi.
`
What about the other two examples straffo? I cant help but notice that you ignored them...
So which is it? Do you admit that your statement was ludicruous, or will we see you argue that everyone who lies is a nazi?
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It's time for me to ask a question :
How does a lieing Nazi compare to a muderer Nazi ?
How does a highway builder Nazi compare to a muderer Nazi ?
Apple and orange you know ?
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Originally posted by straffo
It's time for me to ask a question :
How does a lieing Nazi compare to a muderer Nazi ?
How does a highway builder Nazi compare to a muderer Nazi ?
Apple and orange you know ?
I dont know straffo. You're the one saying "if you act like a nazi, you are a nazi". I could ask you how a person badmouthing another nation on a BB (like Yeager or Hangtime ...when you called them a nazi) compare to a nazi murdering 6 million innocent civilians...because I sure as **** dont see that connection.
BUT YOU DO.
SO...Nice try to weazel out of the question. Right now you have two options, either
a) admit that your initial statement was hopelessly wrong, and you are way out of line accusing everyone of being a nazi or
b) argue that anyone acting like a nazi are a nazi...and since the nazis lied, anyone lying must be a nazi too...according to your own logic.
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Rotfl :)
I hope you understand your own post.
FYI I didn't try to expand the perimeter of the discution to the Highway builder or the liar.
You made alone made this stupid analogie.
Now if you want to explain me how christian is it (*) to torture some POWs I'm ready to listen.
I'm waiting your demonstration please try to avoid diverting.
(*) and non-nazi
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torture is wrong and counterproductive on many levels.
only sadistic stupid people can pretend it is useful.
this is the non moralistic approach.
if you condone torture and think you are a christian you missed the whole point. really
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Now, all you guys need to do is define "torture". We all think we know it "when we see it" but if you delve into the subject, consulting Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, some people think sleep deprivation is "torture".
Oh please don't side-step into the realm of semantics, Toad. You know exactly the kind of torture we're talking about and it's been described to you by the proponents of that approach in this very thread.
We're talking about the 'getting medieval on your ass', Marsellus Wallace type of torture. ;)
I'm not entirely sure of which point your arguing against, BTW.
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You may be surprised at who condones torture...
people like Alan Dershowitz (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/17/60minutes/main324751.shtml)
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A question for the "oh its so wrong"-crowd.
The Israelis have a special law they call "the ticking bomb clause" or something like that (in Hebrew presumably). Basically, it is a law that says that "physical persuation" is allowed in certain circumstances (for example, if a terrorist has hidden a "ticking" bomb in a city, security forces are allowed to use extraordinary means to get him to give the location of the bomb). Personally I think that is a good and reasonable law. It is a shame there is a need for such a law though.
But anyway. The basic idea is sound and reasonable. Picture if you will a situation where an Al Queida terrorist has hidden a nuke somewhere in Washington DC, the police manage to grab the terrorist, but he refuses to say anything before he has his lawyer present. Do you want to go with option a) wait for his lawyer to show up, and play by the book, or option b) torture him to get the location of the bomb in time to defuse it.
(and please stay focused on the issue and not sidetrack into some obscure "even if we did use torture we cant know for sure he would be telling the truth")
The question is very simple. Can torture be acceptable in the hidden nuke scenario described above?
Take this terrorist leader they captured a couple of days ago...noticed that he has started talking already? OF COURCE they are torturing him, and when you consider that this terrorist is the guy who actually planned 9-11, it is pretty damn understandable why they are doing it too. Simply because we have strong reasons to suspect that there are terrorist attacks being in progress right now, and this guy probably planned them all.
Now, torture is far from the most effective way of extracting information from someone. But it is the fastest way. If you have weeks or months to extract the info, torture would be plain stupid. It would be much better to use the sleep deprivation/drugs/break down -combination. But when you need the information fast...like really fast, it is the only option really...no matter how bad that sounds it is true under some circumstances.
As for losing the moral high ground...
The opposition here are using suicide bombers who walk up to mothers with baby carriages before they detonate their explosive belts. They are hijacking passenger airliners and diving them into tall buildings...remember. Its pretty f*cking hard to lose the moral high ground against these guys. And standing idly by when some pakistani intel officer is roughing up a known al Queida terrorist for information is not even in the same ballpark as that.
Get real. If the US would start hijacking Iraqi airliners and diving them into mosques, then you could start yapping about losing the moral high ground.
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While I was personally against torture, there is a time and place. Just remember Daniel Pearl was a non-combatant, and his grisly death did nothing to favor any terrorist in my eyes.
These people are animals, and should be put down just like the rabid animals they are.
They should all be buried in pork sausage casings.
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Dowding, look....... it isn't semantics.
The number one point is that this isn't "state sponsored torture". If these guys were in fact "tortured" to death outside of what the US considers .... what....... "fair interogation techniques" then the people responsible will be prosecuted and punished.
That right there makes it different than the Nazis or the North Vietnamese, where the perpetrators would probably be given a medal and promoted.
So that whole argument is just dross.
As to the comment about "define torture" there's attorneys in the US that make the case that their imprisoned clients are being tortured if they don't have cable TV in their cell.
Now, I don't know about you but I don't call that torture.
Sleep deprivation? It's OK by me.
Branding with hot irons? Nope, not OK.
Branding a prisoner's child with hot irons while the prisoner is made to watch? Nope not OK.
And once again, those posters that are having a hissy fit about these two prisoners dying... knowing that the US government will investigate and prosecute...... stands in stark contrast to these very same posters' ability to turn a totally blind eye to what's going on in Hussein's prisons where there is indeed government sponsored torture.
What's that word again?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
The question is very simple. Can torture be acceptable in the hidden nuke scenario described above?
[/B]
Of course it would be acceptable in the above scenario. What I find repugnant is the rather flippant attitude I've seen toward torture here -- a "good, I'm glad" kind of attitude that doesn't speak at all to the scenario you're describing. Torture should be the last resort under the extremely dire circumstances you've described, where no other possible options exist given the time. It should not be a first resort; it should be a means to an end and not the end itself. Torture, if anything, is a means to extract information and not to punish for past deeds or misdeeds.
In any event, dead men don't talk. If the goal of the dead Taliban prisoners' interrogators was to unleash the secrets in their heads, I'm guessing they didn't do a very good job of it.
Get real. If the US would start hijacking Iraqi airliners and diving them into mosques, then you could start yapping about losing the moral high ground.
Appearances matter. People expect wacko fundamentalist terrorists to do crazy, immoral things. They don't expect America to go wantonly torturing prisoners left and right without just cause to do so.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Dowding! I was getting ready for a long typing session, but Hortlund and Mr. Toad have saved me a job.
I don't really have any sympathy with AQ terrorists. That could have been me up that WTC, or in one of those planes. And to rub salt into the wounds, these murderers are deemed to be martyrs. I would give the CIA a free rein to get the information they want as they see fit. Although I do concede that killing the guy would not be cricket.
We need a brain dump of KSM, and I think that's best left to his captors, the CIA. As to exactly what treatment KSM will get, an earlier report said he might get "a bit of smacky-face". A full report of the treatment KSM can expect (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F03%2F09%2Fwalqa309.xml) was published in the Daily Telegraph a couple of days ago.
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Completly wrong Hortlung.
It's clearly forbidden by Israel laws.
Beetle should I understand you agree with torture ?
I mean real torture not a lack of TV channel like said Toad :).
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Originally posted by Toad
LOL.
You guys.
You already KNOW the answer to this.
If it happened as/during torture, the people who did it will be punished by the US military/government.
THERE'S the difference.
But go on pretending; you seem to enjoy it so.
Roflmao,
that's exactly 1 point why your gouvernment might not support the Internatinal Court in Den Haag .
This morality bla, bla of Bush is rediculous.
USA is a nation just like a hundred others, just bigger.It has good things and bad things but no rights to jugde the world all alone.
Regards Blitz
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Originally posted by davidpt40
I've read a book about interrogation during the Vietnam War. It said torture isn't very reliable because the prisoners will tell you what you want to hear.
Heh, that's great news and i bet Mr. Saddam read all that CIA vietnam torture books.
So he sure would use your Nr. 2 method as we all know what smartprettythang he is :D
Regards Blitz
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straffo - if you read that Telegraph report, you will see that the prisoner gets roughed up. Not a job I would want to do. The prisoner is subject to sleep deprivation, lights and white noise. Hell, even our SAS have to go through that in training. Always remember - whatever the CIA metes out to KSM, it's only 0.00001% of the cruelty meted out by AQ on 9/11 and in the time since.
When the prisoner gives the information being demanded, the treatment should be eased.
Of course I don't like the idea of torture, but this is war - needs must etc....
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I understand you beetle but I disagree partially I cannot support any form of interrogation leaving permanent physical/psychological scar(*) .
(*) I didn't search the proper english term for "sequelle"
I don't mean I'm against some form of brutality to have a vital information if needed.
It's just that it's pretty hard to say where it start and where it end
So I prefer banning completly the usage of torture.
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Blitz, Straffo...you think it is better to let the nuke detonate and kill millions?
It is a really simple question...why are you avoiding it?
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Again you are changing the perimeter of the discution...
Now make a final choice : restrict or expand the context.
look at the link posted above
The FBI has anonymously leaked to the press the belief inside the bureau that torture may be an option. But Lewis Schiliro, former New York bureau director, warns of problems with torture.
“If anybody had the ability to prevent the events of Sept. 11… they would have gone to whatever length…The problem becomes, where do we draw that line?” he tells Wallace.
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Picture if you will a situation where an Al Queida terrorist has hidden a nuke somewhere in Washington DC, the police manage to grab the terrorist, but he refuses to say anything before he has his lawyer present. Do you want to go with option a) wait for his lawyer to show up, and play by the book, or option b) torture him to get the location of the bomb in time to defuse it.
(and please stay focused on the issue and not sidetrack into some obscure "even if we did use torture we cant know for sure he would be telling the truth")
The question is very simple. Can torture be acceptable in the hidden nuke scenario described above?
I'm asking for your personal opinion. Would it be ok to torture mr terrorist in this example?
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You people claiming the US tortures cracks me up. We "break" you but in a manner that will not destroy you. We dont beat you w/bamboo. We dont stick you a hole full of pig toejam. We dont electrocute you... we dont hack off limbs, we dont kill your family members infront of you..etc.
Sometimes the crap I see spewed here makes me want to gag.
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in this case : yes
I'm not a good christian ... but you already knew that.
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Nice dodge, Beetle. :) Neither Hortlund or Toad answered the point I put to you or addressed the issue we were discussing.
For the record, I'm not arguing that the US commits acts of torture. I'm just saying that true medieval-type torture, including beating, is completely wrong.
By the same token 'farming' out suspects into the custody of states that we know will use hot pokers, electrocution and beating is guilt by proxy and unacceptable.
Sleep deprivation and psychology is necessary interrogation - I think it just manages to tread the boundary, for me.
BTW, being forced to watch cable TV could rightly be described as torture. Forget the rubber hoses, endless re-runs of Dallas would make me crack. :D
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Originally posted by beet1e
straffo - if you read that Telegraph report, you will see that the prisoner gets roughed up. Not a job I would want to do. The prisoner is subject to sleep deprivation, lights and white noise. Hell, even our SAS have to go through that in training. Always remember - whatever the CIA metes out to KSM, it's only 0.00001% of the cruelty meted out by AQ on 9/11 and in the time since.
When the prisoner gives the information being demanded, the treatment should be eased.
Of course I don't like the idea of torture, but this is war - needs must etc....
If we use the same methods as them, we aren't any better
Regards Blitz
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Originally posted by Hortlund
I'm asking for your personal opinion. Would it be ok to torture mr terrorist in this example?
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Picture if you will a situation where an Al Queida terrorist has hidden a nuke somewhere in Washington DC, the police manage to grab the terrorist, but he refuses to say anything before he has his lawyer present. Do you want to go with option a) wait for his lawyer to show up, and play by the book, or option b) torture him to get the location of the bomb in time to defuse it.
(and please stay focused on the issue and not sidetrack into some obscure "even if we did use torture we cant know for sure he would be telling the truth")
The question is very simple. Can torture be acceptable in the hidden nuke scenario described above?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hortlund
I'm asking for your personal opinion. Would it be ok to torture mr terrorist in this example?
Typical dump question.
Torture was never banned after WW2. Was used every day since then.
If ya asked that question 30 years ago it would be like this:
If ya sittin at an outpost in Vietnam with 2 platoons with heavy enemy activity outside (Vietcong terrorists) and ya capture 1 of them: 'Would you think it would be ok to torture him to know which direction these terrorists might attack from to make it more safe for your men?'
Or if some criminal kidnaps a child. 'Would it be ok to torture him to save the live of this child?'
Relatives who miss a child are aloud to ask for torture but a democratic government has to deny it, simple as that.
Regards Blitz
Brutality will nothing grow but brutality.
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The French are nazis straffo, you have killed POW in every war since after the end of WW2 - you killed none during WW2 of course because you cowards didnt fight even to save your own country.... But after the AMERICANS, as in USA, as in AMREEKA also UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, or US as in GREAT SATAN, THE as in in no way france or having to do with the french cowards won WW2 for you and liberated france you had no disagreemint with murdering POWs to extract revennge for your own pity of having small noodlees and not fighting in the actuall war. So the french are like nazis because they killed POW after WW2, and in indochina, and in algeria, and in africa and everywhere else. Yes the french are excellent at killing unarmed men in handcuffs.
So you are nazis, and you straffo are a nazi too. So is jacques chirac because he sold weapons to Hussein like the nazis sold weapons to murdering puppet regimes and they used them to slaughter innocent civilans just like the nazis. So the french leader is a nazi, yes chirac is hitler and by your support of chirac and saying she represents france and your and french peoples beliefs you are bunch of nazis.
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Originally posted by miko2d
slimm50: Why they are so upset about Bush's practices, and seemingly not about Hussein's, et. al.....I don't understand.
It's purely pragmatic. People are much less concerned that some remote backward country is ruled by an abusive government than the fact that their own country is moving towards abusive government.
miko
Oh puh-leeze....sheesh! I'm at a loss for words here:mad:
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Bilitz:
No bulshit, no evading, no moralizing - just YES or NO.
Would it be ok to have tortured Mohammed Atta on sptember 10 2001 knowing he knew something about a massive attack very soon like tomorow?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Bilitz:
No bulshit, no evading, no moralizing - just YES or NO.
Would it be ok to have tortured Mohammed Atta on sptember 10 2001 knowing he knew something about a massive attack very soon like tomorow?
'No moralizing' tells all of the story.
Who's moralising most? Mr. Bush ? Yes.
'Axis of Evil', 'Saddam and his tortering regime'.
Regards Blitz
America is threatened in no way by Iraq, it's just plain ridiculous
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Originally posted by Dowding
BTW, being forced to watch cable TV could rightly be described as torture. Forget the rubber hoses, endless re-runs of Dallas would make me crack. :D
ROFL Dowding!
I don't think we're so far apart. Of course, the prisoner should not be tortured, where that means the sort of wanton mediaeval treatment often used in bygone centuries in the name of religion.
All the CIA wants is information. To get that, they may need to subject the prisoner to a measure of "discomfort", in a variety of forms. Of course I do not support the use of red hot pokers or any of that mediaeval crap. Besides, it won't be necessary. KSM lasted only two days before he was singing like a canary. So what if he got slammed against his cell wall, kept awake all night, and made to sit in an uncomfortable position? After what he did, what do you want from me - sympathy?
I can't believe it. Only 18 months have passed since 9/11, and already the villains of the piece have gained a measure of public sympathy for their plight. Whatever next? Maybe another "peace" rally in London, in which the protesters clamour for "no more interrogation of AQ suspects"? Do me a freakin' favour. :rolleyes:
I should add a line to my sig: "The CIA is in no way threatened by KSM - it's just redikulous". :p
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You are evading the question.
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I think I will call my friend who worked in the World Trade Center.
Oh! I can't because he's dead. Hmm, did he die, or was he FUKIN' KILLED. (Sam Kinison voice) HE WAS FUKIN' KILLED, DO YOU HEAR ME, HE WAS AT WORK, AND A TERRORIST FUKIN' KILLED HIM. WHO THE FUK DID THIS? :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Thorns:rolleyes:
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Uh, Grun.. he's a drive by. He isn't here to do anything but throw stones and run away.
I'm not bothering any more.
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I'm still I'm still I'm still Jenny from the block
Used to have a little, now I have alot
I'm still I'm still I'm still Jenny from the block
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there's a time and a place for everything.
even torture.
in fact, you may be a torturer.
i know i am. no question.
here's how i became a 'nazi' by straffo's definition.
my kid, at the time 13 was given drugs by my nephew, then 16. my kid overdosed.. and was in the hospital. it became important to determine just what those drugs were. it was also apparent my nephew was lying about giving my kid drugs. i grabbed the little toejam, tossed him into a wall, broke his nose and proceeded down the painfull path to doing the same to his arm. he told the truth post-haste. with the information i obtained, (it was PCP) the hospital was able to take the correct steps to care for my kid without further endangering her.
and yes, i'd do it again.
sorry dowding. i condone physical violence in pursuit timely information in circumstances where lives are at stake.. there IS a time and a place for torture.
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Yea Toad, I'm no longer sure its even worth it - but sometimes I cant help but to try. The first time I came across this guy on the BBS he was praising Che Guevara and Castro as great leaders and now he proports to be against torture and human rights violations. My best guess is he was a former (well thats questionable?) east german communist who was brainwashed to hate america at all costs no matter what.
Knowing how communist brainwashing starts out as i got the intial doses as a kid in grades 1-3 and preschool I cant help but try some more with him - but i do fear there is no hope. In fact I think you prolly cant reform them - they must decide to change and recognize the problem thmselves. Blitz seems not to fit that pattern of wanting to change..
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i disagree grun. his noise is akin to the pinheads at PETA. you won't see those gutless weenies accosting a motorcycle club.. but they have no problem spray painting a blondes fur coat on 5th avenue.
it's fashionable to protest.. everybody wants to be an activist for some PC cause.. like whales and endangered gitmo bay spotted terrorists. put somebody in front of them that's willing to demonstrate first person darwinisim and they all become cowards.
like toad said, he's got all the balls of a drive-by activist.
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Well he said that he was from berlin, he once said he was on vacation in cuba during 1982 or so, he praises communits, he hates capitalism so I figure there is a good case he was east german communist brainwashed.
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he's a 19 year old skinhead with a stud in his tounge.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The French are nazis straffo, you have killed POW in every war since after the end of WW2 - you killed none during WW2 of course because you cowards didnt fight even to save your own country.... But after the AMERICANS, as in USA, as in AMREEKA also UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, or US as in GREAT SATAN, THE as in in no way france or having to do with the french cowards won WW2 for you and liberated france you had no disagreemint with murdering POWs to extract revennge for your own pity of having small noodlees and not fighting in the actuall war. So the french are like nazis because they killed POW after WW2, and in indochina, and in algeria, and in africa and everywhere else. Yes the french are excellent at killing unarmed men in handcuffs.
So you are nazis, and you straffo are a nazi too. So is jacques chirac because he sold weapons to Hussein like the nazis sold weapons to murdering puppet regimes and they used them to slaughter innocent civilans just like the nazis. So the french leader is a nazi, yes chirac is hitler and by your support of chirac and saying she represents france and your and french peoples beliefs you are bunch of nazis.
Hips !
Drunk or what ?
You can have another beer on my account.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
there's a time and a place for everything.
even torture.
in fact, you may be a torturer.
i know i am. no question.
here's how i became a 'nazi' by straffo's definition.
my kid, at the time 13 was given drugs by my nephew, then 16. my kid overdosed.. and was in the hospital. it became important to determine just what those drugs were. it was also apparent my nephew was lying about giving my kid drugs. i grabbed the little toejam, tossed him into a wall, broke his nose and proceeded down the painfull path to doing the same to his arm. he told the truth post-haste. with the information i obtained, (it was PCP) the hospital was able to take the correct steps to care for my kid without further endangering her.
and yes, i'd do it again.
sorry dowding. i condone physical violence in pursuit timely information in circumstances where lives are at stake.. there IS a time and a place for torture.
No Hangtime I don't consider you to be a Nazi.
I just said that your post sounded like a nazi one.
It's a bit different no ?
@GRUN I'm still trying to understand your post.
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I applied your principles straffo. If you do like a nazi then you are a nazi...
French murdered POWs right after WW2 - which is the same as murdering 6 million jews. So the French are Nazis.
French murdered POWs in all their colonial wars after WW2. So again you are Nazis.
Jacques Chirac was involved in selling weapons to Saddam Hussein. The Nazis sold weapons to their satelite regimes as well. Both Saddam and the Nazi satelite states commited genocide against their own citizens. So by your rule of "do like nazi makes you a nazi" we can conclude that Jacques Chirac is a Nazi.
So now that we establised Chirac is a Nazi according to straffos rules , lets see what straffo thinks about Chirac.
In straffo's own words:
Mr. Chirac is protecting my interests.I will vote for Chirac next go round, if hes willing to run. I think he reflects my nation.
This means you are supporting a Nazi and would vote for him again - remember hitler was elected as well. This says your interests are supported by a Nazi. This says you think a Nazi reflects France correctly.
By all these then you too are a Nazi.
So in conclusion:
diddly you straffo for muredeing 6 million jews and causing a war that killed 55 million people overall.
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so you want a point to point rebutal ...
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I applied your principles straffo. If you do like a nazi then you are a nazi...
yep
French murdered POWs right after WW2 - which is the same as murdering 6 million jews. So the French are Nazis.
hu ?
French murdered POWs in all their colonial wars after WW2. So again you are Nazis.
hu ? again ?
Jacques Chirac was involved in selling weapons to Saddam Hussein. The Nazis sold weapons to their satelite regimes as well. Both Saddam and the Nazi satelite states commited genocide against their own citizens. So by your rule of "do like nazi makes you a nazi" we can conclude that Jacques Chirac is a Nazi.
Rotfl :)
A bit short in logic no ?
So now that we establised Chirac is a Nazi according to straffos rules , lets see what straffo thinks about Chirac.
In straffo's own words:
This means you are supporting a Nazi and would vote for him again - remember hitler was elected as well. This says your interests are supported by a Nazi. This says you think a Nazi reflects France correctly.
By all these then you too are a Nazi.
ouch !
I never voted for him.
And the quote you are refering was ironic in it's context.
I reused the exact same sentence a previous poster used.It was lame so was my post using the same terms.
So in conclusion:
diddly you straffo for muredeing 6 million jews and causing a war that killed 55 million people overall.
Conclusion don't work.
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I applied your principles straffo. If you do like a nazi then you are a nazi...
yep
French murdered POWs right after WW2 - which is the same as murdering 6 million jews. So the French are Nazis.
hu ?
[/b]
LOL I must admit this is rather amusing. It is very simple Straffo, if someone can show that France killed a single POW after ww2, then according to your own twisted logic, France "is nazi".
If you do like a nazi then you are a nazi...remember.
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don't speak about logic it's a part of the science you don't manage well .
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Known as an adept of "French Algeria", he was in charge of making war againsy the Algerian nationalist movement known as the FLN. This war had been started by the French socialist governement in 1954, with Mitterrand as Home Minister, in order to smash the nascent anticolonial movement. As Prime Minister, Michel Debré took responsibility for the terrorist operations of the French Army. These mopping up operation were codenamed "Maintaining the Order". Villages were burned to the ground, local farming populations were deported and put into concentration camps. Women were raped, burned and killed. Men were arrested and tortured. A flow of protest emerged in France itself and the government replied by censoring newspapers and banning a lot of books. In the United Nations, France was systematically condemned and got support only from Apartheid South Africa and Israel.
How bout this?...
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Originally posted by straffo
don't speak about logic it's a part of the science you don't manage well .
Well lets see how your logic works straffo.
Straffo in another thread:
With this kind of post (Hangtime talking about boycotting french merchandise) I've trouble distiguishing some USA citizen from Nazi.
same behaviour == same scum.
Straffo:
You fail again to understand what is obviously simple :
if you act like a Nazi ... you are a Nazi.
Hortlund:
If the nazis lied, and you lie, does that make you a nazi straffo?
Straffo:
-avoiding the question.
Hortlund:
Why are you avoiding the question?
Straffo:
It's time for me to ask a question (avoiding the question again)
Hortlund:
You're the one saying "if you act like a nazi, you are a nazi". I could ask you how a person badmouthing another nation on a BB (like Yeager or Hangtime ...when you called them a nazi) compare to a nazi murdering 6 million innocent civilians...because I sure as **** dont see that connection.
Straffo:
Avoiding the question yet again. Shifting subject to torture.
"if you want to explain me how christian is it and non-nazi to torture some POWs I'm ready to listen.
Hortlund:
In some cases torture can be acceptable. (gives example)
Straffo:
in this case (talking about a specific example): yes
Hangtime:
I condone physical violence in pursuit timely information in circumstances where lives are at stake.. there IS a time and a place for torture.
Straffo:
No Hangtime I don't consider you to be a Nazi.
I just said that your post sounded like a nazi one.
So now I'm confused straffo.
At first you are accusing me of being a nazi because I think there are situations where torture is motivated. You say "if you act like a Nazi ... you are a Nazi". Then you say that torture is acceptable in some circumstances. Does that mean that you are a nazi too? But when Hangtime says HE thinks torture is acceptable in some situations, he is NOT a nazi?
Above I have asked you to answer the question: If you lie, does that make you a nazi? You have dodged that question three times, so I dont expect an answer now either…
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If they were POW so are the guy in the Guantanamo bay.
You got trapped GRUN :D
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Sure! But I don't agree with your theory - you do.
Trying to "trap" me by saying both groups are equally "POW" you only validated my argument that the French did indeed kill POWs, which answers your question of "hu" did they kill.
Now that you agree that French did indeed kill POWs after ww2 in their colonial wars you must apply YOUR theory, (unless of course you are full of toejam and you are lying to us), and conclude that indeed the French are Nazis.
So really you are the only person who got trapped.
You can untrap yourself, however, by admitting openly that your "do as nazi equal nazi" or "killing 2 pow is same as 6million holcaust is the same" theories are plainly idiotic.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
So now I'm confused straffo.
At first you are accusing me of being a nazi because I think there are situations where torture is motivated. You say "if you act like a Nazi ... you are a Nazi". Then you say that torture is acceptable in some circumstances. Does that mean that you are a nazi too? But when Hangtime says HE thinks torture is acceptable in some situations, he is NOT a nazi?
Above I have asked you to answer the question: If you lie, does that make you a nazi? You have dodged that question three times, so I dont expect an answer now either…
It's a bit more complex than you think.
You like anyone have a moral contract with yourself ,ok ?
At least I've one, I try to live the way I've choosen and avoid making bad things (bad thing in my moral system which is not obligatory yours).
When you asked me to give a personnal opinion about what I will do in a precise circumstance I've just a little effort of imagination to do to figure what would be my probable reaction.
I doesn't imply I'll avoid the consequence regarding my moral system I'll not try to avoid the truth and hide behind some "it was the right think to do" "I was having no other choises".
If ever I act like that I'll act like a Nazi and de facto I'll be a Nazi.
Concerning Hangtime look at the word I've used : "'ve trouble distiguishing some USA citizen" it was a general comment did I wrote : Hangtime is a nazi ?
No.
Concerning lie,I'm perhaps wrong but I do find a nazi liar less dangerous than a murderer nazi.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Sure! But I don't agree with your theory - you do.
Trying to "trap" me by saying both groups are equally "POW" you only validated my argument that the French did indeed kill POWs, which answers your question of "hu" did they kill.
Now that you agree that French did indeed kill POWs after ww2 in their colonial wars you must apply YOUR theory, (unless of course you are full of toejam and you are lying to us), and conclude that indeed the French are Nazis.
So really you are the only person who got trapped.
You can untrap yourself, however, by admitting openly that your "do as nazi equal nazi" or "killing 2 pow is same as 6million holcaust is the same" theories are plainly idiotic.
I guess you think I support the usage of torture of POW by French troop in Algeria and other colonie ?
Wrong ,I'm against and I've ever manifested against some Algerian war "hero" like général Ausaresse.
(btw the trap part was by itself a trap but you already know how twisted and complex I am :D)
Concerning the nazi I do think you are a nazi because of your individual act not because you governement is nazi.
Let try to say that another way : the nazi were governing germany lot of german were nazi but not all were nazi (white rose for exemple).
It's the "amalgame" which is dangerous it's like saying : GRUNHERTZ you are from a former comunist country so you are comunist.
It's wrong no ?
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But accoriding to your rules about killing POWs France is a Nazi country.... And thats all that matters...
Do you think France is a Nazi country?
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Wrong.
This rule is a pure individual rule I don't expand it to the whole country.
I agree that some French acted like Nazi in algeria and other country.
I DON'T AGREE WITH THEM.
They should have been judged like the nazi were as they were similar by their act.
It's a shame my country governement didn't take any action against them.
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Gentlemen, gentlemen! You're starting to sound like Lazs and myself having a discussion about the role of LA7, and personal stats!
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Did the LA7 use torture ?
Or is it a way to torture the other ? ;)
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Personally, I find disgusting the the liberal way the "Nazi" word and concept is used as of nowadays.
It's utmost stupid to call someone nazi because he is a murder, let alone a liar.
A Nazi is a Nationalsocialist. Period. To be a Nazi you don't have just to be a murderer. You have to believe in races superiority, in ethnic cleansing and, ultimately, to physical anihilation of human being considered inferiors or opposing to your concept of life, world and politics as a feasible solution to problems, real or ideological.
I find it sickening how easy anybody uses the word "Nazi". It's amazing how somebody can use that word to refer to the USA or some Western government and his attitude against Iraq, conveniently forgetting that the concept fits much, much better to the Iraqi dictator. And it is plain false to apply it to any current western country.
Having said that, I classify that kind of people in two groups: ignorant illiterates who need serious history reading and people trying to annoy or offend me. To the ones on the first group, I can direct them to a couple of good books about Nationalsocialism's doctrine. To the second ones, simply they wont.
In this story there is one clear Nazi-to-be and he is Saddam. We can argue wether USA stance is better or worse than France's one. But not about who is the "bad guy". If you want to find a torturer, go look for him in Baghdad, and stop chasing shadows.
The blatant truth of the whole issue is that we (the whole world) have to deal with a mean, cruel and no-moral guy who has absolute no respect for any other concept than physical force. In this context, I find USA and allies position much, much more suitable of producing the desired results (peace) than France's and allies one.
Just my oppinion, of course.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Some of you people are seriousy weird.
Lets see...torture captured terrorist to get them to reveal information about other terrorists ...slaughter and butcher 6 million jews, men, women, small children by gassing them in huge industrialized camps...
Yup same thing really. Same level. Yup.
You're the weird one here, if numbers are what makes for your validation for a torture.
1. How can you be sure they are terrorists who are being tortured and not just some innocent people caught just for being suspected, like many have been?
2. a handful or 6 million people tortured with goverments approval, same thing is done, regardless of numbers.
3. do you remember how germany became fascistic?
It wasn't just one days happening, but years of evolution, where more and more fascistic features were added along the time.
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Originally posted by Fishu
You're the weird one here, if numbers are what makes for your validation for a torture.
I think there are some cases when torture is acceptable. See my ticking bomb example above.
I think comparing this to what the nazis did is horribly wrong. Pepe said it very well.
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I disagree Pepe , in my definition a nazi is nazi by his act not by is thought.
A Nazi can think whatever he want it's his own private thought he his free to have a brain full of hate and ethnic cleansing idea.
But when he is starting to act according to his twisted mind it's another figure.
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Straffo,
In my oppinion, If your brain is full of Nazi ideology, you are a Nazi. You can have an internal contradiction, not being able to live according to your beliefs, or you can be a blatant murder and live according to them. But you are a Nazi in both cases. In the first case a coward one, what only make things worse.
Nationalsocialism is an ideology. A terribly sick one, but an ideology. It's not a behaviour or a way of living. You can call "Nazi" to anyone acting in a certain way that you feel is particulary horrendous, but you will be only doing a favour to Nationalsocialism. The term and the concept "Nazi" is so ugly that using it lightly makes me sick. For me, "Nazi" is a very singular and particular concept that responds to a precise ideology, and I'm very scrupulous in not using it out of context.
Sincerely,
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Ok I undertstand you opinion and agree with you ,but what word should be used instead ?
I don't know any word sharing the same uglyness.
For me someone not endorsing the ideologie but having the same behaviour is "nazi" even if he don't pretend to no be a nazi.
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In this particular thread, I would call pervert to anyone who justify torture as a mean to obtain information of a captive prisioner. Being Nazi is a lot worse, in my opinion.
I do not justify torture. I think it's a horrible thing to do. But I do not consider having women taking care of prisioners to be a torture. Nor I consider it using chemicals on them, as long as no severe pain is induced and not permanent sequels are inflicted.
When you face an enemy, you are obligued to try to obtain as much useful information as possible. On the means of doing this, I think there is not a red thin line where everyone of us can agree "from this line it is torture", but defintely there is a fuzzy red zone where you are at risk of torturing a prisoner. My position consists in being as far to this fuzzy red zone as to not have to question myself if this is torture or not. And it is a personal standing, as this matter is very subjective. Everyone will have his own position.
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Sure Pepe,
That's the position I tryed to defend.
Badly as usual.
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No.
Straffo you tried to say that killing two POW is exactly 100% equal to the planned systematic years long effort to exterminate 6 million jews plus another 6 million other undesirables.
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ok ,so when you kill 2 POW you are just an abject pervert that's better ? (but is that really different on a individual level ?).
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Originally posted by Toad
Uh, Grun.. he's a drive by. He isn't here to do anything but throw stones and run away.
I'm not bothering any more.
Absolutely wrong Toad!!
I'm throwing stones and go to bed :D
Regards Blitz
btw Gruen, what has more worth, the live of ya mother or the lives of a million people?
America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous
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Originally posted by Hangtime
there's a time and a place for everything.
even torture.
in fact, you may be a torturer.
i know i am. no question.
here's how i became a 'nazi' by straffo's definition.
my kid, at the time 13 was given drugs by my nephew, then 16. my kid overdosed.. and was in the hospital. it became important to determine just what those drugs were. it was also apparent my nephew was lying about giving my kid drugs. i grabbed the little toejam, tossed him into a wall, broke his nose and proceeded down the painfull path to doing the same to his arm. he told the truth post-haste. with the information i obtained, (it was PCP) the hospital was able to take the correct steps to care for my kid without further endangering her.
and yes, i'd do it again.
sorry dowding. i condone physical violence in pursuit timely information in circumstances where lives are at stake.. there IS a time and a place for torture.
What's all about Hang, ya was a relative, might would had done the same.
Regards Blitz
America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous
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Originally posted by Hangtime
i disagree grun. his noise is akin to the pinheads at PETA. you won't see those gutless weenies accosting a motorcycle club.. but they have no problem spray painting a blondes fur coat on 5th avenue.
it's fashionable to protest.. everybody wants to be an activist for some PC cause.. like whales and endangered gitmo bay spotted terrorists. put somebody in front of them that's willing to demonstrate first person darwinisim and they all become cowards.
like toad said, he's got all the balls of a drive-by activist.
Sorry Hang, got a BMW 60/5 for 1 year and drove 100 000 kilometers with my be loved 75/6. To scarry now, VW- Van is fast enough :D
Regards Blitz
America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous
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Without a mother i wouldnt be here to ponder your question, but out of a million people on average there are 550,000 mothers or potential mothers. So after i was born i would have to decide if the dath of one person (my mother) would save the lives of a million people then Thats something to consider. However I know 100% i would let my mother live if those 1,000,000 were communist whack jobs like you.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yea Toad, I'm no longer sure its even worth it - but sometimes I cant help but to try. The first time I came across this guy on the BBS he was praising Che Guevara and Castro as great leaders and now he proports to be against torture and human rights violations. My best guess is he was a former (well thats questionable?) east german communist who was brainwashed to hate america at all costs no matter what.
Knowing how communist brainwashing starts out as i got the intial doses as a kid in grades 1-3 and preschool I cant help but try some more with him - but i do fear there is no hope. In fact I think you prolly cant reform them - they must decide to change and recognize the problem thmselves. Blitz seems not to fit that pattern of wanting to change..
The 'Che' and 'Fidel' are ok at some points, far away from thinkin Cubas government is great , though :D
Too smart to be a communist or one of these fanatic religous, so called patriotic,new nazi or whatever idiots :)
Was never in any party nor did i ever thought of any to be in.
Try hard to find my own way, sometimes right, sometimes wrong,
have great respect for the truth (if there's any )
Regards Blitz
ohh, btw1 jfyi i was born and ever lived in W-Germany :)
btw2 I allways like to change a bit every day because live isn't static. You should try it Gruen, it's great :)
America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Without a mother i wouldnt be here to ponder your question, but out of a million people on average there are 550,000 mothers or potential mothers. So after i was born i would have to decide if the dath of one person (my mother) would save the lives of a million people then Thats something to consider. However I know 100% i would let my mother live if those 1,000,000 were communist whack jobs like you.
Ok Gruen, here we differ. I would never sell my mother, not even for the entire globe. Feel sorry for ya. :(
Regards Blitz
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What if your mother was just about to push a button that would detonate a nuclera bomb hidden in new york? And there is no way to stop except to shoot her dead.
BTW I'm assuming you don't want to destroy New York City and kill a few million innocent americans.
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..
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So wahts your answer?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What if your mother was just about to push a button that would detonate a nuclera bomb hidden in new york? And there is no way to stop except to shoot her dead.
BTW I'm assuming you don't want to destroy New York City and kill a few million innocent americans.
My mommy won't do that, sorry, if ya mother would , better be outside blast radius :D
Regards Blitz
America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous
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Originally posted by blitz
have great respect for the truth (if there's any )
Now that is truly funny.
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Again you are avoiding directly answering the question...
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Originally posted by Toad
Now that is truly funny.
So laugh your prettythang off :D
Regards Blitz
America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous