Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Apache on March 11, 2003, 07:47:48 AM
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Chasing nothing but fast planes has gone beyond boring. Yeah, occasionally you run into the likes of a dr7 in a spit but he’s not normal, lol. He’s so aggressive; he doesn’t care what the odds are. Fights with the 13th, when they aren’t P51’n (that’s a southern thang, P51’n), is a blast. The CV’s are the best but they don’t last long.
Fights are far and few between now, for me at least. All I seem to be doing the past few weeks is chasing P51’s, Typhoons and 190’s and hope I catch ‘em before they auger into the field they are hitting. Yeah I know. Catch them between fields. Heck, all they do is nose down and haul prettythang. That is 3 of the fastest planes you know.
Bah! I just wish someone could come up with an idea that would increase fights, not chases but doesn’t overly control what one gets to fly nor separates arenas. Don’t know if that’s possible under the current model, or if it’s possible at all. I sure as heck don’t have the answer. For that matter, I’m not even sure there’s a problem! Not how’s that for going in circles huh?
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It's the people, not the planes. even with an RPS the same "runners" will fly the "fastest" plane and still, ya know, run.
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yep... even I grabbed a tempest and chased down cowardly dee 9's..
I think infinity and pizza are the worst for having fast plane run away crowd... the whole arena is more timid anyway..
Havintg the fields so far apart is what forces people to either fly fast planes and run if they want to survive.
I would love to see HTC carve about a 1/4 of the the bottom out of the huge maps and make an early war area out of those spots with the fields moved about 20% closer in those early war areas.... seperate resets for the early war area and 50k mountains to keep the girly men out in their timid planes.
lazs
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I miss those huge carier vs carrier battles havent seen em in a while.
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agree!!!.... it is gettin outta hand.....
peee shooters all over the place.....
tight leather wearin luftwoobles all over the place.....
even in my tif....I have to be higher or they will get away.......
someone has to come up with something to prevent the easy plane access.....(la7's....D9's....pee51's)
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HiTech should model speeding tickets.
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Never happen here.
There is one thing that HT hates above all, Whines.
RPS generates whines like nothing you've ever seen before.
So I'm predicting he won't go there.
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ghost... i agree... RPS won't work. I tend to think seperate arenas will never work either and think that they are bad for the community... I went into the CT and 3/4 of the guys there were people I had never heard of before.
I think the arena within an arena is an elegant solution but can't seem to sell it to Dale. Seperate resets and 50k mountain seperation would be essential tho..
Thing is... something has to be done. the game is getting pretty boring what with all the running away.
lazs
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Like Shane said, in any plane set, there will always be a plane that CAN run....and pilots that WILL run.
At least an RPS would provide some variety. But, as Ghosth says, "Never happen here".
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There's a lot of people having fun at Trinities Tank Town...look at the reasons why.
Then think how that kind of an area would be like if it were for early/mid war planes available, no bombs/rocks, in the area and that any plane outside of that planeset would have both a hell of a climb to get there and a long flight duration also. Then make the bases in that area either uncapturable or hardened to the point that jabos can't kill it. A map reset wouldn't be dependant on capturing these bases.
What, IMO, you'd end up with is an area the furballers/ACM aficionados could concentrate on AtoA combat where the landgrab/field porkers wouldn't be at with the exception of a few who don't give a rats bellybutton about ACM and just wish to blow stuff up.
Some would say that that's what the dueling arena is for. I have a feeling that those that would say that are those who like to see stuff blow up.
Flame on!
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lars... exactly... the runners don't want an area for early war planes because.... well... they don't want to fight just late war planes that would fite them on an even keel... they want to cherry pick people who are busy.
We have concessions for tanks and PT's and the like so that they can get into the action and/or not be molested by ac. I think we would be well served by a small area within the huge boring pizza or infinity map where early war planes could fite.
lazs
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I've been flying the P-40E against overwhelming odds and dying every sortie.....translated, this means I'm desperately seeking some fun.
Would a specific planeset (early war only or late war only) for a specific time period, maybe rotating every other day work?
I am sick of people runnin away...can't believe I'm saying that, but it sucks to fly around beneath everyone trying to be a good target only to get ignored.
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When I feel the same way I take up a "white zero" at a base being vulched. Assuming I can get off the ground I have no problems finding a fight. Staying alive is a challenge that makes it interesting.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Never happen here.
There is one thing that HT hates above all, Whines.
RPS generates whines like nothing you've ever seen before.
So I'm predicting he won't go there.
its not part of fun?;)
We see what HTC give us on AH2 TOD, i think it will be som kinde of RPS. With limited time /1 year or 6 months/. But this must be RPS at last.
Personal i like RPS and play them 2 years.
I know all whine thread, about plane performance, side balance, airplanes service date............. etc, etc
imho one more arena separate whiners from MA BB part;)
its not many work for HTC to set up rps, and new arena.
But as i know Pyro say "NEVER AGAIN" /correct me if im wrong/
heheh id like to see again "Fariz style misson", 40 hurricanes voulching airfield:) thats can be fun!!!!
No doubt RPS can be fun, but we need more planes/vehicycles for early years
ramzey
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fly an a6m2 or a6m5 below everyone and you will not be ignored:)
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Originally posted by lazs2
I think we would be well served by a small area within the huge boring pizza or infinity map where early war planes could fite.
lazs
I'm with ya there Lazs. In AW3 I flew Fightertown almost exclusively. Unfortunatly, the skillz I learned there have been all but lost since very few 1v1 fights in the MA are unmolested.
That ain't a gangbang whine either since I believe that getting caught in a gangbang situation is an indication of poor MA SA.
I'd realy like an area in the MA where you could fight using real ACM w/o having to have to worry so much about cherry picking fast planes, cherry picking slow planes are easy to deal with. ;)
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Originally posted by keyapaha
I miss those huge carier vs carrier battles havent seen em in a while.
If there were more ports, there'd be more carriers, and if there were more carriers, there'd be more carrier-based fighters, and if there were more carrier-based fighters being flown, you'd see fewer 190D9s, P-51Ds, LA-7s, and Typhoons.
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Yes I hate runners too. Only do it myself when out of fuel/ammo or have a few kills under my belt. Otherwise I'm pretty aggressive and turn into everything I see. If I was any good I'd be dangerous.
The way some people carry on you'd think they really could get hurt. I saw the same sort of thing while playig paintball games out in the forest. People pay good money to take part but then hide in a bush in case someone shoots at them. What is that all about?
I find a good place for a fight is a recently lost field. Usually it's full of hyped up enemies at low level. If you up at the nearest friendly field and come in higher than them you can count on a fight. You'll get their full attention. They won't run because they're over their own base.
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I enjoyed running down palef in his D9 in my A6M2 last night...
He was buzzing low bugging away from some teamates. I had angle and about 4k on him... dove in to 420 ias saddled to 400m and dumped into him with the HO cannons. He then dora danced into my pickle and tried one last desperation throttle chop manuever.. I also chopped and now was 85m of his 6...
Vaporazation.......
Chalk one up for the slow bastage bottom feeders....
It can be done...
2 cents
DoctorYO
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Lazs' idea is starting to look better and better.
I've devoted most of my flying to the F6F and FM2, and I can't catch anyone, unless I rope them into a turn fight. The only alternative is to up from a nearby field, and spend the time to climb to 15-20K to have enough E to catch that damn 109.
As time is short for me, quick fix firballs are sometimes very sough after.
Maybe a small corner of the Map, say 4 grids worth, with close, indestructable fields would do the trick. Sure it's quale style, and not my idea of fun all the time, but when I only have 30 mins to fly, thats where I'd be.
How will this stop the late war hot rods though?
RPS does not seem to work. I tried CT this month, and I've been getting creamed in the F4F. How I do so much better in the FM2, I have no idea, as the planes are pretty close together. Bottom line, you won't see me in CT this month.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Lazs' idea is starting to look better and better.
QUICK GET A DOCTOR !!!!
Lazs ... I would save this one for eternity and use it against him for the rest of his life in AH.
LOL ... <> Muck
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So, what plane set would be available in the Early War Area?
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Originally posted by popeye
So, what plane set would be available in the Early War Area?
"The Magnificent Seven"
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Spitfire 1
Hurricane Mk 1
109E
A6M2
F4F
P-40B
C.202
And the French D.520 whenever it gets introduced.
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I dunno.. seems to me the guys that mentioned that the maps are the root of the problem, are correct. With the big maps people tend to grab more since there is a greater distance between bases...may as well grab a speed plane to get there quicker and take advantage of the alt. Small maps mean less "fast" planes I guess. I'm amused though, that some people callin others runners are themselves often runners in the fastest planes. That has amused me since my first days here. :)
Maybe an early war arena would work... but most people would just find something else to whine about.
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Just to clarify, I'm not talking about runners as in "run away", which as some have pointed out is going to happen no matter the plane set.
That damnable fast jabo/auger crap is what gets me. No way to stop it. I mean, how is one supposed to defend 3 or 4 of the fastest aircraft in the game from jabo augering your fields when they don't care if they survive or not? Eventually they've auger porked your field down to nothing with wave after wave, that you may as well go elsewhere...or watch.
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Orbit a 262 along their flight corridor?
I've found the F4U1 with dt's and full fuel does a good job of keeping P-47s and level bombers away from carriers by simply orbiting a sector out from the nearest enemy base.
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Originally posted by gofaster
Orbit a 262 along their flight corridor?
I've found the F4U1 with dt's and full fuel does a good job of keeping P-47s and level bombers away from carriers by simply orbiting a sector out from the nearest enemy base.
...but it's boring enough as it is. I'm not a high alt guy. Climbing all that way is...well boring.
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Good stuff there.
Originally posted by keyapaha
I miss those huge carier vs carrier battles havent seen em in a while.
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Well I agree w/ ya on that point actually, Apache.. that jabo/auger stuff is sorta/kinda gamey. On the other hand, if you're feeling lazy, up a fast plane and cruise over the base.. 10k is all ya need.. pick up the jabos as they are headin in on their run... doesn't matter if they come in higher.. anticipate where they are gonna go in.. get some speed, your nose down into the base, and those goobs will dive down right in front your guns(rinse and repeat)..if the jabos are spaced out enough, you can feast and protect your base at the same time....if they arrive enmasse, you'll get your kills but obviously your base will still be a mess.
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So tell me what exactly is wrong with not "knowing" names as Laz calls it. I don't mind going up against someone I have not heard of in an arena. You have to think that the vast majority of AH players never come to the BB to write anything or speak their mind.
Also why an "area" and not an arena just for furballing? I think it would be extremely popular and have a couple of hundred people in there at one time during the high traffic times. Or do you want an area of the map simply because you are afraid of going into an arena where you don't "know" the names?
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yawn...i still fly a hurri2c...wouldent be caught dead in a 51 (oooh 4 .50cal mgs im scared) or a 190 (oooh a 30MM Cannon that you cant aim...im even MORE scared...) or even a tempest...(ugly plane that relies on its speed and mild cannon power...)
i for one prefer to dogfight rather than run run run auger reupp run run run auger...
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I think im on track with the topic. Imho, the furballing dweebs spoil the game. 100+ fighers furballing in an area when they could be used helping win the map. Instead they spend 4 hours getting killed over and over and the map gets lost.
However, this is how those people play the game. They do not enjoy the way I play it. Im one of those D9 dweebs that like hunting the turn and burners playing below. I dive, shoot em up and run like hell before I climb and do it all again.
My stick and I are suited to the that sort of fighting. Contrary to the opinion of some, I believe that it involves its own level of skill.
Knowing when to pounce, what to pounce and how to get away when it all goes pearshaped. Sure speed is essential, but its a tool of the fight no different to having the ability to turn like a dog chasing its tail.
Im not dragging my D9 into a turn n Burn just cause someone else decided the Spit or whatever was the plane for them. I dont argue their right to fly that plane but it wont dictate the plane I fly.
The problem is not the maps. Its how the pilots use them. It comes down to organisation, whether or not you have a wingman or a Squadron to watch your back. Obviously the lone gun turn n burner is going to spend a lot of time dying in any kind of fight because teamwork is so easily achieved in there with voice comms.
Today I and 2 other Rooks, non of which knew each other defeated 6 Bish. It was one of those rare moments (and I do mean rare) where the quality of pilot bonded to make an awesome team. Voice became secondary to thought. Scissors and rolling and drawing in a chaser to another pilot who didnt need to be asked. Just knew when to change direction and latch on to the chaser.
Our 3 aircraft where a mixture of turners n burners and boomers n zoomers (well, 1 Boomer and Zoomer) as was the 6 against us.
The aircraft were flown to their strengths. Each pilot asked of his aircraft only what it could possibly give. 5 minutes of no mistakes and 3 of us defeated 6 and all came out alive.
Pilots make the game. Not the map, not the planes. Its the same in any Combat Flight Sim.
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Originally posted by Curval
When I feel the same way I take up a "white zero" at a base being vulched. Assuming I can get off the ground I have no problems finding a fight. Staying alive is a challenge that makes it interesting.
You da man Curval. Nothing I like better than taking off from a field being vulched, in a ZERO, and driving the nme crazy. Sure I die, but I would love to hear them after being taken out by a pesky Zero. My fav is sucking them in on my six after lifting-off and auto S&L down the RW and watching them scream in behind me and then I to flip full aileron and kick in some rudder and get a prox-kill.
Bwahahahahaha:D
Psyco
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Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
Pilots make the game. Not the map, not the planes. Its the same in any Combat Flight Sim.
Amen Sp00K!
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I've never noticed a problem. If it is late night, and I really have trouble finding a fight, I grab a few guys and go hit a base.
Maybe I just don't understand the original post, but I never have difficulty finding a way to enjoy the game.
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reschke... first off there is nothing wrong with not knowing anyone except... if we want "community".. HTC believes in community and seperate arenas kill community. An "area" within the arena permits community and.... allows for seemless jumping from early war fights to late.
sc sp00k... I don't care if you fly dee9's... fly em all you like. fly em against other dee 9's but... if all you can do is cherry pick people who are busy with real fights then I don't feel sorry for you when you are not allowed to play in their area... you will still have the majority of the arena to play in but you will have to fight more of your ilk... you can also fly in the early war area it's just that.... you will have to do so with a little risk and without the huge advantage that you seem unable to do without now.
pop.... ah...theres the rub... right now it would probly be best to allow up to the spit 5 and maybe use the FM2 as a f4f-3 substitute... even the hellcat wouldn't be too unbalancing.. more of a early/mid war area. I wouldn't mind dodging hellcats or spit 5's in my p40e.
I don't want the fields uncaptureable... with a 1/4 of the pizza or infinity.... you could have 20 fields... simply have a seperate reset... "the bish have won the late war area" or "the nits have won the early war area" reset only the respective areas.
lazs
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martlet.... what do you "take a few guys and hit a base" with? If you take high speed high alt cherry pickers then you prove my point.... if you take slow planes then you know that you won't make it back... which, come to think of it... proves my point. I would love to up from a field that had dots coming in on the dar and notice that.... "my gawd, they are in spit 5's and fm2's!" I would know that they were either some fun squad or a bunch of dummies... either way... there would be killing. and... either way all of em would die without making it back.
Look.... we can allways find a way to "live with it" I can grab a tempest and chase down the wussies. I have enough perks to fly one for years. I would rather have good furballs tho.
lazs
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Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
I think im on track with the topic. Imho, the furballing dweebs spoil the game. 100+ fighers furballing in an area when they could be used helping win the map. Instead they spend 4 hours getting killed over and over and the map gets lost.
However, this is how those people play the game. They do not enjoy the way I play it. Im one of those D9 dweebs that like hunting the turn and burners playing below. I dive, shoot em up and run like hell before I climb and do it all again.
My stick and I are suited to the that sort of fighting. Contrary to the opinion of some, I believe that it involves its own level of skill.
Knowing when to pounce, what to pounce and how to get away when it all goes pearshaped. Sure speed is essential, but its a tool of the fight no different to having the ability to turn like a dog chasing its tail.
Im not dragging my D9 into a turn n Burn just cause someone else decided the Spit or whatever was the plane for them. I dont argue their right to fly that plane but it wont dictate the plane I fly.
The problem is not the maps. Its how the pilots use them. It comes down to organisation, whether or not you have a wingman or a Squadron to watch your back. Obviously the lone gun turn n burner is going to spend a lot of time dying in any kind of fight because teamwork is so easily achieved in there with voice comms.
Today I and 2 other Rooks, non of which knew each other defeated 6 Bish. It was one of those rare moments (and I do mean rare) where the quality of pilot bonded to make an awesome team. Voice became secondary to thought. Scissors and rolling and drawing in a chaser to another pilot who didnt need to be asked. Just knew when to change direction and latch on to the chaser.
Our 3 aircraft where a mixture of turners n burners and boomers n zoomers (well, 1 Boomer and Zoomer) as was the 6 against us.
The aircraft were flown to their strengths. Each pilot asked of his aircraft only what it could possibly give. 5 minutes of no mistakes and 3 of us defeated 6 and all came out alive.
Pilots make the game. Not the map, not the planes. Its the same in any Combat Flight Sim.
You're on topic but way off course. I don't include your type in my whine. I could care less what you choose to fly. Fly what you want. Fact is you fly the D9, but you fight in it. You aren't using it as a modified V2. Steve, Midnight, Rude and the like fly P51's, but they fight. Thats what I wish there were more of, like it used to be, fights.
BTW, I don't die over and over.
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Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
I think im on track with the topic. Imho, the furballing dweebs spoil the game. 100+ fighers furballing in an area when they could be used helping win the map. Instead they spend 4 hours getting killed over and over and the map gets lost.
Ummm...if it weren't for the fun of aerocombat the whole aerocombat sim type of online game might never have gotten off the ground back in the 80's.
So, you think the ones who have fun flying for the fights and the use of ACM are ruining 'your' enjoyment of the game? < enter a huge friggin' eyeroll here >
Go find yourself a clue rake and then RTFM before use!
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eewww... that'l leave a nasty welt.
lazs
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Really dont see why you guys dont try the CT when you get sick of the MA tactics. Many of us CT goers that lazs never heard of enjoy it quite a bit. For example we are currently running the a6m2, kate, val, ki67 vs the p40e, f4f, and boston.
The CT also offers a small escape from the 'capture the flag' game play of the MA. Pretty much just mindless furballing in the CT.
Tuesday and thursday nights are both good times to show up....
Its also a gorgeous map with new base setups, palms, new radar station graphics, coral reefs and everything.
(and lazs, its not like the 30 guys in the ct would add anything to the 600 playing in the MA, so multiple arenas dont seem to be a problem to me. AW did well with europe, and big pacific)
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In real life, the object was to bomb the enemy and kill the enemy's planes any way possible. To use the strengths of your plane against the weaknesses of the enemy planes. No where in real combat does it say that it's unethical to B&Z or run when it warrants.
For example, the Flying Tigers had the P-40 against the Zero. The P-40 is no match in a turn fight with a Zero, so they flew it how it would do the most good.
The Me-163 only had 8 kills to its credit the entire war, but it has unlimited use in AH.
The point is, this game is supposed to be as realistic as possible. So, quit your whining and fly your favorite plane. If you get vulched by a B&Zer, too bad. If you're stupid enough to get into a turn fight with a P-47, your mistake. Fly the plane the way it's supposed to be flown, or carry a big hankerchief with you.
:(
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Furballers have enough concessions though it is nice to see them whine :D
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We used to have the turnfighter-E fighter debate on the AW boards. Personally, I think to each his own...I don't think all E plane pilots are "wussies"(credit to Lazs), and I don't hink all turnfiters are dweebs(credit to Apache). I put a post on the boards then.. it applies now as much as ever:
Oh the folly of SOME turnfiters:
When I first joined the ranks of the AW community, Air Warrior was going strong as a free service on America Online. I had played offline flight sims and enjoyed them very much. Additionally, I had always been fascinated with the WWII period of history. I thrilled at the idea of actually shooting at live opponents instead of the lame AI planes of Aces over Japan/Europe. In fact, I was using windows 3.1 at the time and was forced to upgrade to win 95 in order to play AW. After a tortuous download (my 56k days) and some tertiary perusing of the online flight manuals, I took to the sky in my shiny new P-51 under the CPID Glans. Well, I didn’t actually take to the sky…I sort of got my wheels rolling only to get vulched well before I could rotate. I tried again and again, each time getting blasted into the asphalt. I thought to myself, “ Hmm this never happened in aces over Europe, maybe these FR guys are too much for my newbie lack of skills. I switched to RR3, after wearing out my welcome in the newb or practice arena, as usual at the time RR2 and RR1 were full. I had already figured out that I’d best not take off under the noses of my enemy(jargon: capped base) so I upped a clear base in my shiny pony and headed off to combat. I don’t remember how many times I got shot down. I was no prodigy let me tell you. I’m sure I got blasted dozens of times before I got my first kill. During these many flights I asked a lot of questions and was instructed to try out the spit 9, the most forgiving and easiest plane to fly, if not excel in. I was quickly hooked. I flew every night and weekend. I told one of my friends about the game and he quickly signed up under the cpid Caper. I latched onto a guy named Rullr. I fought him often and just couldn’t beat him no matter what. I became friendly with Manx and others and I quietly hung around, trying to learn the nuances of being a truly accomplished spit pilot. It took me a year or so, but I came to be considered a “good” pilot. It got to be that only Rullr and Manx could regularly beat me in my spitty. Time went by and those were great days to be a turnfighter. There was the endless fight at the vod; a constant furball of turnfighters fighting until they were shot down, only to up right there on the front line. I don’t remember the airport names any more…I think the vod was 81 and 82…it’s been a while. Then there was the pond, dead center in the map. Anything over 5000 feet was considered ridiculously high. The best turn fighters in the game plied their trade over the icy waters there. I’d often run into a most feared squad of PJ pilots there, the Widow Makers. They had some PJ pilots that make the PJ pilots of today who claim to be great look like sheep. Cpid’s like ->Don, ->OD, ->Mar, ->Air, and others. These guys could beat anyone that came at them. They were always on top of the kill board. In those days, finishing on top of the kill board meant something because everyone was in a turnfiter. People debated about who was better by comparing kill ratios and points . They weren’t dirty words or pointless numbers back then because all of us were more or less doing the same thing. Anyway, I’d battle these guys over the pond in fierce furballs. My friend Caper took up the PJ and joined their ranks. I stayed on the other side and continued to fight the WM’s every chance I got. One day, it got back to me that the WM’s might make a spot for me on their roster even though I didn’t fly a PJ. They didn’t have a hard fast rule about flying the PJ, it was just that in those days the PJ was the most dangerous plane in the game when flown by the right person. I joined the squad but stayed loyal to my spit. It was nothing against the PJ or those that flew it, I just loved the elegant simplicity of killing in my spit. It was easy getting kills in my spit and I was down to having few equals. I was hesitant to start at the bottom of the learning curve again. I’ll always respect those guys from those days who ruled the skies in their twin boomed fighters. Things continued blissfully for everyone and the WM’s ruled the kill board whether it was in RR1 or RR2.
Then one day it happened. I remember the exact moment vividly. I was furballing on the deck at the pond. There was an enemy A8 zooming through the fight. Sure enough, he shot me down, along with several others, then went merrily on his unmolested way. It was a long time ago but I think it was SONEK. I died a few more times to this new threat, and had no luck chasing these hated “cherry pickers” down. I came to the sad realization that an era was coming to an end. It was the end of The Happy Time. Many people complained bitterly about this new style of flying, this BnZ tactic, but soon BnZ pilots topped the killboards. Guys like Krieg, SONEK, and later =Bill ruled the scores. It was Caper, now going under the Cpid ->SUN who convinced me to try the focke wulf. Like me, ->SUN didn’t want to fly what everyone else was starting to fly so he, then I, took up the FW a4 instead of the a8. A little lighter and nimbler, but less lethal than the a8, the A4 was a great bird to fly. Soon I was blazing through furballs, feeding greedily spits, PJ’s, yaks, Hurris, whatever got in my path. BnZ tactics were nothing new, but in the past BnZ’ers were not nearly so prevalent in numbers. Well the old school turnfighters were incensed. A huge ongoing row commenced. Many people quit the game because, “It just wasn’t the same anymore.” Instead of adapt, these people chose to die off.
Oddly, fantasy mirrors history here. At the onset of WWII planes like the 109, zero, hurricane, and spit were the mainstay of airpower. Quickly pilots and leaders realized that turnfighting lead to death. Demands were made for faster, more lethal planes. The Germans developed the Focke wulf line. The brits countered by loading cannon onto spits, and powering them with bigger engines. The Americans entered the fray with the P51 Mustang. Later, Germans developed Kurt Tank’s plane, the D9, and the Me 262, both in few numbers. The point here is, that as the war developed, fast fighters and interceptors were developed, not tighter turning aircraft. Strategy evolved.
For a classic example of this evolution, look to the jap zero. At the onset of WWII, the Zeke was the class of fighter planes. In less than 3 years, American hellcats and corsairs with their huge frames housing staggering horsepower, were shooting down jap Zero’s at amazing clips. It became quickly apparent that turnfighting was an obsolete way of waging war in the sky.
Well there were those who could not reconcile that the game was changing in a similar fashion so they did one of two things: they quit like those who I mentioned or they stubbornly kept to their turnfighters, declaring that those who flew the fast planes and used BnZ tactics to be unskilled and somehow ignoble. There was nothing wrong with wanting things to remain as they were but these stubborn people fail to realize one certainty about all things in life: nothing stays the same. Instead of adapting to the changes on the game, these people merely decided that anyone not turnfighting was somehow inferior. In the old days, anyone who finished near the top of the kill board, or with a kill/death ratio of say, 3 to 1 or better, was generally respected for his abilities. New kill/death ratios climbed over 5 to 1 and better as BnZ tactics were used more and more frequently.. A8 pilots also now topped the kill boards. Did the turnfighters adapt? Decidedly no. They merely began to exclaim, and often, that points didn’t matter. Ratios didn’t matter. What used to be used as a gauge of ones skill(ratio more than points), were now considered irrelevant because the turnfighters couldn’t keep up. Today, these same type of antiquated, obsolete whiners still exist. These people will take off in their PJ’s and spits voluntarily. While there is certainly nothing wrong with this, it is in this group of people that all the whining is coming from. Frankly, I fail to see the logic in their crying. People like VMPR, Donk, Irvn, Brit, Murdr all choose to fly slow planes then cry or call names when they cannot catch the Fw’s and ponies, like their inability to stay with their opponent is anyone’s fault but their own. I laugh at them to be honest. I mean, I could understand if these same planes weren’t available to them but we all choose from the same plane set. What would these guys say if the next time one of them shot me down if I whined like them, “There you go again, turning your plane!” It’s ok for them to win a turnfight, but if I win a fight using E tactics I am a dweeb. The truly humorous thing here is that these same people fail to see their own hypocrisy. They quickly decry their skill if they manage to shoot down someone in an Fw or pony, but when the reverse is true, said fw or pony pilot is a no-skill dweeb. To these guys, using your planes strengths is only ok if you’re in a turnfighter.
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continued:
The general individual goal of the game is to kill as many people as you can each flight. Let’s use a couple examples of the differing styles of fighting and compare. We’ll use VMPR as the turnfighter. VMPR flies a PJ and loudly proclaims it as the best fighter in the game. VMPR has a web site that instructs PJ pilots and is acknowledged as an accomplished turnfighter. VMPR, however, is not your typical furballer. He will leave a furball if he is disadvantaged, assuming he can disengage, and come back with alt. He is also known to come in high and use E or rope tactics. These are not bad tactics, merely atypical of a pure turnfighter. In spite of this we will use him as our example of a turnfighter. For our BnZ guy, let’s use Steve. Steve is the embodiment of the energy or BnZ fighter. Steve flies a pony and acknowledges that it has certain disadvantages over other Bnz planes: average roll rate, poor lethality. With the previously stated goal in mind, let’s analyze the stats for the pilots representing our two styles of play, using numbers from the current (October 2001) campaign. If you look at VMPR’s landed missions only, you will se he has a respectable 2.28 kills per mission. Steve has a landed kill ratio of 3.83 kills per mission, over a kill and a half better per mission. If you consider overall kills for all flights, VMPR has kills per mission ratio of 1.64. This means that VMPR gets an average of 1.64 kills for every time he takes off. Steve averages 2.29 kills for every time he presses the “fly” button. Clearly, Steve has more prolific numbers in both categories. If you consider what was once the measuring stick of skill but is now deemed irrelevant by the turnfighters, kill/death ratio, you truly begin to see the difference in the two styles of play. VMPR’s over all kill/death ratio is 3.16 to 1. Remember, VMPR swears that the PJ is the best plane in the game. So, flying a turnfighter and the best plane in the game, VMPR has a kill ratio of 3.16 to 1. Steve has a kill/death ratio of 17.85 to 1 in his mustang, over 5 times better than VMPR’s. Let’s consider these guys head to head. In the last several campaigns, our two intrepid case studies have met 1v1 on only a handful of occasions. The results were the same EVERY time but one: stalemate no kill. VMPR didn’t kill Steve 1v1 a single time. The once exception to this was a 1v1 west of THO. Steve had alt and wore down VMPR’s alt, patience, and options. Eventually VMPR made a mistake and got shot down. VMPR will give any number of reasons for his loss, as is typical of these whiny turnfighters, but the fact is he died and Steve didn’t. In other encounters where VMPR had alt over Steve, VMPR was unable to kill Steve even a single time. Does this mean that Steve is a better pilot than VMPR? Absolutely not. This is in no way a comparison of individual skills, merely one of flying styles.
The point? One point is that all these turnfighters who whine about people flying fast planes are whining about picking their own poison! Nobody forces them to fly slow planes. Nobody holds a gun to their head and forces them to turnfight. Another point is that if the object is to shoot down as many planes as possible, whether you survive or not, then the plane to fly is a BnZ’er. If the point of the game is to kill as many planes as possible and to survive, the obvious logical choice is to fly a BnZ plane.
It’s time for you cry babies in your turnfighters to shut up. The fact is that like historical air war, the game has evolved and you have not! You choose the planes you fly, you deliberately put yourselves in disadvantaged planes. How can you possibly blame anyone but yourselves? Fly your big fat slow planes if you must, but keep your whining to yourselves, it’s nobody’s fault but your own that you get left eating the dust of the faster planes in the game. Some of you will foolishly say that anyone could get in a fast plane and kill. I say, prove it! I’ve flown turnfighters with success so I’ve been on both sides of the fence. Realize this absolutely crucial element of the game: The best skill you can have has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game or the planes. The most important skill to possess is: good decision-making. A smart pilot will beat or at least survive over a skilled pilot every time. How? A smart pilot will avoid getting himself in situation where he will get killed. Are all turnfighters whiners? Certainly not! Most of them quietly go about their business of enjoying the game. But to those who are always heard on channel one whining about getting left behind I say, “ Hey, you chose the plane to fly, obviously, you chose poorly.” Take your medicine, you picked it yourself, not us.
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Originally posted by lazs2
sc sp00k... I don't care if you fly dee9's... fly em all you like. fly em against other dee 9's but... if all you can do is cherry pick people who are busy with real fights then I don't feel sorry for you when you are not allowed to play in their area... you will still have the majority of the arena to play in but you will have to fight more of your ilk... you can also fly in the early war area it's just that.... you will have to do so with a little risk and without the huge advantage that you seem unable to do without now
ok...after reading this i had to reply (something I rarely do even though I read basically every thread every day here) and I have to point out just how silly this point of view is. Especially silly was the "real fights" bit. So the dweebs on the deck furballing are the REAL pilots huh?
YOU don't like B/Z late war planes because they feed on YOU. Period. End of story. Basically this is a big WHAAA whine. Here is a tip, get some SA. If you fly on the deck over and over again to a furball, (like a dweeb) you should expect to get killed by a fast b/z pilot. Me? Heck I will probably never ever meet you in the sky because I tend to be the guy feeding on the B/Z's.
In WWII how often did fights digress into 5k furballs over some town? Not many pilots up'd a spit V from England, flying w/ weps on the deck over the channel, and getting into a lo-alt furball. Most fights were b/z, angle, or E fighting. Most planes DID fly real fast and high. Alt = Energy = Life. Those late war pilots flying fast and high are being way more realistic than you are.
I am sorry that you want everyone to fly furballs. Furballs are cute, and are great places to hunt the fringes of, but fun? Yeah sometimes they are fun. Sure. Usually they are fairly lame. It depends on my mood I guess. BUT... you won't catch me squeaking about the 262 on the fringe of the fringe hunting ME.
Hey!!! maby I should start a whine about how we need to change the whole game to suit my dislikes for the guy in the 262 who kills me as I kill the ones that seem to be killing you.
Bah...it's all for fun anyway. Leave the game alone. If you don't like the d9,la7,51d,109g10,yak, then learn the SA required to avoid them.
+Lute
III/JG26 9thST Widow Maker +WM81
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Originally posted by Revvin
Furballers have enough concessions though it is nice to see them whine :D
:)
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Originally posted by flyingaround
Bah...it's all for fun anyway. Leave the game alone. If you don't like the d9,la7,51d,109g10,yak, then learn the SA required to avoid them.[/B]
Or just get a faster plane.
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I guess I'm one of the whiney turn-fighters, since I think the notion that 'the best pilots are the one that never get into a fight' is rather silly.
Just my personal opinion though.
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Originally posted by lazs2
reschke... first off there is nothing wrong with not knowing anyone except... if we want "community".. HTC believes in community and seperate arenas kill community. An "area" within the arena permits community and.... allows for seemless jumping from early war fights to late.
I understand what you are going for Lazs but I just don't understand how the "community" will suffer because of having a different arena for furballs only. One example that I can offer is the FFA and Arcade servers of Fighter Ace. Lets put the game aside for a moment and concentrate on the arenas. There is significant movement between the different servers by players who enjoy all aspects of the game. Sure you have some which only stick to one aspect like Arcade mode but many move between them all. Back when I played FA on a regular basis I flew in all the servers. Simply because I enjoyed getting around the game to see what else was happening. Now in AH I do the same thing based on what is in the CT, whats happening in the DA, I rarely if ever play H2H because I don't like that unless I am in a server with my buddies. Lastly I head to the TA for some plain old flying and to work on specific things like my CV landings or how to avoid something someone tried on me.
Either way good thoughts and good luck. I am off to coach little league baseball.
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Urcin, no disrespect intended.. I want to be clear: SOME turnfiters.
I like getting into good ol' fights in my pony... you know.. flaps on-flaps off-back on again-where did he go?-oh toejam there he is-stall warning screaming in my ear kinda fights. :)
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Fights are far and few between now, for me at least.
umm...weren't you the 20k yak near 88 last night...? Fights are there - try looking down.
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Originally posted by Hornet
umm...weren't you the 20k yak near 88 last night...? Fights are there - try looking down.
umm...no. You'll never, ever see me over 12 at the most. 6K is where I stay usually.
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No to RPS. Didn't like it in the WB MA cannot see why I would here.
Hwkeye
The Flying Zoo
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Originally posted by SLO
someone has to come up with something to prevent the easy plane access.....(la7's....D9's....pee51's)
You guys are blaming an aircraft for what the pilot does. It doesn't matter what plane is flown, you're always will get a pilot that will run. Maybe if there was a formal and well established training program like there was in AW, it would probably go farther in cutting down the cases of runners than limiting what aircraft people could fly.
Ack-Ack
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Add 4 plane factories per side as strat targets.
Factories:
P51D
FW190D
Typhoon
La7
If a factory is bombed to hell,that plane is disabled for that country until resupplied.
*Bonus Knight Fm2 factory to piss off Lazs...
:D
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Add 4 plane factories per side as strat targets.
Factories:
P51D
FW190D
Typhoon
La7
If a factory is bombed to hell,that plane is disabled for that country until resupplied.
*Bonus Knight Fm2 factory to piss off Lazs...
:D
overall not bad idea:)
how do u think, which will be allways flat?
i bet on la7:D :D
ramzey
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Add 4 plane factories per side as strat targets.
Factories:
P51D
FW190D
Typhoon
La7
If a factory is bombed to hell,that plane is disabled for that country until resupplied.
*Bonus Knight Fm2 factory to piss off Lazs...
:D
You do that and you'll start off a whine fest of the likes never seen before in the history of AH.
Air Warrior used to have Spitfire factories, if you destroyed it, the enemy couldn't up any new Spitfires. It was the best way to cut down the numbers of a country that had a numerical advantage, since usually half would log off as soon as they lost their Spitfire.
Ack-Ack
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Apache at 20k ????
BRAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA !!!
...ah
no
I'm usually 3k above the deck and Apache's saying "Poop six"..."Poop a 51 dropping in"...."Poop, ya have 2 on you"..."Poop, you have a group on ya"... "Poop, I'm comin"..."Poop ??????"
If anything, I give Apache and Lazs quite a bit of vocal exercise on a nightly basis..
Think of it as a squad exercise in clearing ones throat..
My contribution to this thread: To wit::
( and I thought of it all by myself )
The fields on infinity are toooooo far apart.
With the distances, late war planes are the rides of choice. They HAVE to be, and that's the rub.
And that's what you see on a nightly basis, with the exception of a good CV fight..
Which aren't as often as the first time through..
Maybe all the "fighters" are busy playing tanks in the crater ???
I'd put my money on that..
Takers ??
I'd play tanks too, but I have found out that no matter how fast I'm going in the tank when it goes off a cliff, IT STILL DOESN'T FLY..
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This is an incredibly long thread. Steve, buddy! How about some paragraphs?? You're killin' my eyes :) JK
My point. The trouble, as always, in all SIMMS is not everybody gets their jollies quite the same way. You have the furballers, the buffers, the jabo guys, and the mission oriented Historical types.
The 339th is a Historical Squad and we try to fly our rides in a Historic manner. Yep, the P-51 or Peee51 as someone said. To fly this correctly you never turn fight. Always BnZ. If the odds get bad you call OUT!! and run. For me the Fly till ya Die mentality doesn't work. I try to improve my streaks and fly complete missions. I try to improve my K/D ratio. Don't get me wrong I die waaaay too much but these are my goals in the SIMM.
I guess I too don't understand the initial intent of this thread. With 500+ guys in the MA there always seems to be a place for me to play my kind of game. I may have to move fields and spend some quality study time on the map, but sooner or later I find the type of game I'm looking for.
To close, I like the Tank Town idea. I agree with others that said to "Go to the CT for an RPS type of fight". The CT needs to "catch on" but there is a lot of fun to be had in a Axis vs Allied venue with all or nearly all of the correct planes there.
All Cool thread,
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Anybody that wants the 20 to 30k guys to come down for an "easy" kill.... fly a 38/47. They'll be on you like poop.
The arena's offer plenty of FB's and the gun then run as well.
I dont see the problem beyond alot of late model birds. BUT... no matter WHAT plane set your in people are going to go for the "best" ride they can. The average joe isnt into putting himself at a disadvantage.
My style is a pure mix... I'll fly E then go hard TnB. I think what we'll see is that as time progresses that more and more of the runners will advance to a point where they'll stick around for more fights and do less of that dive down to 1k above you then zoom back up crap expecting you to follow.
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ok... let's clear some things up... first... I don't want to take anything away from anyone.. I'm all about choice but... I'm a lso about parity and variety. Forget what was right or wrong in "the war"... this isn't war... this is a game that relies on parity variety and choice to be fun. useing "the war" to justify an inherant advantage that you get by simply clicking on the right plane is silly
most suggestions I see here.."grab a fast plane" "go to the CT" 'go to the dueling arena' "have a seperate arena"... these aren't about choice, they are about limiting choice, parity and variety
The current MA is about limiting choice... Fly a fast plane or die or be bored to death... fly a fast plane and take a little longer to be bored to death..
The current MA isn't about variety... choose any plane you like but choose a fast late war one or die or be bored to death.
The current MA isn't about parity... choose a fast plane or you have no parity with the planes you will face in the situations you will face.
The early war area within the arena simply, in one fell swoop, double or quadruples the amount of types of planes that are viable and will be used and... it does that because it adds parity. It allows people to choose to B & Z or to turnfight as their basic fight... everyone can and should still energy fight or angles fight but.... now you aren't facing a plane that is 50 mph slower than yours or 50 mph faster.
With the area arena... you can fight one sortie in the early area and another in the later one.... yu can choose any plane in the set and still be in the same arena.
The ct won't work... it is axis vs allied and has some other settings that seperate it from the community and make it less popular... (why doesn't it have 600 when it has La7's for instance?)
Oh.. and for the record... I am not whining about being killed by the B & Zers... check my record against any plane and you will find that the fast planes are die the most to my guns... I find them very easy to kill it is simply that..... they are not much fun to kill (it takes a long time to get to one to kill and they die easily... poor return for my effort)... and... they are no fun at all to dodge or worse... watch for.
And steve... i have no idea what you wrote cause no way will I read a pargraph that is two posts long, but I am sure it is a very long winded justification for keeping easy pickings for you in the MA.. I'm sure it had some nod to history and to how you really do fight like a banshee and that everything is fine as it is.... yu are wrong.
lazs
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I think Dale has a plan
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lets take the 51 or dee 9 for instance... if you fly em you want to find planes that are from -5 to 50mph slower than you because... you can hit them with immunity if you use even slight sa and skill and... make it home.. they can't catch yo in time even if they are 5 mph faster. You want the field more than a sector apart so that it spreads out the population so that you are not in danger or your sa is overwhelmed and a fast plane eats you when you swoop down to take a sissy little kick at someone.
MOST of all.... you don't want to not have slow planes to cherry pick or to form fights down low that you can hit and run while they are fighting. You are afraid that wihout slow planes you will all spend your entire time hiding from each other or forming up in safe groups to hide from other groups.
If you fly a slow plane you want other slow planes to fight who can't really get away and don't want to... you want closer fiels so that you don't have to fly forever and... so that you can maybe make it home if you are jumped.
Currently we can't please both camps with the MA.... I think my area arena could.
laz
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Add 4 plane factories per side as strat targets.
Factories:
P51D
FW190D
Typhoon
La7
If a factory is bombed to hell,that plane is disabled for that country until resupplied.
*Bonus Knight Fm2 factory to piss off Lazs...
:D
This is a GREAT idea. HTC should consider it.
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"Fighter Town" in AW was really alot of fun. It wasn't officially called that, we just sorta enforced no buffing in that area of the map. Bases were close together, and was a lot of furballin' and even some 1vs1 and 2vs1 goin on. We need to do something like that here, in the MA.
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Originally posted by slimm50
"Fighter Town" in AW was really alot of fun. It wasn't officially called that, we just sorta enforced no buffing in that area of the map. Bases were close together, and was a lot of furballin' and even some 1vs1 and 2vs1 goin on. We need to do something like that here, in the MA.
Nope, there was a dedicated Fighter Town arena where the planeset was limited to early, mid or late war planes depending on that particular months setup. No bombers were available and one of the 3 sides was disabled. I spent almost a year in that arena and had a blast learning and applying ACM in mostly 1v1 situations.
There was a 'fighter town' area on the Pacific map but it was just an area in the middle of the map where the fields were for the most part unporkable. There was no way to stop those fields from being bombed with the exception of community feedback.
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lazs2,
You DIDN'T clear anything up. You did try to tell players what and how to play. You may think you can do this but you can't. Ain't gonna happen.
Please do not tell me I can't fly my ride as if it was in the War. I can and I will and I do!! I will BnZ the crap out of you and run away with impunity. That's the way it was done in the War. So that's they way I do it now, Historically. That's my "thing". I also fly the Hawg, Spits and love the FM2. I try to fly them historically also. Nothing, no one, no map, and certainly someone elses presumed rules are ever going to make me change my method. It's how I have fun! You will certainly not never find me telling anyone else how to have a good time either. I couldn't possibly know.
I still think the CT is an RPS arena. I like to go there.
Hopefully THAT cleared things up. I didn't agree with most of your post. But then again it's yours and I respect that!
Regards,
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Lazs whines about any way of playing that does'nt match his and he comes up with silly little names to call those groups or pilots of a particular plane.
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What is RPS??
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20 min flight in FM2 to fight, priceless.
4 min fight kill 3-4 bad guys, priceless.
20 min rtb kills, land kills, fuel porked to 25%, priceless.
For everything else theres Mastercard.
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RPS= Rolling Plane Set
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Can't see how ToD can operate without it....
SKurj
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When I am in that kind of mood, which is just sometimes, I have enjoyed the historical match-ups in the Combat Theater arena and its really nice maps. I also enjoy the events, but I do not want to fly an event every day either.
So please no "warbirds" style RPS in the Main Arena. I prefer not to be told what to fly when I am just logging on to have some mindless fun.
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dracon... fly however you like... i have never said otherwise... I think you are being silly thinking that you fly in any slight way "historicaly" in our "anything goes free spirit MA" nothing could be farther from real combat... but... do it if you like.
All I am saying is... give others the opportunity to have fun in the arena also. My idea would take nothing from you (show me where you think it would). If you feel you have to justify starting out every fight with a huge advantage then that is your problem not mine. You certainly are no problem to me... I never see you... I never am in the same "fight" you are in... And.... I have no problem whatsoever prevailing against fast planes that think they can "b&z the crap out of me and run away with impunity" please look at my record against such planes... killing them is easy... it's just not much fun... hardly worth the effort. The worst turnfighter in the game is more fun to fight than the best B&z'er for me.
revin... besides not having anything to say as usuall... you also seem to have failed to grasp even the slightest hint of what I want. So... I guess you had best stick with making it up as you go.
lazs
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Originally posted by SKurj
Can't see how ToD can operate without it....
SKurj
But the upcoming ToD is a different setup than the MA. You won't see a RPS in the upcoming AH Classic Arena, while you'll get one in the ToD arena(s).
Ack-Ack
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So basically lazs2, you're saying that fast planes are making it not fun for you, and that flying fast planes is taking fun away from other too.
Laz quote: All I am saying is... give others the opportunity to have fun in the arena also.
lol Poor you!
BTW, all my long post really said was: quit whining about what people fly, you have the same plane set to choose from.
You have issues Laz.... someone disagrees with you, you go straight to insults. Why can't people just have a different viewpoint than yours?
Tell ya what, why don't you create an H2H arena that has a max alt of 2K and the only plane that anyone can choose is an FM2.. unless you change your mind. God forbid someone didn't fly exactly how you want them to. I just don't think you'll be happy until things go your way. Plus if you have an H2H server, you can take your ball and go home any time you want.
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Lazs, some might be worried that it will be harder to get kills if there are furballs which are not accessible for cherry picking. Otherwise, I can't see why anyone would object to an early war area in the MA. My only misgiving is the problem of chosing an appropriate early war plane set, that would provide both variety and parity.
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Unlike your posts which are just snide and condescending which is why I chose to put you on ignore and click on a link if I wished to read more of your inane ramblings. It's the same old crap from you, the same arcadey idea's so there is no reason to click on another post of yours, just cut the line and let the little fishy go on rambling.
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Shorter runways favor slower airplanes. The shortest runway in the game is a carrier deck. More carriers!
Official supporter of "GoFaster's Port On Every Island Idea" (tm) :cool:
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Originally posted by MrLars
Nope, there was a dedicated Fighter Town arena where the planeset was limited to early, mid or late war planes depending on that particular months setup. No bombers were available and one of the 3 sides was disabled. I spent almost a year in that arena and had a blast learning and applying ACM in mostly 1v1 situations.
For me, those were the golden years of AW. The dedicated FT was, I think, 1998-99. Before then there was nothing like it, and afterwards it was that atoll in the middle of BigPac.
No reason you couldn't do the same here, if you wanted to. Put a three-base island somewhere on the very most distant edges of the map. Enable only a particular set of planes at those bases. Do whatever trick is necessary so that hangers, fuel &c. can't be porked. Turn the ack way up. Bombers will have no reason to visit, vulchers will be discouraged, you'll have a very serviceable air combat area on the main map. Isn't this what Lasz has been pushing all along?
For anyone who hasn't had a chance to fly in an early-war plane set, visit the CT when one is enabled. Tonite, for example, is the last night of F4Fs v. A6M2s, but the desert, Sicily and Battle of Britain maps are almost always early- or mid-war sets. The planes are an absolute delight to fly (most of them), and you're missing out on a lot of fun if you haven't tried it. If you're without the imagination or romance to enjoy the historical matchups of the CT, push for a FT in your MA.
- oldman
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lazs2
Silly??? Thanks, you made my day! Yup, I am being Silly. I am SIMMULATING!
I am having a Great time doing it here in AH. I love it!
That's what I came for. I pay my $15 and do it MY way:)
Dracon
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
I enjoyed running down palef in his D9 in my A6M2 last night...
He was buzzing low bugging away from some teamates. I had angle and about 4k on him... dove in to 420 ias saddled to 400m and dumped into him with the HO cannons. He then dora danced into my pickle and tried one last desperation throttle chop manuever.. I also chopped and now was 85m of his 6...
Vaporazation.......
Chalk one up for the slow bastage bottom feeders....
It can be done...
2 cents
DoctorYO
It was an F8 :)
You scared the crap outta me!
palef
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If you're without the imagination or romance to enjoy the historical matchups of the CT, push for a FT in your MA.
- oldman [/B]
Historical matchups are cool but my favorite fights in Fightertown were when Drano < and many others > and I would face off in 109's. The reason I flew there was to get rid of my RR training wheels...I never ventured into the other arenas afterwards though, for me, there's nothing more fun than getting into a dozen or so 1v1's in a single hour of flying.
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Originally posted by MrLars
...There was a 'fighter town' area on the Pacific map but it was just an area in the middle of the map where the fields were for the most part unporkable. There was no way to stop those fields from being bombed with the exception of community feedback.
That's the one I remember. If some yayhoo tried to bomb the fields there he'd catch holy hell from everyone else. I didn't go to the Fighter Town arena much, since there didn't seem to be very many people there. For my money, the unofficial FT in the PAC map was much more fun.
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this debate is still going on...? sigh
lazs.. you know that's not going to happen (multi-arena main)
you know that there will be a new arena and that some players will prefer that, some will prefer furballs, some want both.
some, as you say, just want to cherry pick.
having fields closer together won't change that one bit.
(I tried it)
I'd be willing to bet that the MA stays as is
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Must......Resist..........Nam ing........Apache.........Mus t.......Resist!!!
Stringer
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umm...no. You'll never, ever see me over 12 at the most. 6K is where I stay usually.
my bad then...heard a squaddie say he had just got cherried by a high yak shortly before 5 or so similarly high nits swooped in on me for a good fight. My faulty SA assigned that yak to you...So seeing this thread the next day was worth a good laugh ;)
not that I really have a problem with high-alt guys. I'll fight anywhere dont really give a crap about the latewar/earlywar drama - just as long as folks keep the good reading coming to pass the workday.
Just never understood why HT put so many fighters in a buff simulation, I'll make do tho.
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I don't post much, but had to read through this entire thread. Alot of interesting posts, even read Steve's double post, lol, and remember those past days well.
Used to fly mostly zeke, loved the low and dirty turnfights. Switched to a tiffy mianly now because of the faster planes most are flying just to try to keep in pace. Yeah, I run some, exspecially when they get the best of me, but still start out turnfighting in the damn thing. Habits are hard to break.
Would rather have a good turn fight anyday (win or lose) and don't mind that others like some that have posted like the BNZ style. The only frustrating point was having one zoom in for the quick flyby kill after working sometimes for 10-20 mins against like type aircrafts. After a period of months of constantly trying to dodge the "late entries" while still working turns against others was the main reason I shifted to a tiffy.
Not a whine here, don't mind who flies what and how. But for those that posted about why alot now has shifted to faster planes, this is probably the answer as why some did. I did, and I know thats the main reason why a few others upgraded to the LA-7, P51, Tiffy and others.
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Kaz
lol.. know what ya mean.
I try to avoid the blatant kill steal if I'm gonna bounce. I'll ask a guy if he is ok.. if he doesn't answer, I'll let the fight go if he seems ok... if he looks in trouble.. I'll go down and clean his 6... even then ya run the risk of breakin up the guys fun.. ahh well :)
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Originally posted by Stringer
Must......Resist..........Naming........Apache.........Must.......Resist!!!
Stringer
Ah, come on, where's your sense of adventure? Let yourself go. Don't hold back.
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Quite a few seem to get upset when our Public Relations Officer comes forth with statements advocating a different kind of set up in a portion of the big maps that are now being rolled out.
Let's break this down and see if he is talkin though his hat.
To keep it simple, break seasoned sim pilots down into three groups.
Base takers. Map requirements are minimal beyond having the room to attack bases of choice. Some defended, some not. The base is "there" and by God there going to take it. From what I've seen, might be wrong, they like the bigger maps for the options that come with it.
"Historical" pilots. Granted the Main is a strange place for the passtime but it can be done, and done well. Dracon is a prime example. He enjoys flying in a quasay historical manner. Here again, map requirments are minimal, fuel is not of a concern. With the addition of the base takers he is provided a "historical" situation where ever they choose to attack. A sort of built in "game". There out there, strap it up and enjoy.
Fighters. This when it changes a bit. A fighter is in it for the fight. Please don't be confused, a fighter flys to live, BUT he also flys for the fight. The "fight" is why he flys. While the other options expressed above are admirable and no doubt a hell of alot of fun for the participants, to a fighter, it's a bore.
For a fighter, he has to find the "fight". He has to find a group of his persuasion to go toe to toe with. Where map arrangement for the most part mean little to the first two groups, for the fighter, it's the difference between having a GREAT fight, or flying around looking at the pretty terrain.
Not to say those occupations with addition of GV'ing aren't a blast to those that enjoy it. Hell this game is just plain fun.
There's an area where midwar plane fights exsists right now on a good night.
The CV's
More CV's, harder CV's, bases closer together promote the "fight"
Wonder why the panties get wadded up when some hero sinks the CV ?? It's because it's one of the very few places on the current maps where you COUNT ON getting a bunch of "fighters" having a blast with there hair on fire.
Fighting is just more map "important" then the other groups.
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Nice evaluation nopoop!
I think everything is here as is. Some nights you may have to look harder to find what you want, but it's always there somewhere:)
I think everything stays calm and cool until someone tries to tell others how to play their game or starts lobing Word Granades at another group.
Cyas in another thread somewhere,
To all
Dracon
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dracon... fighters don't want to spend a fruitless night searching for good fights. A good fight is one with about even numbers and plane parity.
The current maps are set up so that it is not possible for those two things to happen except by chance. first... you can't have good fights with large even numbers if the fields are far apart and... if the fields are far apart you can't have plane parity. far fields are gangbang and timid maps... they force people into the late fast rides. As poopie points out... us fighters do want a chance to survive... we don't want to "give" away a kill to someone we think didn't earn it if we can help it.
further.... while I have no real respect for the skill of anyone who doesn't fight me on some sort of even keel.... I realize that this is what gets some people off... the advantage... I am not trying to force those people to change or to take away their choice fly in any manner they choose... My idea simply adds something... it takes nothing away except.... the late war guys have can't fly 50-100 mph advantaged planes against lesser ones in one small area.... they can ignore that area for the rest of their lives so far as I care. I think they would be happier with the people that understand them than getting their butts and egos kicked in the little early war area anyway.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
we are not recruiting.. when someone dies maybe we will send you an application but.. probly not.. we don't like you.
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70% of MA is full of spits, n1k2 and La7s. Cant understand why the presence of some G10s or D9s may be a problem to find a typical turn til puke fight.
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mandoble.... fly an early war plane for a tour and then tell me how easy it is to find good fights in the infinity and pizza map. Till then... you probly are a little over your head in this discussion.
I like seeing spits. if we could trade every pee 51 or dd9 or gee 10 for a spit I would at least have someone to fight... spits fight. they have to. La7's even are better than the former planes... they at least fight too. If everyone flew what you flew then everyone would be as unhappy as you are.
lazs
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lazs2, so we must eliminate the SpitIX because the Spit I pilots cant catch it, right? The point is that very few pople fly Spit I and Spit IX is used by hordes or players. Of course, Spit I cant catch 190D9 too, but D9 is used by very few pople compared to SpitIX. D9/G10 presence have a limited impact on those who fly planes like Spit I, in the other hand SpitIX has a mayor impact on them.
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MANDOBLE,
I like flying the Mosquito. The Fw190D-9 and Bf109G-10 have far more impact on me than does the Spitfire Mk IX.
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bull.... I hate dee 9's... I think they should be perked if anything should and I think that seeing one in the game is a bad thing... rather see 100 more spits for every dee 9 we have now.
dee 9's are a useless annoyance for me... at least I can have some fun with spits in the game. I can't imagine what kind of a person gets off on flying a dee 9 in the arena.
lazs
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Karnak, the impact of a plane in the MA can be easily measured: number of kills and number deaths. The same applies to individual players, do you mean that your moskito has been shot down by Doras more times than by Spits?
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MANDOBLE,
Actually, I've not been shot down by any of those this Tour.
That isn't what I meant though.
If there is an 190 or 109 icon in the area it massively affects my actions. SPIT and N1K icons simply do not have any real affect on my actions. They are simply not fast enough and I have options against them.
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steve.... of course you would advocate leaving things as they are... you fly a pee 51... there is no way that my idea can help your game out... and.... as points out... you will probly lose some of your advantage since there would be fewer less capable planes for you to fly against.
13 tas... flew and flys 51's stevie... of all the 51 squads and individuals... I would say they flew em the most agressivly... they liked to fight... they flew relatively low (for 51's) and felt sorta like you do now. but...
they flew some tours in slow planes.. they have a better understanding now of how this works. I believe that you would be easier to take seriously if you flew a tour in a slow plane like the fm2 or the spit5 .... when you do that we can talk again about how everything is just fine the way it is in the arena..lazs
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Whats the problem? There can be many fights found if you fly a Spit5 or a FM2, I fly them as much as a P-51, and never have trouble finding any fights..
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Apache! I had my own RPS thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61893) in here last August. Got all the same whines etc.
What I have had to do since is to contemplate why people fly what they fly the way they fly it. Many people seek a challenge. Others seek WW2 realism. Others still want nothing more than to rack up points on the board so they can gloat about it later. (My schlong bigger than yours - as Dowding might say) Personally, I like a challenge but also like to imagine the role the plane I'm flying might have had in WW2. The P47 with its diving ability and huge armament; the P51 with its speed and range. The 190 with its awesome roll rate; the 109x for its climb rate and "zoominess".
Lazs is right in that if you do choose to fly a slow plane, you might not make it home. I remember whacking a 109 in my F4U, and the same guy then upped an LA7 from a distant field to come and nail me having gained alt, but I managed to barrel roll all the way back to the CV. Gunthr! I always limit the time I stick around because of that - the infuriated enemy will up LA7s from a base 5 minutes away - assuming we're playing on the Bouncy Castle children's maps - less of a problem on Trinity & Pizza.
Another consideration is that "The Kidz" are not renowned for their interest in WW2, and therefore might not see a campaign as a team effort - so no rescues, 6-calls, answers to voxx or textbuff questions - and my k/d takes a nose dive.
I said I liked to experience/imagine what individual planes could do in the real WW2 - not because what I'm flying was necessarily the best at anything. Hehe, that's why I got that VW Beet1e - it's crap, but a whole different kind of fun- and I wanted to know what it was like to have been one of the millions for whom it opened the door to motoring.
Of course, not everyone in the MA has the same objectives as me. The high performance wannabe has no interest in what interests me, and will often be found in a LA7. Only last week, I was in a 190D9, and engaged about four planes - killed all of them. While this was going on, the first guy I killed re-upped to get me. Now here's a multiple choice for you. Did he re-up in a Spit, P51, 109, or.... LA7? See if you can work it out. ;) He got a kill credit of me - I had run out of fuel and augered.
Summary
Being one who likes to experience different planes, and how they were in WW2, an RPS would make the game more interesting. BUT... many players do not have even half an interest in WW2, and want only to fly "their" plane and rack up as many points as possible. That's why they don't want an RPS. And that's why k/t is such a gamey stat.
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wilthing said.. "Whats the problem? There can be many fights found if you fly a Spit5 or a FM2, I fly them as much as a P-51, and never have trouble finding any fights.."
well yes.... that sounds good wildthing until you realize that HTC keeps very good stats on what players do. If we take you at your word that you "fly them as much as a p-51," then...
you are indeed having trouble finding fights since this tour you haven't gotten one kill or death in a spit 5 or FM2 you must be having a lot of trouble finding a fight... yu did get 74 kills in a pee 51 and 7 in the dee 9 and one in the 152, 5 in the 262... the only real early war plane you flew was the hurriII and spit one and you got 14 and 1 respectively.
you did get 16 kills in a nik and 10 in an f6f not quite early war but close. so....
It appears that you eaither don't know what you are talking about or you don't know what a fight really is. your previous tour was even more lopsided pee 51 wise. with allmost no kills or deaths in early war planes... you are having more trouble finding a fight than I am.
lazs
Public Relations Offficer for the BK's
__________________
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Hmm lazs..maybe you should take a look at my other tours where i DID play more than 11 hours...Scores are nothing...I fly a plane that fits my mood at the time..
Tour 37 Spit V = 37 kills ...
Tour 36 Spit V = 30 kills...
Tour 35 Spit V= 33 Kills..
Or how about the Seafire ..Tour 35 = 83 kills
Im not much of a spit dweeb...But Spits and FM2's are pretty easy to fly..it doesnt take much skill to fly em. If you wanna bring in insults as me not knowing what a fight is then maybe i can take you to the DA and show you if i know what a fight is...
Until then Talk is just talk...
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Originally posted by WldThing
Until then Talk is just talk...
Which is why you'll never see Lazs join the Duel Ladder.
(BTW..why don't you check WT's stats in that arena)
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Originally posted by beet1e
Summary
Being one who likes to experience different planes, and how they were in WW2, an RPS would make the game more interesting. BUT... many players do not have even half an interest in WW2, and want only to fly "their" plane and rack up as many points as possible. That's why they don't want an RPS. And that's why k/t is such a gamey stat.
Some just want to fly 'their' plane because that's the plane they enjoy and have a great interest in that particular plane. I've had a life long fascination for the P-38 and no other plane 'does' it for me like the Lightning does. Sure, I'll fly another plane for a hop or two but the it never 'feels' right, almost like I'm cheating on my beloved P-38. And as for points, what are they? Is it like that rank thing?
Ack-Ack
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wildthing... nice smoke job.. you still are getting those kills in tours that you total 200-300 kills so.... you are not finding fights in the early wart planes if you fly them "just as much" as pee 51's... in fact you seem to be unable to find any kind of fight at all in the FM2 that you claim to fly so much.
duel? LOL... sure... come and get me. I would go to a "dueling arena" but the hiding from each and the huge SA challenge of keeping track of (gasp) one other plane that has exactly the same fm of mine is... just too much for me. but... I'm easy to find... sometimes I even go in the CT... you will find me where the planes are fighting.... come on down and show me all that "early war prowess" that you are bragging about with your 30 whole spit 5 and,( how many was that again ) fm2 kills.
yeah... you guys are a real contribution to any early war discussion.
lazs
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Some just want to fly 'their' plane because that's the plane they enjoy and have a great interest in that particular plane. Ack-Ack
Oh sure. Well I accept that, coming from you. But seems like a lot of people have a great interest in LA7! Wonder why that would be... :confused::rolleyes:
Hey ack-ack, brew up some beer. I'll come to your house to help you drink it, and we can talk about P38 v 109G10 evasion techniques. ;)
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Originally posted by lazs2
duel? LOL... sure... come and get me. I would go to a "dueling arena" but the hiding from each and the huge SA challenge of keeping track of (gasp) one other plane that has exactly the same fm of mine is... just too much for me.
Thats your best excuse? Dont want to come in higher then you in the CT or the MA...Dont want to have less fuel than you...Dont want to have less ammo than you. You know all those things that make a person lose a fight..So get some balls and take me to the DA and teach me a lesson.
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WldThing I'm not positive, but I think your . is sticking..
Or stuck..
Or your having a spasm in the third finger of your right hand..
I have a similar problem...
I do this:
z sitzy;ewz dzi;deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....
...when my face hits the keyboard..
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Damn your funny...:rolleyes:
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WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT CUTE LITTLE SMILEY ?????????
That ROCKS !!!
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On your left side...It should say "Smilies" Then there are a whole bunch of faces u can put in a post..
Or you can type ": rolleyes:" ITS THAT SIMPLE!
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Nah, that ain't true, that's a bald faced lie.
On my left side is my throttle thingy, and my cheap beer..
..my two little nazi's
..the bird
sliding glass door..the backyard..
THE WORLD..
NO WHERE in that is there one of those cute wittle smiley things..
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Lazs, you seem obsessed by planes that can turn like God (even better than any spit) at any speed (FM2). Maximun speed doesnt matter, basically you are looking for the easiest and fastest way to get at the enemy six. If you want to play that ridiculous turn til puke game with a bit of challenge, do it in a 190A8.
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No RPS ! TWO CTs! One all PAC -all the time. One Non-Pac-all the time. Plane sets rotate with terrain.
Main arena[/B][/i]terrains huge. Make certain areas reflect different eras. Put HUGE honking deserts between them.
Yeah.
:) ;) :D :p :cool: :eek: :rolleyes:
HEY!Where did those come from?
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
If you want to play that ridiculous turn til puke game with a bit of challenge, do it in a 190A8.
If you want to do that BnZ, run, cherry pick kind of game, why don't you do it in an FM2? That would be a bit of a challenge.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Lazs, you seem obsessed by planes that can turn like God (even better than any spit) at any speed (FM2). Maximun speed doesnt matter, basically you are looking for the easiest and fastest way to get at the enemy six. If you want to play that ridiculous turn til puke game with a bit of challenge, do it in a 190A8.
Difference is you don't have the speed to leave in an FM2 if the fight goes sour. Meet 2 spits at 4k merge in a FM2 then same in late model plane, chances are probably not in the FM2's favor.
And yea I know there are some of yas out there that could kill 2 spits in a goon with one hand tied behind your back but the average player wiyh patience will do better in the late model versus early model.
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Originally posted by sax
Difference is you don't have the speed to leave in an FM2 if the fight goes sour. Meet 2 spits at 4k merge in a FM2 then same in late model plane, chances are probably not in the FM2's favor.
But that's the whole point of the challenge because who just knows, you might get lucky and win.
Ack-Ack
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Dead Brain Flying, why should I? Am I asking for RPS just because there are some planes faster than others? Am I asking to have 90% of the players hidden behind a pair of hispanos and living in a perpetual black out turn with no concept at all about what E amagement is? no.
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mandoble... both the spit one and spit five will outturn the fm2. You of course wouldn't know that. I rarely get on anyones six.. I can't hit anything that is directly in front of me.
whatsa matter wildthing... the arena too tough for you? have to cherry pick? come down and get me.. I am easy to find... heck... I will probly be busy with someone who likes to fight and you can test my SA.
Beetle makes a good point... i don't see where all that many guys are big LA7 students historicly... In fact I find it hard to believe that, in the MA all these pee 51 pilots are on some kind of history thing. Same for the dee 9... especially the dee 9 since only a dozen probly ever got off the runway.
lazs
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Originally posted by WldThing
Thats your best excuse? Dont want to come in higher then you in the CT or the MA...Dont want to have less fuel than you...Dont want to have less ammo than you. You know all those things that make a person lose a fight..So get some balls and take me to the DA and teach me a lesson.
Lazs, he will just shut his motor on and off while stall fighting you, making you wonder "what the heck is he doing?"
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ammo.. the guy is all about unfair advantage... he can't live without it. He might kill me in the arena but he will never fight me. I really don't want to learn the gamey "skilz" required to do duels.. they are pretty useless in the fun arenas anyway.
lazs
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Originally posted by Rude
I am sick of people runnin away...can't believe I'm saying that, but it sucks to fly around beneath everyone trying to be a good target only to get ignored.
Rood...
Think....NEW deodorant!! :D
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Have to disagree with you there Lazs- the whole point of a 'duel' is to minimize 'unfair advantages'. Same plane, same fuel load and ammo load, brings the contest down to two things- merge skill and flying skill. Going to the dueling arena is probably the best way to tell who the better pilot is, in my opinion.
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Originally posted by Rude
I am sick of people runnin away...can't believe I'm saying that, but it sucks to fly around beneath everyone trying to be a good target only to get ignored.
A month or so back at the time when the 13th was doing their FM2/Spit V time fighting in the weeds we had a good turnout fighting them in pizza, havin a great time and Drex stopped in for a few.
Being a good target he just kept killin cherry pickers that dropped by over the fight, one after another after another...
He just looks so..vulnerable
I think it's his "regular boys" haircut myself..
He should get some tattoo's, hit the gym and quit shaving..
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ammo.. the guy is all about unfair advantage... he can't live without it. He might kill me in the arena but he will never fight me. I really don't want to learn the gamey "skilz" required to do duels.. they are pretty useless in the fun arenas anyway.
lazs, I usually agree with a lot of your stuff but your argument against WT is pretty weak.
You call the alt monkeys timid no skill guys - I agree with that. But now co-alt/co-E 1v1s are for the "timid" too? I like furballs as much as the next guy...but the rare times I get a 1v1 I like em even more.
It's the difference between lobbying HT for gameplay changes that promote good fights and lessen cherry picking versus just lobbying to support your own preferred kill method. You can cherry pick both from alt or in a furball with the same result; hitting guys with SA overload that don't see you coming. Both take about the same level of skill, and involve about the same amount of actual "fighting" imo.
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Sad Sad Lazs....I pity your poor excuses...Ill be the better guy here and let you think what you wanna think...Just remeber your nothing more than a trash talking dirtbag that thinks he has any "skills"..
And your misconception of a P-51 pilot being a hi alt dweeb is nothing more than a sterotype statement..I have spent more on the Deck in a P51 then you have in your FM2.
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Originally posted by Hornet
You call the alt monkeys timid no skill guys - I agree with that.
Are you being too hard on the B&Z guys? Remember there are three distinct forms of fighting - T&B, B&Z, and E-fiting. The 190 and P47, for example, are B&Z planes and therefore rely on altitude to create the Boom, and speed to effect the Zoom afterwards. There's no way that a P47 could engage a N1K in a co-alt turn fight. Does that make the N1K pilot more skilled than his Jug counterpart?
The 190 is a plane suited to vertical manoeuvres: Get directly above your prey, dive, use the excellent roll rate in the vertical plane to determine your direction upon exit from the dive - in the direction of the con - and catch up/blow him away. Again, a 190 would not be best suited for co-alt turnfighting, but I don't think that means its pilot is less skilled than a Spit V or N1K pilot. B&Z is a different type of skill from T&B. You can't compare apples and oranges.
Then we have the 109s. They are not B&Z planes! I have died enough deaths to be able to tell you that!!! 109s are e-fiters. (I had a job to understand that till =bbgn= from WB helped me) If you get them going too fast in a dive, you can't get out of it. Here we have a plane that is great for co-alt engagements and has good e-retention - zoominess. I'm still working on my 109 skills - 18k/1d this TOD. I am mediocre, and struggle with SA on a computer interface, so I have always (since 1998) erred towards B&Z/e-fiting. That 18/1 k/d stems from knowing when to attack and when to steer clear. Also B&Z is much more effective when working as a group than individually.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Going to the dueling arena is probably the best way to tell who the better pilot is, in my opinion.
Well I agree in some ways and disagree in others..
I've only been off to the DA on a couple of occasions. The first was the 2 on 2 tourny where our opponents were AKNimmitz and AKCurly. Great fights, had a good time.
The second was a drop in and I flew a couple duels in Spit V's.
I love a good one on one fight, always have. Win some, lose some, but all are a good time. I just don't like appointments, I fly when I fly.
I did find that if I was to spend anytime at all in the DA, the addition of a buttoned enemy paddock view is a necessity. Blackout lead turns with the con centered in that little circle of light that's left is a nice little feature that was used in the Spit duels. Would I use it in the arena ?? Prolly, on a rare occasion.
Is dueling the best way to tell who the better pilot is ??
It's one way, probably the only way unless you fly with someone and watch him work.
There is no arena SA required in the DA. While that being good for what you do there, it eliminates quite a large chunk of what makes a good pilot.
The score system is useless in adding any kind of information that has any worth. Beyond who knows how to score.
Everyone knows who the good sticks are out there.
Kinda silly in the end. You'll know one when you come up against one..
I've come across quite a few in my tenure here. Not many I've fought hang in the DA. Don't know why, maybe it's where I fly.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Dead Brain Flying, why should I? Am I asking for RPS just because there are some planes faster than others? Am I asking to have 90% of the players hidden behind a pair of hispanos and living in a perpetual black out turn with no concept at all about what E amagement is? no.
Just because you have run into limitations in your own flying ability that's no reason to whine and pout about what others are flying and try to limit what they can fly just so MANDOBLE can by happy.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by beet1e
Are you being too hard on the B&Z guys? Remember there are three distinct forms of fighting - T&B, B&Z, and E-fiting.
In point of fact...there are only 2. Angles and Energy. B&Z is an Energy tactic. Personally, I perfer the Rope to B&Z.
As a confirmed alt monkey (everyone knows the best 'nanas are at the top of the tree :D), I am curious to know how anyone thinks that a RPS would influence game play? Seems to me, just because you put everyone in a Spit1 does not mean that everyone will turn and burn.
I have seen at least one reference to cherry picking. The funny thing about cherry picking is to be successful at it...there has to be guys out there flying like cherries :).
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The RPS sucks plain and simple.
Gee the first week is a wonderful example of diversity. Ya got the Spit 1, the 109E, the Zeke...
By the end of the week we'd get the P40..
Times that by the current census of 500 or so in the Main...
Few would fly the zeke so you end up with 400 Spit 1's and Emils in the Main..
Until everyone figures out which plane was "better"
Than it would be 2 to 1 in favor of "that" plane..
Wow, WHAT FUN !!!
Been there, done that..
I'd quit, flat out quit.
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Originally posted by nopoop
Few would fly the zeke so you end up with 400 Spit 1's and Emils in the Main..
I can hear 'em yellin now..."PERK THE EMIL". :D
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You got it NoBaddy !!
It is UGLY.
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The funny thing about cherry picking is to be successful at it...there has to be guys out there flying like cherries .
since when have we ever had a shortage of that? :)
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Dead Brain Flying, why should I?
[/B]
Why should Lazs turnfight in anything other than an FM2? It was you who suggested he try turnfighting in a plane that doesn't excel at it. So I'm suggesting you try to fly your brand of flying with something that isn't well-suited for it. Why so defensive unless you're a bonafide hypocrite? Nice ad hominem BTW.
Am I asking for RPS just because there are some planes faster than others? Am I asking to have 90% of the players hidden behind a pair of hispanos and living in a perpetual black out turn with no concept at all about what E amagement is? no.
Frankly, I don't care one way or another about a RPS. There will always be a fastest plane, a best accelerating/climbing plane, a best turning plane, a most lethal plane no matter what the planeset. This has nothing to do with your suggestion that Lazs fly a plane ill-suited to what he enjoys doing, however. Nor does it have anything to do with your refusal to do the same.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Half the fun of flyin a turner is killin the E's that blow it.
When that happens, the music plaaaays..
Life simple pleasures..
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Originally posted by nopoop
Half the fun of flyin a turner is killin the E's that blow it.
Aye. I feel, at times, that I'm a con man in Aces High. It's all about the BnZers/E-fighters having you right where you want them. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
In point of fact...there are only 2.
I don't agree. B&Z is decidedly different from the 109 type of "E-fiting". Try flying a 109Gx like a 190 or P47, and you're going to come to grief - took me a long time to learn that! T&B is different again (Spit V, N1K etc.) so I maintain that there are three different combat "styles". "Energy" is a more generic reference which effectively combines B&Z and E into the same category. That, I feel, is misleading to say the least.
Other than that, I liked your analysis of cherry picking! In a plane like the 109G10, you've got speed and e-retention, but the elevator is not responsive. Almost all of my kills result from stealth - easier in a gaggle than 1-on-1. But it can follow a zooming plane up, and catch up to it just as it's running out of E at the top of its zoom. I even got a 163 like that.
Nopoop! Yes I know - the WB week 1 was terrible, but an RPS need not start at 1939. It could start at 1942, for example. I was always surprised at how popular early war combat was over at WB. Crappy guns (made worse by iEN's terrible connects), no jabo aircraft (you know how I like dangly bits!) and no viable buffs - if you like that sort of thing. But it would be nice to have an arena in which it's not 1945 every day of the tour. Perhaps AH2 will address this?
As for multiple arenas not working, I tend to agree - although WB has it with WB2.77 and WB3 - 10 people in each arena - lol.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I don't agree. B&Z is decidedly different from the 109 type of "E-fiting". Try flying a 109Gx like a 190 or P47, and you're going to come to grief - took me a long time to learn that! T&B is different again (Spit V, N1K etc.) so I maintain that there are three different combat "styles". "Energy" is a more generic reference which effectively combines B&Z and E into the same category. That, I feel, is misleading to say the least.
Agreed, BnZ is different than a Rope-A-Dope or any other Energy tactic but it still doesn't change that BnZ is just another form of Energy fighting. The chief component is Energy, that's why both styles are considered forms of Energy fighting.
Same goes with TnB fighting, it's just another style among many that makes up Angles fighting, since the object in all the styles is to gain angles on your opponent.
Ack-Ack
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wildthing... first I proved that you were either a liar or just stupid about your statement that you fly FM2's and spit 5's just as much as the fast planes and that you have no trouhble finding a fight... now...
you claim that you spend more time on the deck fighting in your pee 51 than I do in my fm2... again... you are either a liar or delusional.
hornet..dueling is a different skill than the arena... period. I have nothing against 1 v1 in the arena. I do it often. they are short and.. I nearly allways start with the disadvantage of speed and alt. In the arena, even one on one... you still need SA tho. you have to kill fairly quickly or get out fairly quickly before you are overwhelmed. Some of those fights are pretty good. I prefer a little more action is all. I don't think that I am alone.
lazs
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ack ack... B & Z with a plane 50 to 100 mph faster and starting out with a huge alt advantage is indeed "energy" fighting but you you only have to have the energy budget sense of a democrat with tax money to do it.
lazs
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Shaw calls BnZ a form of E-fighting.
I disagree with that opinion.
True straight BnZ wastes huge amounts of E relative to your opponent (it allows him to equalize E-state pretty quickly), and it also fails to really use E as a means of gaining position.
What BnZ does is maintain speed and separation and make it easier to maintain combat formation, all of which are important in actual multi-plane dogfights. I consider BnZ to be its own unique form of combat flying.
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I think Lazs would be more at home in a WW1 game....all turnfighting all the time, and no fast planes bother him. An added bonus for him would be the lack of any serious bombers.
J_A_B ---> likes the big fights, but also appreciates the need for different planes/flying styles to keep the game from being boring
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jab... got no problem with letting everyone fly their plane to their strengths... Got no problem with B & Z even tho, as you point out, it is a very wasteful energy fight that only works when you have a huge advantage in energy.... a very simplistic style requiring the least amount of skill of any type.
Where we may part ways is... I believe that we need a place for the early war planes to fly unmolested by those who would click "huge energy advantage" in the hanger.. To be touchy about skill, or lack thereof, when you fly such a plane in a mixed arena is the sad part of this thread.
If we had say, early, mid and late war areas in the arena.... I would probly spend about half my time in the early and about 40% in the mid and maybe 10% in the late. The fight is more important than the plane to me... mostly I flew the -1a before the fm2... I have a lot more time in it than the fm2 and I did ok with it as and energy fighter.. and... believe it or not... I am aware of energy in the fm2..
a tiny bit more to flying early war planes than simply turning in really tight little circles... at least, most of the time.
lazs
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My Two Cents:
I do hate the p-51 and d9 runners, but I've been saying this since I played AW, running/E Fighting is essentially the same thing as turning in your Spit/Zero, it is using that plane to its best ability.
About RPS:
I think this would be a very good idea...I don't think its really fair to allow so many late war aircraft to be up at the same time, why did they even bother with early war planes? HTC had to know that planes like the Spit and La7 would dominate the arenas with their speed and turning ability. Flying an early war plane against late war hot rods like the La7 is asking to die, sure there are pilots who can kill and survive in them, but thats just the top echelon of all AH Pilots, the average joe will get his bellybutton handed to him trying to fly one. Well theres my opinion, but what do i know ? :confused:
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lol your nothing but a fool...and im a fool for having this discussion with you..its like talking to a child.
When ever u wanna go show your skills call me to the DA until then all your doing is blowing hot air.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Rood...
Think....NEW deodorant!! :D
HEY! Now there's an idea I haven't thought of yet....it's good to have friends:)
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Shaw calls BnZ a form of E-fighting.
I disagree with that opinion.
True straight BnZ wastes huge amounts of E relative to your opponent (it allows him to equalize E-state pretty quickly), and it also fails to really use E as a means of gaining position.
What BnZ does is maintain speed and separation and make it easier to maintain combat formation, all of which are important in actual multi-plane dogfights. I consider BnZ to be its own unique form of combat flying.
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I think Lazs would be more at home in a WW1 game....all turnfighting all the time, and no fast planes bother him. An added bonus for him would be the lack of any serious bombers.
J_A_B ---> likes the big fights, but also appreciates the need for different planes/flying styles to keep the game from being boring
This one kinda jumped out at me.....b and z done correctly will not allow your opponent to equalize anything....it's really more e fighting when done correctly than what you usually see in the ma...you know, the dive in from waaay up then egress waaay bak up and repeat.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
What BnZ does is maintain speed and separation and make it easier to maintain combat formation, all of which are important in actual multi-plane dogfights. I consider BnZ to be its own unique form of combat flying.
I disagree with you J_A_B, you are describing a poor way of BnZ where you are targetting a single enemy and then extending away half a cuadrant. The really effective BnZ is when you keep 5 or 6 enemies terrified, killing all of them, one by one, and not extending, mostly playing in the vertical plane. I saw a lot of time a single P51 comming very fast, shooting, failing and extending, these ones are not a danger and are really easy to evade. But, when I see a BnZ pilot knowing how to deal with several of us, I know we are in problems. It is like a wolf killing sheeps, no one can exit the killing zone. This is the real BnZ.
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J.A.B. quote: "True straight BnZ wastes huge amounts of E relative to your opponent (it allows him to equalize E-state pretty quickly), and it also fails to really use E as a means of gaining position. "
Wow I can't disagree with this enough, unless I have misunderstood. I use E fighting /BnZ to herd multiple opponents beneath me. Anyone that approaches my E state is either shot down or forced into an aggressive, E degrading manuever. Unless someone manages to run away and come back with alt, I(and many E fighters, I'm sure) can hold my E advantage almost indefinitely in my pony*. I imagine it would be even easier in a plane that climbed well.
*I'm not saying E advantage gaurantees victory.. smart pilots will try for those snap shots as I go back up.
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Originally posted by lazs2
ack ack... B & Z with a plane 50 to 100 mph faster and starting out with a huge alt advantage is indeed "energy" fighting but you you only have to have the energy budget sense of a democrat with tax money to do it.
lazs
I know it is, it's just one of the different styles of energy fighting, just like Rope-A-Dope is.
Ack-Ack
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mandoble... let's use the 262 as an exagerated example... certainly you should be able to "terrorize" (i think annoy is the more acurate term but let's not quibble over semantics).... you should be able to "terrorize' 5 100 mph slower planes... how much skill does that take???? about zero.. it is a matter of degree... if you are flying a dee 9 in the arena and "terrorizing" 5 earl/early mid war planes.... big whoop.... you should be.. don't expect me to be impressed tho.
wildthing... what no answer laughing boy? Did you lie about flying early war planes just as much as pee 51's or did you just lie about finding fights in em? Did you lie about flying on the deck in you pee plane just as much as my fm2 or are you just being .... foolish?
lazs
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huh?
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I havent heard anything from you about our duel yet..You chicken out? Scared of getting an bellybutton woopin from a pee 51 dweeb like myself?
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Originally posted by beet1e
I don't agree. B&Z is decidedly different from the 109 type of "E-fiting".
Feel free to disagree :). Besides, it isn't my distinction...it's Bob Shaw's (author of the fighter pilot's Bible :D).
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Originally posted by WldThing
Or just get a faster plane.
Ya so everyone flys P51s and doras
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Huh mia?
This was a quote from a person
Bah...it's all for fun anyway. Leave the game alone. If you don't like the d9,la7,51d,109g10,yak, then learn the SA required to avoid them.[/B]
And i said get a faster plane..Which meant get a faster plane and you wont need to fight them. Read before you post.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
it's Bob Shaw's (author of the fighter pilot's Bible :D).
Which by the way is really nothing more then a re-write of John Boyd's Aerial Attack Study :D
Ack-Ack
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wildthing... come and get me... I am easy to find. I know it scares yu to have to fight in AH but... that's the way the game is played. If you don't learn then what will yu do when they fix it? (and they will... one way or another).. Or... you could go to the CT since I spend some time there too... that is allso a part of AH. I am not interested in the arenas that aren't multiplayer. That's why I pay 15 bucks a month. otherwise I could just do the head to head thing for free.
lazs
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Huh? Why do you keep saying AH? I play online FYI not H2H. And ive killed you before, your nothing special, the only thing special about you though is your mouth.
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Originally posted by lazs2
mandoble... let's use the 262 as an exagerated example... certainly you should be able to "terrorize" (i think annoy is the more acurate term but let's not quibble over semantics).... you should be able to "terrorize' 5 100 mph slower planes... how much skill does that take???? about zero.. it is a matter of degree... if you are flying a dee 9 in the arena and "terrorizing" 5 earl/early mid war planes.... big whoop.... you should be.. don't expect me to be impressed tho.
Do you really think we are here trying to impress you? LOL. Sorry Lazs, you are the one that, after encountered several times in MA (burning P38/P51), are not going to impress me at all with your early plane sheet retorica.
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mandoble... sorry, I didn't understand what you are saying... are you saying that I think you are trying to impress me? I don't think that... I am merely saying that it is not impressive to keep 5 slow planes under you in a plane with a huge advantage.
wildthing... I am sure you have probly killed me (although you do tend to "embelkish")but am equally sure that we have never fought. I can't believe that you are saying that you aren't getting a huge advantage by simply flying a pee 51 in an arena that is mixed and .... are you and mandoble saying that everything is fine as it is? I
It sure does appear that both of you are afraid to lose helpless targets and that self interest is your only motive.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I can't believe that you are saying that you aren't getting a huge advantage by simply flying a pee 51 in an arena that is mixed
LOL your a joke...Where the hell did i say this?
And you dont get any advantages flying an FM2? I dont know how many times im gonna say this and have been a fool to have even had this discussion with you. But grow some balls or put your tail behind the legs and run off like the puss you seem to be.
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lazs2, a 109F 5000 feet over another 109G10 will be clearly faster. A SpitV 5000 feet over a SpitXIV will be clearly faster. A P47D11 5000 feet over a P47D30 will be clearly faster and, of course, a SpitI 5000 feet over a SpitI will be clearly faster. You can't force a CO-E MA even with a RPS.
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ANY plane can beat any other plane. If you can fly your plane in its envelope better than the enemy can fly his in its envelope. If you move out of your envelope your gonna get killed every time. No rotating plane set will ever change that.
If you have doras and pony flying around at 20k you better not try and take a p40 up there cause your gonna get killed. Take that same p40 fly around at 7k and have them high ones come down to you. Make um miss get them turning and guess what you killed um. If you get a vet in same pony or dora and he wont take his plane out of its envelope you are never going to kill him. At the same time he is not gonna get a chance to shoot you unless you make a mistake.
Blame the plane set from now tell the end of time it will never change the fact that YOU yes YOU are to blame for your death.
So the next time you up your 109e or p40 or f4f etc etc and your chasing a dora around guess what you aint gonna kill him not now not tomarrow not with RPS not with THC not with PVC or even TVP.
So take out some TP and wipe your nose and dry your eyes. The big bad DORA dweeb is just your imagination he cant hurt you if you dont let him.
Of coarse this is just my opinion YOU could be wrong. Then again maybe I am right.
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Originally posted by akak
Which by the way is really nothing more then a re-write of John Boyd's Aerial Attack Study :D
Ack-Ack
If I had met John Boyd....I would probably be more impressed. :)
NB
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heheh icemaw AMEN
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
If I had met John Boyd....I would probably be more impressed. :)
NB
I don't think John Boyd gets out all that often anymore on the account he's dead and all. But if you're a member of the military or work for the DoD you can request a copy if his book at the Maxwell AFB library.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by WldThing
Huh mia?
This was a quote from a person
And i said get a faster plane..Which meant get a faster plane and you wont need to fight them. Read before you post.
Yes that makes sence, and damn wldthing your touchy aint ya!!! If everyone leaves there spits,nikis,hurricanes, everyone will be flying fast planes
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Lasz,just curious..How many perk points (Ftr) do you have?
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sirloin... 10,000 or so. why?
Icemaw... and mandoble you miss the point entirely. I have no trouble with any plane. I don't ask for any plane to be perked and... simply because I find late war planes that are 50 mph faster than the average to be annoying and unbalancing does not in any way mean that I find them invincible. Annoying means less fun for everyone except those doing the annoying and... I believe if they had any sense they would realize that they are being somewhat unfair about the whole thing and thus... their 'victories' are tainted.
wildthing... face it... you are a wuss... you pick the most untouchable plane so that you can run away. even then... you don't do all that well in the arena. you are either afraid or unskilled so you need the huge advantage... obviously... you feel threated that I might either expose you for the wuss you are or worse... take away your ability to fight lesser planes with the advantage you musrt have to even do as well as you do..
So... come and get me.. I fly AH and can be found there. I'm sure you can maybe beat me at water polo but that wouldn't prove anything.. even when I beat you in the game we play it won't prove that I am right or that you are wrong. What proves I am right are the stats and common sense... If yiou would stop being so selfish for a moment you would see that. If you can't see the inherant advantage in flying a plane with a 50 mph advantage over the average plane then you are every bit as dumb as you appear to be. geeze... a lieing dummy... why do i bother? I'll give you a hint... the guys trying to get "streaks" don't try it in p40's or even fm2's. fm2... you know the fm2... the plane you claim to fly as much as the pee 51?
lazs
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lazs2, planes that turn on a dime, kills with single hits and never loose E are much more annoying and do not require any kind of skill at all. We have an MA full of them.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
lazs2, planes that turn on a dime, kills with single hits and never loose E are much more annoying and do not require any kind of skill at all. We have an MA full of them.
Wow, I sure wish you'd tell me which planes in AH turn on a dime, kill with single hits, and never lose E. They sound perk worthy, especially that no-E loss thing. Does that mean you can point them straight up like the Me-163 and go to 40k in five minutes?
Mandoble, you yet again undermine any credibility you have by making statements like this. Not only are they inaccurate, but by omission you're suggesting that the plane you fly and the way you fly it are somehow "better" or more skillful. Give it a rest already.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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DMF, is your reaction indicating you are flying one of these planes?
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Here is my contribution to this discussion....oh boy!
My take is that it's not so much the planes being flown, but rather the pilots who fly them....example.....
Last night the 13th was upping in 51's and grabbing 3-5k....we headed directly to an enemy field which was spawning at a 2-1 advantage in numbers....they came in higher and with E. Now we died every hop, but we killed alot of enemy. It was not the traditional way to fly the mustang, but we had a blast and some great fights.
I think what Lazs is saying is that to him and probably to the majority here, including myself, to spend time grabbing alt to find a fight is boring....to grab 5k just to have late model faster rides play pingpong with you is boring as well....when you do have an enviroment where like-minded pilots fight the same fight, it's alot of fun.
To expect the pilots to all behave in the same manner is unrealistic....to ask for an area where plane type dictates the style of fight is not.
Make any sense?
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
DMF, is your reaction indicating you are flying one of these planes?
I'm still trying to figure out which planes, exactly, turn on a dime, kill in one shot, and never lose E. I can't think of a single one in the entire game.
I can see how those would be threats to the kind of planes you fly, since they're bound to the laws of physics and, as such, sometimes lose energy and require more than one 20mm shot to kill something. I understand how it requires enormous skill on your part to fly such a crippled plane in an evironment where other such Newton-ignoring rides exist.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Hey Levi...dontcha know? Every plane I fly, never loses E, turns on a dime and I hit all of my adversaries right on top of their pointy little heads with one single shot....it's obviously the pilot who flies the plane and not the other way around....and mandoble still flies like a girlscout....see how simple all of this really is?
:)
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rude... you said it exactly right and, as someone else pointed out... those who fly the early war planes have a lot better handle on it.
I have flown against the tas (modern tas) when they were in 51's and when they fly early war planes... I would listen to what rude and the 13th guys have to say. They fight hard and they fly their planes skillfully but.... they fight. I couldn't agree more that there is nthing wrong with allowing a place where early war planes can have fun flying against planes with some sort of parity.
That is all I have ever said... In the CT... How popular do you think a ct setup that had one side with planes with a 50mph advantage would be?
I am saying that is is probly time for a change... It is time for some of you to let go of your security blanket and get into a little parity.
as for DMF... he has some "small" skill in early war planes. I believe that what he does would be more on the line of skillfully useing e than some gamey b & Z or engine shut of and on dueling arena crap. I would dearly love to see how well mandoble would do in a tour with the spit 5.
lazs
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mandoble... look at my amount of assists before you label such planes as fm2's or -1a's as on ping killers.
lazs
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Parity... how about an arena w/ a 2k ceiling and only FM2's were allowed in it?? Your whines are lame, Lazs. You can cherry pick in a p40 nearly the same as you can in a p51. Tell you what, I'll fly an FM2 in the DA.. you fly a pony... you can have a 20k alt advantage...ya won't kill me, 1v1. If I'm engaged under you, you could get me... but then you could do that in any plane. You keep saying that you don't care what people fly.. blah blah blah .. but then you want parity,, blah blah blah.. you talk about of both sides of your mouth... effectively reducing your credibility to nil.
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steve... i believe that by your statement your credibility is nill... you say that 1 v 1 I couldn't kill your fm2 in a pony.. you are probly wrong but... say you are right.. so what? that situation is nothing like the MA... unless...
you are also saying that you tangled up in a furball, i couldn't swoop down in a pee 51 and take you out or.... that having 4-8 pee 51's and a few doras and tempests above the crowd isn't annoying and unfair? If you belive that then how would you explain the lack of people trying for "streaks" in untouchable fm2's? Since the fm2 is untouchable and takes so little skill.... then there should be a lot of guys using it to garner streaks I would think but...
if you are unable to grasp what I have said I can't help you but if you simply haven't read it... here is a recap.
parity is what I am after... I also don't want to limit anyones choice... in an "early war area" within the arena you could fly any plane you liked.... you simply could not fly late war monsters with huge inherant advantages in the early war area. simple enough?
there seems to be a pattern here... those who fly late war planes think everything is fine for the early war guys.
lazs
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Lazs. you're never going to get it are you? Let's go w/ your scenario... a mixed up furball. I'm saying I could sit over that in just about any plane and do nearly as well as if I were in a 51, dora, tempest.. whatever. Any plane can cherry pick. I've seen Todd work multiple bogies(several late war) in his spit and do just fine. In fact, it was amusing to watch the BnZ'ers flail way at air. He was playing to his plane's strengths better than the fast planes were playing to theirs.
Whine: you are also saying that you tangled up in a furball, I couldn't swoop down in a pee 51 and take you out or.... that having 4-8 pee 51's and a few doras and tempests above the crowd isn't annoying and unfair?
Answer: Your team can have the same planes overhead.. sounds like you're on the wrong team. Again, a guy can fly over a furball in just about any plane and get kills.. ya don't need a late war plane to do what you are describing. move along.
Quote:Since the fm2 is untouchable and takes so little skill...
When the hell did I say ANYTHING like that? lol Are you going to continue to invent toejam so you have an argument? If so, let me know now so I can ignore you sooner.
Like I said Lazs, make an H2H arena and limit the ceiling and plane set to just planes you think are acceptable. Make sure you post rules so people only fly how you want them to, only then will you be happy.
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Steve, am I reading you right? You can do a 160+ kill streak, as you did in the P51, in a P40? In the MA?
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how do you get any of that from what I said? especially the part where you are telling me what will make me happy..
I looked at my stats and I seem to be doing fine against late war planes with 50 mph speed advantages ... does that there is no need for parity? does leviathn feel that there is no need for parity?
certainly it is obvious that any plane can do well.... "allmost as well as pee 51" is an egageration tho. a gross one. still...
I would like to hear you say it... do you feel that planes with 50 mph speed advantage are a fair way to run an arena? Does that offer something for everyone in your opinion? Do you seriously think that you could garner much of a streak in say.... and fm2 or spit 5? and if you did... what would your stats for that streak look like? Also... what do you have against an early war area (a small one) within the arean? How would that hurt you? please read what rude wrote... do you believe that rude is as "wrong" as I am?
do you think it is lost on the people reading this board that only those who fly the very fastest planes most of the time see no need for parity?
lazs
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Well ya sorta nailed me there Apache. let me clarify ok? :)
I don't think I could do a 160 streak in any plane, lol.
I tried to be clear and say "nearly as well". I think, on a streak basis, you would at least occasionally need that "escapability" a fast plane offers.
I know my replies to Lazs are antogonistic.. but I really do empathize with him.. sometimes I want to mix it up in a furball w/ a spit V or something and the zoomers just won't let it happen. However, I don't consider it annoying or unfair...It's just part of the game. Instead of posting my frustrations on the baord, I climb back in my pony and clear the skies of the offending planes.
To reiterate what I meant though: I think one could zoom thru a furball and get kills in just about any plane. IMO Lazs concerns are more based on flying style than plane type. Lazs does a nice job of saying this is not the case, I merely disagree with him.
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ok steve... fair enough... but... I don't like to fly pee 51's... they bore me witless and I feel a little.... unfair in em. so... by your own admission you find it hard to fight (i would define that as annoying) planes like the spit 5 and the others with pee 51's around... your solution is to grab another pee 51... do you see what you are saying here?
If you tried to streak in a p40.. I don't believe you would do "nearly as well". I also think that you might become.... well.... annoyed.
lazs
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Lazs, you want to hear me say it? OK. I think it is fair to have planes in the same arena with a 50 MPH disparity.
Look Lazs, let's use a fast plane... say the pony.. and your beloved FM2. Now let's put you in your FM2 and me in my pony.
I'm down on the deck in my pony, turning another plane... you come in 3k above me, in your trusty FM2, and engage me.. who is going to win? I think you probably will. What do you think?
OK, you're down on the deck, in your FM2, turning another plane. I come in 3k above you, in my pony, and engage you....who is going to win? I think I probably will. What do you think?
Now, let's go 1v1. Coalt if you like.. or give either one of us an advantage.. I do not care. Your high FM2 won't ever touch my low pony.. never get a shot. Why? because I won't let you..I'll take the fight to your compression speed...and do a low break turn and escape(or any other assorted move)... then depending on what you do, I'll reverse and re-engage. If you don't go to compression speed.. I'll simply take my 50 mph and leave.
My high pony won't be able to get a gun solution on your low FM2.. even if I have all day..why? because you won't let me, unless you make a mistake. But then mistakes are irrespective of plane type. You'll duck that FM2 until I've pissed away all my E, and then I'll be forced to retire, or risk a knife fight with a better turning plane.
It's not that I see no need for parity... I see that there already is parity. The FM2 can do things the fast planes cannot...just like the fast planes can do things the FM2 cannot.
BTW, if you're doing fine against late war planes.. what are you squeaking about?
As for streak flying... i think the faster plane would give you an advantage for the reasons I mentioned in my post to Apache.
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Originally posted by Steve
Well ya sorta nailed me there Apache. let me clarify ok? :)
I don't think I could do a 160 streak in any plane, lol.
I tried to be clear and say "nearly as well". I think, on a streak basis, you would at least occasionally need that "escapability" a fast plane offers.
I know my replies to Lazs are antogonistic.. but I really do empathize with him.. sometimes I want to mix it up in a furball w/ a spit V or something and the zoomers just won't let it happen. However, I don't consider it annoying or unfair...It's just part of the game. Instead of posting my frustrations on the baord, I climb back in my pony and clear the skies of the offending planes.
To reiterate what I meant though: I think one could zoom thru a furball and get kills in just about any plane. IMO Lazs concerns are more based on flying style than plane type. Lazs does a nice job of saying this is not the case, I merely disagree with him.
Ak, ok, now I understand. Had me wondering there for a minute :).
I agree with you Steve in that anyone in any ac can zoom thru and get kills, certainly. Additionally, someone stated that it's the players, not the planes. I agree with that as well, however, a large portion of said players (when I play at least) choose to fly the ac 50+ MPH faster than most of the plane set, stats show that. An early war ac, even with alt, isn't going to catch the auger/pork/blowthru/top3 fastest ac in the game. If they would fight and there are of course exceptions, it wouldn't be quite so bad. Heck, I fly a Yak most of the time and still can't catch most of em, lol. Thus my reason for the lil girly whinin' thing.
An RPS is a bad phrase. I had no problem with it in WB since I didn't get into the bickering much over there about introduction, but, I tend to like lazs' early war area within the arena better.
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Lazs, I agree w/ you on the streak thing.. plain and simple... but I thought we were discussing"normal" MA stuff.
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Originally posted by lazs2
mandoble... look at my amount of assists before you label such planes as fm2's or -1a's as on ping killers.
lazs
Lasz, it is not very difficult to find out I'm refering to the spit plague.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Lasz, it is not very difficult to find out I'm refering to the spit plague.
Oh, see. I wasn't aware you were referring to Spits. After all, none of the Spits I've ever seen literally turn on a dime (when both planes are slow, Zeros outturn any Spit; when both planes are fast, many planes will outturn Spits including but not limited to P-51s, P-38s, P-47s, 190s, Typhoons, and more). Also, no Spit I've seen kills with literally one round of 20mm (about 8 rounds of 20mm concentrated into the stabilizers at convergence is about the minimum required for a kill). And certainly no Spit I've ever seen eternally holds energy (Spit IXs hold energy relatively better than Spit Vs, and both far less so in the vertical than many planes in the game such as the 109G10, P-38, P-51, and more).
Except for the Spit XIV, Spits don't have a sustained speed anywhere near as fast as your ride of choice. Not that you're counting that fact. And I'm not even gonna figure out where a Spit I fits into your above description other than to note that one shot kills with it are pretty much impossible short of a pilot kill.
I await your enlightened response as to how the planes you fly require far greater skill.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by lazs2
wildthing... face it... you are a wuss... you pick the most untouchable plane so that you can run away. even then... you don't do all that well in the arena. you are either afraid or unskilled so you need the huge advantage... obviously... you feel threated that I might either expose you for the wuss you are or worse... take away your ability to fight lesser planes with the advantage you musrt have to even do as well as you do..
LoL ive never been called a Wuss before..But who better to get called a wuss but by the puss himself..Cant wait for you to open your chute...
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Now, let's go 1v1. Coalt if you like.. or give either one of us an advantage.. I do not care. Your high FM2 won't ever touch my low pony.. never get a shot. Why? because I won't let you..I'll take the fight to your compression speed...and do a low break turn and escape(or any other assorted move)... then depending on what you do, I'll reverse and re-engage.
If you are fighting co-alt with an FM2, compression will never be a factor. The alt of the fight will not be within the compression zone of the FM2. It takes quite a bit to compress an FM2. Never have compressed one yet and have made some sreious dives in that machine.
If you don't go to compression speed.. I'll simply take my 50 mph and leave.
Here is the part the Lazs is getting at. The FM2 has worked his balls off getting the pony into a disadvantaged position and when the pony driver finally realizes that ... zoom ... bye bye. Extends ... rinse and repeat. VERY ANNOYING. No final consequence for your mistakes because you can always run when the going gets tough. No satisfaction for the FM2 pilot who just out-flew you.
Get yourself into the same position in a similar/like plane and there is no ... zoom .. bye bye .. you are dead and you deserve to be dead. You were out flown and the reward is your plane in flames. This is gratifying.
My high pony won't be able to get a gun solution on your low FM2.. even if I have all day..why? because you won't let me, unless you make a mistake. But then mistakes are irrespective of plane type. You'll duck that FM2 until I've pissed away all my E, and then I'll be forced to retire, or risk a knife fight with a better turning plane.
You forgot one last option ... run with your 50 mph advantage. This is akin to sunning yourself on the beach and that gawddamn horsefly, that bites like a badger, keeps biting you everytime you just settle in and get comfortable. Eventually the fly will go away or make a mistake and you will kill the bastage, but nevertheless ... ANNOYING !!!
I have listened to many of Lazs rants for the past year and always understood his rants to be him trying to tell me what I should fly, how to fly, and how to play this game. This "rant", I believe is not that. He is not asking HTC to change anything that would effect how you or I want to fly or play this game. What he is asking for is an addition, and frankly, I like the idea and would participate in his "side" area and also play in the "regular" area as I see fit. More for my money !!!
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Lasz, it is not very difficult to find out I'm refering to the spit plague.
Why do you whine so much about a plane that is amongst the easiest to shoot down in the MA? Do you really suck that bad that you have to try to limit what other people fly so you can be some what competitive?
ack-ack
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Quote:Here is the part the Lazs is getting at. The FM2 has worked his balls off getting the pony into a disadvantaged position.
Worked his balls off? Says who? This could easily be a guy that happened upon a low pony that just finished a fight... gimme a break. Quit adding stuff to my scenario just so you have something to argue about.
Quote:If you are fighting co-alt with an FM2, compression will never be a factor. The alt of the fight will not be within the compression zone of the FM2.
How the hell do you know? You're assuming a coalt fight means turnfight.. stop assuming. Additionally, the compression comment was relating to his high FM2. specifically: "Your high FM2 won't ever touch my low pony.. never get a shot." And please explain what you are trying to say in that second sentence.
Quote: You forgot one last option ... run with your 50 mph advantage.
No I didn't: You'll duck that FM2 until I've pissed away all my E, and then I'll be forced to retire.
Did you even read my post before you started arguing?
Quote: Here is the part the Lazs is getting at. The FM2 has worked his balls off getting the pony into a disadvantaged position and when the pony driver finally realizes that ... zoom ... bye bye. Extends ... rinse and repeat. VERY ANNOYING
Should I get annoyed because turnfighters keep turning, causing me to not be able to kill them? They grab while I'm trying to kill someone else, then they keep trying to kill me. Should I get annoyed at that? Puhleeze.
Get yourself into the same position in a similar/like plane and there is no ... zoom .. bye bye .. you are dead and you deserve to be dead. You were out flown and the reward is your plane in flames. This is gratifying.
I know, let's all fly the same planes at the same alt. ::roll eyes::
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Originally posted by akak
Why do you whine so much about a plane that is amongst the easiest to shoot down in the MA?
I know this is too much for you, but 75% of the spits are flown by newbies, does that mean the "plane" itself is an easy target? I know, too much for you ...
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Just for the heck of it, I flew a mission just now in a P40E. No re-arm... 9 kills lol. Maybe the pony just isn't the plane I should be flying. lol
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
I know this is too much for you, but 75% of the spits are flown by newbies, does that mean the "plane" itself is an easy target? I know, too much for you ...
Excuse me if I'm wrong but weren't you whining about the Spitfire being able to turn on a dime, have unlimited energy, can kill in one shot and takes no skill to fly? So with your view on the Spitfire, pilot experience shouldn't be an issue since a newbie would be just as effective in it as a veteran pilot. I know, it's a little to hard for you to understand. That's why I'm starting to think you just love hearing the sound of your own whines.
Ack-Ack
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Wait.. I thought 75% of ponies were newbies.
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someone needs to streak in an early war plane to put this thing to rest.
what would it take? 100+? 125+? There are guys who'll put it up.
its the pilot not the plane...it would be interesting to poll veteran players about what they want when grabbing early war rides. I'd bet its the challenge. I know if I take a spit5 and all dorkas and 51s suddenly have a 2k hard ceiling then I suddenly become the "tard" and the 51 guys become "brave" for flying that high-wing loaded plane on the deck vs spits.
It's all relative BS...who pays 14.95 for parity anyway...its those fights when you come out of the 5v1 alive, or you sucker that guy out of his 20k alt adv that you remember, where u get better.
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Someone tell me an early war plane to fly, I'll do my best 'fly like a popsicle' and see if I can get a streak of 100+ in it.
BTW, no offense Steve- getting a streak of 100+ is pretty tough. I've only done it once in a 190A5, and mine wasn't as long as yours- mine was only 105 kills. I just hated it, I hated flying as cautiously as you need to to have a big 'streak'.
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None taken Urchin...after I hit 125, I started flyin like a scared girl... was truly relieved to get blasted
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Originally posted by Steve
None taken Urchin...after I hit 125, I started flyin like a scared girl... was truly relieved to get blasted
Steve....
This is what Lazs is referring to....late war planes flown in a manner avoiding agressive fights....the disengagment is what is frustrating....anything wrong with that? No, of course not....each player should fly the style they choose in order to have fun.
Lazs's point is this....when you have a group of early war or late war planes fighting agressively, it's fun....it's not fun to fly around and play dodge ball with late war planes. If one decides to engage, loses it's advantage and then runs, that's not fun for the guy in the slower ride. Lazs, along with others, simply desire an area or arena within the arena where more parity exists...it's not a personal afront to you or your plane of choice or your style of fighting.
Now, will Dale change it? Probably not....so in response to that, I find myself in my pony, in the weeds, hoping for just one good fight without interference from other higher and faster planes....I die alot, my score is a non-issue to me.
I used to fly just as you now do....dying sucked, killin enemy and LANDING those kills were my priority....I enjoyed the game and could care less what anyone thought of my methods...piss on em is what I used to say...I actually enjoyed their whinin. Then I realized that my skills were so one dimensional and that when forced to get after it, I lacked the skills necessary to compete in a situation where I didn't have the advantage or couldn't disengage, I no longer was satisfied with my limited skillset.
Each of us here has the right to prefer whatever style floats their boat....for some to criticize others without offering up an alternative solution, is selfish and whiney imho....one thing about Lazs, he has remained consistent in asking for what he believes would be fun...can't really criticize that.
My suggestion for you and others is to walk in his shoes for a tour...it will open your eyes and reveal your weaknesses in short order....I did it and I'm most certainly a much more complete human being having lived like a wild man rather than a sky accountant.:)
And please don't tell me about dying alot....I have members in my sqd and know others in the sim that have the skillset to deal with 3v1 engagements and walk away the victor...it is this that I'm going to continue to pursue until I quit flying these sims or they put me in the dirt....I'm an old hasbeen that still can't accept mediocrity...it's my personal problem, but at least I have a goal eh?:)
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steve.. i thoink you are still missing my point.. all that you say is true and skill of the player is still the largest factor... you do admit tho that having planes with 50 mph advantage in the sam arena with early war planes is not ... parity.
why have parity? why have perk planes? a well flown 51 can easily dodge a 262... the 262 is meat if he is low and tangled up and a 51 has an alt advantage.
look.... quite simply... it's not that I CAN'T kill 51's in a spit 5 or fm2 or -1a it's that I don't like doing it.... It is no fun... get it? it is a lot of work in some cases or luck and stupidity on the part of the 51 in the other cases you mention... neither of those make for goo dearly war plane fights.
when you mix the 51's in with the slow planes you are destroying the ability of the slow planes to fight the kind of fight they are good at and like to do... if they find a place (cv close to field say) to fight an early war fight..... you (figuratively you) come over and B & Z the players and..... well.... annoy them... you ruin their fight ... their arena experiance.... you can ruin their fun easily but they really can't ruin yours...
wildthing... I don't have a key mapped to "bail" so you might have a little trouble shooting my chute. bailing is more for your ilk I believe wussy boy. now why don't you just run.... er "extend" along little boy.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
wildthing... I don't have a key mapped to "bail" so you might have a little trouble shooting my chute. bailing is more for your ilk I believe wussy boy. now why don't you just run.... er "extend" along little boy.
lazs
Why are ya calling me a wussy boy? I believe i did challenge you to a duel which you havent said a word too..So i believe you are misinformed about who the wuss is..But again you would hate to lose to a p51 dweeb such as myself, that would ruin your reputation of having such a big mouth eh?
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WT,you will never see a duel with Lazs...The only duels he goes for is on the BBS...And usually taking on 3 or more posters at once as you can see.
He is the master of the BBS rope a' dope...Don't feel bad.
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Apache,
Personally, I've always thought that "manufacturing zones" of a sort would be a nice implementation. ie: certain zones produced particular plane(s) which would then for the most part limit those to a general area. This could be done by using a number of standards, such as "era", "country type", "plane type", etc..
ie: perhaps a northern quadrant would manufacture British planes, and thus enemies wanting to fly British iron would be forced to implement attack/captures on the manufacturing facility(s) which produced that type.
Just a thought, but this would allow ALL planes in the arena to still be flown, add yet another dimension of "strategy" to the game, and I would think would be VERY simple to implement in the program code.
Limiting countries to various plane sets is another option, but too Draconian for me.
Regards, Oddball
Cactus Air Force
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wildthing... i don't play "dueling arena" or "sea" or "training arena" I play MA or CT... now if you are too wussy to fight me that is fine. If we meet we can try boxing or water polo... but... the only thing that counts for me is multi player AH. That's why I pay to do it. I turn down every dueling arena fight regardless of their ability.
Oh... it's not that I think you are afraid to fight me in the MA or ct... It's that I think you are afraid to fight my kind of fight. I thoink that is what is threatening you here. You are afraid that I am going to make a case to remove your cherry picking of the lesser planes... remove your inherant advantage. You should have brought more than your fear to this discussion. or... just stayed quiet.
lazs
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Originally posted by WldThing
lol your nothing but a fool...and im a fool
Huh? What?
afool
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Good God, people.
Lazs: Wldthing is a capable player in just about any plane or any situation. I've rarely if ever seen him with altitude in a P-51, and I know he can fly an FM-2 with the best of them. He does deserve more credit than you're giving him.
Wldthing: Stop being such a chest-thumping, noodle-measuring twit. Nobody cares how many King of the Hill tournaments or how many dueling ladders you've won if you're going to be an amazinhunk about it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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lol Levi
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Have wanted an RPS for a long time now.