Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hajo on January 13, 2001, 10:27:00 PM
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Gentlemen, I know many of you use different devices to connect to the NeT. I have cable (roadrunner) DSL, and ISDN available to me. The ISDN will be more expensive, but I need some knowledge and expertise on the subject. Which way whould I go to connect? I've heard good and bad about each and could use some good advice before I make a selection. Your help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Hajo
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Hajo, I have Roadrunner.
It was great when very few in the neighborhood were on it. The hookup to the trunk is in my yard.
Now everybody in the neighborhood is on it. There are predictable times when the thing obviously slows way down and stutters. Unfortunately, this lasts from when people come home from work until they go to bed.
In short, it's right when you want to play.
When they finally get a switching station close enough for DSL, I'm gone.
Just my .02. I want my own connect that isn't shared.
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Compared to DSL or Cable ISDN is a total joke so rule that one out for sure.
Cable in general is more stable and will give faster Dl's, people will tell You DSL is better because with Cable you have to "share" your connection, however this isnt really what it seems, if you get lets say a 1.0mbit down 500kbps up set up like I have many will say that if someone in your "grid" has it aswell that you will share that 1.0mbit, that is a falsehood, you are gonna get a true 1.0mbit for sure no matter if people all around have it too, plus with most cable setups you get a static assigned IP that never changes, as you do with DSL aswell. I had dsl when I lived in Corpus, but when I move to Victoria I got Cox@home Cable, I am VERY happy with it, i get excellent gameplay and i usually Download at anywhere from 75k to 110k a second no matter what time of day, 128k is the max you can get with a 1.0 mbit connection.
The only time I have ever had what many people mistake to be the "connection sharing congetsion" is when one of my ISP's backbones went down, the problem was the fact that their backbone was overloaded, not my connection, many people will get a slowdown during prime time and assume that its because they are sharing a connection with their neghborhood, but if you use a simpl tracerout util 99% of time you will see that nay slowdown is usually at your ISP's gateway, so the whoe "shared connection congestion" that people bash cabel about is largly unfounded, we back when cable first came out people DID share connections, but that was phased out as bandwith and equiptment prices fell. If you get or have cable and you are getting congestion i would squeak at your isp, because if You sign up for say 1.0mbit, by law you are to be guarnteed no less that 75% of that speed, the only exception is when there is a down router/backbone, or other ISP related equiptment problem.
I would for sure go with cable, if the cable service is horrid, THEN try DSL but cable is usually faster. forget ISDN
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 01-13-2001).]
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ISDN doesn't compare to the other two.
I have had DSL and have cable currently and both are great. Cable is probably cheaper than DSL and I would recommend it for that reason.
Cable is shared in the following manner. All the cable users in my local area share the bandwidth to my local cable company. If everybody in my section of town decides to get cablemodem, then I am going to experience slowdowns but so far this is not a problem.
DSL shares bandwidth too, just farther upstream. If you have DSL, they actually have a card in your local exchange dedicated to you. So there is nothing between you and your local exchange that you share with. But, you and everybody else using your local exchange shares the bandwidth from it to the next level.
No matter what kind of internet connection you have, at some point you are sharing bandwidth with a lot of other users. In general the main differences between cable and DSL are 1) cable is cheaper 2) DSL shares bandwidth farther upstream and as part of a bigger pool so the service MIGHT be more consistent.
When your DSL service guarantees you 1.5MB, that is only between your house and the switch. If you live in Redmond WA, I can guarantee you that you won't get 1.5MB from anywhere on those days that Microsoft releases a windows update.
Hooligan
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Perfect hooligan, i was just about to post a follow up that said that.
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DSL also tends to take longer than cable to get hooked up. When you look at DSL, make sure you figure out how close you are to your switching office. This may make a major difference in bandwidth available to you.
I'm on @home cable, and frankly, it's unusable for Aces High. In my neighborhood, it seems everybody's got a cable modem, and additional noise issues between the cable drop and their router mean that I ping the router between 7 and 150 ms when there's nobody on and up to 800 ms and beyond during peak traffic. The cable modem will lose the signal for hours at a time; I had to buy a telephone modem to play Aces High. I In all fairness, after three whole days on the phone and 5 truck rolls, @home has agreed not to charge me for this service, but it's been like this for 4 months, and it's getting old.
DSL may give you less bandwidth (The Wobble's right -- when the cable modem can actually connect, I get pretty mean bandwidth), but if you want to play games such as AH, a stable and flat link to the server is far more important than bandwidth, and in this DSL really shines.
if ISDN costs more than either of these, don't even consider it.
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I have DSL and I will say that it's better than my old 33.6 modem but it isn't what I expected. It can still get some bad variance during peak hours. On the over all it is good. I'm still not ready to give it up and go back to dial up. I haven't ever used cable so I can't compare.
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Dinger, how many users have cable should not affect your ping, check and see if the clog occurs at your ISP's gateway if it does and they are not doing anything about such a horrid problem they could be reported to the better business beuro for what i think is called "failur to provide service as advertised " I have COX@home and I get 36 ping to htc server, I am in texas though but 800ms is just sickening. I would raise a MAJOR stink.
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My DSL works great, downloads about same speed from US as from Finland...
Ping is stable and latency bounces within 10% radius.
Just avoid those overloaded DSL providers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
They're literally giving away more than they can offer for. (And their biggie cable gets overflooded)
I hear that @home is one of these..
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DSL is great ! But make sure you get the Right ISP. (avoid world.com familly...)
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I have both @home cable and Sympatico DSL service at my home.
During peak hours cable is painfully slow.
I use DSL to play AH which I have not seen these slowdowns that do affect cable.
DSL here is the same price as cable and it seems to be alot more stable.
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Cable, DSL, ADSL, T1, 14.4 whatever.
Just do *NOT* use RoadRunner for AH.
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I must be lucky.
I have a cable, and my isp grants us 1Mbit connection. That's 120k+/s down and 30 k/s up.
And it's cheap, too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). I pay around $25 a month and have a 4 gig traffic limit; more traffic and I pay more.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht
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1mbit down, .5 up no traffic limit and $40 a month for 2 computer each with their own permanint IP, never had any slowdown even during peak hours EVER. Im a happy wobble.
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Cable user here, about $19 a month (CAN$30). I bought the cable modem, renting it would be CAN$5 - i.e. about US$3 - a month more. Specs say 1.5 Mbps down (192KB/s), 120 Kbps up (15KB/s). 6 GB limit including 1GB upload.
Download speed can get to 240 KB/s, sometimes up to 350, but usually it's around 40-100 during peak hours.
My biggest beef is the upload speed limit; it used to be 320 Kpbs but my ISP has declared war on anyone trying to serve data and content on home connections, so they reduced the upload speed. At 15KB/s upload speed I don't even bother anymore with videoconferencing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
DSL may be "better", but it depends a lot on the provider. Personally I don't trust my local phone/DSL provider one bit. I used to work for an ISP, and I rarely heard good stories about them. (If I lived just 50 miles east of here, where the phone provider is not the same, that'd be different, I'd quickly change to DSL).
Right now my cable modem service is decent: they're planning to deliver IP telephone service in the future, so they've been upgrading their network.
But the day a new DSL provider arrives with better upload speed, even at less download speed I'll probably switch.
My advice is to go with the provider with the best reputation for customer service and product, not the involved technology.
Although I'd stay away from ISDN: it's more reliable than the two others, but requires the installation of a digital phone line which costs more than a regular one (and may even be charged by the minute depending on the provider), so you have to pay two bills, one to the phone company and one to the ISP. The relatively small bandwidth it gives (64 to 128Kbps) isn't worth it. Go for cable modem or DSL instead.
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DrSoya
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
Part of the Northolt Wing (http://www.raf303.org/northolt) (First Polish Fighter Wing)
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Like somebody in this thread stated earlier, somewhere along the way, you are going to share bandwidth..but it's at the local loop where this can be a real problem. That's because it's typically the link with the lowest bandwidth. With cable, obviously if all or most of the bandwidth is used up on your local hub by other users, you're going to have problems (Wobble, better do a little more research on the subject). Also, some cable companies have completely oversold their networks, so the local loop is not the only problem...@Home for example.
For several months I had both cable and DSL. At peak performance, the cable had much faster download speeds then DSL, I could get up to 2MB/s, but these times were rare, especially at night and weekends when more users were on my local hub. With DSL, although the speed is lower, I get 800 kbps, it's rock solid, constant. So on average, the DSL was faster.
However, remember every ISP is different. In your area it may be a completely differnet story.
bowser
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Well I switched from a dedicated data line (at 25$ US a month) and a pair of USRobotics 56k modems to DSL service through USWest (now Qwest).
Because DSL can be used over the same phone line that you use for voice I was able to drop a phone line. Hence the switch to broadband cost me the modem & 5$ a month.
I'm getting 256k up & 640k down and it is VERY stable most of the time. Plus it was a snap to setup so that all three of our puters shared one connection. Even when my wife is downloading MP3's from napster & my daughter is surfing & talking to friends via icq I still experience no problems connecting to HTC.
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Bowser I do this for a living I sell the equiptment to companies and consult them on its application, I know what i am saying.
DSL provided by an ISP is usually risky because the generally are more stingy and want to get more range with the equptment they buy, however DSL from a phone company (swbell here) is usually much more stable because they do not depend on it as a moneymaker and can splurge more and not be so hellbent of jamming as many people on as little equiptment as possible, basically what it boils down to is 3 things.
1. how greedy the ISP is going to be with upgrading and setting user limits.
2. how well the city has set up and maintained the proper lines and equiptment.
3. how quickly the ISP will acknowledge problems and bandwith shortages and move to correct them.
the city maintained lines and such you just have to have luck but the other 2 you can watch and see which way to go.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 01-14-2001).]
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DSL is a gamers connect IMO, been on cable for 4 years, and suffered alot of instabilities over the years. (This in several locations across Canada)
For strictly gaming, i'd recommend DSL, with cable and ISDN close second. ISDN is expensive and offers lower download speed, however it does offer good stability.
Cable offers the highest download speeds, which doesn't mean much ingame.
AKskurj
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I've had both.
DSL is faster but it is a REAL PAIN IN THE BUTT. It is annoying to install, if you have ever have any problems with windows itself you basically have to reinstall the damn DSL from scratch or it wont work.
Connection in DSL suffers from a LOT of problems from the company. Almost all the time they expand the dsl system you get disconnected for a day or two. You also have to be close to the node to get a decent connect.
Cable on the other hand is very reliable, very easy to install and maintain, cheaper, almost as fast as the DSL (heck, downloading 64 megs in less than 4 minutes is CERTAINLY good enough for me AND my gaming). That you share the bandwith is true, but you have to see what neighborhood you live in. If you are in an apartment complex and every one of your neighbors is a pc geek like you in need of cable modem you pretty much screwed at high-time (when people come back from work).
In all, I prefer the CABLE over the DSL a thousand times.
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My Cablemodem is typicaLLY better then the local DSL offerings.
Ive been able to download at 2.1 mbps (fastest ive ever gotten) and upload at 1.2mbps thats both faster then dsl. however my Download and uploads speeds fluctiate like and with the weither. ive gone as low as 500kbps and as high as 2.1mbps. my lag is low ussually sub 10ms with a less then 2ms veriance. My connection is always on and I don't to turn my Nic into a dial up (PPPOE). I've worked for @home and I use roadrunner. Ive also worked on networks (Setting them up for WAN) that had DSL. IT's hit and miss with both with no garantese. ive seen people get good solid awsome connects with dsl and ive seen people get them with cable. I will say one thing for sure avoid any dsl or cable modem that turns you're NIC into a dail up (PPPOE) they can time you out or bump you off and reshuffle you're IP.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
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Yes avoid PPPOE like the PLAUGE
If you have that you'd do better on a 56k as it will tend to disconnect you every 10 minutes.
Actually, the same general rule applies to SWBell. They operate with complete comtempt for the customer and even if you get someone nice on the line they can't help you and you need to talk to six other people at which point someone says they will call you back and they never do.
If you must get DSL pay the extra for the enhanced that has a static IP and no PPPOE.
You also will need to get cable first to tide you over for the six months it takes them to install the DSL.
[This message has been edited by RebootSequence (edited 01-14-2001).]
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Well I play on a cable connect and used to have alot of problems until my cable company upgraded their backbone from coax to fiber. When the backbone was all analog, my pings would vary from 100ms to 1024ms with a packetloss sometimes as high as 40%.
Once they upgraded to a fiber backbone, however, my pings to HTC stabilized around 80ms with 0% packetloss. As I understand it, RoadRunner PLANS (does not mean they will) to upgrade all their subnets with fiber but this is a long and costly process.
As should be obvious by now, there is no clear cut decision to use cable over DSL or vice versa. Even within providers, you will find drastic variances in performance dependent upon location. The best way to make this decision for yourself is to talk to people in your area who have used those technolgies and to base your decision on their input.
-Ding
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anyone have any info on this???
http://www.starband.com/ (http://www.starband.com/)
snipets
"StarBand uses a single satellite dish antenna for receiving AND for sending information - no telephone connection is needed."
"StarBand service features 'always-on' Internet access, with no wait to reconnect every time you want to surf the Web or check e-mail."
StarBand consumers can expect download speeds up to 500 kbps and upload speeds up to 150 kbps. And, your speed can burst even higher depending on when you are online."
In northern NM they pick up our internet packets and deliver them to Phoenix AZ by pony express then someone has to type the data into the backbone there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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OhNooo
smile awhile
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Stay away from satellite!!
LOS systems (microwave much like cellular) may work ok, but actual satellite service carries HIGH LATENCY with it.
The signal has to travel a long way, that takes time, which results in High ping. You may get great download speed and good surfing, but when u hit that mouse button the signal goes up to the satellite maybe thousands of miles away, then back down to earth, to the server, then back up to the satellite, and back down to you. I'd imagine pings of 1000ms won't be uncommon.
AKskurj
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yep, satellites are great for Dl'ing but you might aswell be using a dialup 9600 for games.
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Thanks Gents!
Looks likes the consensus is basically what works best in the area in which one lives. I'll give DSL and Cable a shot. I will totally disregard an ISDN line.
Thanks! <<S>>
Cya up
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Well, as an ISP, I will offer the following.
The question about what works best for the last mile (your local connect) of the Internet connection is a question that has no absolute answer.
Many variables are involved. Understanding those variables will go a long way to helping you make the correct decision as to what is best for you.
When trying to decide between Cable or DSl for your service, ask the floowing questions:
1) Is the IP address a 10.x.x.x address? If yes, then avoid the ISP, if you can. Why? 10.x.x.x addresses are not routable over the Internet, which simply means the ISP is using a proxy server to handle all your Internet requests. Proxy servers are computers that do slow down as more users attach to the Internet.
2) Does the ISP require you to use PPPOE (PPP over Ethernet)? If yes, then run don't walk away from that ISP. There are many problems with using this software for Internet connections.
3) Does the ISP use DHCP for assigning IP addresses? If so, what is the lease time of the IP Address? When the lease time expires, your connection will be reset and a new IP address is assigned. This is fine for browsing the Internet as the reassignment can take aonly a few seconds, at most, but will crash any real-time program immediately.
4) Does the ISP use NAT (Network Address Translation)? This may be used in conjuction with a 10.x.x.x address. Avoid this as UDP packet problems will occur with NAT.
5) In the case of Cable: How many homes are on my node? In the case of DSL: How many users per T1 amount of traffic are on my connection? This will give you an idea of the potential bandwidth sharing issue you could have. For cable modem, they should not have more than 50 homes per node. This will give the best overall performance and reduce congestion related problems.
For DSL/T1, the ISP should not be going over 30 clients for the same reasons.
6) Does the ISP cap the bandwidth available to you? If so, what are the caps (download and upload)? This is somewhat subjective. If you do not feel the caps will impair your ability to accomplish what you want to accomplish over the Internet, then go for it.
Both types of connections have pluses and minuses and what works best for you may not work for others.
All WEB/FTP traffic for Cable users are served via caching servers on the local network for the cable ISP. This allows very fast downloads at the expense of serving stale content from time to time. This operates completely transparent to the user and cannot be avoided.
More and more DSL ISP's are using caching servers as well. So this issue is becoming moot.
ISP's are discovering that clients do not care if the content is stale, as long as it is fast.
As far as reliabilty goes, the telphone network will always be potentially more reliable than the cable network. Why? The cable network is made up on one cable carrying traffic from your ISP to you. A physical cut anywhere in that cable will bring down the entire node.
The telephone network has many different paths to your home and can switch those paths when upgrades or problems at a switch require the need to re-route. The telephone network has many redundant cable paths in the ground which facilitate this.
There is not clear answer as to which is best. The determining factors are; the ISP, the cable company or the telephone company.
A little research goes a long way.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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Skuzzy thanks! LOL I printed out your response so I could remember what questions to ask. I do hope however the person to which I speak can answer them. Usually when dealing with phone or cable cos' one talks with a sales rep, and techs are hard to corner most times <G>
Hajo
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Guess I'm spoiled. Sure cable (Roadrunner) slows down some (very little)when pipe fills up but nothing like the rest of the internet does.
With cable you are on a huge fancy network until it dumps you into the internet. Pinging inside this network should give you great speeds 99% of the time. What happens from there on out has nothing to do with your cable modem, it's everybody and there brother squeezing along and into the same sites you are trying to pull up. I'm on one of the busiest hubs Time Warner Hillsborough has going, still get great speeds both for d/l ing and AH.
Toad
Have you documented your problem and approached the cable company with it? If the problem is within your node/hub and not internet traffic, cable has to add another to lower the ratio. If they give you a hard time, call your city commissioners. Cable co GM's jump when they get calls from the city officials.
good luck
Eagler
[This message has been edited by Eagler (edited 01-15-2001).]
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regarding PPPoE: it's not that bad, just don't install anything on your machine, buy a small LinkSys router that does the PPPoE internally and exposes standard Ethernet and DHCP to you. Works like a charm, you'll never even notice.
On the other hand: had @home in rural new jersey (cable) and boy, it was GREAT! Have DSL from PacBell now and when it works, is almost comparable. But stuff's down a LOT.
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Originally posted by Nash:
Cable, DSL, ADSL, T1, 14.4 whatever.
Just do *NOT* use RoadRunner for AH.
i have roadrunner and i never go over 65 ping to HT unless a router goes out somewhere.
whels
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ISDN is not as fast as Cable or DSL but for playing online games it is more than adequate. However the hardware and service are expensive. But if you have a good ISP you will get a smooth consistent connection.
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I've been using a 512k/512k DSL line for some time now. Skuzzy's post pretty much sums up all of the considerations.
Another thing to consider is terms of use agreements. Some cable/dsl providers don't allow dedicated servers. Fortunately, I have no such agreement so my web server sits at my computer desk. It was a major factor in my decision.
Cable Vs DSL is hotly debated wich-is-better debate. The truth is, you should go with whatever has the best support and is the best price in your neighborhood.
Some questions to ask if you are looking into DSL:[list=1]- Do they have static ip addy's. You want a static adress if at all possible. Se Skuzzy's post above for other IP qestions.
- Does the price include ISP service. DSL is provided several different ways. Sometimes it includes ISP service and other times you have to find your own ISP. The ISP you find must have an agreement with the company providing the DSL connection. This was a big issue in my area.
- What are the available up/download options. If you want to host games, you will want the greatest upload capability possible. You'd be amazed at how many restrict uploads to 128k.[/list=a]
I don't know much about Cable, so I can't really help you there. I do know that I have not regretted getting DSL for one single day of the two years I've had it.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 01-15-2001).]
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About the static IP question/servers: Theres a very cool Dynamic naming service you can use called tzo.com . Check it out, its cheap, works great, and supports a wide variety of platforms and connections.
Heres a good story (laugh) for you ISP guys. I can't get DSL or Cable or ISDN, so I use a mixture of dialup and satellite, and have 2 phone lines (1 dedicated to my PC).
About a month ago I shifted house. Moved in, everythings being going great til today. Then all of a sudden my PC disappears off the net. I get my wife to turn the modem speaker up and hear a disconnected tone on the line.
So I ring my telco. Guess what... their records show that they were unable to get access to the premises for a month to connect the 2nd line (yes the one that had been working fine for a month) so they cancelled the job and disconnected the line today.
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Damn! I guess I'm still back in the dark ages with a 56k modem.
On the other hand, I have AT&T as an ISP and the connects are fantastic! I get great pings, virtually no spiking unless the net itself is storming, and the bandwidth is plenty for both AH and RW. It works like a champ.
Maybe my connects are getting better as all you guys clog the cable, DSL, and ISDN lines. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
But forget the satellite for gaming. The data transfer speeds themselves are great. The problem comes in the latency of requests. You send data and it has to boune however many miles up in space to the satellite, get cued up and then sent back down to its controller, then over the net. All the lag of the net and then some. Since data is going both directions, you get screwed twice. However, once the data gets flowing, sure the speeds are fine. Great for downloads. Terrible for low-latency gaming.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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"Is the IP address a 10.x.x.x address? If yes, then avoid the ISP, if you can. Why? 10.x.x.x addresses are not routable over the Internet, which simply means the ISP is using a proxy server to handle all your Internet requests. Proxy servers are computers that do slow down as more users attach to the Internet"
My cable modem has that. What can I do? My isp options are very limited (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)