Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on March 13, 2003, 07:57:41 AM
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My case this tour:
31 La7 kills
26 spit kills
26 n1k2 kills
Next is P51 with 12 and then A6M5 with 8, rest well below that.
It is becoming franckly monotone to take off just to fight basically against 3 models out of about 50 available.
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Now that you can't land at enemy bases the p51 and D9 stats may go up... even the nik may be too slow for the new arenas. Certainly, you will only see it and the spit as defensive planes very close to their own bases.
lazs
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lazs, you should know well that 90% of Spit/N1K2/La7 pilots never think on RTB, and those few that do, have a more than respectable range with a spit 100% fuel + DT and a tremendous range in N1K2 100% fuel loaded. New patch modifications are not going to change the actual situation.
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mandoble... I disagree... on these huge maps, pizza and especially infinity with it's endless flights between fields.... I see hardly any enemy spits at all at friendly bases... if I do see one or two it is instantly latched onto by at leat half a dozen frienlies who are starved for a kill... any kill... and... who know that not only will the spit fight but.... even if he runs he has zero chance of getting away..
Not being able to land at an enemy base will make it even worse. Somebody gave some bad (and selfish) council on that "fix".
lazs
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oed... well... that's true so far as it goes but... for diversity there has to be opportunity for diversity. If everone has the same choices but only a few are viable then.... most... a vast majority... will choose the best possible weapon. If there is parity then, while some will continue to fly only one or two planes... the vast majority will choose fairly evenly from a lot of viable choices.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I see hardly any enemy spits at all at friendly bases...
You should know well also that the average spit pilot (90% of them) enganges inmediately as soon as he locates an enemy (probably while aproaching your base or even near his base), even when that enemy is already chased by a dozen of spits and Las. This "tactic" is just what generates the big furballs in the middle of nothing.
If you want to set up a CAP over an enemy base to prevent future attacks on yours, you need some dossis of patience to go there, stay on station and select and attack the enemies that really may cause havoc in your base, not just diving on the first red icon you encounter.
If you want to attack an enemy base, more than problably, you are going to pick up a heavy jabo, not a spit.
These are the main reasons to find few spits over friendly bases, not just a matter of fuel/range.
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Ok i don't mean to be picky (ok maybe a bit;) ) but i couldn't resist double checking your stats mandoble.:D
kills of-
La-7 31
N1K2 26
Spitfire Mk IX 16 (it's 16 not 26)
P-51D 12
Spitfire V 9
Could it be that your stats are skewed because you try and kill the planes you don't like. You whine about the la7, n1k, spit being all you ever see, however the p51D has the highest amount of kills and deaths so far this tour. For being the most used plane you have very few kills of it compared to others.
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Originally posted by lazs2
oed... well... that's true so far as it goes but... for diversity there has to be opportunity for diversity. If everone has the same choices but only a few are viable then.... most... a vast majority... will choose the best possible weapon. If there is parity then, while some will continue to fly only one or two planes... the vast majority will choose fairly evenly from a lot of viable choices.
lazs
Somebody please interpret this for me.:confused:
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
My case this tour:
31 La7 kills
26 spit kills
26 n1k2 kills
Next is P51 with 12 and then A6M5 with 8, rest well below that.
It is becoming franckly monotone to take off just to fight basically against 3 models out of about 50 available.
Don't you think it's time you get a new whine? You're either squeaking about what planes people like to fly or squeaking that the Spitfire should be perked.
Ack-Ack
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Well it looks exploiters landing at enemy field will be in the same boat ive playing since the start of the game...I land my kills even if it means ruining my KOT...
And as stated in earlier posts that were even graced by HT about KOT statistic...
If you fly anything other than late war your penalized in KOT.... Hence promoting the very thing your guys are talking about.. the same mundane planes over and over.
KOT is worthless... fly a p40b and youll see what mean... to climb 4k it takes 2 mins 2 mins in a 109 la7 or other late war monster is 7-8k ..... thats freaking huge advantage as it should be but dont double penalize the early war planes with KOT and a crummy plane thats a natrual 20 double dammage.
Not trying to hijack but I think KOT is just a poor statistic... It should be recorded but not weighted as it is now.. becuase it promotes dweebyness..
2 cents
DoctorYO
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Originally posted by slimm50
Somebody please interpret this for me.:confused:
you all suck because you don't fly the planes i want you to.
:D
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MANDOBLE,
You shouln't run from so many P-51s. Given the vast quatity of them and how rarely you kill them I can draw no other conclussion.
Being a bit presumptious aren't I? Guess who else is.
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Originally posted by Shane
you all suck because you don't fly the planes i want you to.
:D
Thats the exact opposite of what he said.
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Thrila, I indicated 26 spits, not the mark (IX + V + Seafire). In any case, this is my experience in MA, perhaps you are more lucky and have found much more diversification than me in the last 5 tours.
And, in the case of a clear overusage of 190D9, I would be the first to jump into a different ride and I would be happy having it perked.
At the present tour, all 190s have been kilt 9018 (3872 for D9) times for 28157 (13406 for IX) of Spits. I cant see how actual D9 usage may be a problem in MA aircraft diversification.
About the P51, it is really used in a multipurpose role (attack/fighter), so I'm not surprised by its number of kills or deaths, but that is not the case of spits/N1k2/La7 with very limited jabo capabilities.
Karnak, how rarely I kill P51s? OMG, it is just the 4 in the list.
As an example of a completed tour, tour 35 D9 vs XXX.
D9 vs P51s(D+B) 79/1
D9 vs Spits(all models) 185/6
D9 vs La7 88/3
D9 vs N1K2 41/6
of a total of 798 kills in D9, that is 50% of kills where these four planes out of 50 available.
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Maybe it's because I'm new.
I just play the freaking game. I fly what's fun, or what's useful for the job I'm doing. Generally, I'm in the P51, LA5, LA7, P38, Spit9, F4U, or a GV. I don't know how the score works, except for perks, and I don't care. It's nice when my ranking is ok, but it's strictly accident, not do to conniving.
Perhaps other people would enjoy the game more if they concentrated more on having fun, less on having the top score.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Maybe it's because I'm new.
I just play the freaking game. I fly what's fun, or what's useful for the job I'm doing. Generally, I'm in the P51, LA5, LA7, P38, Spit9, F4U, or a GV. I don't know how the score works, except for perks, and I don't care. It's nice when my ranking is ok, but it's strictly accident, not do to conniving.
Perhaps other people would enjoy the game more if they concentrated more on having fun, less on having the top score.
Why do you assume these debates are about score? You think that those of us who advocate more variety or who whine about fast planes or the monotony of the same few have problems killing them? Go take a look at stats if you like. Score isn't the argument at all.
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Mandoble,
I find that if I cruise around at 20K or so the plane set diversifies just a little. Of course very often if you engage a high bandit they dive for their friends instead of fighting, I suppose because his intention was to cherry pick or B&Z. While this too can be frustrating, the kills you do get are satisfying since you know the poor bastard had to invest a good bit of time to get to alt and you ruined his(or her)day. Grabbing a C-hog and HOing the SOBs is great fun too:D
After watching my 15 year old son in the game (on my account), I think that he's alot like the majority of the people in AH. He wants instant gratification so he grabs a Nik or spitV goes to the base nearest the fight and engages no matter the odds. When he gets shot down, it only takes a few minutes to get back into the fray. With his mindset, only a few planes are worth him using, the rest just aren't as competitive for how he is using them.
I don't see anything changng anytime soon in the MA. I just try to adapt as best I can. I do "feel your pain" though...
Magoo
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"MANDOBLE
lazs, you should know well that 90% of Spit/N1K2/La7 pilots never think on RTB, and those few that do, have a more than respectable range with a spit 100% fuel + DT and a tremendous range in N1K2 100% fuel loaded. New patch modifications are not going to change the actual situation.
lazs2
Mandoble... I disagree... on these huge maps, pizza and especially infinity with it's endless flights between fields.... I see hardly any enemy spits at all at friendly bases... if I do see one or two it is instantly latched onto by at leat half a dozen frienlies who are starved for a kill... any kill... and... who know that not only will the spit fight but.... even if he runs he has zero chance of getting away..
Not being able to land at an enemy base will make it even worse. Somebody gave some bad (and selfish) council on that "fix".
lazs"
I agree with Mandoble. He's right about the suiciders.. The new patch is only gonna hurt the score potatos who hold out vulching till their tanks are dry.
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Who cares what people fly? It's their $15, they can fly what they want. Want a challenge?, hit the CT. Planes are limited there. I hate to put it bluntly, but if I'm paying $15 dollars a month and someone calls me a dweeb for flying an La7, he can kiss my arse.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Who cares what people fly? It's their $15, they can fly what they want.
I don't think ANYONE cares what other people fly. They care about what planes they're stuck dealing with over, and over, and over.
Anyways, I agree with you, since we pay our $15 a month, the 262 should be unperked.
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Originally posted by Innominate
Anyways, I agree with you, since we pay our $15 a month, the 262 should be unperked.
Comparing an La7 to a 262? Apples to oranges inno.
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Somebody please interpret this for me.
I will interpret, sorta: picking a plane in ah is like picking a car in real life. There are alot of choices, but most people pick the car that they like and can afford (the rest squeak about their cars...or have rich daddies). What he is saying is you should pick a car that isn't too popular and lacks the options you desire. Hmm, come to think of it, perhaps diversity in this case means we need to establish the Department of Homeland Aircraft Selection...errr, Assignment. HT err dale can rev the game so that we can't take up a plane until we have taken all other up at least once. I hope I have clarified things.
see you up (i'll be in a spit or 51)
bockk
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MANDOBLE, stop flying one of the easiest planes in the game, and maybe, just MAYBE, your whine about "diversity" would carry some weight. When I see you up in a P-40, P-38, or A8 instead of a dora... then maybe I'll side with you.
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ok, i must admit: i did some score checking also. Here are some stats for a major player in this thread: 162 fighter kills in 28 sorties --- a very nice stat, hats off :) . 162 kills in a d9 --- flunks the diversity test. Oh well, so much for diversity.
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Comparing an La7 to a 262? Apples to oranges inno.
They're oranges to anyone who's in a plane that produces sufficient speed to catch them. Otherwise they taste like apples.
Anyhow.. my perk-induced plan for MA diversity, which I've posted before:
In my opinion...
LA-7: 4 points
TYPHOON: 3 points
YAK9-U: 3 points
P-51D: 3 points
190D-9: 3 points
F4U-1D: 3 points
109G-10: 3 points
P-38L: 3 points
N1K2-J: 3 points
P-47D-30: 3 points
Perking these 10 planes would shift the MA into a mid/late 1943 environment.
The F4U-1, P-51B, La-5FN, and the P-47D11 will be the four fastest fighters at low alts at military power, and F4U-1, P-51B, LA-5, Fw190A-8 would be the four fastest on WEP.
There's a much bigger chance to see people using various fighters, which before, have been ignored by a lot of average pilots for the reason that they weren't fast or maneuverable enough against 1944~'45 planes.
The survivability of the P-47s will be vastly enhanced, and since some of the 'super ground attackers' with 2k payload + rockets, have been perked, it would truly live up to its name as a great and fast ground attacking fighter-bomber.
The ol' N1K2 fans will probably just move on to Spit9s anyway. We'll be seeing a bit less N1K2s, but more Spits.. but no special harm done here.
The P-51D fans would shift to the P-51B.. which has a little less ammo load, and weaker jabo capabilities. We'll definately see less whinings about 'cowardly runstangs' who come in at 20k to do a single bomb drop and run straight home after.
The F4U-1 corsair will also start to shine out, but it will of course, be limited in jabo capabilities, compared to the C-hog and the D-hog.
La-7 fans can comfortably ride the La-5FN, since it shares simular characteristics with the La-7, and is still among the fastest non-perked planes .. but the speed difference between other fighters will be a bit less than the La-7: meaning, it'd require some more careful flying, and also, people won't be whining about La-5FNs much.
Also, some planes which only a few people rode just for kicks, might come into real recognition: such as the Bf109G-2, Bf109G-6, Fw190A-5, Fw190A-8, C.205.. which will be vastly enhanced in survivability and versatility. More variety IMO, can be expected.
Also, some jabo planes which people neglected before, could become very appealing, since the planes that were very fast, and also carried huge bomb loads will be perked. Planes like the Mosquito and the Bf110G-2, Fw190F-8 might be able to get more usage as preferred jabo ride of choice. When the 10 planes are perked, the Mossie and the 110, F-8 can all be considered fast planes...
The 3~4 point perk price would also be adequate. It'd be a super cheap price for the 'experten' who amassed massive perks, and won't bother them from riding their favored rides... and also, it is not a very heavy burden for average/low-skilled pilots, too. Work a bit with other fighters, and they'll achieve 3~10 points easily in a single day. They'll get a chance to ride better planes soon.. and if they are shot down, it's not like losing 200 perks. Just barely enough price to control the numbers in the MA, IMO.
If those 10 fighters are perked, the planes people will use, will be at 310~336mph range at deck speeds, where many many previously neglected planes can be used. The one single problem is the P-38L, which doesn't have an earlier variant..
With my suggested perk setup, I think we can see more variety, less whining, and satisfy the people who want to fly fast monster planes(perks very low for the experts), people who want to fly planes they want without too much of a burden(low perks - not really too much of a burden), and also the people who want some plane numbers regulated(3 perks is not too high, but still needs some work for the vast majority of average/low-skilled players who take up 80% of AH). Also, my suggestion will give some great expert jabo planes(Mossie, 110G-2, Fw190F-8) their role in the MA.. where currently they have no place at all, since almost every USAAF/USN plane can carry loads of rockets+2k load.
ps) also, the survivability of bombers will go up a lot more!
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Comparing an La7 to a 262? Apples to oranges inno.
It's not apples to oranges. They're both planes. One obviously should be perked, the other can be argued for either way. But your argument can be applied equally to both. If i pay my $15 a month, why shouldn't I be able to fly the 262?
Simple, because it DOES matter what you fly. Free 262's would unbalance the game, and turn it into the monotony of 262 vs 262 fights. Much the same as it is now with only a couple of types of planes seeing any real use.
IMO, The potential of the perk system is grossly underused, and properly implemented could go a long way towards improving the diversity of the planes used int he MA.
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G10's don't need to be perked... without a good pilot behind the stick, the 109F is probably a better fighter. Hell, I've been flying P-38's all tour and I'm 17-1 against them, and the G10 is twice the plane..
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Why do you care Mandoble? All you do is dive straight down on those who don't see you. I can understand how that would get old. It takes more patience than talent but why would you care what 'type' of plane you bounce?
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Some of you all are being a little harsh on Mandoble I think.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Some of you all are being a little harsh on Mandoble I think.
If he didn't whine about the same thing over and over again, I think he'd take less crap from a lot of people.
ack-ack
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MANDOBLE,
You missed my point.
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Urch, if he wasn't a hypocrite, I'd side with him :p
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I think a person complaining about the types of planes he is killing is pretty damn funny.
MiniD
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I like the 3-4 perk idea
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I don't care about score and.... I don't fly any of the planes that people want perked and..... I don't have any trouble killing any of the planes on the kweassa "let's make the unworkable perk idea even more silly" plan...
And... I don't care what people fly they should be able to fly anything inthe arena in AH but...
early war planes shouldn't have their fun ruined by late war ones. Late war planes shouldn't be able to cherry pick and early war planes shouldn't have to fly late war distances to the fight.
so.. we need an small area with filelds a little less than a sector apart, carved out of the hidious pizza and infiniy late war centric abortions that only allows early war planes to take off.
everyone can then just fly whatever they like against like minded pilots and they can do it all in the same arena and switch seemlessley to whatever type of fight they want from the tower.
lazs
l
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Thrila, I indicated 26 spits, not the mark (IX + V + Seafire).
Ah now i understand Mandoble, you don't wanna perk the spit IX, you wanna perk ALL spits.:rolleyes:
If you're gonna add up all version of a plane for spitfire you're gonna have to do it to other planes too. If you add up the total kills for the 190 this tour so far 7502 (d9) + 3486 (a8) + 3358 (a5) + 377 (f8) = 14723. The n1k only has 11217 kills, looks like the 190 getting overused now- it even has more kills than the la7 13889 kills. If you're gonna complain about the la7 and n1k being overused maybe you should look at the 190 (all these stats are from inno's stats page).
My point is you can't lob all the spits different mk's together. You're gonna have to accept that the different mk's of spits perform differently and should be treated as individual planes.
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My case this tour:
31 La7 kills
26 spit kills
26 n1k2 kills
Next is P51 with 12 and then A6M5 with 8, rest well below that
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funny, all those kill in a d9 -- the way i read mandoble's post is he wants more diversity in everyone else, otherwise I would expect to see his kills spread out among many other planes, but all d9 kills? The whole diversity point of this thread in baseless.
out
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Thrila, number kills are not representative of overusage, deaths are. If not enough clear, you can take off and kill 0 or more planes, but for a single sortie you can dead only once. Now make your maths using deaths instead of kills for the previous 4 tours. And about spit performance, IX and V perform the same for me, a bit faster IX and a bit better turner the V, but basically are the same with different colours.
BNM, I dont know even who you are or what you fly or how you fly, it is curious that you know how I get the kills better than me. If I bounced and killed you some time, better improve your SA (u know, SA is part of the game).
Wetrat, P38 is far easier than any 190 for this MA (900 yards kill capability included) and, in any case, do you mean that flying P38/P40/C202 I will see less spits/La7/N1K2? LOL
bockko, diversity is not depending only on what do you fly, it is also depending on what panes you fly against. As an example in another environment, imagine an rol game with only 3 different enemy types, but you can choose everything you want about your player (race,etc), funny game, right?
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
bockko, diversity is not depending only on what do you fly, it is also depending on what panes you fly against. As an example in another environment, imagine an rol game with only 3 different enemy types, but you can choose everything you want about your player (race,etc), funny game, right?
You really need to read this back to yourself Mandoble.
Who the hell are you talking too? Everyone else?
MiniD
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Mandoble, the P38 is a few order of magnitudes tougher to fly in the MA than any 190. It is just a couple mph faster than the Spit IX, doesn't accelerate as well as a 190, and it is a HUGE target.
DJ- I understand the 'diversity starts with YOU' stuff you (and a few others are saying), but Mandoble's got an equally valid point when he says that what he flies won't have any impact at all on the numbers of spits/la7s/n1ks/p51s in the arena. He'll just die more since he is in a slower plane.
I'm at the point where I just want to know the total number of sorties that each model flies... it seems like at least 75% of the planes that I see are one of the 'big 4'. Possibly that is because of that free trial going on now, I don't know. It comes down to really 3 choices. If you want to be on 'even footing' with everyone else, you fly one of the big 4. If you want to be able to get away from spits and n1ks, but not fly a P51 or La7, you usually fly the german stuff. If you want to get dominated, you fly something else.
P47, P38, P40, F6F, Fm2/F4F, the early german planes, ki-61, well, actually just about everything other than the 109G10 and 190D9 are kind of outmatched in the MA.
A P38 isn't fast enough to catch a P51 or La7, so they can bore N zoom you at will. It doesn't turn well enough to fight a Spit IX or N1K2 (plus it really isn't fast enough to get away from one), so you get screwed there too. Same with the rest of the list above- nobody but a masochist would even try to fly those planes unless they are comfortably tucked in with a horde that outnumbers the enemy.
109G10 and 190D9 are very competitive in the MA, which is why they are a good choice for people that don't want to fly the 'dweeb rides', but don't want to get dominated by them either.
Anyway, that spiel really had no point at all, so I'll shut up now.
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So Mandoble, let me see if I understand your point: you would prefer to encounter a much wider mix of the planes available in the game. Also, due to the models you encounter (lala, 51 etc) you fly a plane that gives you a fighting chance when on fighter missions. I hope I am near the mark.
I don't know how HT could put in place a diversity plan without upsetting those who have their favorite rides. While it would be nice to see many more models in action, I personally don't want a complex perk plan dropped on me. Part of the draw of the game is being able to hop into a popular plane (or, more specifically, your ride of choice) and go mix it up.
Of course, unperking the spit xiv :) .........now that's a good idea
later, bockk
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Can't we solve both Lazs' and Mandobles problems in one fell swoop (tm).
Now, I'm not being rude. I need to know why a prek system that is used across the board will not work?
You perk everything BUT the most early war stuff. So Lazs gets his early war fights more often. Mandoble gets his diversity.
Problem solved, no? Of course not. Nothing is that simple.
You start evert tour with 500 perks....or whatever is reasonable, plus whatever perks you've earned to date. The veterans get to burn up all those perks they have been saving up, and the newbies get to fly the hot rides until they run out of their perk allowance, or they learn how to survive. Plus we eliminate the Pork and Auger group.
Would this affect me? Sure would. I fly the F6F and the FM2 mostly. If I run out of perks, I have to the the F4F...which is....not good to say the least. Will I logoff? Cancel my account? Hell no, I love a challenge! I would bust my bellybutton to rebuild my perk base and get my Hellcat back.
I know this has been proposed before. I just can't remember why everyone hated it.
To summerize:
Perk all but the earliest, least capable war planes. Everyone gets a perk allowance st the start of the tour. Those with perks get to keep them and use them. Run out of perks? Fly the weaker planes. Land your kills, you get to keep your hot ride.
Comments? And can we keep it civil?
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LOL mandoble... surely you don't believe the P-38 is easier to fly than a dora? The P-38 is slow, a huge target, average turn radius, average acceleration, slightly above average climb rate. The dora is fast, small, slightly below average turn radius, above average acceleration, well above average climb rate (on WEP).
The P-38 is better than a dora 1 vs 1. Do you know how often I find 1 vs 1's in an MA filled with runners in doras, mustangs, and la7's?
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Originally posted by bockko
Of course, unperking the spit xiv :) .........now that's a good idea
No, it really isn't. The spit XIV is perked for very good reason.
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Never happen Muck. New players need the 'uber rides' to compete (or at least they think they do). Plus it will drive away at least some customers, which I doubt HTC would ever do voluntarily.
A lot of the U.S. stuff we have is 1944 or later also.. even the P-51B was introduced in early 1944. Think the D-11 was as well, but that might have gotten in in late '43. P-38L is 1944 also. La5FN, Yak-9U, maybe even the Yak-9T are '44. Even the N1K2 is a 1944 plane.
So they either say "ok, the MA is now 1943 level, so all the USAAF and VVS planes are perked", or they say "well, it is 1943 level for planes that have a 1943 varient, if not then the 1944 planes are in".
In which case everyone that flies the P-51D and La-7 switch to whatever the fastest plane available is (probably the P-51B, maybe the Yak-9U if it isnt perked) and instead of seeing 10% of the MA (at a minimum, I think it is higher personally) in the P-51d, La-7, Spit IX, and N1K2, we see 20% in the Spit IX and 20% in whatever the new 'best fast plane' is.
The only way we are going to get 'more diversity' (that means anything anyway) would be to introduce the Ki-84 and any other 'super planes' that haven't been introduced yet. Any plane that has a significant performance advantage over the rest of the plane-set will get significant use.
EDIT: I'd be in favor of unperking the F4U-4, Spit XIV, and Ta-152... they don't offer any significant advantages over the P-51D/La-7 in my opinion, and that would be another way to 'increase diversity'.
I guess it just isn't evident to some people, but the vast majority of people will *never* (and I mean ever) attempt to fight on 'even' terms in any case. Even in a case where they have absolutely nothing to lose (like... a video game like AH). People will *always* grab at any advantage they can. It is just as obvious in any other game.. in practically every 'mmorpg' there is a 'best' class (or 'flavor of the month', depending on which classes got nerfed this time around). That class is the 'favorite' not because people love its historical significance, or they grew up dreaming to be a XXX (you go ahead and translate that into AH-ese, it isn't tough) but because it is the BEST CLASS. Most reward for littlest effort. It is human nature, can't be changed.
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Alright, I don't know the plane set as well as you do Urchin. But it's obvious HTC knows which planes are more capable than others. Thats how he assigned ENY values.
So forget about dates. Use the ENY values to assign perk rates.
And as for the newbies, they and everyone else gets a perk allowance at the beginning of each tour. So they can fly the UBER rides, but they must do so wisely, lest they lose all their perks.
Example: I personally was never much of a fighter pilot until the last 4 or 5 tours. So I don't have the perks a pure fighter jock has. I think I have 100 fighter perks...really...don't laugh. Now, I like to fly the C-hog. But I don't just fly it anytime. I save the perks for the missions the C-Hog is most needed for, and I fly the plane carefully, yet agressivly. It makes the game more interesting for me, because SURVIVING actually means something.
So the Noobs get their Perk allowance. They get their hot rides, and they are encouraged to survive. The vets with a million perks fly whatever they want, until they burn through their perks. Bottom line, we get more planes of different types in the arena, as people run out of perks. Everything but the lowest planes on the ENY scale get perked to some extent.
I mean, it's like any other MMORPG...you don't start with a 300 level elf, or whatever in Everquest. You earn it. Why should we not earn the better planes here?
Frankly, this debate will be moot ina few months when AHII comes out.
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I had a five or six to one kill death ratio in the Mosquito for the first half of this tour, then I screwed it up doing dumb stuff. But if I can get that kind of kill/death ratio in a slow, poor performing aircraft most everybody else should be able to do far better.
You don't have to be a masochist to fly aircraft other than the P-51D, La-7, Spitfire Mk IX, N1K2-J, Fw190D-9, Bf109G-10 or Typhoon. The other aircraft aren't that hard to use.
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I've worked up an 8 to 1 kill ratio in the F6F...and I really suck!
The only thing I have to do is invest the time to climb out, so I have the E to catch the fast planes, and fly smart.
Personally, I hate the P-51. I can't do a damn thing with it. But with perk everything idea, even the F6F would be perked. I'm willing to take on the challenge for a more diverse MA.
But it does not matter. Like I said, AHII will make this thread moot...for me anyway. Hopefully, those staying in the MA will get what they want too.
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muck... I doubt that the fm2 or even the f6f would be 'perked' even if they were the value would be so low that I could fly one for the next 20 years... heck I would probly end up accumulating perks... I got like `10,000 of em now... the perk system sucks... it is unfair, unbalancing and it turns off new players.
If I wanted I could fly a tempest for the next 6 months ... I just think they are boring.
and mandoble... fly an FM2 and I guarentee that your kill variety will increase.
lazs
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assuming lazs2 is lazs in the game, here is a guy who kicks butt in a less capable plane. In fact, judging by score he flies the fm2 with complete disregard to the performance traits of more capable planes. I would be much more willing to listen to perk talk if the best players consistently flew less capable planes, however this seems to be rare. When I see the 'balance the planes' crowd lead by example I will start listening seriously. Until then its one person's preference to another's. Oh and whoever the real lazs is, nice work!
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Originally posted by Innominate
It's not apples to oranges. They're both planes. One obviously should be perked, the other can be argued for either way. But your argument can be applied equally to both. If i pay my $15 a month, why shouldn't I be able to fly the 262?
Last tour I had 243 kills in a DHog. I had very good success against the La7, 262's were a different story.
It is apples to oranges- Prop plane to Jet plane.
I see what you are all getting at, but they would drive off customers if they perked all the late war planes. Alot of pilots are of the novice group, but they like to be competitive. If you take away the planes that give them a fighting chance against the dedicated sim pilot, they will get frustrated easy and say"this game sucks, I'm going to FA3.5, WB, IL2, where at least I can fly an La7." Who wants to fly a P40?
Those victories by the novice pilot in those La7's and Niks that you so despise, keep them happy. And that's not a bad thing. If they are getting defeated in a p40 by the the good pilots over and over, they are not going to keep flying this sim.
What I do think is a good argument is the score in these planes. I think winning $50 bucks a month flying a spit9 or a Nik oppposed to someone who flew a p40 all month is wrong. I'm not sure how the rank system works, but if you have success in a p40, your score should be multiplied tenfold.
The bottom line is they have to keep the average sim pilot happy, so they will not perk these planes.
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Lazs-
That is the inherint problem. Guys like you who have a ton of perks wcan fly and die the better rides forever. The fact that you fly the FM2 so much, as much as I hate to admit it, is commendable, and proof of your character. You could be tooling aorund in a 262, but you choose not to. Why? I suspect you enjoy a challenge. Could it be we actually have something in common? Please call me a "Fluffer" before we start getting along.
But we can't just wipe the slate clean, and take away everyones perks. There'd be a revolution. People assaulting the grapevine office, carrying torches and pitchforks....
So we're kind of screwed here.
My point to sixpence is like I said earlier. If novice pilots dropped AH just because they could not always have their hot ride, then why are games like Everquest so popular? I know when I played Ultima online, I'd get my bellybutton kicked every other day by some super PK with too much time. But I never quit. It inspired me to get better so the victories were that much sweeter.
Why should a newbie be entitled to just hop in and fly the hot ride without earning it?
Even still, I'm giving them X perk points to use each tour to fly their hot little ride. All I'm asking is that they preserve them, fly smart, and they keep their planes.
Will this work? We'll never know, because as many have pointed out, it will never be implimented. HTC is working on AHII right now. Thats' the main concern. What will happen to the MA after AHII is anyones guess, but they've already said, aside from bug fixes, they are not working on the MA, or Aces High Classic, as they will call it. I think I read somwhere, that there will be no further development of AH Classic..but I could be wrong on that.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Why should a newbie be entitled to just hop in and fly the hot ride without earning it?
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Tempest, Spit14, 262, CHog, 163, are the hot rides, and they are perked.
_____________________________ _____________________
Even still, I'm giving them X perk points to use each tour to fly their hot little ride. All I'm asking is that they preserve them, fly smart, and they keep their planes.
Not a bad idea, but like I said, they have to keep the majority happy, so they will not perk the la7 and the Nik. I consider the spit5 a harder kill, I mean, do we perk that too?
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I don't know the plane set that well, but I would say perk everything but the 10 planes with the lowest ENY or Highest ENY value. (whichever means thats considered by HTC to be weakest). I'm not sure how ENY values work, but you get my drift.
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Muckmaw,
Here's you're proposed list of non-perked planes:
C-47A: 60 ENY
C.202: 60 ENY
Spitfire Mk I: 60 ENY
Hurricane Mk I: 57 ENY
Bf109E-4: 55 ENY
B5N2: 50 ENY
Bf110C-4b: 50 ENY
D3A1: 50 ENY
Hurricane Mk IID: 50 ENY
Ju87D-3: 50 ENY
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It does not matter what people are flying when you are trying to kill them. It only matters how they are flying. No matter what plane you put them in... you will not change the MA.
You can engage 10 different P-51s in the MA and you will get 10 different types of fights. This is not AI with predictable reactions we are dealing with... its people making choices. If people are running, they will continue to do so no matter what the planeset. If people are HO'ing, they will continue to do so no matter what the planeset. Its behavior that drives this game, not performance.
I don't fly an F6F-5 nor a P-40 for the performance or the challenge. I fly them because I love those two planes. I've found both of them more than capable of holding their own on equal terms with most planes. The ones that they have trouble with have not been mentioned in this thread.
I've gone against G-10 pilots that insist on diving, running and climbing. I've also gone against G-10 pilots that have been at the bottom of a canyon fighting it out with my P-40 at 100feet... riding the walls and having a good ole time. The difference was not the plane.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Karnak
Muckmaw,
Here's you're proposed list of non-perked planes:
C-47A: 60 ENY
C.202: 60 ENY
Spitfire Mk I: 60 ENY
Hurricane Mk I: 57 ENY
Bf109E-4: 55 ENY
B5N2: 50 ENY
Bf110C-4b: 50 ENY
D3A1: 50 ENY
Hurricane Mk IID: 50 ENY
Ju87D-3: 50 ENY
Show me how those planes not listed above effect the balance of game play (real concrete proof, not just whines like MANDOBLES) and I'll agree that they should be perked. Just because a plane flew in a certain period or is faster than another or a lot of people like to fly it, shouldn't be the reason why a plane is perked. Only time a plane should be perked is if it causes an unbalance in the gameplay.
ack-ack
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bockko... I am the real lazs..thank u.. I get lucky once in a while... mostly people feel sorry for me tho because i am old and feeble.
muck... yeah.. I like to feel that I didn't start with a huge advantage simply by clicking on one plane type over another. The victory feels more like "my" victory than the planes...But.. It still wouldn't matter... most people are gonna fly the best advantage they can get.. the problem is quite simple... there is just such a huge gulf between the the best and worst that they shouldn't even be in the same arena or.... at least not in the same area. fact is... my fm2 does well at close fields where the late monsters are out of place.. we need some close and some far fields or more cv's or.... all of the above and..... an early war area in the arena. Heck.... I would fly late war monsters in the late war area.... I flew a tempest a few times this tour out of frustration and to chase down the sissies and show em how it feels.
deja... most forget that I flew the -1a allmost exclussivly last year.. I didn't fly it any different (I flew it poorly in other words) than I do the fm2 ... I flew it aggressivly as a turnfiter... er... "angles" fighter
karnak... take away all my perks and in one nite I will have enough for 20 fm2 sorties with your 'perk em all' confusing mess and.... I will never have to get back into a non perked plane.
If we give everyone a bunch of perks to start out it just assures me that I will face nothing but fast planes for the entire beggining of the tour... it makes it worse for me... I will still earn a toejamload of (to me) useless perks.
lazs
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sixpence makes a good point... if yu perk everything and then give everyone a bunch of perks to start..... I will still fly the FM2 and be ticked off for the entire beggining of the tour...
the new guys will get their butts handed to em in their perk rides by other perk players and be unhappy..... unhappier still when they are stuck in all but useless ac for the rest (majority)of the tour!
The good players who are morally bankrupt will fly perk planes all tour (since they will have even more helpless victums stuck in useless planes) and.... I will slaughter spit ones and 202's flown by newbies in my fm2....
I will never find a good fite and the newbies will be unhappy 90-100% of the time... most will just log off after their perk points are over and cancel their accounts after a while.
lazs
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El Gay-7...?
Spit...?
N1K...?
P-51...?
I haven't seen any of these in over a week... or maybe a few weeks. Hmmm...?
Oh wait, I only fly in the CT.
Nevermind.
eskimo
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Originally posted by lazs2
deja... most forget that I flew the -1a allmost exclussivly last year.. I didn't fly it any different (I flew it poorly in other words) than I do the fm2 ... I flew it aggressivly as a turnfiter... er... "angles" fighter
don't really know why this was directed at me lazs... I didn't intend to imply anyone specific was doing anything specific in an aircraft. I meant everyone flies differently no matter what you put them in.
But since you brought it up... why the -1a? And... why were you successful in an early war plane vs late war rides?
The point is, someone can complain about what others are flying all they want... it doesn't make any difference. Its basically other pilots that you are complaining about... not their aircraft. Take those pilot's planes away and they'll just complain about their next ride.
MiniD
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deja... I was agreeing with you.. I flew the -1a as you described the way some g10 guys do... on the deck turning but.... I am by far in the minority...
I think I do ok in planes like the -1a and fm2 because most don't expect me to attack them so they blank me out as a threat. that requires that there be more than a few planes in the area tho.
lazs
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Lazs is successful for a couple reasons. Lazs, this is no way an insult directed at you, so please don't take it that way- I know you are a very capable pilot.
Anyway, Lazs is successful for 2 reasons. First, he is a good pilot. That does play a role.
Second- Lazs doesn't fly alone. I don't believe I've ever seen him just out cruising around looking for solo enemies. He flies with his squadmates and they watch out for each other. Thus, he has more success in an "early war" F4U-1A than I think an equally skilled pilot who doesn't fly with a group of people would have. This, in my opinion, plays an even larger role in his success than his ability does.
I know it works that way for me, when I am flying alone I'll consider a 4 kill sortie to be a good sortie- when I used to fly with JG2 I wasn't happy unless I had 8-10 kills if we were flying as a group.. it is that much easier.
5 guys working together in inferior planes have a much better shot at killing 5 guys in superior planes that aren't working together than 1 guy in an inferior plane has at killing 1 guy in a superior plane.
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Im miffed 3 of my deaths this month are to a guy who cant even hold a 1-2 k/d in a spit 9.
2 of my deaths are Il-2s to his pony, 1 is 110 to his la7 and his horde of spit friends.
But Ive killed him everytime fight was even.
think of spits and la7s and ponys as crutches for baby seals.
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pooh21, just because a dweeb killed you doesn't mean all pilots of that type of plane are! sounds to me like you got ganged. Perhaps you are a better pilot than the mystery dweeb who nailed you three times, but as long as there are hordes we will all suffer the horde death. Not the plane's fault. Pilot's fault, yours for getting in deep, theirs for hording. Not the plane's fault.
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Originally posted by wetrat
is probably a better fighter. Hell, I've been flying P-38's all tour and I'm 17-1 against them, and the G10 is twice the plane..
You outta your mind?
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urchin... not to split hairs but... 90% of the time I fly with only one or two squaddies and they are pretty far off... spread out you may be seeing that I fly in groups.... at groups. My bute t is saved by other countrymen as much as by squaddies... the squaddies just do it better..
The rare times that we have 4 or more squaddies up is a real treat for us. help like no other.
and... let's clear something up... flying low and slow I have fought a lot of the new guys and they... the ones who fight... are pretty damn good... and getting better.. the high alt newbies and even vets who are terminally timid are much easier to kill in my opinion.
lazs
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not to mention add themselves to the prox kill lists?
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Originally posted by bockko
[Bfunny, all those kill in a d9 -- the way i read mandoble's post is he wants more diversity in everyone else, otherwise I would expect to see his kills spread out among many other planes, but all d9 kills? The whole diversity point of this thread in baseless.
[/B]
Couldn't agree more.
I don't understand your argument at all Mandoble.
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Curval, read the thread and you will.
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Yeah Curval, read the thread and you'll understand that MANDOBLE is a hypocrite.
And lazs, I couldn't agree more about the new guys who fly low. Alot of them can be a better fight than some of the better pilots who are, as you said, "terminally timid."
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yep... a lot of these newbies who are aggressive would kick the crap out of some of the more well known "historical" pile it's
I get a better fight out of them than I do some of the vets who come at me with a 5k advantage in a plane 50 mph faster than mine. man... i would be a little deflated if I attacked a low slow plane with a dee 9 and then got my tailfeathers pinged and had to run for my life so that I would't suffer the indignity of dieing and him knowing who I was.
lazs
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wetrat, u seem to have 50% of your brain out of order. Diversity has two factors: what you fly and what you fight. And no, I'm not flying 190 exclusively. This tour I have about 90 aerial sorties, perhaps 25 have been using D9. You are so simplistic, you think that number of kills determine the usage of a plane, right?
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mandoble... the planes that aren't being used are the mediocre and the early war planes...
If the arena were more fair to them so that we had a lot more divirsity then it would mean that the planes you like would have to be banned... you can't have an arena with late war fast planes and early war planes and the fields spread out to over a sector apart... if you do... people will fly only the late war fast ones... so... you have to get rid of all the fast ones..
that means that.... In order for you to get your wish... we would have to ban every plane that youi like to fly.
lazs
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lazs2, you should know that your idea will end with a MA full of uber spitVs blazing hizookas everywhere. Do you really want that kind of diversity?
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Not really. Well, maybe, but I doubt it. An area where early war planes could fly might lead to Spit V, but it it had the Spit V it would also have the 109F- and a fight between a 109F and a Spit V is a lot more fun than a fight between a Spit IX and a 109G10.
It'd be worth a shot anyway, having one little area with nothing but Spit V's (or whatever early war plane you want) would mean that you'd see less Spit V's out there in the 'big' MA Mandoble, so who loses? Nobody, as far as I can see.
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Simplistic? maybe. But that doesn't change the fact that you're a whining squeak who flies the easiest LW plane most of the time..
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hahaha wetrat, you seem too obssesed with what I fly or what I do, when, at the same time, I have no idea, nor interest at all on what you fly nor what you do neither what you think.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
hahaha wetrat, you seem too obssesed with what I fly or what I do, when, at the same time, I have no idea, nor interest at all on what you fly nor what you do neither what you think.
LOL! then why the hell start this thread?
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It was so long ago I think he forgot why.
bowser
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
hahaha wetrat, you seem too obssesed with what I fly or what I do, when, at the same time, I have no idea, nor interest at all on what you fly nor what you do neither what you think.
And yet you've got this dweebish obssession with what everyone else flies. The hypocrisy is starting to get a little thick MANDOBLE.
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
And yet you've got this dweebish obssession with what everyone else flies. The hypocrisy is starting to get a little thick MANDOBLE.
Ack-Ack
I agree AKAK and mandoble to your comment on the 38 "P38 is far easier than any 190 for this MA" I say HA! You wouldn't last 10 minutes in a 38...hehehe! That's WAY too funny. :D