Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: jarbo on March 27, 2001, 05:51:00 AM
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Yes, I think the problem with the Main Arena is the lack of ability to decieve the enemy with one's intentions. The Sector Alert Grid is way too small. Anyone can look on the map and see exactly what target your hitting by sector alert alone, despite the fact you may have disabled a given fields "local" radar. I firmly believe this is what has resorted folks to going "off map" to obtain an element of surprize. I believe the size of the grid (in conjunction with inability to fly low enough to avoid a sector alert) has contributed to a pure furballing tactic in the main. If this could be rectified, i think the arena could be taken to a whole different level om strategies and tactics.
Jarbo
Operations Officer
The Buccaneers
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Dot dar disabled when flying, or some inaccuracy with the dots when flying, or even dar off when flying would really help here.
OTOH, if you're in tower, we'd simulate having access to radar, ground ovbservers and so forth.
Reduced radar efficiency would be fun, i think.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Jarbo I have been able to pull off covert ops as a solo and not trip the sector indicator. This has worked for me to bomb a field's ack alone and return then with an M3 or C47 to take the field. But it only works if you're solo and not even all the time. If someone else comes into the sector your mission can be blown.
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Have been doing some hours lately in Brand X's WWII arena.Long time since I have been there, allmost forgot what radar off, downtoning of icons, a little haze to cover you, a biiig blinding sun (finally got ours :=) can do.
Sure Brand X smells old but the immensive factor....
danish
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Spitlead. On your FE you are not displayed in the sector bar, but you are for everyone else. Just try next time you appear to be alone in a sector to ask your contrymen if they see your bar.
However, I actually would like if a single or even two planes could fly in a sector without triggering the radar.
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Snefens, good point. I assumed if I couldn't see it no one else could. Next time I'll ask.
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For playability's sake, how easy do you want to make field captures? Its already plenty easy for a group of coordinated fighters and/or buffs to capture a field by some level of surprise.
You get rid of dar bars or change it any and it becomes a run and gun field capture fest, something that many of us would not be too fond of. I imagine the kind of tactics you are going to get is to have small groups of planes flying to an out of the way field just to capture it knowing that they wont show up on dar.
And when they get "discovered", they do their next "secret strike" to a different far off base. Do you really want to chase these "covert missions" all over the map knowing that you wont spot them until the field falls or someone stumbles upon them?
I think sector bars are fine for representing those resources like friendly spotters and intel to warn of an impending strike. Besides, Im for making base captures MORE challenging, not less.
-Ding
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Good points Dingy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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I liked the way AW did things in this regaurd. You would get text messages from HQ stating
"Enemy approaching field X"
"Enemy approaching city X"
"Field X is under attack" When 1-5 planes attacking
"Field X is under HEAVY attack" When 6 or more planes attacking
"Field X is silent" When the tower was destroyed.
If AH implemented something like this, I would be all for removal of inflight radar, but would want at least to be able to "ask" HQ (via .COMMAND) for enemy position reports. Otherwise, you may see that there are enemy in a sector so you take off. Then the enemy all land and go elsewhere, so you end up flying all over looking for someone who isn;t there anymore.
GPS radar inflight is overkill, but SOMETHING needs to be available to let pilots know if there is something around to shoot at. Enough said.
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Midnight
13th TAS[/i]
midnight@13thtas.com
"You tell them I'm coming.. And Hell's coming with me!" -Kurt Russel Tombstone
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I actually agree with dingy and...
A lot of guys are finding the arena very boring lately. the fights are too spread out and you have to travel too far to get too em with the simplistic and unrealistic "fighter hanger down" strat. The fights we do have now are either gang bang or be gangbanged and hide and run away. When the radar goes down it just accentuates the gangbanging.
Any way you look at it there is a lot less action these days and the fields are too easy to disable fighters. Killing the dar or limiting it would only make things worse for a lot of us who don't care about the (cough) "strat".
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs:
A lot of guys are finding the arena very boring lately
Really?. Great. Care to name them please? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by SpitLead:
Snefens, good point. I assumed if I couldn't see it no one else could. Next time I'll ask.
Yep, you can't see yourself in status bar but everyone else can. Stay low and they can't see your dot but will see the bar.
Eagler
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The only thing I'd like to see changed in regards to radar is no deflection for NOE flying... like less than 200 feet.
AKDejaVu
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Well, I am for blurring the dar dot, not for field captures, but to prevent people (myself included) from hitting escape to see if there are any enemy cons near, and if, so, exactly where (provided within friendly field range).
Bigger pucker factor with some blurring of dot position
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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No Bar Radar for A/C under 500 feet would be enough for me.
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AMEN!!!
KILL THE AWACS NOW!!!
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Just to clarify on the bar radar and NOE flying...
I think the con should show as a dot regardless of altitude within 3-5 miles of any enemy base.
NOE flying needs to be made somewhat effective, but it should not mask people actually hitting a field.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 03-27-2001).]
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I can see both sides have good points to make. It’s refreshing to see a post like this where people are using rational, game-play based arguments, rather than ranting a raving about “off-map cheaters” and the perceived moral rightness/wrongness of others’ actions. Salute to a good thread, Jarbo et al!
Now, my own caffeine-sharpened take on all this: I don’t have a problem with the sector bar, per se, just that it is unaffected by environmental factors. I use the term “environmental factors” to mean not just whether and terrain, but also other factors in the arena environment. I think that the optimum solution is a conglomeration of those presented here. It would allow some element of surprise without making it impossible… only difficult. The surprise would be of limited duration, but would provide a decisive advantage for that narrow window.
First let’s address the function of the HQ – Loss of the HQ, which represents the central node of an air defense network, should not take all radar down, only in-flight radar. Sitting in the tower, you should still be able to see dots (and only dots, not sector bars) for anything in range of that field’s radar. This is consistent with what the loss of the central command/control/communications/intelligence (C3I, in military parlance) would do to your ability to see “the big picture.” It would force your country to wait for the threat to come to you, as you sit in the tower of the most likely targets, or rely on a human GCIO. Loss of radar dish at a base should obviously result in the loss of all radar indicators at that base when your HQ is down. If the HQ is up, and assuming no overlapping radar coverage from an adjacent base, loss of a field radar should do away with dots but not sector bars. One other point, I like the automated intel messages, such as AW used…so long as when the HQ goes down those stop!
Environmental factors – Flying very low or very high was one way to avoid detection. By flying below radar or by using terrain masking, you should be able to avoid showing a dot on the enemy’s radar display. Terrain masking is a feature sorely lacking in AH, the inclusion of which would greatly enhance the range of tactics now available. What about the sector bar? This is supposed to simulate the non-radar sensors, such as spotters and radio intercept (known as SIGINT, or signals intelligence, in the real world). How do you traditionally defeat these? Fly very high or very low, preferably in small groups, and go at night. You can also take advantage of natural phenomenon such as flying above an overcast. My suggestion then is to make a sector bar reporting dependent on the following: 1) having the HQ up; 2) whether or not you’re over “populated” areas (out over the ocean or unpopulated dessert/jungle, there’s no one to spot you?); 3) altitude (fly above 20k ft and you won’t trigger a sector bar, so long as you fly within to the remaining restrictions that follow); 4) the number of fellow countrymen in the sector (two or three aircraft flying very high, very low, or above a cloud layer should not show give a sector bar); and 5) You don’t use the country or sector channel on the radio. This last may be unworkable, since you could defeat rule 5 using Roger Wilco. If any aircraft in a sector violates the above restrictions, they trigger a sector bar display.
Does all this sound complicated? Yes, and it should. Innovations in tactics and strategy have become more complex as the tools of war have grown in sophistication. Driving off the map is a simple tactic because the simple C3I model allows it. With a more complex equation, such as described above, you are forced to plan and execute missions much more carefully to achieve tactical surprise, but are rewarded when you do. Automated messages of airfields under light/medium/heavy attack keeps the window of opportunity such a surprise creates reasonably short.
Just my take on the issue...sorry for the length (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
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Sabre (a.k.a. Rojo)
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A couple of points I'd like to make,
1) It is possible to surprise a target if you plan your mission correctly. Just find a spot where there are 2 possible targets and then not show your hand until the last second. It doesn't give the enemy time to respond. Been there, done that. Works like a hot damn. The main problem, all the strat targets are in the same place, close together, or in the same direction so any raid tends to overfly half of them to get to the one they are going to hit.
2) NOE flying. What about all the factors that made NOE flying really dangerous, like telephone wires, trees, down-drafts, windshear, unmarked AAA emplacements, observers, or farmers with rifles... not modelled in AH. The dar bar is the only defense and it's pretty damn hard to find someone running along the ground sometimes. I've looked and not found them unless the target they are trying to hit is pretty obvious or I'm lucky.
3) Not many people are going to sit in the tower and call out the cons for other people to fly to. I wouldn't pay my $50CDN to do it, I doubt many others will either.
I don't know, I think the dar model we have is at least something we can work with. With any less info available to the player then everyone would just log on and say "So, where's the furball right now" and go fly there for hours while a select few would run around and capture bases at will since 2 fighters could come in low, take all the ack out in 2 passes, and have the goon roll in right behind. Boy wouldn't that be fun... yawn.
-Soda
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Jarbo,
I'm with you on this one. The radar is way too telling. Being able to pull off a NOE flight without radar detection would inspire people to be more creative not only in their attack strategies, but in their defensive strategies. Driving a goon would be fun again, too. I like the idea of no radar in flight, but have it accessible (unless knocked out, of course) on the ground. Go for it big guy!
Buhdman, out
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I second Funked's motion. Kill Awacs before it kills us.
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
Besser tot als rot
[This message has been edited by Glasses (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Blurring dot dar is good, but take it one further, any dot outside icon range from friendly ground structure shows as grey, no matter whose side it's on. (Last time I checked, WW2 radar didn't come with IFF, and ground observers make mistakes)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Originally posted by Dingy:
I think sector bars are fine for representing those resources like friendly spotters and intel to warn of an impending strike.
-Ding
IMO, to solve the problem is simple. Radar (dots) detects any contact in range above a determinate alt (300 feet). Bars (representing "those resources" are activated only if a plane flies below a determinate alt (15k).
So, if you want to aproach a base unnoticed by radar, better fly low, if you want to enter a sector unnoticed by spotters, better fly hi.
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What Sabre said (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Jayhawk
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"Little boy blue....cause he needed the money".....owwwww
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I remember when I first started playing the WB's main arena a few years ago. 200+ in the arena, I don't remember hearing newbies complain.
Before you took off, you always checked radar. It wasn't something you just took for granted. Having tower-only radar brought the countrymen together. When you replaned, and saw something unusual on radar, you called out on country channel, let the guys know what was going on.
Unfortunately, I don't think HTC could change the radar now if they wanted. Too many guys have gotten used to the lazy man's 'dar that we have now. Shame. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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I like what Sabre said.
It may look long winded, but this is a complex issue. Read it, it makes sense.
eskimo
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Originally posted by lazs:
I actually agree with dingy and...
A lot of guys are finding the arena very boring lately. the fights are too spread out and you have to travel too far to get too em with the simplistic and unrealistic "fighter hanger down" strat. The fights we do have now are either gang bang or be gangbanged and hide and run away. When the radar goes down it just accentuates the gangbanging.
Any way you look at it there is a lot less action these days and the fields are too easy to disable fighters. Killing the dar or limiting it would only make things worse for a lot of us who don't care about the (cough) "strat".
lazs
Are you sure you aren't in the dueling arena lazs? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I haven't had any problem finding fights out there when I want to. I think your focus on furballing is clouding your vision and you just aren't willing to look for a fight unless the fight comes to you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) That isn't anybody else's fault but your own.
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Sling322
Not a Monitor!
Fat Drunk Bastards
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Well, with the new terrain I'm working on w/NUTTZ, NOE flying will be quite ... interesting. So maybe at that point we can have sector counters for targets 500 ft above the deck only (unless w/in 5 mi of an installation).
-DoK
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Dingy...my main point is that the sector size is too small, and pinpoints the target in most cases. My guess is its too dificult to reprogram the size of the grids; therefore, another solution must be found. I just think the current in-cockpit information is too precise. I do however agree that when an enemy is deep in your territory you should get some indication they are there, just mainly on the front lines there should be less specific data on the enemys movements.
St Santa - dot blurring is a good idea IMHO.
Sabre - good point on HQ down and dots available from tower.
Soda - beef up the field such that 2 fighters cant sneak it with a new tactical surprize element.
Jarbo
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Originally posted by jarbo:
I firmly believe this is what has resorted folks to going "off map" to obtain an element of surprize.
Um...there is NO justification for off map sorties.
Let's all continue to give poss reps and country affiliation whenever this watermelon is observed.
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Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Leisure
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sling said... "Are you sure you aren't in the dueling arena lazs? I haven't had any problem finding
fights out there when I want to. I think your focus on furballing is clouding your vision
and you just aren't willing to look for a fight unless the fight comes to you. That
isn't anybody else's fault but your own."
Hmmm.... well, not sure you read what I wrote. Are you saying that the fights are not more spread out and that the fights are not more lopsided lately?
What I find is that with the dar you are able to locate a fight but that if you are close to it.... Someone will drop the fighter hangers (or fuel) in short order. End of even numbered fighting...At that point, you can go back a field or two and fly to the fight with one or two others and either no one will be there when you finally make it or... it will be swarming over with greens and one or two reds or... you will get there with one or two greens and it will be swarming over with reds.
either way... the setup makes for a whole lot more flying around than actually fighting. It is of course worse if you belong to a country that is understrength or just not interested in organizing. At best tho... it is gang bang or be gangbanged lately and lack of radar would just make it worse. But thanks for your opinion.
lazs