Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs2 on March 16, 2003, 09:10:41 AM
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then how bout we add the f8 bearcat to the planeset...
think about it... a late war plane that is actually fun to fly! what a concept.. not so fast that the terminally timid couldn't run away and.... certainly every bit as "historical as the (lol) dee 9.
they made more of em than dee 9's and 300 were in combat (if yu count being on carriers in the ocean"being in combat") they were in VF 19 before the end of the war... hundreds were being delivered and flown in the states before the end of the war.
estimates are between 700 and 1000 were built before the end of the war and it was just bad luck for the sim that, unlike the dee 9, they weren't straffed at the factory or delivery point and thus "saw combat".
anyhow.. they would be a fun plane for the late war arena as it is.
lazs
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ohhh, you missed a great CAP event yesterday, all early war!
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Hmm, the bearcat. That would certainly add more flavor to the arena, and imagine the comic relief on the UBB and on channel 1!:)
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rip.. if i can't just click on it and take off then i will allways 'miss' it.
lazs
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If a bearcat was available, I wouldn't fly anything else.
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I'd like to see a Bearcat eventually, Tigercat too if it was actually in the war (I've touched both of them- I know that sounds weird :)). Both beautiful airplanes... the F7F Tigercat is freaking gigantic. By the way, the best air musuem I've ever been to for WW2 planes is the Pensacola NAS Museum... it has just about EVERY WW2 USN plane, plus a N1K2, a P40B, and a couple zekes.
All right out there on the floor, you can walk up and touch the planes.
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I'd love to see an F8F Bearcat!
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The Spitfire Mk XIV already meets you're requirements lazs. It can't run so it has to fight.
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BTW, for equal time, lets petition for the A7M Reppu. Heh, if we are going out there on a limb for a bearcat, lets just ask for our cake and ask to eat it too:)
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Question????
190D9 was used in combat in WWII, but I believe that the F8F Wasn't used at all.
The First F8F Squadron VF-19 was onboard the carrier USS Langley, enroute across the Pacific, when the war ended on August 16, 1945. So, it never saw combat in the War. I don't think Aces High should have any plane that wasn't used in combat... Now since the D9 only had 700 made....maybe it should be a peak plane like the F4U-4 is.
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Combat use has little or nothing to do with what planes are selected for inclusion in AH.
I believe it's more related to filling a "niche" in the arena.
That said, I think an F8F would be fun as hell, and a RE2005, and a Brewster, and a KI-84, and the Emily, and the B25, and the A-26 Invader, and ....well, I better stop the wish list..............
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Originally posted by llyr69
Combat use has little or nothing to do with what planes are selected for inclusion in AH.
Any plane that never dropped a bomb, or shot down an enemy fighter in ww2 doesnt belong in aces high. There are plenty of good aircraft left to be added. Planes which had an impact on the war. The F8F isnt one of them.
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Any plane that never dropped a bomb, or shot down an enemy fighter in ww2 doesnt belong in aces high. There are plenty of good aircraft left to be added. Planes which had an impact on the war. The F8F isnt one of them.
Stupid C-47's.
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Since the MA is a fantasy anyway, I think we should have any plane in full production or delivered to operational units before wars end.
F.
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Early planes can be made useful. I've always agreed with Lazs' opinion that the early jobs should have a place of their own to fly.
J_A_B
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tee dog... there were probly more f8 bearcats made thatn dee 9's the problem was that they flew around unmolested... they weren't strafed the second they left... or started to be built... at the factory... truth is... there might be a couple dozen dee 9's to that actually "saw combat" in the conventional sense.... If a jap plane woulda straffed vf 19's carrier then I guess the bearcat woulda "seen combat... hardly much of a distinction for inclusion inthe game.
lazs
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Why not just add the Ki-84?
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Originally posted by llyr69
Combat use has little or nothing to do with what planes are selected for inclusion in AH.
I believe it's more related to filling a "niche" in the arena.
All right, then... Precisely what 'niche' would the Bearcat be filling? Sitting on the apron with all the other 'if only we'd gotten it into production faster' planes watching pilots flying the planes that did see use in the war?
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bring the bearcat to the MA... why not?
it's all about fantasy anyway and would be a blast to fly
for the "other" arenas I doubt it would work as far as balancing goes
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i believe somone once posted that the f8 and la7 had very very close stats. turn speed clime were all real real close.
if we can handle a 3 cannon la7 ad f8 dosent seem excesive. even at a cheap perk.
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We get the planes that HT decides to give us. I'm sure for good reasons most of the time. I'm willing to bet there's no set criteria though. How else do you explain the absence of the P39, of which over 9,000 were made? Heck just add it to the game with Russian markings :)
Of course far be from us to be grateful for such a wonderful game...I propose that we invoke our will on HTC "Airheads" style (the movie). We get some real looking water pistols and storm the HTC studios, DEMANDING them to model the planes we want! I mean how else am I going to get the CommonWealth Boomerang added to the game?
Magoo
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Originally posted by lazs2
tee dog... there were probly more f8 bearcats made thatn dee 9's the problem was that they flew around unmolested... they weren't strafed the second they left... or started to be built... at the factory... truth is... there might be a couple dozen dee 9's to that actually "saw combat" in the conventional sense.... If a jap plane woulda straffed vf 19's carrier then I guess the bearcat woulda "seen combat... hardly much of a distinction for inclusion inthe game.
lazs
Lazs,
Are you getting the Fw190D-9 and Ta152 mixed up? Your description fits the Ta152, but not the Fw190D-9. Fw190D-9s saw lots of combat in the traditional sense. There were 700 Fw190D-9s built and they saw heavy useage.
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I don't think so... I know some d9's saw a lot of use but most were destroyed on the ground.
In my opinion... there were at least that many F8's flying around in the hands of squdrons before the war ended it was just that taking off from a field in America did not mean that you would be in combat. They flew.. the stats for them are very well published... they were tested much more than the d9 ever was and stats are probly much more complete and accurate. I also don't think that any game that has an unperked d9 or unperked p51 would be unbalanced by an unperked F8.
lazs
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Reverse psychology only works on children Lazs...nice try though!
;)
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Originally posted by lazs2
tee dog... there were probly more f8 bearcats made thatn dee 9's the problem was that they flew around unmolested... they weren't strafed the second they left... or started to be built... at the factory... truth is... there might be a couple dozen dee 9's to that actually "saw combat" in the conventional sense.... If a jap plane woulda straffed vf 19's carrier then I guess the bearcat woulda "seen combat... hardly much of a distinction for inclusion inthe game.
lazs
Well, if you're considering "strafed on carrier" as enough to qualify then "bombed in factory" should qualify as well. Just think of the Dora numbers then.
Yes, yes, I know what you meant, but 650-700 Dora's saw frontline service. First flight was in late 1942, and the Luftwaffe took first delivery in August 1944. THAT qualifies the Dora as a WWII fighter.
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Puuuurdy ....
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If you can make a case for adding the F8F, than you can make an equally good case for adding the P-51H :)
The FM2 isn't really an early-war plane either since it didn't enter production until mid 1943 or see action until January 1944, making it a contemporary of the P-51B.
While I agree that the early planes should have a separate place to be flown free from the later models, I also realize that such a place would still have the problems associated with the MA (ganging, running, etc). A P-40E isn't going to dogfight with a Zero any more than a P-51D is going to dogfight an N1K2.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Karnak
The Spitfire Mk XIV already meets you're requirements lazs. It can't run so it has to fight.
It can run. Maybe you're running in the wrong direction.
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well... in WB they came up with a "generations" idea. the rps they had was not so much year of introduction... which causes a LOT of controversy... but, it was based on "ability"... parity so to speak. this also added contoversy.
I believe that my area arena concept would work and the way to decide what planes went in what arena would have to do with top speed. you could define "early war" by the top speed. The FM2 would make the cut but not the 51b The FM2 could easily be a substitute for the f4f-3.. the -3 actually performed slightly better. Add the dash 3.
If you get planes in the same area with the same top speeds you will have a lot of parity.
why do we perk the 262? a pee 51 or dee 9 can easily "dodge" it and... the 262 was in service the same time as the 51 or dee 9.... even earlier depending on how ya figure.
really... those who see no problem with pee 51's and dee 9's in the same arena as spit ones and wildcats.... how do you justify perking any plane, much less the 262?
lazs
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if people feel like running from a fight then returning when the person they want dead is busy with something else they can but if that person is in a early war plane they better not be hoping for a easy kill...earlky war planes are great for dogfighting late war planes are good for bnz and E fighting...whatever that is...sped a little time with the 262 in a full dogfight enviroment youll find yourself outclassed by people in hurri2c's yaks and even a6m2's
in the MA its and i qoute "about speed and altitude not abpout guns or turnability or low stall speeds and good compression recovery"
late war planes normally have fairly high stall speeds (110-120) while early war planes can have as low a stall sped as 80 normally 90-100...wich is good if you can suckera person in a "uber" late war plane into a proper dogfight rather than passes...
take a look at p51's armament 4 .50 caliber mgs look at 262's 2 20mm cannons (hard to aim) and possibly some 30mm's even harder (cant quite remember)
now take a look at earlier war planes
mostly a combo of lots of low caliber mg's and 20mm cannons combined with greater manouverability lower stall speeds and bigger guns
early war planes are usable you just have to know HOW to use them successfully in the MA's enviroment
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Originally posted by vorticon
take a look at p51's armament 4 .50 caliber mgs look at 262's 2 20mm cannons (hard to aim) and possibly some 30mm's even harder (cant quite remember)
Ummm, last time I looked, the P-51 had six .50 caliber machine guns, and the Me-262 had four 30mm Mk108 cannons (except for the night-fighter variants, which only had two).
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You're both right actually. The P51b has 4, the P51D has 6.
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Originally posted by Apache
You're both right actually. The P51b has 4, the P51D has 6.
Yeah, but the mk1a had 4 20mm Hissy's.
I'd like one BTW.
F.
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I want a DO 335.
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actually with 4 30mm's that makes it worse since those german cannons are a real beotch to aim
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Does anyone remember the good old sim, Aces of The Pacific? Well, they had an add-on, - AOTP 1946. A what-if campaign based on the idea that there was no nuking and the US invaded Japan. So you had the Bearcat and the Tigercat as well as the US first Jet (Shooting Star) and on the Japanese side you had the first Jap jet (Pretty much like a 262) as well as a funny plane with a push propeller, - can't really remember what it was called.
In my opinion that would be the scenario for those planes, but not the MA. Neither the Bearcat nor the Tigercat fired their guns in anger in WW2.
And what BS is this about the Dora? The Dora saw a lot of action, and the Ta-152 saw some as well. There is no question about that.
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Originally posted by Angus
So you had the Bearcat and the Tigercat as well as the US first Jet (Shooting Star) and on the Japanese side you had the first Jap jet (Pretty much like a 262) as well as a funny plane with a push propeller, - can't really remember what it was called.
The Kyushu J7W1 Shinden (http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/aero/aircraft/kyushu_j7w1.htm), a canard pusher interceptor. Only two were made; one was destroyed in the bombing of the Mitsubishi factory, the other is at the Garber facility in Silver Springs (if it hasn't been moved to the new facility next to Dulles yet).
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Here's a thought:
Once AH 2 arrives, turn AH 1 into "SWOTL" - type game.
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Originally posted by AtmkRstr
It can run. Maybe you're running in the wrong direction.
The Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, Typhoon, La-7 and P-51D are all faster than the Spitfire Mk XIV at AH combat altitudes.
Sure, you can burn your short fuel load cruising around at 25,000+ feet and be able to outrun most anything you might meet. I've done this plenty of times. However, it is boring.
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Bring the Ta-183 to the AH. That's the coolest looking plane ever :D
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vorticon.. it's not a matter of "useful" in a "you cant' use em in the arena at all" way... I do pretty well against late war planes.. It' s a matter of fun. To me, if they aren't fun then they aren't "useful in what is..... a game.. The early war planes would be more fun if they could be segregated from the late war cherry pickers and the late war would be more fun with a bearcat.
lazs