Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on March 16, 2003, 01:58:02 PM
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23 yr old woman from Olympia Washington killed in gaza strip refusing to get out of way of Isreali bulldozer demolishing houses in gaza strip. Im sorry to hear of it. I hope her life was worth it.
Bottom line: Bulldozer wins every time.
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darwin kicks bellybutton again.
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Perhaps bulldozing people's houses and shops will stop them strapping explosives to themselves. But I doubt it.
GIVE 'EM A STATE!
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the news should say "human shield fails to stop bulldozer"
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WTG Israel! This nearly as good news as that that fella in Genoa!
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Grandstanding and then dancing in the streets at a 23 year old girl's death.
Now where have I seen that before...
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Originally posted by Dowding
Perhaps bulldozing people's houses and shops will stop them strapping explosives to themselves. But I doubt it.
GIVE 'EM A STATE!
You saw that grandstanding right here Dowding. :rolleyes:
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Not at all. I believe the girl actually had a problem with the bulldozers smashing houses, and I don't doubt she would agree with my assertion. Tell me why were the bulldozer's there?
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typical american.. she's trying to protect somebody elses home, pays for it with her life. misplaced courage? sure. brave? obviously.
i may be an ugly hateful american.. i may detest the circumstances. i may hate the players. but i do respect the gesture.. and i'm proud of her.
the fact she's dead is still darwinisim.
perhaps we are all about to die out.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Not at all. I believe the girl actually had a problem with the bulldozers smashing houses, and I don't doubt she would agree with my assertion. Tell me why were the bulldozer's there?
Dowding,
That is not my job or responsibility. If you want to know whay the bulldozer was there go ask the people who own it. I wasn't there and do not own the dozer. I also was just pointing out your moral ground was the same grave you criticised others for trampling. Only point I was trying to make. Don't read any more into it than that or at least take authorship for whatever you think I was trying to say.
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Originally posted by john9001
the news should say "human shield fails to stop bulldozer"
may be news should say . "serving to ideology is wasting life"
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I don't know where I said you had anything to do with the incident.
Read into the issues behind the bulldozers. This wasn't an unfortunate building site accident and I assumed it was common knowledge what was going on over there.
I agree, Hangtime. I detest the leadership of both sides in the conflict, and the extremists that support them.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
perhaps we are all about to die out.
LOL thats only 1 thing i can realy promise you.... we will die and we will be forgoten ... you can be pretty sure :cool:
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Dowding,
Again another clarification. I did not post on the situation regarding the buldozers presence use or ownership in the original post. I simply pointed out that the grandstanding you referred to, involved you as well. Again do NOT read any more into it than that. Your high moral ground was the same grave you gave umbrage for others dancing on. Did they take up your space or what?
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http://www.n-tv.de/3146593.html
Some people really have no brain, bet she was a communist activist.
Anyway, she supported terrorists and she knew very well how israel deals with terrorists, their families and their supporters.
Hope that happens to them saddam supporters in Bagdad too.
Glad there's one threat less.
Regards Blitz
'Menschliche Schutzschilde'- ridiculous, they are communist propaganda victims at best
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To kill all palestenians of course... :rolleyes:
Funny thing is I fully 100% support a palestenian state, a real full fledged no BS state, not criscrossed with israeli checkpoints, with gross reduction of settlements or even outright removal, shared control of Jerusalem and water rights and everything neccesarry for a functinal independeant state- I think thats the only real solution and in the large picture the palestenians deserve this and desreve an opportunty work on their own country.
However I dont think the palestenian society and their current political attitudes and fantasies of israels destruction make this a possibility. Everything I have read or heard is that the "unoffical" palestenian govt., hamas, islamic jihad etc. will never support peace will never support an end to the dream of israeli destruction. And it now seems that the arafat govt is either unable or unwilling - both perhaps equally bad imho - to control this people and thats with the goodwill assumption that he doesnt directly support them inn the first place. Unless the palestenians in general give up this israel into the sea fantasy BS, both oficially and in their hearts, they will never get a real legitimate 100% independeant state, and frankly I dont see why or even practically how Israel could agree to it under those conditions.
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posted by eagleCZ
we will die and we will be forgoten
you first, sputnick boy.
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Originally posted by Yeager
23 yr old woman from Olympia Washington killed in gaza strip refusing to get out of way of Isreali bulldozer demolishing houses in gaza strip. Im sorry to hear of it. I hope her life was worth it.
Bottom line: Bulldozer wins every time.
And then Grunherz goes WAY TO GO ISRAEL!
Pathetic.
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
...fantasies of israels destruction...
Originally posted by Yeager
23 yr old woman from Olympia Washington killed in gaza strip refusing to get out of way of Isreali bulldozer demolishing houses in gaza strip[/i].
Fantasies of destruction? Their homes are being demolished you fool.
Tell me, if a person in the USA gets in the way of a demolition, do the US workers just run over her? They get her out first, by force.
Israelis just RUN OVER THEM.
And the Palestinians just have fantasies of destruction. LOL
Ditto what Hangtime said.
That girl should have known better what the Israelis are. Even she underestimated their apetite for conquest and destruction, and paid with her life, foolishly.
Darwin, because she should have known better.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
you first, sputnick boy.
lol does it matter ?
but if you are about to do it your self, im about to welcome you in my lill country
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I think what israel did was the right thing to do.
Get out of the way or else.
She didn't and now she is dead, this will stop any other protestors.
Wonder if the woman that died ever thought about protesting against the suicide bombers who kill innocent iraelis.
Come ot think about it, I bet she protested against the terrorists of 9/11, wonder if she knew that suicide bombers and 9/11 are similar?
Nice work israel.
CB
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Originally posted by Cherlie
I think what israel did was the right thing to do.
Get out of the way or else.
She didn't and now she is dead, this will stop any other protestors.
Wonder if the woman that died ever thought about protesting against the suicide bombers who kill innocent iraelis.
Come ot think about it, I bet she protested against the terrorists of 9/11, wonder if she knew that suicide bombers and 9/11 are similar?
Nice work israel.
CB
"Get our of my way or else"
Awesome philosophy.
I cant believe some of the people here...
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Originally posted by Cherlie
I think what israel did was the right thing to do.
Get out of the way or else.
She didn't and now she is dead, this will stop any other protestors.
Wonder if the woman that died ever thought about protesting against the suicide bombers who kill innocent iraelis.
Come ot think about it, I bet she protested against the terrorists of 9/11, wonder if she knew that suicide bombers and 9/11 are similar?
Nice work israel.
CB
Sad, but you're right Cherlie, let's get some more communist prettythanges, they know very well they shouldn't stay in our way :D
Regards Blitz
America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous
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If you read the article, the bulldozer was in the act of destroying someone's home, what the Israelis are saying the combat zone.
They are putting everyone in danger, the Palestinians, themselves, our forces, by intentionally placing themselves in a combat zone
It's like protestors standing infront of Iraqi's shielding them from the evil amrika forces......
As the bulldozer lifted a pile of earth, it moved forward and captured Corrie under its blade, Dale said.
and I am meant to feel sorry for that idiot behaviour?
Right ok
CB
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you think something like this would make people wake up and realize just how radical the isreali government is.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
you think something like this would make people wake up and realize just how radical the isreali government is.
Or maybe they are just tired of thier families and children being blown into little pieces.
You stupid SOBs need this in your backyard a little bit.
See how fast you STFU and take actions.
Oh wait your french, you will just bend over and grab your ankles.
I am sooooooo glad Mr. Bush has some balls.
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Or maybe they are just tired of thier families and children being blown into little pieces.
You stupid SOBs need this in your backyard a little bit.
See how fast you STFU and take actions.
Some of us do come from countries where family and friends getting blown into little pieces was a threat. Where our armed forces were not allowed to wear their uniform off-duty in case of attack.
So piss off with your lecturing, you ignoramus.
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I've just as much sympathy as I would for someone protesting gas guzzling SUVs by lying down in the middle of the interstate, or someone trying to stop terrorism by hugging suicide bombers.
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Originally posted by Fatty
I've just as much sympathy as I would for someone protesting gas guzzling SUVs by lying down in the middle of the interstate, or someone trying to stop terrorism by hugging suicide bombers.
No surprice fatty :D
Regards Blitz
America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous
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Animal:
The very simple fact is that hamas and the others have said many times that they will never reconize israel and that they will drive israel into the sea and destroy it. That is a fantasy, an unrealistic premise considering the way the real world is - in other words that will never happend.
And unless the Palestenians renounce that fantasy, in writing and in their hearts, then nothing will come out of their desire for true independant statehood; mind you, a desire that I fully support.
And you know what you cant compare the palestenian fantasy of destryoing israel with the fact that israeils are bulldozing the homes of know terrorists in retribution for attacks on civians. You know why not animal? Because in thec real world Israel has the capacity to kill every single palestenian, they have the capacity to drive gaza into the mediterranian sea and the west bank into the jordan river - but they choose not to. They do not harbor maniacial cultural fanatasies of wiping out the arabs.
So please dont moaralize too much about Israeli bulldozers.
As for the idiot who got crushed well thats her problem, I bet she had no moral concerns when she and here leftist buddies were tearing down businesses and shopes in seattle, genoa, prague, toroto and all the other cities terrorized by hateful ignorant west hating communist degenerates. She got what she deserved by tring to get infront of of one of those armored israeil combat dozers in a combat type situation, thats her problem and her choice to die.
At least she was brave and actually acted, I will give here a big for that, not like those popsicle human shields in iraq who ran away when iraq sugggested they even get neat likely bombing targets instead of the orphanages or hosptals they soiled by their presence in iraq up to that time...
So as you can see, I have mixed emotions about this woman. On hand I am overjoyed by her demise and feel she desrerved it. But upon reflection, I also admire her sacrifice and bravery. In either case I hope many many more follow her example, for then the world will certainly be a better place.
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Originally posted by Dowding
GIVE 'EM A STATE!
They don't want a state..They just want the destruction of Isreal.
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Right now they want a state that includes israel, and that aint gonna happend.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Right now they want a state that includes israel, and that aint gonna happend.
Donīt be so unjustic, their quite happy if they Get Jerusalem.
Why dont they ask for the moon as well?
crabofix
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Saw this 23 year old girl interviewed on Fox. Someone filled her head full of B. S. She may have died to try to save furniture! Her life and efforts were misguided by someone. She was such a child,sadly. Shame on those who put her in this most idiotic position. Of course the brainwashers never put themsleves in such a position. It is their job to fill the young and the innocent with a bunch of B .S.! How else do they get teenagers to strap on bombs!!
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Good point OZ, I hope the little toejams take up scuide bombing next... :)
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or sniping doser drivers.
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This child was what I envision as a "valley girl", a child who believed that she was doing "the right thing". Her idealism met reality and reality won, and the world lost someone who should have been enjoying her youth and planning a bright future. Evil trapped her and filled her mind with a bunch of B. S. and condemned her to death!
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Man you guys have a lopsided idea of what is going on down there. It is truely sad. Truely sad.
Unfortunately for the hormone challenged Conservatives the situation is vastly more complicated than:
Israelis = Good
Palistinians = Bad
or
Palistinians = Good
Israelis = Bad
I know you guys like to see the world in those adolecent, simplistic terms, but it isn't that simple.
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Proud Americans dancing on the grave of a fellow citizen.
:rolleyes: :confused: :eek:
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Even our friendly ChiCom allies would not have run over that woman with a tank.
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Yes they would have and did in Tiananmen Square....
Plus the buldozer driver did not see her, she was under his raised blade and the israeli combat bulldozer which are armored and have bulletproof glass panes have very limited visiblity. She didnt get out of the way of bulldozer and she died, nothing else to it. In fact being with a gang of degenerate protestors only hurt her because the driver took no special notice of her friends weaving at him to stop - as they have been doing for hours at this and other combat areas before.
And another thing. I saw a picture of this dgenerate wearing the traditinal islam requred headress for women - all of us know that this womyn would be the first to protest against sexism or strict male/female dresscodes in the USA but all of a sudden she supports it if its carried out by the repessed ethnic group of the week. What a hypocrite.
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"Mr Dent," he said.
"Hello? Yes?" said Arthur.
"Some factual information for you. Have you any idea how much damage that bulldozer would suffer if I just let it roll straight over you?"
"How much?" said Arthur.
"None at all," said Mr. Prosser, and stormed nervously off wondering why his brain was filled with a thousand hairy horsemen all shouting at him.
- Chapter One of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy,"
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Originally posted by SirLoin
They don't want a state..They just want the destruction of Isreal.
I knew there was someone on this BBS that sees a little more than CNN.
Dowding/Weazel/Et all:
Given the choice between the two - which do you think the average Palestinian would choose?
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It doesnt matter saur.
The real issue is that influential palesteinan leadership symbols like hamas see the two as one and the same. And until that changes there will be no peace and no viable independant palestenian state.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes they would have and did in Tiananmen Square....
Plus the buldozer driver did not see her, she was under his raised blade and the israeli combat bulldozer which are armored and have bulletproof glass panes have very limited visiblity. She didnt get out of the way of bulldozer and she died, nothing else to it. In fact being with a gang of degenerate protestors only hurt her because the driver took no special notice of her friends weaving at him to stop - as they have been doing for hours at this and other combat areas before.
And another thing. I saw a picture of this dgenerate wearing the traditinal islam requred headress for women - all of us know that this womyn would be the first to protest against sexism or strict male/female dresscodes in the USA but all of a sudden she supports it if its carried out by the repessed ethnic group of the week. What a hypocrite.
I hope you get a chance to see the interview with this child. She has been brainwashed by the evil ones who hide in the shadows and destroy anything that would mean progress toward peace. These evil ones twist the world of the innocent toward evil and rejoice in their deaths. The evil ones appittite for more youth death will never be appeased!
So I ask you to give this young girl a break and target your feelings to the evil ones who destroyed this young girls mind and condemned her to death! They are the ones who need the light shined on them so the whole world can see them for what they are, pure evil!
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She is 23 years old and came there willingly on her own accord, she was not kidnapped. OZ dont think she was mislead by the palestenians as much as she was by leftist usa hating degenearates at home,
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Palestinians really need their own state. I don't see why we couldn't just let them have the Sinai peninsula. Yes, it's a godforsaken nasty assed land, but hey, no one else is using it.
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Brainwashed my ass.
She was there because she wanted to. She paid for her naivety and recklesness with her life, and she did not achieve a damn thing.
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i'm guessing she was a blonde.
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Ouch, that was an expensive lesson in natural science, reminds me of that great line from the simpsons, "Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons" .
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"She was raising her hands and yelling at the bulldozer driver to stop," Arraf said. "The bulldozer driver paid no attention. ... He buried Rachel with dirt, which ended up, obviously, knocking her down. Then he ran over her, and then reversed and ran over her again."
:eek:
lol, whoopee.
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To encorage suicide bombers Sadam Huisien pays their families 25k US when they blow themselves up. Big rise in suicide bomebrs. (he has paid out millions in this way)So to discourage them the isrealies adopted a policy of destroying their families houses after they blow themselves up murdering isrealies.
Would that woman stand in front of a suicide bomber and sacrifice herself to stop them? Would the suicide bomber care?
silly silly silly double standards on this board.
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Yes I feel that issue hasn been brough up enough as it should, lets have no BS about it, this woman was volunteering to protect the homes of suicide bombers and their coordinators.
Let me say that again, this woman was volunterily pretecting the property of men who had just carried out deliberate terror attacks against civilans. Men who had just blown up busses full of school kids and old women.
That is indefensible and just plain disguisting when you pose around as a peace activits...
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I sympathize with the girls family, I hope they cope well with their loss.
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Yes I feel that issue hasn been brough up enough as it should, lets have no BS about it, this woman was volunteering to protect the homes of suicide bombers and their coordinators.
Let me say that again, this woman was volunterily pretecting the property of men who had just carried out deliberate terror attacks against civilans. Men who had just blown up busses full of school kids and old women.
No, she was protecting the house of a Palestinian doctor, who happened to live a few hundred meters from the Egyptian border. The IDF decided to widen the dead zone around the border, so were busy demolishing houses (without compensation, of course).
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Whether the young lady was asking for it or not, it was absolutely heartless to run her over. I saw this kid on television. If she weighed 110 lbs, it would be a lot. Anyone could have taken her by the arm and escorted her away. Israel could have simply deported her back to the USA.
This was a very poor decision, and is not going to help Israel's public image at all. They had better lop off a few heads over this.
Gump was right, "stupid is as stupid does." In this case, the people involved were just as stupid as the girl, and criminal at the least.
For those of you who think she had it coming, would you still think so if she were your kid? Misguided, probably. Since when is being misguided a capital offence?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
She is 23 years old and came there willingly on her own accord, she was not kidnapped. OZ dont think she was mislead by the palestenians as much as she was by leftist usa hating degenearates at home,
Ya, you are prolly right regarding where she became brainwashed. Bet ya she was attending one of our universities before her trip to Isreal:(
Seems like the universities only teach the dark side of life these days.
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This was a very poor decision, and is not going to help Israel's public image at all
Well, obviously to some people on this board Isreal has even raised in reputation.
It's a damn shame that Isreals gets away with all kinds of violations against humanity and even get cheered at. It's a shame to their ancestors that went through hell.
Well, sometimes the victim becomes the perpetrator...
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Proud Americans dancing on the grave of a fellow citizen.
"..."
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I saw a picture of her burning an American flag in front of a bunch of Palestinians.
Instant karma's a squeak.
See ya!
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Originally posted by koala
I saw a picture of her burning an American flag in front of a bunch of Palestinians.
Instant karma's a squeak.
See ya!
Where?
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Sad.
Pathetic.
Notice the "Skulls" mounted on top of the blade....Guess she wasn't the first person he's run over.
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Sick bastards.
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The bastards are the ones that filled this child's head full of B. S. and encouraged her to act!
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So the driver of that dozer has no personal responsibility?
How about his superiors?
Instead, you blame some vague 'them' entity. Let me guess, they are liberals? Clinton-worshippers? Tree huggers?
Don't blame the Israeli, what ever you do!
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I blame her, she was a responsible adult who repeatedly placed herself in high stress combat situations and the odds simply caught up to her one way or another.
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You make it sound like she caught a stray bullet in the middle of sniper alley in Sarejevo. Or she received shrapnel wounds from shelling in the middle of a warzone.
She was deliberately run over by a bulldozer. Not a speeding tank with narrow vision slits or periscope. A shrecking bulldozer with a glass cabin.
The US is right to demand a full investigation.
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Originally posted by Dowding
The US is right to demand a full investigation.
What is there to investigate?
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What is there to investigate?
Those damn women throwing themselves in front of the holy dozers of the above reproach Israeli state, of course!
I expect that American bull dozers will be used to demolish the house of the girl's parents as a warning to all young women to stop them damaging Israeli state property with their bones or increasing the overtime expediture of the IDF which will now have to clean her blood from the dozer blade.
That'll show 'em!
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Reports i read state she fell down first which might have given the driver cause to think she'd moved out of his path.
Either way an investigation is warranted.
And lets not forget she was an adult responsible for her actions. And that people do get killed accidentaly on construction sies all the time, unless this particular driver is found to be a psycho or a pattern emerges of these human shields getting offed by the idf then it could just have been a freak accident.
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No, seriously.
The way I've understood it happened:
She was in front of the bulldozer, between the bulldozer and its target.
For some reason she did not move out of the way.
The bulldozer ran over her.
I think everyone (Israelis, US, Pals) agree on that version.
Then there are some that say that she fell, that the driver didnt see her, that the driver did see her etc etc.
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Therefore, the fact that there is no clear version of events means an investigation is neccessary.
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Why?
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In a civilised country, the body of an unarmed girl is not considered suitable material for the footings of a new building, road or parking lot.
Seriously, I'm sure her parents would like to know what really happened.
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Alright alright, so investigate.
Dowding, I'd like your opinion on my peace plan for Israel/Palestine.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Sad.
Pathetic.
Notice the "Skulls" mounted on top of the blade....Guess she wasn't the first person he's run over.
Those "skulls" you say, seem to be connected in the dozer blade function mechanism...
I'd suggest new eye glasses
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They were showing one of those bulldozers on the TV a couple of days ago. Its armoured like a tank, including littlevision slits. When I saw it I wondered how the driver could see where the hell he's going.
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Politics aside.
What kind of a man runs over a woman with a bulldozer???
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml
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Originally posted by Widewing
Whether the young lady was asking for it or not, it was absolutely heartless to run her over. I saw this kid on television. If she weighed 110 lbs, it would be a lot. Anyone could have taken her by the arm and escorted her away. Israel could have simply deported her back to the USA.
This was a very poor decision, and is not going to help Israel's public image at all. They had better lop off a few heads over this.
Gump was right, "stupid is as stupid does." In this case, the people involved were just as stupid as the girl, and criminal at the least.
For those of you who think she had it coming, would you still think so if she were your kid? Misguided, probably. Since when is being misguided a capital offence?
As I understand it Widewing, this was an armoured bulldozer, with views not unlike a tank. The driver did not see her.
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I saw some news footage of her speaking, she was nearly foaming at the mouth, reminded me of a Bader-Meinhof guerilla from the 1970's in Germany. It's seems that flag-burning pic of her in the other thread was accurate characterization. Every time I accumulate a bit of sympathy for the Palestinians, along comes one of their friends or more colorful compatriots to move me back toward the Israeli side. Maybe the time has come for Israel to just set up a defensible border and wall it off in a secure manner. Just forget trying to deal with those on the other side.
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Who cares what kind of a bulldozer it was, and whether or not he saw her. A nation doesn't deviate from it's course of action because some moron feels they have the right to make policy.
Protest all you want. Try to change policy through the proper channels. Stand in front of a bulldozer, expect to get squashed.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Protest all you want. Try to change policy through the proper channels. Stand in front of a bulldozer, expect to get squashed.
How quickly we forget about Ghandi and that peacefull demonstrations are the only effective and meaningfull protests.
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g; you seem to be enjoying yourself immensely with those photos.
why doncha try jerkin yerself off with those pics for awile.
they ain't doing anything for us.
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Some guys disrespects all what's been fighting for in WO2
Freedom of speech and relegion.
Under the barbaric nazi regime such things was everyday buisness.
Sad some people think so straight.
Why not kick an old wo2 war veteran.
Having another opinion doesn't mean u have to die.
She wasn't a murdering terrorist
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There seems to be a huge misunderstanding about Freedom Of Speech.
Yes, it absolutely means you get to voice your opinion about things.
It DOES NOT mean that after that no one else gets to voice THEIR opinion about the opinion you just voiced.
You want to criticize? Fine. Just don't get all upset when someone else criticizes you. Free Speech works both ways.
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Idiot verses bulldozer New flash Bulldozer wins.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Hangtime, that says a lot more about you than it does me.
FYI that picture was on the front page of Norwegian newspapers under the headline "Here the American demonstrator gets crushed by Israeli military bulldozer!" for all to see. The truth hurts don't it?
it says i'm sick and tired of seeing images of dead american women and kids, amazinhunk.
shall i put up pics of slaughtered norwegians?
whatever the reason for her death. the fact is enough. you don't need to assail us with the pictures over and over, spreading them from thread to thread.
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I say let the Palestinians and Isrealis finish each other off, then the middle east will be very much quite.
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Wait just a minute here. We don't know what happened . It could have been an accident...
its dangerous to play around in a construction area - and this could have been going on for hours. She could have been walking backwards and fell without the driver seeing it.
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Hey Gscholz you are bieung a pice of toejam in this thread. Why dont post some picture of israeil busses or night clubs?
Whats that? No? You cant find any? I bet that doesnt fit into your prejudices of Isreail being evil and the palestenians being little angels needing protection by young rich western salamander radicals.
I never imagined i'd say this seriously to anyone but i think you are letting you anti-semetism show through loud an clear. Thats incresingly becoming the only possibilty as you simply refuse to even consider it was an accident or that the palestenians arent guity too.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
How quickly we forget about Ghandi and that peacefull demonstrations are the only effective and meaningfull protests.
Agreed... and had the PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. been following civil disobedience rather than suicide bombing pizza parlors and city busses, they would be celebrating the 20th anniversary of an independent Palestine.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Sad.
Pathetic.
Notice the "Skulls" mounted on top of the blade....Guess she wasn't the first person he's run over.
Look closely. For those of you who know nothing of heavy equipment, those "skulls" are the hydraulic rams that raise and lower the blade. The shadows may make them look like skulls to those who do not know better.
Also notice that there are two entirely different bulldozers and two different treelines on the horizon. Not to mention the terrain is different, more different than a couple of passes with a bulldozer can account for.
Oh, and one more thing. Those photos were part of a PLA support group handout, and there were posted on palsolidarity.org. Care to speculate on what the "pal" stands for? Try getting your photos and "eyewitness accounts" from something just a little more reliable than propaganda sites.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Tell me again how the driver didn't see her?
As I stated elsewhere in this thread (right above), those photos were taken from a PLA handout, and posted on palsolidarity.org. Try getting your information from a NEWS agency as opposed to a website with an AGENDA to promote.
Also take a look at what I posted about several things being wrong with the photos.
Nevermind the fact that if there was a camera being used to take pictures before and after, why are there no pictures of the incident itself? Because I doubt there are any pictures that support their version of what happened.
I would condem a verified incident of an IDF soldier intentionally killing an innocent person. However, to expect the IDF to expose their soldiers to a possible attack because some misinformed individual is attempting to stop them from carrying out their orders is a little stupid.
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nevermind...
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My mother taught me not to lie down in front of heavy equipment. Blame her parents.
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Originally posted by GScholz
http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=50670
VG is Norways largest ... or second largest newspaper.
Foto: REUTERS
Yes, but the problem is that unfortunately BOTH got the photos and the story from the aforementioned PLA handout. Unusually poor reporting on the part of Reuters, usually quite reliable. Regarding the Norwegian newspaper I have no previous experience with it. Nonetheless, the ORIGINAL account and photos they are using/quoting came first in the PLA handout, and then from palsolidarity.org (which gave credit for the photos and account to the PLA handout), not from a reliable news source. Again, poor reporting. Just goes to show that even Reuters can be guilty of bad journalism. Even in high school journalism class they teach you not to get all your information from one side with an agenda. One of the first rules of journalism.
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Thats what i have arguning the whole day gscholz. From the first written reports I read of this incident it has been made clear that she was on the ground before the dozer hit her. I have seen these israeli combat dozers before and know what limited visbility they had and that combined with the fact that now we know she was on the ground, tripped or worse deliberately sitting down, I had a strong suspicion it was likely an accident where the driver simply lost sight of her.
It didnt help that the palestenian PLO propaganda pictures given to us clumsily tried to make it seem that she was standing up and visible to the driver all the time which contradicted all written reports.
Glad to see you have escaped their propaganda trap gscholz. How bout you go talk to dowding now? :)
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an unarmed american citizen is murdered in another country and all you people can do is say "good riddens"? half of you must be born agains and the other half must be complete and utter b@stards.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
an unarmed american citizen is murdered in another country and all you people can do is say "good riddens"? half of you must be born agains and the other half must be complete and utter b@stards.
When I was in high school, one of my friends ran over and killed an old lady standing in the road. It wasn't murder. It wasn't any crime at all.
This girl CHOSE to lay down in front of a bull dozer. IN FRONT OF A FREAKING BULLDOZER!
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okay, the driver knew she was there. last time i checked that is murder and not an accident. if this turns out it be such a thing(i doubt it will get a proper investigation) then it wont bother me as much.
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Before I spout off, are there penalties for laying in front of a bulldozer? I mean besides getting squashed.
First, I'm not the least bit sympathetic for anyone that does that, but could she have been hauled off and jailed? She was doing it out of free will.
If there aren't, there should be.
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I generally try to remember that you aren't actually the heartless, mindless miserable excuses for human beings that some of you enjoy portraying on this BBS. Most days I am actually successfull...
kbman
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Lets investigate:
Woman lays in front of military vehicle, which is doing military operation in warzone. Women dies.
Conclusion, she committed suicide, plain and simple.
Please tell me any, ANY real world alternative how to NOT run over a "protestor" in such situation? Aborting mission? Do you normally abort military missions in such "I want my opinion forced" situations?
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I don't understand this part of the statement:
"When the bulldozer refused to stop or turn aside she climbed up onto the mound of dirt and rubble being gathered in front of it wearing a fluorescent jacket to look directly at the driver who kept on advancing. The bulldozer continued to advance so that she was pulled under the pile of dirt and rubble. After she had disappeared from view the driver kept advancing until the bulldozer was completely on top of her. The driver did not lift the bulldozer blade and so she was crushed beneath it. Then the driver backed up - effectively running over her again. The seven other ISM activists taking part in the action rushed to dig out her body. An ambulance rushed her to Al-Najar Hospital where she died"
If she was on a mound of dirt and the blade was not lifted, wouldn't she be rolled forward or fall over the blade. And from where shes standing in the photos looks like shes off the left of the dozer. My guess is she was out of the way, the dozer moved the earth, she lost her footing a slipped under and the driver missed it.
Next time your at a building site look at the warning signs, then think of what she did. She played with fire and got burn't. Darwin kicks arse again.
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She was brave enough to travel to a far away land and put aside all fear to stand up for what she thought was right, and she paid the price.
I may not agree with her political views, but at least she went there and tried to make a difference. And that's alot more than alot of us can say.
I'll say this, if there is a God, she is in good standing. May she rest in peace.
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you hartless monsters :(
she did not had to die cause of a other opinion she had, and shes prolly somones daughter aswell.
Cant be that hard to move 1 single demonstrant outta the way, but guess its easyer to run them over with a bulldozer.
I dont care if she was a leftwing fanatic or right wing for that sake, it is not a solution to kill them like that.
darwinism my ass, straight forward murder it was. :(
and when some of you say thats ok I get scared of the easy way of thinking some have.
is this ok :
Edit : "picture removed "
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Originally posted by air_guard
and shes prolly somones daughter aswell.
Well, I'll have to concede that point.
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Those photos are misleading, notice that it isn't even the same bulldozer in the second photo, or the same road . What she was doing was not peacefull protest, she was physically intervening, in a sense she was using her own life and phsycal safety as leverage to impose her will . Sort of her own hostage . Not unlike the crazy squeak girlfriend line, "if you break up with me I'll kill myself".
If it was an actually amored earth mover as credible sources say it was then it looked like this .
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m9-earth_mover.jpg)
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BTW air-guard, I notice that you cut the top half of the second photo off, why did you do that ?
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I believe what we're looking at is one of these (notice its the same blade shown in the 2nd, cut off, picture, and appears to be a modified variant of the top picture):
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Suave - they are exactly the same bull dozer in both photos, and definitely not the armoured bulldozer in your picture.
The only reservation I have is with the treeline - but there is a movement of POV from the first to the second photo that might account for that.
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I wouldn't sit down in front of either one .
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I have not cutted anything just used the "img" option to post a picture from a local newspaper:
http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=50670
1. question for you suave ?
Are you really that paranoid that you think i "fix" a phote to make myselve right ?
I dont need to do that because i was only talking about what i feel vs this tragedy, and nobody can change the fact that I still am me :)
just to clear up a few things.
I dont support the palestinian hamas either, actually I support the Isralies struggling to fite terror.
But this was a wrong way to do it (my opinion tough)
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Is this pict clearer ?
follow the link
http://sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2003/03/17/mn_bulldozer.jpg
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I'm sorry but do we really need alot of pictures of dead girls in this forum? Anyone who wants to see those pictures shouldnt have any problem finding them someplace else.
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hortlund mabye somone just need to show that we are not talking about a "thing" here but a human beeing ?
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You think no one understood that before there were pictures posted here? The idea is absurd.
Whats next, we cant talk about the Columbia disaster without having pictures of some dead astronaut? We cant talk about ww2 without pictures of dead soldiers?
I would ask you all to edit your posts and remove the pictures of dead people.
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Originally posted by air_guard
I have not cutted anything just used the "img" option to post a picture from a local newspaper:
http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=50670
1. question for you suave ?
Are you really that paranoid that you think i "fix" a phote to make myselve right ?
Ok your local newspaper "fix" the photo, not you. Those photos were arllready posted on the first page of this thread. They were made to look like it was a chronological arrangement, but if you look at the 1rst and the 2nd photo carefully you can see that they are too different, as you can see from the one that straffo posted .
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well what do I know dead is dead, those pics dont lie.
They might be cutted to fit in the story i guess.
you really mean that hortlund ?
I sincerly think that alot of people really have not been thinking about that somone actually died after what i read.
And I guess i wont, unless I have to.
And about the colombia accident, that is irrelevant for this discussion it really cant be compared.
That was a terrible accident, this was not.
your a smart man you should be able to figure out that by yourselve ;)
edit: in second tough i will remove them, it is not a nice thing to see.
I better trust peoples brains to think themselve.
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those "skulls" on the dozer blade are photoshopped on looks like
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that picture completely contradicts the story. She was supposed to have been suffocated under a mound of sand?
Yet it looks like the dozer ran over her. More like she either fell under the tracks when the earth was disturbed, or she got physically caught by the tracks.
Its no different than some handsomehunk playing in a construction site and getting arsed by crane or something. handsomehunk is handsomehunk. And that handsomehunk is dead.
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skull ?
who said skull ?
http://zickers.free.fr/komik/d_amour_et_d_os_frais.mpe
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I nomanate here for this years Darwin awards.
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I look at it this way....if you are stupid enough to stand in the way of something that can kill you then no one should be suprised when it does.
Was it her fault?
Hell Yes!
Hortlund I think pictures are important to show the handsomehunkes of this world what can happen to them.
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Originally posted by Animal
And then Grunherz goes WAY TO GO ISRAEL!
Pathetic.
Fantasies of destruction? Their homes are being demolished you fool.
Tell me, if a person in the USA gets in the way of a demolition, do the US workers just run over her? They get her out first, by force.
Israelis just RUN OVER THEM.
And the Palestinians just have fantasies of destruction. LOL
Ditto what Hangtime said.
That girl should have known better what the Israelis are. Even she underestimated their apetite for conquest and destruction, and paid with her life, foolishly.
Darwin, because she should have known better.
Even she underestimated their apetite for conquest and destruction, and paid with her life, foolishly.
Well Animal....you got the paid for her life foolishly part down pat....the other referring to conquest and destruction by the Israelis is slightly skewed imo.....spose they should just sit around and take the terror just like others wanted the US to do regarding the all powerful UN?
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Read upon it Rude. Those houses were being cleared to increase the security buffer. And their occupants were not compensated.
That would piss me off if my house was destroyed.
Last month, a whole section of shops was demolished because they were 'trading illegally'. Livelihoods gone, more occupants for the refugee camps and more recruits for the extremists.
Check out the 40 year old UN resolution for them to vacate the occupied territories. Check out your own president's call to the Israelis to stop taking Palestinian land for Israeli settles.
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this is getting really intresting.
when the student in china put himselve in front of a panzer he became a hero for the world.
when a student put fire on himselve in protest against the soviets invaded the checoslovakinan (wrong spelled i know)republic in 1968 he was a hero.
when a woman put heresevle in front of a israleli dozer she is a handsomehunk ?
why ?
Did she have the wrong ideas about the world ?
and from who is that coming.
did the chinese boy had a wrong idea about his leadership, who knows I guess he had a opinion on that.
same with the czheck boy, the russians didnt give a toejame about him but the rest of us did.
And that was the second time the czecks was left over to dictators in the 1900`s
we didnt do anything but clapping the soviets hands and say ok this is enough and no more rofl-.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Some of us do come from countries where family and friends getting blown into little pieces was a threat. Where our armed forces were not allowed to wear their uniform off-duty in case of attack.
So piss off with your lecturing, you ignoramus.
Dowding.. I served along side some Coldstream guards. I rem them telling me thy we heading to NI soon. I hope they all made it okay.
People..somebody dieing sucks... reveling in it sucks to. I'm pro Isreal but they have some issues that need to addressed.
Oh..and for the record... the Isrealies dont buldoze random homes. The take down indiv's who support have assisted or joined the organisations that they are in conflict with.
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There are hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Muslims who DO NOT take part in terrorist bombings. If given the opportunity, they and the Israelis would, eventually, iron out their differences. But Hamas and other terrorist organizations will never allow that to happen. These groups murder and intimidate not only Israelis but any Muslims foolish enough to try to work with them for the purpose of establishing peace. The terrorists do not want a homeland established next door to Israel. They want a nation built on the bones of Israel.
The "human shields" traveling to the Middle East are choosing sides in what the Israelis see as a struggle for survival. These naive idealists play into the hands of the terrorists and lend them support in their struggle.
During my stay in Israel eleven years ago one of the ladies in my group stated that "She couldn't understand why the Israelis felt that they had a right to be in Palestine."
My response was that they had to be SOMEWHERE. Why NOT here? Many of the Israeli settlers are refugees or the descendants of refugees who fled their countries for a new life free of persecution. Their attempts at establishing their own nation brought them into conflict with the Muslims of the Middle East. Many of the more implacable Muslim leaders have no inclination to allow them to stay, under any circumstances, despite that Israel occupies less than one percent of the total land area of the Middle East.
I realize I'm rambling a bit. And I also realize that there are two sides to every argument. But I think it is short-sighted and hypocritical to sit here, thousands of miles away from those events, and render judgement on Israel's motives without taking into consideration the NATURE of the enemy they face.
Three scenes linger in my memory from that trip to the Middle East:
1. A kibbutz surrounded with metal fences and barbed wire, tanks on station in berms at each end of this farming community, with children playing inside.
2. An otherwise peaceful community in northern Israel with a two story concrete tower (part of a power station, if memory serves) located near its central square. A window in the upper story was surrounded by pockmarks from hundreds of rounds of rifle shells. A sniper had secreted himself in it one night, and then opened fire on the civilians below the next morning as they went to work or to the market.
3. Elementary school children playing in a park in Tel Aviv, blissfully unaware of the fact that their teachers and bus drivers were standing guard armed with Uzis and assault weapons.
Don't you think you might be a little "stiff-necked" if you had to live under similar circumstances?
Regards, Shuckins
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well I know a little about it since i served in the UN forces in Libanon for about 12 months. (1986-87)
I was supposed to be there for 6 months but took another period aswell.
Guess i could say somthing about the arabs and somthing about the Isralies but I wont.
1 thing i can say they both want peace, well that was what i learnt over there.
And we had to work on both sides.
Learnt alot that I will not use in this forum.
edit: It is the stiff necks that wont allow peace in that region :(
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Air Guard, a buddy of mine served 6 months on the Israel-Lebanon border too.
He went there "normal" and he came back hating jews and arabs. One of his mates were killed in that failed Israeli rescue attempt when a gunboat raked the shack with .50cal fire.
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Suchkins, all you said is true and sad, but I think you are missing the other half of the equation.
It's not a black and white situation, but I still believe is possible to recover it.
Get rid of the extremists on both parts, and let the moderate, peace lovers regain control.
Israel side:
The extreme right, never heard of sionists? tha "great Israel"? Something in an amaizing way similar to "Mein kampf" BS.
Religious extremists.
Settlers, expecially the last generation ones, the ones coming from former URSS, as someone told me the more violent ones.
Palestinian side:
The Fanatic religious organizations
The Laic terrorists (yes, not all the terrorists are of the religious type).
After this cleansing, and with a HUGE effort, the concept of a peacefull living can have some hope.
A friend of mine (lost contact) is an Israelian from Bethlem, he have IL citizenship, Israel passport...
Only a little problem: his passport is in a different colour of the usual one (yellow??).
Do you know why?
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cc hortlund that happned to 2 guys in my period too(1 walked on mines, and one was sniped) I dont hate them (neither of them) but acutally think i understand the problem.
I have seen it from both sides, mostly arabs but when on free time we went to Tel aviv and that is a great place :D
both the arabs and the isralies is human beeings like us, and
they sure want to live in peace but as usual bad eggs killing that possibility :(
well most isrealy and arabs have the same wishes and isnt that odd ?
I think it will take 100`s of years to clean the toejam up, but hope it get on faster.
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Naso,
The Israeli government issues different colored passports for security reasons. Evidently, they are not concerned about racial profiling or political correctness.
But what you say is true; the ordinary Israelis and Arabs will never be allowed to live in peace because of the extremists. The only differences between the extremists tend to be their approaches to the use of violence. In my possibly biased opinion, one approach is more reprehensible than the other.
Regards, Shuckins
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Palestinians will never get land until Israel gets sense of security. OTOH, Israel will never get security until Palestinians get land. That is one helluva mess.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Suave - they are exactly the same bull dozer in both photos, and definitely not the armoured bulldozer in your picture.
The only reservation I have is with the treeline - but there is a movement of POV from the first to the second photo that might account for that.
Dowding, notice the differences between the lights mounted on the cab and the accessories mounted on the cab in both pictures. One has the lights mounted in front of the cab, just below the roof, at the corners. The other has the lights mounted above the cab, at the same corners. Also, there are different accessories mounted to the roof of each, and in different locations. There are also slight differences in the steel gaurd on top of the blade. They are in fact two different bulldozers. The differences may or may not be immediately apparent to the casual observer, but with a little knowledge of heavy equipment and some attention to detail, they will be clearly visible. Every bit as visible as the fact that those "skulls" someone claimed were on the bulldozer are actually the hydraulic rams and knuckles that raise and lower the blade.
There is little doubt she was in one way or another killed by being crushed under a piece of tracked heavy equipment. However, nothing in the written account matches the photos used for evidence, other than there is a girl (maybe, you cannot readily identify the person(s) in the photos), a bulldozer (actually two different bulldozers), a bullhorn, and some ground where it took place (possibly not even the same location). She's not even under the supposed pile of rubble when the bulldozer is only 30 feet away, when they claim she was crushed as the bulldozer pushed a pile of dirt, sand, and debris over her, ran over her, backed over her, and the reversed to a position several hundred yards away. In the time it would take the bulldozer to back up 30 feet from her body, there is absolutely no way two or three people could possibly hope to remove at least a ton of dirt, sand and debris to uncover her. And remember, those who provide the photo claim she was buried under a pile of dirt, sand, and debris as tall as the blade of the bulldozer (about 6 FEET high), then driven over and crushed by the same bulldozer, backed over and crushed again by the same bulldozer, and then they rushed forward and dug her out of said pile, crushed and compacted by the bulldozer, as the bulldozer continually retreated in reverse to a position several hundred yards away. Yet in well under 30 seconds, two people had her dug out of the pile and held her while another person took the photos! Two people couldn't move a ton or more of debris in thirty minutes, let alone 30 seconds.
Where are the rest of the pictures they would most certainly have and be willing to show if the pictures backed up their claims?
In order to take their account as factual, you should be able to clearly and easily match the account in complete and total detail with the photos, and it does not even come close. You are taking photos, which do not match the eyewitness account (given by the same people who took the photos), taken by, and provided for viewing by, a group of people with an obvious agenda, as the absolute and certain truth beyond any doubt. A foolhardy basis for a statement of fact at best.
Is it a sad, pitiful incident? No doubt. Is it proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that she was intentionally pursued and crushed by an IDF bulldozer? Not hardly. Not even close.
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http://www.futt.com/rune/index.php?file=remember2.html
sorry schultz wont say cause will reveal identity :)
that link give those who wanted to give peace a chance a name.
hint: you know a guy called John Gerhard Berg ?
if not search VG and you find out why I wont reveal my identy in here.
He was a member of HA. and bombed the bandidos hq in drammen some years ago.
And the fuker is close to me grrr :(
I sure hope he rest i jail rofl.
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Originally posted by Tuomio
Lets investigate:
Woman lays in front of military vehicle, which is doing military operation in warzone. Women dies.
What exactly is warzone in Palestina ?
Im afraid that whole palestina is warzone....
if so, we can consider whole Israel as warzone as well, so why are you wondering about flying bus ?
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There's extremists on both sides, who don't want peace, they want victory over the other side.
There's a nicely illustrative story in today's Ha'aretz. Monday night was the annual pilgrimage to Baruch Goldsteins tomb. Goldstein is the man who walked in to a mosque in 1994, and shot dead 29 Palestinians at prayer.
The "pilgrims" dressed one of their number up in an Ariel Sharon mask, and staged a mock execution. They don't like him because he isn't right wing enough for him.
Goldstein's grave was quite a shrine in the Meir Kahane park in Kiryat Arba, named after the Rabbi who spent time in prison in America and Israel for terrorism, and who advocated ethnically cleansing all Arabs from Israel and the occupied territories. Kahane was banned from standing in Israeli elections because of his racism, and Goldstein committed the worst terrorist act after the signing of the Oslo accords. They are both honoured amongst the residents of Kiryat Arba, the main Jewish settlement adjoining Hebron.
Why do you think the Hebron settlers are there? to increase Israeli security? The IDF has lost dozens of men, and devotes thousands of troops to protecting them.
They are there to take the land away from the Arabs. It's as simple as that, and they make no pretence about it. After Goldstein murdered the Arabs, the IDF imposed a 30 day curfew on Hebron, and closed an Arab market. The Arab market has since been taken over by more settlers, even though the shops are still legally owned by Arabs, who are no longer allowed access to their property. And now another area adjacent to the market has been declared off limits to Arabs, to provide security for the settlers now living in the market.
Another article in today's Ha'aretz, on the army protection for illegal outposts in the territories:
"One of the controversial duties is protecting the illegal outposts in the territories. A Peace Now report shows there are 107 such outposts. Let's assume the protection of such an outpost - including a perimeter defense and protection of the roads and checkpoints leading to it - employs no more than 30 soldiers (recently, there were reports that Shirat Hayam, an outpost in the heart of Gaza, has 40 soldiers protecting it, while other reports say between 10 and several dozen soldiers protect each outpost). The total number of reserve days required for the mission every year is 1,171,650 - 107 outposts x 30 soldiers x 365 days.
Even if we assume there's a certain degree of overlap on the access roads and checkpoints leading to the various outposts, and there are security installations in the area that would, in any case, be guarded, this is nonetheless hundreds of thousands of days of employment for soldiers around what are illegal outposts.
This number does not include the massive security for illegal outposts that were retroactively legitimized, like the Jewish enclave in Hebron, which requires thousands of soldiers to protect it, or other outposts that were turned into legal settlements.
It doesn't matter if the guards are reservists or conscripts, since together they make up the activities of the army. What's important is the number of days required to protect an illegal activity and the influence on the allocation of the army's resources. Two principles should be examined in this context: the first touches on the mere fact that people who are breaking the law are winning the state's protection. The second is how the army uses soldiers for the purpose of an activity that is under public dispute.
The first question is simple, which makes the lack of public debate about it even more puzzling. Would it cross anyone's mind that a gang of burglars would call up the police and ask it to protect them during a robbery because the area where the crime is taking place is considered dangerous? Would anyone accept a criminal's request for protection while they are transferring drugs, weapons or money to another gang, a dangerous activity in its own right? The answer, of course, is no. In a normal country, criminals and security forces are on opposite sides of the fence and do not coordinate their activities and cooperate with each other.
Thus Israel has been turned into the only country in the world where the criminals don't offer protection, but demand it - and get it. The army provides the protection to the illegal outposts as a state organization meant to protect the lives of its citizenry, avoiding all ideological activity. In the current reality, it's reasonable to assume the army would not allow its soldiers to take part in seminars about the illegal outposts or call on soldiers to settle in them, because that would be considered controversial. But, at the same time, under orders from the government, it sends soldiers to protect those outposts even if it means endangering lives. The government thus requires the army to be an accomplice to an ideological crime. "
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Airguard, IMHO this has nothing to do with the driver running her over. IMHO this is nothing more than an unfortunate accident. Captain Virgil Hilts post pretty much sums it up for me.
From the photos my perspective is she got out of the way but not far enough.
So heres the question, what would you call someone who let their children play near working bulldozers? Would you call that person a handsomehunk?
What would you call someone who played chicken with a bulldozer? I'd call them a handsomehunk (unless they're in a bigger bulldozer).
Its unfortunate so many here believe some hastily put together propaganda that has more holes in it than a block of swiss cheese. Its unfortunate you assume the driver was out to kill her.
On the political side, I wonder if she stood in front of Muslim clerics with her bullhorn trying to prevent them from teaching 5 year olds the virtues of suicide bombings?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
On the political side, I wonder if she stood in front of Muslim clerics with her bullhorn trying to prevent them from teaching 5 year olds the virtues of suicide bombings?
Decide for yourself Vulcan - that's her in a recent picture.
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At least 3 of those boys have got the "Man this squeak is CRAZY" look on their face!
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Yea when I saw that picture it erased any doubts I had about my tremendous joy of her death.
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hmm here's an idea, reduce Israel's annual aid X million dollars per year for every illegal settlement that exists, and raise it (or cut Palestinian aid) Y thousand dollars for every civilian (or soldier?) murdered by terrorists. I don't know if we'd want to give the same rate for civilians in illegal settlements as for the others, distinguish between civilians in Israel proper and civilians in the west bank. The point is to create incentives for the Israelis to renounce dreams (and practice) of creeping annexation, and for the Palestinian authority to control terrorist acts by its own people. If it doesn't work, and the figures are set right, we would wind up totally monetarily disengaged from the region, making us less of a target for the crazies.
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heres hoping Iraq is less of a headache than Israel-Palestine :)
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I say cut all other aid to Israel and just send them more hippies and bulldozers....
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wouldnt the one cancel the other out?
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Why dont we give each side some desert territory on opposite sides of Nevada? Be cheaper in the long run.
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Originally posted by Rasker
wouldnt the one cancel the other out?
Yea the bulldozers would cancel out the hippies...
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I don't know if anyone noticed, probably not because the US takes very little interest in other countries politics unless it disagrees with there... but very high on the profile of the English Parliamentary debate was sorting out Israel and Palestine.
There were some very heavy hints of things to come.
I got the feeling that some very 'backroom' negotations have gone on between the US, the UK, and Israel. I think that tied in with the 'liberation' of Iraq is that Israel will a) stay the diddly outta the fight and b) Israel will begin a serious peace plan with the Palestinians which will include withdrawal of occupied terrotories and recognition of the Palestinian state.
Could be some good news finally.
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i sure as hell hope so vulcan. we may be doing the 'right thing' with saddam.. but we sure as hell have not been doing the 'right thing' w/ israel for the last 50 diddlying years.
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well, all the major recent progress in the Middle East occurred after the last Gulf War, when Saudi and other Gulf states cut off the PLO subsidies for Arafat's support of Iraq and forced him to the bargaining table. Could be Israel will offer major concessions that the Palestinian legislature will take whether or not Arafat wants to accept them.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Some of us do come from countries where family and friends getting blown into little pieces was a threat. Where our armed forces were not allowed to wear their uniform off-duty in case of attack.
So piss off with your lecturing, you ignoramus.
Yeah piss of peasant, they blowing us up by the thousands here.
Ya stupit maroon. I owe ya a thump on the head.
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They are blowing you up by the thousands?
What do you think the IRA and other paramilitaries did for 30 years? Pick flowers and hand them out? Push ahead with a poster campaign and lobbying group?
They killed over 3000 people and destroyed both Manchester's and London's financial districts.
I refer you to my earlier comments. Ignoramus.
I owe ya a thump on the head.
And I owe you a book entitled 'Modern History for Dummies'. Don't worry it will only contain words with two sylables or less - wouldn't want to give you a headache, would we?
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Originally posted by Dowding
They are blowing you up by the thousands?
They killed over 3000 people and destroyed both Manchester's and London's financial districts.
You dont have a monopoly on suffering
They got that many in one day here 9/11
Pissant.
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A monopoly on suffering is exactly what you are claiming, sonny Jim. Let's just look at the comment that sparked this:
Or maybe they are just tired of thier families and children being blown into little pieces.
You stupid SOBs need this in your backyard a little bit.
See how fast you STFU and take actions.
Enough said.
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Even tho I dont agree with what she was trying to do, 23 is still too young to die for something that many 23 year olds do not understand or even care about. I'm glad that I am now 38 and I am glad that the young people of our armed forces are led by older and wiser leaders.
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harltess ****heds :(