Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Elfie on March 16, 2003, 05:34:42 PM
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Today while firing at a spit9 a *friendly* dives in from above and behind me right into my tracer stream.....saw him coming at the last second and let off the triggers but it was already to late. My FW's 4 20mm cannon ripped me to shreads.
Why should I have to pay for someone else's stupidity? Why should anyone else for that matter?
There has to be a better way than killing the plane thats shooting. ( I know kill shooter is suppossed to stop people from fragging teammates intentionally and in that regard it does what it was designed to do) However...what about the situation I described above? In real life the moron described above would have been removed from the gene pool....unable to pass along his defective genes to future generations.
What ideas do you guys have that would be viable alternatives to kill shooter? Let's give HTC some options for AH2.
I personally like the idea that if you kill a certain number of friendlies your country won't give you ammunition for 24 hours or so.
Throw out those ideas guys.
Elfie
Armageddon Pile-it
HiTech give us Napalm
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Read interview @ simhq,killshooter in AH2 is gone :)
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Sure, but once AH2 comes, then we'll be reading posts that say "Court martial needs to go away" because once again, they couldn't avoid hitting a friendly.
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Originally posted by steely07
Read interview @ simhq,killshooter in AH2 is gone :)
read that again.....only the mission arena won't have killshooter.
There has to be at least ONE alternative thats better than kill shooter, let's find it :)
Elfie
Armageddon Pile-it
HiTech give us Napalm
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Learning when to check-fire?
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I did check fire, still had bullets in the air. And I stated that in the original post :)
This original post was to look for viable alternatives to the kill shooter code, if you don't have anything constructive to say Chairboy please don't reply :)
Elfie
Armageddon Pile-it
HiTech give us Napalm
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Elfie,
You're situational awareness was inadequate. If it had been adequate you would have checked fire before it was too late as you would have known that a friendly was about to do something stupid.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Sure, but once AH2 comes, then we'll be reading posts that say "Court martial needs to go away" because once again, they couldn't avoid hitting a friendly.
Some might say that. However AH2:TOD is going to be a military sim, a court martial for friendly fire incidents is appropriate in that setting. AH2: Classic will still have kill shooter....unless.....we can come up with a better way that HTC likes :)
Elfie
Armageddon Pile-it
HiTech give us Napalm
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Originally posted by Karnak
Elfie,
You're situational awareness was inadequate. If it had been adequate you would have checked fire before it was too late as you would have known that a friendly was about to do something stupid.
You can't always avoid Karnak, as hard as we try. Everyone's SA drops to one extent or another as you line up your shot, that's when you become vulnerable to kill shooter. :)
Elfie
Armageddon Pile-it
HiTech gie us Napalm
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Elfie,
That is true, but cie le vie. Shrug it off and go on.
Killshooter is the only method that I am aware of that both deals with the idiot factor and causes people to hold their fire (mostly) when a friendly is between them and the target.
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Dont know what kind of coding it would take but lets take Elfies case and say that Elfies bullets had no effect so there would be no killshooter...He shot all he wanted at a friendly and the only thing he would be in loss of would be ammo...
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Originally posted by WldThing
Dont know what kind of coding it would take but lets take Elfies case and say that Elfies bullets had no effect so there would be no killshooter...He shot all he wanted at a friendly and the only thing he would be in loss of would be ammo...
That would create a gameplay mechanism to make the fights less realistic than they are now.
In reality you checked your fire to save your buddy's life. Here you do it to safe your life. In both cases you check your fire when around friendlies.
Take that away and everybody'll just blaze away at the con at the front of the line, shooting around friendlies without thinking. That in no way bears a resemblance to real air combat.
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Karnak your own bullets killing you in no way resembles real air combat either.
What if our bullets could damage friendlies?......We would need some sort of penalty for killing a friendly then.
If we could damage friendlies you wouldn't see 5 guys all spraying hot lead trying to hit one target w/o regard for friendly fire.
What penalty could we impose if you killed a friendly guys? Help me out here :)
Elfie
Armageddon Pile-it
HiTech give us Napalm
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a 24 hr ban, i'd think i'd rather have my tail fall off
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How about your ammo and the ammo of the guy who dove in front of you are both turned to rubber bullets for the remainder of that flight?
tgnr
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It's the same as with collisions.
- The one that sees a crash isn't necessarily responsible for it.
- The one that shoots a friendly down and get's killshootered isn't either. Or without killshooter, if you get killed by FF it can still be your own fault.
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Tngr2001, why punish 'the guy who dove in front of you'? How is the game supposed to know the difference between someone who foolishly flies into someone elses line of fire and someone who is shot by a dumb friendly?
With your punishment, I could shoot a friendly because I was a jerk and force them to land and take off w/ a fresh plane.
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i dont mind KS, its the damage multiplier i hate. I accidently ping someone once; my whole plane falls to pieces. Maybe we could still have KS but have the damage multiplier lowered so that the bullets only have normal - or even 1/2 the effect they would have on an enemy.
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Originally posted by Furball
i dont mind KS, its the damage multiplier i hate. I accidently ping someone once; my whole plane falls to pieces. Maybe we could still have KS but have the damage multiplier lowered so that the bullets only have normal - or even 1/2 the effect they would have on an enemy.
There's no multiplier. But no matter where you hit the enemy all damaged is assigned to the same part of your plane (some important part like tail I think).
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Tngr2001, why punish 'the guy who dove in front of you'? How is the game supposed to know the difference between someone who foolishly flies into someone elses line of fire and someone who is shot by a dumb friendly?
With your punishment, I could shoot a friendly because I was a jerk and force them to land and take off w/ a fresh plane.
And your suggestion would be.... :rolleyes:
Clearly, the game wouldn't know the difference... but right now, the shooter gets killed in every case and the person who "foolishly flies into someone elses line of fire" not only gets off penalty free, he probably also steals the kill.
My theory is that, if there were a penalty for "accidently" diving between a friendly and the NME who's 6 he's on, there will be less "accidental" incidents. By turning his bullets into rubber, he don't get to steal the kill. By turning my bullets into rubber, at least I can have the opportunity to land. The cases I've seen (and a quick check of my score will show that as a pilot, I'm better off in an OSTI... so I admit I'm not speaking from a whole lot of experience)... the cases I've seen seem to be of overzealous pilots after a kill someone else is already on knowing there is no risk to themselves from friendly fire.
tgnr
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Seems pretty simple to me... they should BOTH die. This punishes the shooter for waxing a friendly, and punishes the friendly for being silly enough to jump out in front of you.
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lol How many times in the last 3 years has this same old subject come up?
WAY to darn many IMO.
Don't fly in packs, 2 on a con is enough.
If your SA is so poor as to let someone slide into your bullet stream you deserve to be shot down.
Killshooter works, it not only keeps new dweebs from shooting their own. It acts as a balanceing factor in gameplay. (As you so rudely found out)
I can count on the fingers of 1 hand the times I've killshootered myself in main.
Its not broke, don't fix it, quit whining.
(And don't bother flaming me either cause I won't read this thread again)
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Rediculously simple answer. Make friendlies invulnerable to the bullets of thier teamates, noone gets killed, penalized, and the worst that happens is an interrupted stream of bullets.
As AMOF, there is indeed a damage multiplier, I tested this with a friend. We were both in panzers and I pinged him for about 10 seconds straight with the pintle and my panzer explodes. There isn't anywhere you could hit an enemy panzer with the -entire- pintle ammo box/clip whatever and kill it, let alone a hundred rounds or so.
As for the Killshooter, I've had this problem before as far as some random idiot jump in front of my cannon fire (110) and lost me 4 kills, stealing the fifth. :mad: (He zoomed latterally into my fire, so SA couldnt really have helped too much)
Anyway, I don't see why this solution wasn't thought of before. If there's a reason why this wasnt thought of before, please do tell me :).
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Originally posted by Rutilant
Anyway, I don't see why this solution wasn't thought of before. If there's a reason why this wasnt thought of before, please do tell me :).
Well its been said, in this very thread, why this wouldn't work.
No one would give 2 ****s about friendlies while attacking, they're just spray the nme, EVEN IF there was a friendly in the line of fire.
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D'oh. Really? I have to read more carefully.. But if it has to be done to stop people from being courtmarshalled left and right, then I'de go with it. However if we have to just deal with it, then I'll just make sure to watch out.
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I was recently the victim of a friendly fire issue in a single death TOD. Problem was, it was all my fault, not the guy shooting. I was capping and my wingman got on a La-La tail but was being out run. I had alt so I dove in, got fixated on target and as I triggered, so did my wingman, whom I had forgotten about. I flew right into his stream and ended my night prematurely.
So, should he be punished somehow becuase of my mistake.
Friendly fire is a part of warfare, one which only training and discipline can hope to prevent. If there is no KS, the game is mush more realistic. If it happens once, you are gone for 24 hours. If it happens again, you are automaticall banned.
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I think it should be a bit more lenient than that.. Perhaps more than one friendly kill a mission would result in punishment.. Or two consecutive missions with a single friendly kill.
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read the interview
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Leave it as it is and pay attention.Ive killed myself a time or two and deserved it each time because I wasnt useing proper SA.Nuff said.
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Originally posted by Furball
i dont mind KS, its the damage multiplier i hate. I accidently ping someone once; my whole plane falls to pieces. Maybe we could still have KS but have the damage multiplier lowered so that the bullets only have normal - or even 1/2 the effect they would have on an enemy.
I like this, reduce the amount of damage you take from Killshooter. This way if you ping a friendly once or twice you still take damage but it most likely won't be lethal. HiTech and Pyro what are the chances of this happening?
For those of you who say this is simply a matter of bad SA.....each and every one of you drops your SA to one extent or another as you line up a shot. This is normal and most likely accounts for most of the friendly fire incidents the majority of us experience in the MA. However, this thread isn't about *bad SA*, it's about finding an alternative, an alternative that won't penalize you with death when some idiot pulls in front of you with no regard for his (or yours) own safety.
Killshooter doesn't always stop fragging btw. I have intentionally KS'd someone who was following me around and shooting the planes I had already killed but not exploded. (example.....one plane I shot the tail off of and this individual exploded the nme plane and got credit for the kill. After 4 of these incidents and no response from the offending player when I tryed to communicate with him I simply flew in front of him as him tryed to hose down my next kill. He exploded quite nicely :D )
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I am guilty of that my self sometimes. but not being deliberate. I seen a fight . the Icon to me looked like a P51 augering. I go in to shoot it in case he regains control. just then I see a flaming P51 and a s Chute apears i get yelled at for trying to steal a kill or a cheap assists . I assume lag attributes to that.. As in kill shooter. rather have it on > one thing About Online games. DF2 DF3 this one have Jerks that do nothing but come on and destroy the game by killing anyone just to annoy.
I have delt with those types since Delta Force One came out you cant change a jerk being a jerk, they are here to stay. I just Play and have fun . i stay away from them as much as possible, and if 50 people vulch a field you can not avoid kill thiefs or kill shooter to many people around that want to impress every one landing kills and seeing their names get posted for all to see . One thing nice about large maps . there are other places to fight at
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I saw somthing last night, that makes me feel like Kill shooter should go away. There was one of my team mates panzers disabled. He was AFK. An emy M8 rolled inside the disabled Panzer and began shooting at us. The problem was when we shot at him we were killed by killshooter. All he had exsposed was the muzzle of his gun. It was impossable to kill him. To me this is exsploiting the game. It is almost like a cheat. I think this kind of action is the reasion kill shooter needs to go. That or make it so that enmy tanks cant drive though each other. Make the tanks just bump into each other.
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Thats not possable.He may have been right next to him but they would have collided.Just like planes.They cant coexist in the same space.Ive rammed other GV's.It just looked like he was inside the panzer.:(
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GVs don't collide in AH
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I could swear that in MA I ran into a panzer in a M16 and was killed.I remember for CERTAIN that I ramed a plane with a panzer and dont remember if I died in that one but he did.I will have to experiment.:rolleyes:
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i once rammed a chog on the tarmac with a goon once, he died first :D
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Just one small comment about SA, many have said it is bad SA when you shoot a friendly who drops into your bullet stream, but, I ask where was *HIS* SA when he dropped between you and the target. Go buy a 3$ headset, use local VOX channel, and let someone know when you have a better attack angle, and are going to drop in front of them!
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Actually,lag can cause this too.You think you have seperation and someone jumps slightly.As long as there are online games there will be issues at times.Its really hard to call a lack of SA or a lag issue.May as well leave it as it is.they COULD reduce the kill effect on the shooter.I have rarely survived hitting a friendly on the few times that I have hit someone.Maby just take out the engine instead of blowing the plane apart.
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Wouldn't it be easy enough to delay the killshooter effect by a second or two. In the original post, the pilot was focused on the con, he released the trigger when he saw the friendly but lead was in the air. So if kill shooter was delayed by say 2 seconds he wouldn't have killed himself. Of course if the intention was to kill the friendly, that is he didn't release the trigger killshooter would take over and end the fight. Depending on SA in a sometimes laggy environment doesn't seem to make sense when you can build in a delay.
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Keep something in mind here folks....
In many cases if someone is diving from above he can't see underneath his plane. So if you're directly beneath him when he starts his dive he can't see you. This is especially true when capping a field.
On the other hand you can see him clearly by looking up. The one at fault in a capped field situation is the lower of the two planes.
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>>You're situational awareness was inadequate. If it had been adequate you would have checked fire before it was too late as you would have known that a friendly was about to do something stupid.<<
I don't agree at all. And why should the responsibility for watching not only yer 6 but, the section of air that a friendly is in as well?
Killshooter, like many well intended things is flawed because of the dweebs who will use it to their advantage simply because they have more E; it winds up penalizing those who do not.
To say, from hindsight that he made the mistake because he fired when he had the shot is unfair, and probably BS :)
When was he to shoot? At 200 feet and closing? Thereby running the risk of ramming the nme? Hell, if the man had the shot, and a dweeb came diving down at breakneck speed to steal the kill, he shouldn't have died! The dweeb who dove in front of him should have.
Yeah, I have read this much debated topic in here many times. But, the many discussions and threads haven't changed my mind.
If it is flawed, don't bring it to a new version of the game.
I would suggest a method which would penalize anyone who gets lead from a friendly by a reduction in points for a hop; for many of those who do that, its all about the points anyway; so screw em where it hurts, point potatos hate that
:D
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This is a yopic that has no real answer.Theres no clear cut line as to whos at fault.You shouldnt have to worry aboput someone faster coming in from above.If there that much faster they allready saw you.As long as there is no real death there will br\e no real courtesy from some and just overegerness from others.Throw in the lag effect and there ya go.No way to call it,
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Originally posted by Okugi
Seems pretty simple to me... they should BOTH die. This punishes the shooter for waxing a friendly, and punishes the friendly for being silly enough to jump out in front of you.
Now the above is the best suggestion of all.
Another suggestion is to take away the ammo for 24 hours, from the killer, instead of killshooter, which would allow the killer to still fly, but he could only fly goons - which will surely solve those ignored calls for goony birds. Just imagine - airfields would be resupplied, gvs would be resupplied, troops dropped when needed. It could work.
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Originally posted by Hap
read the interview
I have read the interview :) -
Originally posted by Rutilant
Perhaps more than one friendly kill a mission would result in punishment.. Or two consecutive missions with a single friendly kill.
- was referring to the coartmarshal and when it would come into effect.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Learning when to check-fire?
Checking fire is fine and dandy when the idiot pulling in front of you tells you in advance. Given the games lag/packet loss factor... Well, by the time you see him, it's too late to do anything but pray.
The voice of experience, says put in a working rear view mirror to help stave off KS'ing ones self. We all know that there were planes in the theaters that had them in use... Besides the Brits that is.
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What you mean besides the brits?
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Solution:
Dont gang :}
:D
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Originally posted by BenDover
What you mean besides the brits?
BD: It's a pretty straight forward statement, I should imagine. If I have to explain it to you, then you're far more mentally challenged than your writing displays. :D
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Well there are 2 conclusions i get from that:
1. You are saying the Brits shouldn't get mirrors on there planes (which they did have)
----OR----
2. You are saying other countries had mirrors on their planes.
Oh, btw, if you have to make fun of a dyslexic's writing style to make yourself feel big and hard, go right ahead.
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Originally posted by BenDover
Well there are 2 conclusions i get from that:
Correct answer: You are saying other countries had mirrors on their planes.
Oh, btw, if you have to make fun of a dyslexic's writing style to make yourself feel big and hard, go right ahead.
You hide your dyslexia very well, sir, and I salute your progress. Far better than I do my hearing impairment.
What I fail to see in your comment is, how I am making fun of a condition that, until now, I had no knowledge of? Well, okay, there was the mentally challenged snippet where I forgot to add the :p joking smilie face. Sorry bout that. Really, trully I am. I have a hydroencephelatic nephew, and should know better than anyone how small jibes like that can hurt. :o
Yes. Not only did the Brits have mirrors, and rightly so IMHO, but the USAAF, USN, ANZAC, LW, and a couple lend lease countries too. ;)
Did that help answer the question?