Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hortlund on March 17, 2003, 05:25:16 AM
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I've spent quite some time pondering over this one lately. Those of you who know me probably remembers my last suggestion:
If the Israelis were really smart, they'd build a fake city like they did in the movie Blazing Saddles. Put up a bunch of signs like: Keep out Palestinians! etc. Then sit back and watch all the Pals run in there and blow themselves up. And the sooner the Pals blow themselves up, the sooner the whole region will be peaceful.
Since the suggestion didnt get the appreciation it so richly deserved, I have decided to drop that idea.
I have been over this subject a dozen of times with some of you (Dowding, Nashwan), and I have always stated that my position is that peace is not possible simply because there are issues that are unsolveable. They are
1) Water rights
2) Right of palestinian refugees to return
3) Jerusalem
4) Settlers
Well, I think I have the solution.
Return to the 1967 border with the exception that Israel gets Eastern Jerusalem
That means:
-All settlers removed from the West Bank/Gaza
-West Bank becomes part of Jordan
-Gaza strip becomes part of Egypt
-Palestinian refugees allowed to return to any area within Jordan and Egypt (but NOT Israel).
The pals get to live under arab rule instead under Israeli rule. They will be protected by Jordanian law, thus they will have the same rights, freedoms and obligations that the average Jordanese have (which is alot better than what they had under the PA).
At the same time, Security will not be that much of an issue to Israel because Jordan has proved they are reliable (i e they will not allow rocket attacks across the border the way Lebanon did) Jordan has fought wars against the Pals and Syria and Israel, they are a nation state, they can be held accountable for their actions. Jordan has proved several times that they are a "serious" and stable nation, the Pals have proven several times that they are not able to handle a nation of their own.
The same can be said about Egypt, serious, accountable, stable (everything is relative), they can have the Gaza strip.
There will be some sour pills to swallow for both parts. The Israelis will have a nightmare removing all the settlers, the Pals will have a nightmare explaining to all the refugees that they cannot return to their old homes. Jerusalem will be Jewish, something that the arabs will have a hard time accepting, but it beats the alternative.
I have actually given this some thought (honest) and I think this is the best idea...
Any comments before I mail this one to the white house?
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For once I agree mostly with you but sadly it's more a dream than something possible.
I don't see any of the party involved do the 1st move .
(IMO Jerusalem should be better under full control of the UN or some neutral organisation).
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Just exactly how are you going to induce the Jordanians and Egyptians to grab a-hold of this tarbaby with both hands?
What is in it for them? As you point out, the Jordanians have had problems with the Palestinians before. Why would they want to be held accountable for what the Palestinians will without doubt continue to try to do to Israel?
That'd be my question.
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damit !
re-reading your post after reading Toad's one it look like I've complelty mis-understood Hortlund post (I read it my way ..).
:(
:eek: :eek: what an idiot I am.
btw this time I agree with Toad the Jordanian have already a lot of trouble controling the Palestinian on their own soil and they won't be pleased to have more to control ...
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Sounds good since the palestinians are egyptians and jordanians in the first place .
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Originally posted by Toad
What is in it for them? As you point out, the Jordanians have had problems with the Palestinians before. Why would they want to be held accountable for what the Palestinians will without doubt continue to try to do to Israel?
This is where the US and EU comes into the picture. Huge EU/US funded rebuild-programs can be started in the west bank. A true "win their hearts and minds" campaign. If the pals get to live normal lifes under the Jordan flag, if their homes are rebuilt, if money is spent on their schools, homes, kids etc the terrorists will be marginalized.
What's in it for Jordan and Egypt? A couple of things come to mind. First, they get to expand their borders some, second, they will recieve huge amounts of goodwill, third they will recieve huge amounts of money, fourth we will enter into some kind of mutual protection agreements with them safeguarding their borders and their internal stability, fifth they will be ending the conflict down there.
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I think it'll be "sixth" that they worry about.
Sixth, if the Palestinians that are unhappy continue to strapp high explosives to their torsos and cross the "new" borders into Israel to do their version of "urban renewal", then Jordan and Egypt will eventually be on the receiving end of some significant Israeli retribution. In fact, it would give the Palestinians leverage to force that very situation.
The Palestinians need their own state. The problem will be making them understand that responsibility and accountability come with that.
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No, the BIG benefit with my solution is that there will be a very clearly defined and easily defended border between Jordan and Israel. You wont have any palestinians crossing that border, anymore than you had East Berliners crossing the Berlin wall.
If the Palestinians are unhappy, they will not start suicide-bombing the Jordanians, because the Jordanians are not jewish... =really hard for Hamas to come up with some Jihad-theory then.
There will be no Israeli retibution, simply because the border region will be patrolled by Israel and Jordan and (if they want) the UN. Can you imagine what that border would look like? Think 38th parrallell.
The palestinians cannot have their own state, they have shown time and time again that they cannot handle that. Even the limited self government the PA was proved to be a disaster in so many areas (security/relations with Israel and human rights to mention two). It is MUCH better to let Jordan and Egypt swallow them.
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The islamic jihad types had no issues with starting trouble in Jordan in the 60s and 70s.
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It's actually quite a good plan, but the Jordanians probably wouldn't want the West Bank, and Egypt wouldn't want Gaza.
Gaza is a refugee camp, and would be a burden on Egypt. The West Bank has too large a population for Jordan to swallow.
1) Water rights
2) Right of palestinian refugees to return
3) Jerusalem
4) Settlers
Water rights are actually easy to solve. Desalination would provide water at a price that's lower than the Israeli consumers pay now, and better quality too.
It's also sustainable, which Israel's current consumption isn't.
2 and 4 should be tied, in my opinion. They are the major goals of both sides. Israel wants all the settlers to stay (and the land annexed), the Palestinians want all the refugees to be allowed to return. There should be a very simple solution, no settlers, no refugees. It has perfect balance.
4 isn't that big a problem. Even Barak almost offered enough over Jerusalem. The West for Israel, the East for Palestine.
The only problem is finding an Israeli government that will remove the settlers and a Palestinian leader who will abandon right of return.
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You are aware that NK's regularly cross into SK, right? They just don't blow themselves up apparently.
Sorry, even with a 38th parallel DMZ, I doubt it will work. My pessimistic view is that there will have to be a slaughter along the lines of the Balkans before both sides can see the stupidity. And even that might not do it..... it took outside intervention in the Balkans and it's probably still not resolved. If all the troops pulled out of there, would it start right up again? I'm thinking yes, it would.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The islamic jihad types had no issues with starting trouble in Jordan in the 60s and 70s.
Well, they were crushed in a matter of months. If you think what Israel is doing right now is bad, you should have seen what the Jordanians did...
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Originally posted by Toad
You are aware that NK's regularly cross into SK, right? They just don't blow themselves up apparently.
Sorry, even with a 38th parallel DMZ, I doubt it will work. My pessimistic view is that there will have to be a slaughter along the lines of the Balkans before both sides can see the stupidity. And even that might not do it..... it took outside intervention in the Balkans and it's probably still not resolved. If all the troops pulled out of there, would it start right up again? I'm thinking yes, it would.
Toad...trust me, it is possible to make a border area "uncrossable".
And you are right about the Balkans and you are right about the Israel/Palestine issue. That is why they have to be separated by a big wall.
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The border wouldn't be a problem. Even Hezbollah have behaving fairly well along the Lebanese border. Governments have got too much to lose by annoying Israel.
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You are aware that NK's regularly cross into SK, right? They just don't blow themselves up apparently.
Sorry, even with a 38th parallel DMZ, I doubt it will work.
There's already a border between Israel and the Gaza strip. No suicide bombers have crossed it.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
This is where the US and EU comes into the picture. Huge EU/US funded rebuild-programs can be started in the west bank. A true "win their hearts and minds" campaign. If the pals get to live normal lifes under the Jordan flag, if their homes are rebuilt, if money is spent on their schools, homes, kids etc the terrorists will be marginalized.
Better thing to do, IMHO.
WTG Hortlund, there's still hope for you. ;) :p
And is a good solution for others hot places around. ;)
Has been used before (read Europe, Ex USSR satellites) an IT WORKS!!! :eek:
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Hey, get the UN to build a big old DMZ/wall all around Israel. I'm sure the French and Germans will be eager to man it for the UN. :D
I just don't want to see ANY (Zero, none, not a single one) US troops anywhere near it.
OH... I still think it won't stop the Palestinian/Israeli violence.
But that's just my .02.
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I agree Naso , IMO education is the only the way to go.
Toad, I'll go but I cannot be any more in the army.
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some posted some excellent ideas....good stuff.
but the conflict we see today between Israel/Pal, is not really what we should really call it....its more on the lines of Jews/Arabs conflict....which has been happenning for a very very long time.....
the fundamental problems occurs cause the Arab religion says.....'KILL THE JEWS"......Israel/Pal....is just an excuse to apply said words of the Holy book for Arabs(Coran).....
and it doesn't help too see AMERICAN hardware in JEWISH hands either.....
so the questions you raised are valid(4 points)....but until BOTH nations stop applyin there religious beliefs 1st....no answers will be found to satisfy all parties.....gotta find a way of excluding religion in IMHO....
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but the conflict we see today between Israel/Pal, is not really what we should really call it....its more on the lines of Jews/Arabs conflict....which has been happenning for a very very long time.....
the fundamental problems occurs cause the Arab religion says.....'KILL THE JEWS"......Israel/Pal....is just an excuse to apply said words of the Holy book for Arabs(Coran).....
Until 1947 there were fairly large numbers of Jews living in Arab countries, with far less persecution than in most of Europe.
Jews were driven out of Israel or massacred by the Crusaders, they were allowed back by Arabs after the crusaders had been driven out.
Jews lived throughout Spain under the Moors, only to be driven out and persecuted under the Christians.
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ok maybe I shoulda been a little clearer......
watched a report by a journalist who went inside Pakistan.....Saudi Arabia...and some other Arab countries
with hidden camera he went inside some religious schools.....
every school he entered he ask questions concerning Jews......
he got all the same responses.......
the good book says kill the jew.....
and the HAMAS are applyin that Holy War jihad thing against the Jews.....
until the Hamas stop using religious overtones in there killings.....it won't stop...even if ya answer the 4 question put forth by Hortlund
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Originally posted by Suave
Sounds good since the palestinians are egyptians and jordanians in the first place .
and Jordan was formerly called "Trans Palestine" and was the orginal home of the "Palestinians". Until the Jordanians threw them out for revolting and attacking the goverment.
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Originally posted by 2Slow
and Jordan was formerly called "Trans Palestine" and was the orginal home of the "Palestinians"
TransPalestine, home of the Palestinian transvestite movement.
(I think it was Trans Jordan, meaning "other side of [the river] Jordan")