Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: gatso on March 17, 2003, 07:36:56 AM
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I am aware that the usage of 4 cannon armed Spits was small. I know a very few were based at Malta and I also know that some of those had two of the cannon removed for various reasons.
I found this whilst browsing today. Caption was "4 cannon armed spits over the Adriatic" Looking at the exhaust stacks I'd say they were MkV's?
Apart from Malta and the above, were there any other examples of use, neglecting prototypes, of 4 cannon armed Spits during WW2? Just wondering, I don't expect to get them in AH :)
Gatso
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lol 4 cannons on the spit and i suspend my account :(
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Originally posted by fffreeze220
lol 4 cannons on the spit and i suspend my account :(
ROFL! We get perked Tempest with 4 20mm and nobody quit.
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Originally posted by fffreeze220
lol 4 cannons on the spit and i suspend my account :(
;)
Count the barrels on this baby Freeze! (It was only a mock up, you don't need to soil your leather underwear just yet ;) )
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arghhhhh:mad: butt ugly :D
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good lord its alive !!
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Curious.
How many rounds per gun in the 6 20mill config?
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4 gun tardfires would turn AH into a poor copy of that beloved arcade classic Joust.
It'd be just Spit Joust High
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Think about it.. Spit XIV with 6 cannons.
That would make an armed dart.
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:D
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Man if a 4 cannon spit get's your 'roids in an uproar some of the planes japan was working on at the end of the war would give you a brain anerysim .
(http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/rys/rys058.jpg)
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Originally posted by gatso
;)
Count the barrels on this baby Freeze! (It was only a mock up, you don't need to soil your leather underwear just yet ;) )
Aieeee !
OK, why not 4 Hiszooka Spits.
I thought there was an Umrüstsatz for the 190a8 that mounted 8 MG151/20 ;) 4 built-in and 2x2 in gunpods under the outward guns...
I KNOW you could mount 2xMK103 ;P
Nice pics BTW
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Originally posted by Fishu
Think about it.. Spit XIV with 6 cannons.
That would make an armed dart.
Mk IV. The first Spit to have a Griffon engine installed and I believe the only one to bear the MkIV designation. I have no idea how many rpg it was envisioned to take. I highly suspect the outer two guns were never even fitted and the barrels you can see are just that. barrels with nothing behind them.
Still wondering on the original 4 cannon Q though. I am assuming most saw service with overseas airforces. I believe the first picture I posted are spits of the SAAF and I know the Aussies were operating 4 cannon examples in 1944.
Gatso
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Does the "tropical" air intake help place them? My GUESS, Italy late '44?
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Well the spitV, spitIX, and seafire in AH all have the universal wing, that means they could be mounted with 4 20mm cannon .
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Suave what is that Japanese bird? the Polish page doesnt seem to link any text to the pic?
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That is the kawanishi j6k .
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Imagine an eight cannon p47?..:eek:
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I used to fly the spit V almost exclusively. I tried the hurri in its different variants a few times but didn't really like the way they performed.
But after growing tired of the spit I decided to give the Hurri IIC a real chance. I must say i fell in love about 3 days after comitting to this plane.
While the spit is an uber ride, i still got in situations where i felt like i didnt have a chance.
In the Hurri IIC i can honeslty say i am not afraid of any other plane. I know the zeke is the only plane that can out-turn me, but i also know i only have to get off one ping on a deflection shot and their tail goes flying off.
I even fly low into furs on enemy bases. I have never survived so long in a 5 on 1 + for so long.
So we dont need a 4 cannon spit.... we have a 4 cannon HURRI!
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errr...nothing to be afraid of there...they would probably insanely decreased speed and turn rate...unlike the similarily armed hurri2c
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The 4 cannoned spit was the Spitfire VB and it was extensively used in the mediteranean and western europe.
I think it may have been used in the pacific at one point.
I dont understand this assumption by people that the rarer marks of spitfire were used in low numbers. Even the spitfire XIV saw extensive use. I often wonder why the spit14 we have is so highly priced when the F4U-4 is similar in price but much better performing and certainly they were used in much smaller numbers.
The perk costs dont seem to have any discernable rule which affects the scores.
If its how much use that raises the cost then shouldnt the f4u-f cost about the same as the f4uc by now? I hardly ever see one.
If its judged by how much impact they are perceived to make on the MA then again, why havent we seen the spit14 go down in price? They are hardly the scurge of the airways are they? as for the ta152 that must be something to do with production numbers else it would be costing less than an F4u-c if it was based on its 'use' in MA.Tempest and me262 seem to be a fair price and we see a good deal of them because they are WORTH their perk cost.They have advantages that are easy to make use of and win with.The others are no push over to suceed in regularly in an MA enviroment, but cost almost the same.Dont make a lot of sense to me.
Id say if they put the spitVB in, it would see about the same use as the hurricane C. In other words rather than overtake the arena it would be more likely to just add to the variety. A spitfire VB would be no better than a N1K. Speed would be slower, manouverability slightly better and armament slightly better. Basically a faster hurriC.is that really so bad?
if its all about the HO crowd then im afraid 2x20mm hitting you vs 4x20mm wont make too much of a difference to you as, if you're making a habit of HO'ing spitfires then you're doing things wrong anyhow. just 2 hispano cannons are needed to down any plane, all we would see is a few cleverplayers using 2 guns at a time to have a longer possible fight duration.Those that spray and pray will use up the guns just as fast as they do now with the spit5 & 9. quicker even if you count the other mgs.
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What does it say about the perk system that the most often encountered perk plane is the me262 ?
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That the 262 kicks bellybutton ?
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Originally posted by hazed-
I dont understand this assumption by people that the rarer marks of spitfire were used in low numbers. Even the spitfire XIV saw extensive use. I often wonder why the spit14 we have is so highly priced when the F4U-4 is similar in price but much better performing and certainly they were used in much smaller numbers.
Yes I know you said 'used'. Maybe someone can list the units using the a/c as of Sept.1 1945. Considering there was ~ 2.2 times more F4U-4s, most likely more Corsair units.
Number manufactured:
Spit XIV > 1054
F4U-4 > 2357
The Spit XIV's number includes those manufacture after WW2 ended. Not sure about the F4U-4 numbers but there was some.
Top speed of both was very simular but the Spit had a RoC 5-600f/m better and a higher ceiling by ~1500ft. And, 1 20mm is equivilent to 3 M2HBs.
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I'm still waiting for them to unperk the C-hog.
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The F4U-4 served operationally in the last 4 months of the war, from April 1945. The SpitXIV entered service in January 1944, more than a year earlier. There were at least as many Spit XIVs in service in WW2, and probably more. The F4U-4 production #s are also including post WW2 numbers. They were used in Korea as well.
Btw the SAAF Spitfire VCs with the 4 x 20mm cannon were rare. Almost all Spitfire Vs were 2 cannon and 4 x 303s. There were NO operational Spitfire IXs with 4 x 20mm cannon used in WW2. I beleive the pic was taken over the Adriatic in 1943.
My best guess would be several hundred (total) Vs with the 4 x 20mm in WW2. Personally I would leave them out as a varient and concentrate on the more widely used models.
You want to talk rare. Try the Ta152, @60 saw action in the entire war. Thats probably the rarest prop fighter used operationally in WW2, or pretty close.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Imagine an eight cannon p47?..:eek:
I do hope you mean eight 20mm's?
how much inch is 20 mm anyway? I know the .50 is 12.7 (or 12.5) the .303 is 7.72 or 7.76mm
...and 37mm?
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20mm is about 79 caliber .
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Squire, from "Spitfire: the History" I count 684 Mk XIV built by May 1945. There could be more but the production runs of the others goes into 1946.
A Vo101 Isegrim, a certified German is 'uber' , all else is crap fanatic, claims there was very few RAF squadrons equiped with the Mk XIV - claims less than 10, iirc. It would be nice to know what RAF squadrons were so equiped in May and Sept 1945.
This is OT but am curious about which squadrons.;)
oh yes, 20mm = 0.7874"
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I repeat, fly the hurri IIC. You will get more girls this way. Just the other day i had a girl over and i was flying the spit and i mentioned that this plane would be great with 4 cannons.
I got smacked in the back of the head and she told me to fly the hurri.
I took a hurri up and then i got more than any rabbit can handle.
In short, Hurri = sex.
:D
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dont want 4 hispanos
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got that damn straight loser...i especcially like when spit 5's try to turnfight the hurri2c excpecting to outturnit...funny toejam
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Most of the Spitfire XIVs built in WW2 saw service, thats the big difference.
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Originally posted by Squire
There are no less than 30 listed from RAF, RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF and other "Foreign manned" RAF squads listed. Not all were ETO squads, but most were.
Squire, are you saying that on, say May 1, 1945, that there was at least 30 Squadrons equiped with the Spit XIV? Just because it says a squadron flew the Spit XIV does not mean it was equiped with that a/c on a specific date, like May 1945. Now further, of the almost 700 Spit XIV's produced until May 1945, you are saying that only approx. 200 were lost, to all causes, in the 16-17 months of use (Jan '44 til May '45). That is for 16 a/c = 1 squadron(16x30=480). If 20 a/c = 1 squadron then Spit XIV losses would only be around 100 a/c (20x30=600).
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No, those were also post war numbers. There were at least 10 squads that flew it on operations in WW2.
I edited my post above.
Some of the WW2 Squads that flew it were: 610, 91, 350, 401, 402, 414, 17, 47, 132, 130, 322. Thats not a total list, just the ones I have found so far.
They were certainly more common than Ta512s or Me262s.
I didnt mention loss #s, dont know where you got that.
If some folks talk about rarity, ask them compared to what?
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The loss numbers came from your edited claim that there was 30 Spit XIV squadrons. Knowing the number of a/c in a squadron (16 > 20) multiplied by the 30 squadrons and subtracting that from the total number produced will give you a loss number.
But since you mentioned Me262, there was 1433 manufactured. Of this total 497 were classed as production losses (destroyed before delivery to LW). That leaves 936 that the LW received in 14 months of production. That is 200-250 more than Spit XIV war time production.
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11 Squadrons that flew Spitfire XIVs in WW2: 610, 91, 350, 401, 402, 414, 17, 47, 132, 130, 322.
As for produced #s, that means nothing. How many squadrons were equipped with Me 262s that flew them? Most of them were never used. In fact only about 100 Me262s ever flew on operations, so again, for historical rarity, the Me262 is the rarer bird, by far. Of the Ta152, a whopping 60 saw service with operational units.
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Spitfire Mk XIVs were common enough to be the main fighter of the 2nd Tactical Airforce from September, 1944 to the end of the European Theatre war and to see service in Burma against the Japanese. They were also flown off of a British CV to support an attack on some island or other (therre was no Japanese aerial opposition in that case as it happens).
Remember, production doesn't tell all. A low production aircraft that sees each airframe used heavily is more common and more significant than a moderate or high production aircraft in which most airframes do nothing and a few see light use.
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LW units that flew the Me262 (there could be more):
Eprbungskommando 262
Kommando Nowotny
Kommando Schenk
I./KG51
Stab KG51
II./KG51
Kommando Edelweis
I./JG7
II./JG7
III./JG7
JG10
III./Erganzungsjagdgeschwader/JG2
KG(J)6
KG(J)27
KG(J)30
IV./Erganzungsjagdgeschwader/KG51
Kommando Stamp
Kommando Welter
NJG/11
I./KG(J)54
Einsatz Kommando Braunegg
Nahaufklarungruppe 6
1/versuchverband Ob. d.l.
JV44
I/Erganzungsjagdgeschwader/KG(J)
II/Erganzungsjagdgeschwader/KG(J)
This is many more units than Spit units listed.
Note that a Staffel was = to a British squadron and that a Gruppe (British Wing) had 3 or 4 staffels and a JG had 3-4 Gruppe(9-16 staffels).
Are you saying the above units only had ~4 Me262s each? That leaves ~800 Me262s unaccounted for.:confused: All units were in a combat zone and could be engaged in combat.
Were those 11 squadrons (say 200 a/c) flying the Spit on May 1 1945? Now, no more evasion, please tell me how many Spitfire XIVs were on the RAF's and other AFs OoB on May 1 1945. If you know, it would be greatly appreciated.
No debatting the Ta152 was a rare bird but only details of ~40 are know.:)
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MiloMorai,
The vast majority of the 1400 Me262s built never flew. Only about 100 saw action. They were very effective, but they were rare.
Also the Germans had the tendancy late in the war to call two fighters a unit and other BS. They simply weren't very organized anymore. That list of units is nice, but...
Were they full units?
Did they actually receive the Me262s they were supposed to have?
Did they fly combat missions in Me262s?
I'm sorry you don't like Spits and want to marginalize them. I don't have a complete squadron listing, but believe us when we say that it saw heavy usage.
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Ah, I hate Spits.:D What a laugh!
Sorry not so. I still see neither of you have any specific info as to the number of Spit XIVs operational on any specific date. Only a generization.:( That is too bad since I would have liked to have quoted you to this Isegrim.:(
So some units had 6 or 8 a/c if others were 'paper' units(???):rolleyes: It still averages out to ~4 a/c per listed unit.:eek: Why don't you check out the units and report back. The units listed are from an American book.:) (for your bias phobia)
Now,
3 March 1945 29 Me262s from Stab and III./JG7 took off to intercept Allied bombers.
7 March 1945 ~30 Me262s from II./KG51 took off to escort some Ar234s.
13 March 1945 22 Me262s from I./KG51 took off on a mission.
26 March 1945, 25 Me262s from I./KG(J)54 transferred bases.
I am over 100 a/c from different units and only from March 1945 and have not listed any from JV44 yet, as well as some other units such as NAGs and EJGs.:eek:
8 Apr. 1945 1./NAG6 had 6 Me262s. I./JG7 had 15 Me262s in the air.
LW Quartermaster General list at least 162 operational Me262s with combat units 9 April 1945 (JV44 had 12 to 15 a/c)
You two still claim only 100 Me262s saw service?:rolleyes:
More,
Kommando Schenk was at Chateaudun France in July 1944 that is SSW of Paris, ~ 110km away, with 9 a/c flying missions. This unit then became part of I./KG51.
Dec. 1944, 52 Me262 to KG51 and 5 to KG54. Both units flew combat.
Lets keep going.:)
Dec. 1944, 41 to III./JG7, 15 to I./KG(J)54
Feb 1945, 28 to III./KG(J)54, 25 to I./JG7, 19 to II./KG(J)54, 13 to I./KG(J)54, 10 TO II./JG7, 7 to III./JG7, 6 to III./KH(J)6, 3 to 10./NJG11
What is the count up to now? You two really should do some better research.
That is enough, as can be seen your only ~100 Me262s to see operational use is bogus.
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I guess because we don't have the documents that they weren't used.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Squire, from "Spitfire: the History" I count 684 Mk XIV built by May 1945. There could be more but the production runs of the others goes into 1946.
A Vo101 Isegrim, a certified German is 'uber' , all else is crap fanatic, claims there was very few RAF squadrons equiped with the Mk XIV - claims less than 10, iirc. It would be nice to know what RAF squadrons were so equiped in May and Sept 1945.
This is OT but am curious about which squadrons.;)
oh yes, 20mm = 0.7874"
Did you called your Master, Briddy? Btw, weren`t you banned from Ubi Forum for your continous agressive style already? :cool:
Well we can repeat that here, too.
As for SPitfire XIVs... a whole 7 Fighter Squadrons were operational during WW2 in the RAF, as the following:
610th: From Jan 1944
91th, 322th from March 1944
130th, 350th, 402nd from August 1944
and 41th from September 1944
First combat loss did not occur until 29th April 1944.
That`s seven squadrons... each Squadron may hold up to a maximum of 20 planes, but in reality losses made that to 12-15, ie. some Typhoon sqaudron ha no more than 2-3 planes out ofthe 20 in the end of 1944.
Counting with a very typcal 75% readiness level (excluding repair), we have around 100 Spitifre XIVs in the whole RAF.
BTW, it was a good joke that the XIV was the premier fighter of the 2nd TAF... they had 4 Fighter Squads equipped with them, plus one fighter-recon equipped with a mix of Mustangs and FR XIVs.
In the meantime the rest of the 30 Squadrons of the 2nd TAF used the old Spit IXs and XVIs.
It`s extremely interesting to compare that number with the number of Bf 109K-4s, G-10s and G-14/AS in the LW fighter units, Jan 1945. These amounted as much as 933 planes in first line combat units (thus 65% of the 109s were of these subtypes). Out of that 314 were Bf109K-4s, at least according to the RL2III/1158 document.
Production numbers are also interesting to compare. Little over 2500 G-10s, 1620 to 1720 K-4s, 686 G-6/AS and around 1835 G-14/AS were built, and around 1400 Me-262s.
On 9th April, there were 180 Me-262 in use with the Luftwaffe combat units, not counting those Schwalbes which were used for training.
"The best thing about the Spitfire XIV was that there were so few of them."
-Adolf Galland
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Why would I call you BarbI? I was going to give the Spit XIV info to you.:rolleyes: But thanks for being somewhat more informative here than at Ubi. When are you going to post some LW performance charts? Not those questionable Russian ones either. Are you afraid they do not show your claims?
Doing the Issy Twist again are we BarbI? How about applying those German a/c manufacture numbers in a simular manner to the way you did for the RAF's a/c numbers.
Now the other matter.
You are not a good teacher BarbI, for I did not learn my lessons from you on how to obnoxious, rude, agressive, ignorant, insulting well enough it seems. As you noticed this AM, I am still at Ubi.:) Your backstabbing was for naught. How was your "vacation", er ban, earlier this past week? Must be about 1/2 a dozen times now you have got one of these little "vacations". Must be that pro Europian bias by the Ubi moderators, especially Tully, that lets you keep coming back.:eek: