Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Fridaddy on March 19, 2003, 01:48:29 AM
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The US Military Chaplain Corps has a comment:
Pray for the men, not the mission.
It allows them to be neutral and still minister to their charges (the men and women on the line)
On this eve of battle it matters not what side your on, pro or against....
Support the troops!
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I doubt there's anyone here against the troops. I ain't.
I just wish things would've gone differently... as do french, germans, etc...
If you think anti-war means anti-american, think again. I stated long ago I really enjoy visiting the states and being among americans, just that I don't agree with the policies of the current government regarding Iraq.
Once the first shot is fired, you bet all the people here are going to wish for a quick victory and few casualties.
Having said that, I must admit the anti-french threads I have grown tired of. You could clearly see some of the bashing was not friendly and showed hatred more than disagreement.
I hope the war is over soon enough, and not many people die in it, so we can all move on and forget about it.
At least the Iraqis will get rid of a dictator...
Daniel
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Almost my feelings, Cyrano.
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Absolutamento, Cyrano.
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good thoughts Cyrano
Tronsky
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This is such crap. All of you swoon how it will be great that iraqis will be freed from their dicator but not one of you supported americas plans to get rid of him - instead you only wanted to guarantee sadam husseins rule through 12 more yearts of UN gossiping like old ladies.
Your wishes of sympathy ring hollow at this time...
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My nephew needs your prayers, even tho he's armed to the teeth with one of these.
http://www.geocities.com/boneyfreak@sbcglobal.net/
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As usual, Euros are taking both sides of the issue. If it was up to them the status quo would be just fine.
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yup ra I dont think anyone can possibly take them seriously.
I mean if Bush is like Hitler going to war with Iraq to kill civilians and steal oil and its so obvious to the enlightened Euro libs then what does that make his troops?
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Thank you for your kind and wise words, Grunhertz, ra and Batz/Wotan.
I love you too.
I ask myself why you are not there to Kill'em all, your bloodlust is not enough to put your life at risk, better to send others to do what you wish and risk their life, instead?
What let you think that someone of us will be happy for even a single death of a US/UK soldier?
Do you really believe we are like you?
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Soldiers from my nation are in the desert right this minute.
Don't dare claim some diddlying monopoly on 'sympathy'. You pathetic individuals. Ironically, you guys are from a nation that treated its own soldiers like pariahs, not so long ago. Worse than toejam.
I don't ever remember that happening in my country - even when the troops were largely convicted thieves and murderers, 200 years ago.
Perhaps a little historical guilt is creeping into the equation?
"Let's overcompensate for the piss poor treatment we gave our lads 30 years ago". That kind of thing.
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Do you really believe we are like you?
No.
And who has ever seriously expressed bloodlust for this war? Posting pics of weapons or jokes about Hussein taking a missile up his butt is not bloodlust. The reason I and many Americans can't take the Euro stance seriously is because you pretend to be better humans than us, smart, well-balanced, not prone to crazy emotional reactions. But you don't bring anything to this discussion except pious hand-wringing about how awful war is. I can tell you it is even more awful when it is your country going in. If Europeans think that America is going in as aggressors against a soveriegn state whose people will suffer needlessly, then you should not 'support the troops'. In fact you should support Iraqi troops who are defending their fellow citizens from the aggression.
ra
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Our Nation didnt treat its vets that way. It was the predominat left wing degenerate counter culture that portrayed these guys as baby killers.
The same type of folks who are "anti-war" now.
I had 2 uncles who were in Vietnam. Ones in wheelchair. Guilt is the last thing I think about when seeing him.
Vietnam was another one of those pointless democrat wars statrted by a liberal. Dont forget that either.
ra summoned up the rest
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POINT:
Originally posted by Dowding
I don't ever remember that happening in my country - even when the troops were largely convicted thieves and murderers, 200 years ago.
COUNTERPOINT
TOMMY
by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
Not that I have a dog in the fight in this particular thread.
Still it seems Dowding may not remember it but Kipling saw it.
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Thought I was gonna read a positive thread......
won't happen I see....
Started out well enough.....
In short....stop bein amazinhunks....SUPPORT our friends....
cool.....
until Grun showed his frustrations......
and RA his jealousy.....
people expressed there opinions....now that time is over.....soon some are gonna die...even though none will be from my country....but my neighbors.
to those about to die.....I hope not....but war is hell
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put up or shut up
send your troops & hardware not your well wishes...
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and RA his jealousy.....
Please go on SLO, I'd like to hear more.
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OK, Toad, so when they were largely convicted murderers and thieves, centuries ago, people didn't like to entertain them. But do you think they didn't fully support them when they were out there fighting? Did they wish harm by them?
Typical "it's all them liberal dem's fault" reasoning Wotan. Piss-poor apologist roadkill. But if it makes you feel better...
The point still stands - you've got absolutely no right whatsoever to judge whether I can support my country's troops or not. I have two friends who are officers in the Army right now. If I believed in god I'd be praying they get home in one piece. And that goes for all the guys out there.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
This is such crap. All of you swoon how it will be great that iraqis will be freed from their dicator but not one of you supported americas plans to get rid of him - instead you only wanted to guarantee sadam husseins rule through 12 more yearts of UN gossiping like old ladies.
Your wishes of sympathy ring hollow at this time...
You really are a small minded tosser...you probably don't even realise our soldiers are there, and even better for us probably.
As one of the ONLY three western armed forces deployed, I am quite right in my concern about our diggers there.
I am completely against the war, but I'll be buggered if that excludes my desire that none of our diggers are killed in it.
Tronsky
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Pearls before swine Toad.
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Originally posted by Dowding
OK, Toad, so when they were largely convicted murderers and thieves, centuries ago, people didn't like to entertain them. But do you think they didn't fully support them when they were out there fighting? Did they wish harm by them?
Come now, Dowding.
"Tommy" was written a little over 100 years ago.
I doubt they were "largely convicted murderers and thieves" then and I suspect Kipling would be the first to call you on what you said.
Remember, this started with your remark you guys are from a nation that treated its own soldiers like pariahs, not so long ago. Worse than toejam".
Well? It's that "history thing" tripping you up.
Again, I think Kipling would be among the first to disagree with you. "Tommy" IS about treating soldiers like pariahs, at least in peacetime. It also highlights the hypocrisy of the attitude change once the drums begin to roll.
Wow. Sort of applies to some of the postings I've seen in this thread!
;)
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Originally posted by Eagler
put up or shut up
send your troops & hardware not your well wishes...
wish we could.....but most of our limited assest are in Afganistan already.....
we had 3 Aegis class warships heading to the gulf area....but I think the Prime Minister called em back.....gonna have to research that 1.....
since Action is coming....and WE have to support our neighbors....my PM decided to stick to the UN issue.....I think that was a mistake....but since Bush has been in office...he prefered dealing with Mexico...instead of his biggest trade partner.....Canada....which he pretty much ignored......I think the old PM is jabbin a left hand at Bush
the "put up or shut up" statement was a little much.....calm down eagler.
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Are you denying the 'noose or the shilling' principle wasn't in operation during the late 19th century? It was written over a hundred years ago - a different world, a different time. People were genuinely afraid of the troops, because they knew that many had very dodgy histories.
When Vietnam was in full swing, man was on the moon, was watching TV and the conscripts were everyday kids.
I think there is a difference there.
It also highlights the hypocrisy of the attitude change once the drums begin to roll.
Wow. Sort of applies to some of the postings I've seen in this thread!
I've always supported British troops. Afterall, some of them are friends. I may not agree with their mission, but I hope for a zero casualty figure.
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LOL.
Dowding, you're backpedaling faster than a tennis player at Wimbledon getting away from the net.
Look, it's obvious Britain treated their soldiers like pariahs as little as ~100 years ago. So what you said was just........ wrong.
Hey, it happens.
As for the hypocrisy, why do you always assume I am pointing at you?
Review the posters in this thread and see if any other candidates pop into your mind. ;)
Unless you are dealing with some kind of hidden guilt... and then you'd probably better see Doc Hangtime. He has an amazing clinical approach right now and I'm not really into that psychoanalysis stuff. :D
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Dowding, the arrogant, ignorant, and spineless scum that derided our troops then are the same, or at least the same type of folks that'll probably do it again. America, land of diversity.
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Because your post was directed at me, was it not?
Besides, it gives me something to argue against. ;)
Carry on!
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Originally posted by ra
I can tell you it is even more awful when it is your country going in.
WE know very well how is a war IN your country, a war that costed 20 and more millions deaths.
You ave nothing to teach about it.
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OK, I've re-read some of the posts in this thread and would like to retract my posts, FWIW.
I went bonkers when I read 'I just wish things would've gone differently... as do french, germans, etc... ", which I took as an expression of solidarity with the French and German governments, which is probably not what Cyrano was saying. I am not happy with the way the leaders of those two governments opposed the war. I believe that the troops we are expressing concern for are facing a worse situation because of it.
Another thing which confused me is I don't understand the need to express support for our troops by those who are against the war. No one but a moron would assume that being against the war means being against the troops, and such morons are best ignored.
That said, would anyone support sending the following message to an anonymous allied soldier sitting in his tent in Kuwait waiting to go to war:
"Dear Soldier,
You are being sent into an unjust, unecessary, and idiotic military confrontation by a crazy, moronic, oil-hungry cowboy (or one of his lapdogs) against a long-suffering nation which will now suffer much more as you follow your orders. I hope you are not hurt during this evil enterprise".
If I were against this war, as I would be if I did not believe that Hussein probably has WMD which he could funnel to our 'other' enemies, then I would now be most vociferously posting against Bush and the other leaders who are forcing this war to happen. But I would not feel any need to express support for our troops. Anyone who assumed that I had ill will toward the troops could kiss my ass. And any post I made in support of the troops would fall into the 'dear soldier' category above.
Out.
ra
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Naso,
Forgive me for not knowing already, but your location says Italy. Which war did Italy lose 20 million in?
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Amazing how things can degenerate in here.
Support for the troops is a good thing.
nuff said.
(I love Kipling BTW - "If" is posted on the wall in my office.)
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Originally posted by Eagler
put up or shut up
send your troops & hardware not your well wishes...
Italian troops are operating in Afganistan, near the border with Pakistan.
In an operation autorized by UN.
This war is not autorized by UN, and I dont see reasons why not call it an aggression.
But this does'nt mean that I wish for the bigger number possible of US/UK/AUS soldiers to survive, as much I wish the same for Iraqi soldiers and civilians.
Why?
Because they are all human beings, and be killed in something like all this, is a waste of precious human lives.
You disagree with this?
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Originally posted by ra
Naso,
Forgive me for not knowing already, but your location says Italy. Which war did Italy lose 20 million in?
You said Euros....
Italy is in Europe...
We are Europeans.
So far... ;)
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look, Saddam will soon be gone, and I hope that we as citizens of free countries can go beyond temporary disagreements and hopefully work together thru our respective governments on such things as Iraq's rebuilding, Afghanistan's rebuilding and a comprehensive Middle Eastern peace.
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OK, I get it Naso. Well, the 'Euros' were kind enough to invite the US into that war, to die along side them. :)
If your message is that war is bad, it may suprise you to know that Americans know that too. But 'war is bad' is not in itself a policy.
ra
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ok no finger pointing.....no name calling....
I have read on this board many many American POV's about his upcoming conflict.....
since most are americans on this board...thats understandable
do I agree.....some yes.....some no.....
America is probably the only nation left in this world that can cross oceans and give ya a good beating....thats a FACT.
MOST countries in this world COULD NOT do that.....so the question is....what tool can they use to protect there interests or voice there opinions....you know that answer, even if ya don't like it....it won't change that FACT.....
now as a country who DOESN'T need the UN...does that mean you can DISREGARD it.....my opinion....NO.....its bad GEO politics...try and look at it from the other side of the fence please.....hard I know.....but ya have ta:p
thats where my problem lies with Dubya's Geo Politics.....disregarding the only tool to voice there opinions is bad politics....FACT.....
Do I agree with France Germany Russia.....to a certain point YES
I woulda let a little more time for inspections....some of ya will really bash me for it...i can feel toad's fingers already typin:D ......but thats just my opinion....inspect instead of dead.....but now France and really this 1 is diff. to understand...Germany....shoul d back up the US....now that the DEBATING is over.....
now that there really really gonna do it.....as a neighbor and biggest trade partner...I wish my govr' would support the US.....even if they did bash my only recourse to voice my opinion.....in my book....ya never never leave your friends alone....even if you disagree.
these are just opinions from someone OUTSIDE your country....no bashing please
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Originally posted by ra
OK, I get it Naso. Well, the 'Euros' were kind enough to invite the US into that war, to die along side them. :)
Sorry for that, well, the invitation was sent by the Japan. ;)
Anyway was a big mess, and I like the fact that you stated "die along side", when there's a lot of people stating that "only US people died for that war", or something similar ;) :p
If your message is that war is bad, it may suprise you to know that Americans know that too. But 'war is bad' is not in itself a policy.
ra
War is a choise, an option, and rarely the better, or wiser one.
There are nations that have choised to elect war as policy, in the past, and in 20th century we had a huge example.
Look what they (well, us :o ) have caused.
We want to repeat history?
Anyway what is really sad is that a post with the intentions to share some toughts about people risking to lose their lives, has been transformed again in a pissing contest.
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Sorry for that, well, the invitation was sent by the Japan.
Actually, it was sent by Germany. Japan invited us to another war. We were very popular in those days.
We want to repeat history?
No. But if Hussein has WMD then not going in would be much more costly than going in. The last gulf war never ended, only a cease fire. With 9/11 we now know that Hussein could use the international terror network to hit us with WMD, if he chose to. I know he is no fan of Islamic radicals, but there is nothing preventing him from using their services against a common enemy. And there is nothing the UN can do to prevent such a scenario.
UN 1441 is all the cover the US and her allies need, IMHO.
ra
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We're all gonna die pretty soon anyway. Our numbers are crippling the earth's ability to sustain us.
We are talking decades, not millenia.
"All human life is precious"... right up to the point there's barely any food left and we're all fighting each other for scraps.
Gets kind of redundant to say those things when it's more than evident we're on our last leg on this planet.
Pollution won't kill us, wars won't kill us... famine caused by overpopulation IS going to kill us, and soon.
-SW
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Originally posted by ra
Actually, it was sent by Germany. Japan invited us to another war. We were very popular in those days.
Funny, in our vision of the same history, was the same war.
:)
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Dont think there was ever a nation in existance that during times of peace, the old "Dogs and Soldiers Keep off the Grass" sign wasnt hung out.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
We're all gonna die pretty soon anyway. Our numbers are crippling the earth's ability to sustain us.
We are talking decades, not millenia.
"All human life is precious"... right up to the point there's barely any food left and we're all fighting each other for scraps.
Gets kind of redundant to say those things when it's more than evident we're on our last leg on this planet.
Pollution won't kill us, wars won't kill us... famine caused by overpopulation IS going to kill us, and soon.
-SW
As far I remember (if memory helps me), a calculation put the "sustaining" limit to a rough 9 billion people, something of the line of 50 years, if China does'nt stop birth control. ;)
Problem now is basicly distribution, (almost everything in our rich countries, and nothing in the third world) bad distribution of resources and knowledges.
I have to shut PC now, but I guess some more info can be found in FAO site, I remember some calculation was made couple of years ago.
Anyway not a good reason to play lemmings, no? ;)
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I hope we all can live in peace............CRAP!, I think I burnt my fingers typing that.
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"All human life is precious"... right up to the point there's barely any food left and we're all fighting each other for scraps.
I'll be OK, cause I eat FAST.
Do a google search on Malthus if you want to read more about how we have all already starved to death long ago.
ra
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Yeah Malthus got 0wn3d.
Cyrano
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I really don't care, it was a diversionary tactic.
This war BS has gone on long enough, it's going to happen, lets talk about something else grim for a change.
Like how plagues and famine tend to wipe out a good amount of the human population whenever we get close to overpopulation.
-SW