Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on March 19, 2003, 07:01:34 AM
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I'm getting better with the various 109Gx planes - usually the 109G2 or 109G10. The weaknesses seem to be the "compression" that occurs at high speed, and lacklustre elevator response at any speed (makes getting guns solution difficult). So I focus on its strengths: Excellent climb rate and E retention in zooms. These traits make it a great stealth aircraft - fly at speed, and when a bogie zooms up to rebounce his quarry, the 109Gx can follow him up and catch him at or near the top of his zoom. Most of my kills come like that - an example film is attached. (I had to clip the film to the bare minimum to make it fit on the BBS)
As a 1-v-1 plane, it's not so good. I had two excellent encounters with TAK in his 190D9 the other day, and whereas the 109G10 was able to maintain an alt advantage, and catch up to the Dora, there was no way for me to follow it in a hard break turn. The Dora is faster, and I was having to go flat out to catch it, so the elevator was unresponsive to say the least at the moment the Dora made its break turn. All I could do was zoom up, then give chase once again. I did try anticipating the break turn, and got quite close, but still not enough elev. authority to finish the job.
I'm not asking for advice here. That is always forthcoming in threads like this. ;) What I want instead is your 109Gx films like the one I have attached here. I see some of you getting 6,7 - even 10 kills in a sortie. I would like to see how you did it. I never have enough ammo for that many kills, even with the gondolas. I've seen CRESCENT get 7 - and mention that because he's the target in my 109G2 film.
Send me your films via email. (orangebeet1e@yahoo.co.uk)
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I get an invalid or old film file error,
I am using an old version of AH though, perhaps that's it
My viewer is version 1 patch 2
wipass
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It's all in the trimming Beet1e ;)
The 109 doesen't have a compression problem, the controls just get very heavy at high-speeds. At 400+ mph I almost fly by trimming alone.
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Like Gscholz said it's in the trim.I use manual trimming and the compression problem isn't so bad.I like to pull lead using manual trim,as it can give you that lil extra you need for the shot.
Dobe
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First thing i would do is work on high yoyo turns.... When any enemy breaks nose low you should hard wire yourself to always high yoyo then lag pursuit to follow him... This way your maintaining advantage by remaining on his 6 while misering your e state... This method is superior to the immelman then re-engage becuase it keeps the heat on the enemy and is less passive.
His only options are to bleed e and try to hard nose turn at you... (head on) or slow down and try to force a overshoot...
The g series has one of the best rudders in the game... Use it a a brake when someone trys to force a overshoot. with a little throttle adjusment you can saddle on anyone. anyplane out there wih exception of the zeke spit5 hurricane etc....( can even saddle on those too just not as long.)
Then you use the acceleration to run them down....
Practice your spiral climbs until its second nature... also map your trim to a hat switch or keycombinations... trim is necessary when your plane goes over 400 ias....
Dont take gondolas.... (I prefer the 1 20mm 2 mg's) 109f4
Gondolas will neuter your plane... The basic gun package is plenty...
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Enjoy the tips....
DoctorYo
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"Franz" it is! Best fighter IMHO. Just love that lil' thing.
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The Messerschmitt 109 was the Luftwaffe's standard fighter throughout WWII, and the production of the Bf 109 was larger than that of any other fighter. It was a quite revolutionary design, the smallest aircraft that could be built around a powerful engine. The 109-E "Emil" was one of the best fighters in the world, on a par with the Spitfire. The 109-F "Friedrich" was the best dogfighter of all the 109s. Friedrich was the main fighter type of the Luftwaffe when the German army attacked the Soviet Union in the summer of 1941. The 109-G "Gustav" was the most heavily produced varient of the 109 series, inparticular more 109-G6s were produced then any other. Wartime development tried to make the plane a more suitable bomber interceptor. This largely failed due to the small size of the airframe. Instead of a sleek and maneuverable interceptor the plane became known as "The Flying Blister" due to all the modifications done on the airframe. The K was the last series-produced model.
All 109's, regardless of version, share numerous traits:
- Excellent climb rate
- Good rudder response
- Excellent performance between 12 and 22k
- Above average low speed handling
- Good negative-G handling
- Good Acceleration
- Below Average visibility from the cockpit
- Not particularly "new pilot friendly"
- Moderate to low ammunition supply
- Heavy Controls above 640km/h
- Mediocre durability
All 109s are best flown as Energy fighters - using its high climb rate to dictate the engagement. Normal Boom & Zoom tactics with very high speed passes do not suit the 109's style. It is better suited to the style of energy combat where the main objective is to set up a moderate altitude advantage right over or near the target. Then use short sprint dives with moderate closure rates for gun passes. The 109 can then climb back out and loop or climb away as necessary.
The 109g6 and g2 are really effective if you have a wingman
Loose Duece
With "Loose Duece" style of fighting one fighter is attacking the enemy. He attempts to maneuver for a shot, or to bleed the enemy's energy, or force him into a disadvantageous position. The other pilot stays above and covers the attacker. If the attacker overshoots or extends the other pilot can then dive in and engage. In the mean time the originally attacker takes position above. The idea is usually for only one plane to be committed at one time; the other, keeping position above , is there to ensure the SA for the entire pair and to watch the 6 of the engaged pilot so he concentrate his full attention on killing the enemy. The planes continue alternating positions until the enemy is killed or the overall tactical situation changes. Its important that the pilot above make the call as to when to disengage. He has a clearer picture of the situation and the attacker must trust his judgement. Communication between the pair are important. The attacker should let the other pilot know when he plans to disengage so that the perched pilot can take up the attack. Timing needs to be correct so the enemy doesnt have time to recover. Keeping the pressure on is important to get a quick kill. Prolonged dogfights can turn bad quickly.
Double Attack
Double Attack is a derivative of Loose Deuce. The pair still will switch rolls when necessary but the other pilot is more actively involved in the attack, not just waiting on the perch until the engaged pilot calls him down. This approach demands very close contact, and communication is very important. We will fly mostly Loose Deuce but will utilize the Double Attack for situations where we are reasonably sure that we have time to get the kill.
With Double Attack each member will have to be able handle his responsibilities and understand when to switch. It is important to keep SA not just for the enemy but for each other. You dont want to killshooter youself or your wingman. When setting up a Double Attack in a 2 vs.1 its best to "bracket" the enemy. The two fighters split slightly away from each other in order to get on either side of the enemy. This way what ever way the enemy breaks one of the pair can saddle up. The idea here is for the pair to keep their energy state up and pressure of the enemy. If the enemy is making wild evasives the pilot attacking doesnt need to bleed energy to stay on his 6. He can break off and reposition while the other pilot takes up the attack. This type of attack doesnt allow the pair to maintain the greatest SA. So its important not to enter into a double attack unless you are reasonably sure the area is clear.
Heres a Double attack film
http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/4JG53/films/Double%20Attack.zip
If end up flying on trim the whole time then you arent flying a 109 right. Theres no need to high speed BnZ style dives. Coming in 2 or 3 k above the frey and picking out a target then using a short sprint dive to gain closure is what you want to do.
Use the 109s rudder to aid in getting a gun solution on breaking enemy. Use your climb to reposition if you miss, (yo yo wing over etc.) The thing about e fighting is you are trying to "trick the other guy into bleeding out his e by maintaining your own.
In the main with 500 folks its highly unlikely that you would want to get into a pro longed dogfight. You need to learn to hit what you fire at. If you have wingman you can tag team him by switching on and off.
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There was no Franz, the 109f was Fritz,,,, ie Friedrich.
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Check you sources Batz, the F was called both Franz and Frederick, depending on unit.
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Franz was on the backseat of the Ju87s, Emil was the pilot. Therefore the german term "verfranzen" (getting lost - failing to do navigation). It was always blamed on Franz ;)
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lol!
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ccvi is right as am I
so check your "wrong" sources again then throw them away.
109F F = Fritz
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Check under nicknames ...
http://www.bf109.com/evolution.html
I just love this little thing ...
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its still wrong Franz has been used post war by folks who didnt know the difference.
Fritz ie Friedrich are correct.
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Please post your source.
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It's a common mistake that people call it Franz. It's 100% defintally Fritz.
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I'll dig out my books when I get from work but I am 100% correct.
In the mean time go over to Butch's site and ask.
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Ok, I can be wrong, I'm certainly not an expert on the subject. I just find it strange that "Franz" is used so much in aircraft history circles, and sims. Even Air Warrior called it "Franz". These people should know better I suppose. I will call it "Fritz" from now on ... just to be sure ;)
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"Fritz" is shorthand for "Friedrich".
You can call it Franz is you want but as ccvi pointed out Franz was widely used aviator slang referring to the navigator on multi crewed planes.
Thus:
"verfranzen", "to franz off" = "to make a navigational error and get lost"
:)
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I'll take your word for it. "Fritz" it is. Still love the damn thing! :)
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Gentlemen! Thanks for your posts. :D
Yes, the TRIM issue. I have a MSW Prec Pro stick, and I don't have a trim slider, but I have set the two small thumb control buttons to trim up and trim down - see pic.
Batz - I viewed the film - thanks. Yes, that's the kind of thing I'm doing.
Lots of advice - greatly appreciated - but only one .AHF film so far. Start shooting them (films as well as cons!) and post'em to me. :)
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The G10 is 10 times the plane the dora is 1v1. It climbs better, turns better, accelerates better.. The only way a dora will out turn you is gas, but he'd need to have a sliver left and you need to keep your DT.. heh. Even then a dora out turning you sustained is a stretch. If you're going faster to begin with, his initial turn radius will be smaller.. Or if he starts turning and you start making a turn when he's almost perpendicular to you, then he'll out turn you. Any other way, you'll turn better.
My advice is to just find a member of the "109Gx experten" and ask them to go to the DA with you. Depending on who you're with, you can probably get the said "experten" to tell you what you're doing wrong.
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wetrat - OK, so if the G10 is 10 times better than a Dora, you should be able to find one to kill quite easily in a 1v1. Do that, film it of course, and send the film to me.
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Originally posted by GScholz
It's all in the trimming Beet1e ;)
It sure is Gscholtz...it sure is ;)
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Originally posted by beet1e
wetrat - OK, so if the G10 is 10 times better than a Dora, you should be able to find one to kill quite easily in a 1v1. Do that, film it of course, and send the film to me.
Ok, next time I get Urchin in the DA I'll do a G10 vs dora and film it.
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My take on it is that the 109G10 is probably one of the best 1v1 planes we have in the game. It has an advantage over every other plane we have- the advantage might be different for each plane, but it does have an 'edge' over them. It is just a matter of flying the G10 to its strengths and not to your opponents. Now, in a typical MA environment it isn't so good. It lacks the firepower for a 'quick kill' (unless you get VERY good with the 30mm, and with that it lacks endurance, the gondolas just hurt performance to much to be worth it), turning and manueverability is good but not great, and you can't really get super fast for perpetual bore n zooming (because of poor high speed handling).
The Dora is a superb plane for the MA, but it is less good than the G10 for a 1v1 fight. The Dora packs enough firepower for a 'quick kill' (think 1 pass, cherry-pick, whatever), it has good high speed handling so you can stay a lot faster than the people you are bore n zooming, and it is fast enough to run away from most planes. On the down side, manueverability is just atrocious compared to the G10 (at anything less than high speed, where the G10 will be starting to 'lock up').
A well flown Dora can surprise a lot of planes in a 1v1, but a well flown G10 is just about untouchable by anything other than a Spit 9.
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Originally posted by Urchin
the gondolas just hurt performance to much to be worth it
Hmmph... I've been using the gondolas. Otherwise you have only 150 cannon rounds. The Dora has what - 600? But OK. I'm just about to try it out again on a gondola-free flight. I've got my trimming controls set up properly now too. Never needed that with any other plane (just used auto-speed and auto angle).
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Never use gondolas :)
I only fly the g6 g10 with 30mm
my hit % is at 14.xx this tour
since I came back to ah I mostly fly the g6 and I'm 103 kills and 14 deaths in the g6 since I came back to ah.
The g6 is the worse 109 to fly in the main (well the 109e is but it sux alround).
The 109 series are dogfighters they just arent turn fighters. Maintaining an energy advantage coupled with its climb and acceleration you should be able to handle most planes.
And Urchin is Correct a g10 can handle a d9 in a 1 v 1, unless the d9 dives and runs which he will do in the main.
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The 109g10 is a very capable MA furballer as well as a 1v1 fighter. If flown right. The key is sticking to it, learning to deal with the compression issues and using her strengths. (she is a lady ya know;))
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I did a few gondola-free sorties this morning. I fired only the cannon, and not the BBs. I was a little disappointed at their effectiveness. I gave a B26 a long burst (or as long as you dare with only 150 rounds) but only damaged it. However, I was able to ping out AKAK's P38 engines a couple of times. :D
But I did notice that the plane performed much better without the gondolas.
And Urchin is Correct a g10 can handle a d9 in a 1 v 1, unless the d9 dives and runs which he will do in the main.
Yes, just as I was able to handle the situation in that fight with TAK. But with the gondolas om board, I could not bring my pipper onto the target quickly enough, and he kept diving and running. Was fun though.
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Generally speaking, with the 30's, if you have a good connection, all you'll need is one ping to kill a fighter. If you hit the engine, it might just kill the engine. But if you hit a wing or tailplane, it comes off. Hit the cockpit and you'll get a nifty 'splosion. Keep trying the 30's. They have a nice psychological effect. :)
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BTW, anybody got any info on this plane? I think I read where it's supposed to be a 109g10. Is that true? I've enjoyed this photo for a few years now...
(http://www.bf109.com/gallery/favourites/gall04favemed.jpg)
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hblair that was my background image for one year!
Its great.
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Hblair, you have a larger version of that image?
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Anyone got some spare money? This cute one is for sale (price is not listed):
http://www.mdm-aviation.com/YakovlevYak-11.html
(no idea why the page is called Yak-11....)
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Nice! And DB powered too. Those 109's are rare.
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According to the webpage it's the only flying Emil.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Gentlemen! Thanks for your posts. :D
Yes, the TRIM issue. I have a MSW Prec Pro stick, and I don't have a trim slider, but I have set the two small thumb control buttons to trim up and trim down - see pic.
Batz - I viewed the film - thanks. Yes, that's the kind of thing I'm doing.
Lots of advice - greatly appreciated - but only one .AHF film so far. Start shooting them (films as well as cons!) and post'em to me. :)
Before I got CH HOTAS, I used to keep left hand on keyboard. Too many functions to map them all only on stick. I used keys for views, and joystick hat for trimming.
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Beetle:
If you load only a single 20mm you must fire the 13mm with it as well, this dramatically increases your firepwer and the balistics are very similar.
If you load the 30mm then do not fire the 13mm as balistica are too disimilar.
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Beetle, if you're flying with 1x20mm, you're best off firing both MG's and cannon rounds at the same time. On their own, neither of these weapons do much, but together they hit fairly hard. With 30's, a hit anywhere but the engine will tear it apart. The 30's are much better for a "quick kill", but their balistics are terrible, so really high angle deflection shots against a zeke or a spitV are even more difficult than with the 20's & MG's.
The 109's are not meant to be flown in a sissy-like manner in a close-to-even odds situation. And they're definitely not meant to be flown fast, fast being in excess of 400mph. They're E fighters which are also capable of TnBing the faster, less maneuverable planes, but that's just a waste of it's strengths. Yoyo's, ropes, and hammerheads are the main things you need to get good at to be a decent 109 pilot (other things too, but those are the things you'll most likely do more often).
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Well thanks, guys. I know a lot more now than I did before this thread started.
So the gondolas are the 30mm, and the nose cannon is a 20mm? That would explain why I needed two passes to kill a P38. Firing only the cannon, I got multiple hits in a pass from his 4 to his 10 - black smoke from both engines, and a fuel leak. Needed a second pass to finish the job - wish I'd filmed it.
I'm getting better at it through practice, and it's quite a nice plane so I enjoy it. I like learning about different planes, and discovering their strengths. Of course, if I was a scoremonger, I'd jump in a lala7 each sortie, or spawn camp in a GV. ;)
hblair mentioned connection, and for years I languished with a connect of 400ms+ playing WB. With AH I began with 200ms, but now that I have ADSL/broadband, I'm getting around 140ms.
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No the gondolas are 20mm just like the 20mm engine cannon.
The 30mm is an option for engine cannon.
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Gruen is right
if you have the 20 mm hub cannon then fire all guns together. Even the 7mm on the g2 helps the 20.
13mm can kill planes as well.
if you take 30mm then fire it seperate.
Gondolas are mg151/20mm slung under the wing. They add weight and effect turn and roll.
They give you added fire power but limit your manuverability.
109s are not spray pray planes. They idea is to learn to land hits at every opportunity.
On bombers aim for their wing tips.
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Originally posted by GScholz
It's all in the trimming Beet1e ;)
The 109 doesen't have a compression problem, the controls just get very heavy at high-speeds. At 400+ mph I almost fly by trimming alone.
Question? why is trim so important in AH? When all trim does is take pressure of the stick.
Trim shouldn't make your plane turn better. Not when the stick is doing all the same things that trim does only faster.
The only problem is that with the stick there should be alot of pressure when air flow over parts make it so.
So pulling the stick should be easier than turning the wheel for trim. of couse this is MHO.
So in conclusion you shouldnt be able to fly a plane with trim because the same forces are the same on stick and trim wheels.
In fact the trim wheels should be harder to turn because your only using one hand and on the stick you should be able to use both hands and body to move it.
unless the wheels use hydraulics to move elevators or ailerons.
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Who said trim makes you turn better?
I dont see that anywhere in this thread.
In ah above 640kmh the controls on the 109 become stiff. Eventually you will compress competely.
Trim relieves some of the stick force needed to pull out of the dive. But trim on a 109 moved the whole horizontal surface so by trimming the plane you will pull out of the dive.
In ah trim isnt important at all. Theres a feature called combat trim. This is there because of the difficulty in simulating stick forces in the game.
Also in AH trimming doesnt move a surface any further then it can go in rl. That is full deflection is full deflection. Trim doesnt let you turn better.
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Rgr Batz!
I was up practising again tonight. You're right - deflection shots do bugger all in a 109G10. It has to be the Hartmann style of getting VERY close, and dropping the round on target. Seems that the 30mm was designed for downing buffs, so that's what I've been going after. Getting the merge trajectory right can be tough, but see what you think of the attached effort. I forgot to fire the 30mm only at this group of B17s, and was firing the BBs in addition to the hub cannon. The first one folded as I shot the wing off, but the second one lit up but did not exhibit any damage. I welcome your comments! :)
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Originally posted by Batz
Who said trim makes you turn better?
I dont see that anywhere in this thread.
In ah above 640kmh the controls on the 109 become stiff. Eventually you will compress competely.
Trim relieves some of the stick force needed to pull out of the dive. But trim on a 109 moved the whole horizontal surface so by trimming the plane you will pull out of the dive.
In ah trim isnt important at all. Theres a feature called combat trim. This is there because of the difficulty in simulating stick forces in the game.
Also in AH trimming doesnt move a surface any further then it can go in rl. That is full deflection is full deflection. Trim doesnt let you turn better.
Trim relieve some of the stick force needed to pull out of the dive. But trim on the 109 moved the whole horizontal surface so by trimming the plane you will pull out of the dive.
Sure but you need to trim the plane before diving and hold the stick forward in dive so the trim used would work in getting you out of the dive. Is this how it should work?
Just wondering if the horizontal suface is hard to move using the stick shouldn't it be just as hard using the trim wheels. or device used to use trim.
" in ah trim isnt important at all."
If that were so then you wouldn't have to use trim in the 109 to get it to turn at speeds above 600kmh.
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109's don't actually compress in a dive. It's difficult to pull a 109 out of a dive in AH to simulate the stick stiffening up. The control surfaces are still effective, but in real life you'd have to be quite strong to get the stick back.
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Originally posted by Griego
So pulling the stick should be easier than turning the wheel for trim. of couse this is MHO.
Compare:
- size of the elevator vs. size of the trim tab on the elevator
- transmission between deflection of the stick/elevator to turns of the trim wheel needed to deflect the trim tab
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Originally posted by Batz
... But trim on a 109 moved the whole horizontal surface so by trimming the plane you will pull out of the dive.
Also in AH trimming doesnt move a surface any further then it can go in rl. That is full deflection is full deflection. Trim doesnt let you turn better.
Are you sure it moves the whole stabilizer? If so, there should be a difference between trimmed nose heavy fully pulled stick and trimmed tail heavy fully pulled stick.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Hblair, you have a larger version of that image?
look here
http://www.bf109.com/frameset.html
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Thanks, I should have known :)
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Hi Beetle I like 109s as well after the P38:-). Try triming to avoid compressing. Also G2 and G10 are great climbers and can outclimb out of trouble even against a dora. check the planes stats out specially the G10 you will be supprised how fast and how hard it can climb on wep. Check stats here (http://www.netaces.org/ahplanes/comparisons/comparisons.html#title)
Hope this helps and have films of G10 against other fighters if you would like I can send them to you
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I made a 1280x960 pixel version of the 109G picture and smoothed out some of the faults. If anyone is interested I can e-mail it to you (too big to post).
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The availability of "good" 109 photos is nonexistant. With the exception of a few shots of Black 6 there is no good photos out there. Two shots of the G10 and that's about it, along with an occasional McKenna shot. The rest are grainy poorly shot photos.
Black 6 in the desert paint isn't the best representation of a 109 in my view.
It's sad. Jeez if a GOOD still photographer would have been used during the filming of Battle of Britain in 1969 the photos he could have shot. If I remember right they had 16 up and flying for the film. Hispanos yes, but think of the photos that could have been shot. Just think of the opening scene when the 109's came through jumping fences.. Never again..
Rework of one of the few "ok" shots out there taking out all the spots and reducing the grain. 1024
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Thanks for all the advice, guys.
OK, this is the story so far. I tried the 109G10 with only the 20mm cannon (150 rounds at start). It doesn't last long, although the plane probably flew better than with the gondolas. But I do feel that in this configuration, the guns lack the punch that you need in a game like ours.
So then I changed the config to the 30mm hub cannon, and flew for a couple of hours. Sure, one ping is all you need to down most fighters - a P47 needed more than one, and buffs need several. Again, the ammo does not last long. BUT!!! - it's so hard to get those 30mm rounds on target. You have to get in very close, and what I found was that the bogie pilot HEARD my plane (at 100 yards) before he saw it! :eek: Instantly, the bogie would break off... Also with the 30mm, one can forget about deflection shots. If you disagree, perhaps you could submit film to substantiate your point of view?
So I'm back with the gondolas. With this config, I can begin shooting at 400 yards, not 200 or 100 as with the 30mm.
I find that downing a buff with the gondolas on is as effective as the 30mm hub cannon config. because I can fire for longer without depleting my ammo.
The G10 does not fly as well with the gondolas, but in view of the other considerations, I think the gondola config. is the one I like best.
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The 109's are not meant to be spray 'n pray planes (excluding the 7mm's on the earlier 109's - but they hardly do anything anyway). They're for precision shooting. If you're a good shot and fly the G10 with 1x20mm, you can land 10 kills (without vulching) with ammo to spair. By good shot I mean shooting 20%+. If you need to spray to get kills and want to be able to get more than 3 or 4 a sortie, then the 109 isn't the plane for you.
As for the 30mm, they're very difficult to hit with. Deflection shots are possible, but it requires a significant amount of lead turning, which, if the con notices, can get you killed. As I've said before, 2x13mm and 1x20mm packs a pretty good punch if you hit a wing or tail. It's true that carrying gondolas adds a whole lot of punch, but firing at d450 or whatever it is you said is very wasteful. MG 151's are NOT very effective above 400. While it is more likely that you can kill in a snapshot if you carry the gondolas, it is more difficult to get that shot due to the reduced performance. Taking 3x20mm is great for hitting buffs or even HO jousting if you swing that way... but if you are a good shot and plan to spend any significant amount of time in a 109, you need to get used to either 1x20mm or 1x30mm.
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best place to fly the 109 is CT where the matchups are more historic and you can appreciate the planes ability to fly against what it was designed to fly against.
drop in there now and take the 109f with a dt and 25% fuel for a blast against the cane, p40e and spitV
for alittle more speed and less turn - grab the g2. to knock some A20's down or if the inbound ftrs aren't aces - strap on the gonds and have at it...
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Has anyone flown the plane in iL2 forgotten battles. It seems that the trim issue in il2 is non-existent.
Just curious how to sims can be so different. dive a 109g-10 there and there is no trim issues.
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Originally posted by wetrat
If you're a good shot and fly the G10 with 1x20mm, you can land 10 kills (without vulching) with ammo to spair.
Rgr that, wetrat. But I am not looking for words - I am looking for film. You go and fly that 10 kill sortie, and post the film on here, and then I will believe it.
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My 109G10 recomendations:
1 - Use 3x20mm. With gondolas you will still be capable of beat anything in the vertical plane and you will have a good chance to kill buffs in one pass.
2 - Rudder is a primary control for rolling, dont forget that.
3 - Use manual trim all the time.
4 - 75% fuel plus a DT will give you enough range for long CAP missions. You will easily traverse more than four quadrants climbing to 20k.
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A few of my 400+ films have high killing G10 sorties in them, but I don't really feel like sifting through them just because some guy doesn't believe me. Also, I just saw you say you packed it in with the 109's and are flying juggs... not motivating me to look through them :p
And mandoble... why the hell would you bother climbing to 20k in a G10? If there's any plane you don't need alt in, that's it.
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Originally posted by wetrat
A few of my 400+ films have high killing G10 sorties in them, but I don't really feel like sifting through them just because some guy doesn't believe me.
I was afraid you'd take it like that! :p It's not that I don't believe you, but you have to understand that a lot of guys are full of yap and post here about how they did this and that, but when asked to back it up with film evidence they suddenly go quiet. Look at this thread - well over 50 responses, but only TWO people have done what I asked in the initial posting, and sent films. I want films rather than words because then I can see how you did it. I would have thought that 10 kills in a G10 was exceptional, and that you would have given the .AHF file a distinctive name so you could find it easily in the future. Hardly seems worth keeping 400 films if you don't know how to find the one you're looking for. Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Rudder is a primary control for rolling, dont forget that.
Yuck, that sounds horrible! You're kidding me, right? I have 900 hours private pilot experience, and the thought of using rudder as the primary control for rolling makes me feel ill. Sure, the secondary effect of rudder (ie. too much) is a wing drop, but I hardly think of it as controlled flight. Is this something that just works in flight sims, or are you saying that real 109 pilots flew like this?
Anyway, folks. I went back to the P47D25. It works for me better than the 109G10, and I got 10 kills in my first two sorties. The elevator is MUCH more responsive, and the Jug does not "compress" in a dive. The .50 cals fly much better than 20mm cannon, and certainly better than the 30mm cannon, so it's easier to bring them on target. I like to chase a buff formation, and just as he starts turning he will be preoccupied with the turn, and in any case it would be more difficult to shoot me in a turn. Also, more of the buffs will be visible, and I can get a nice deflection shot. The 109G10 is not good at that, and it is necessary for the pilot to get much closer - greatly increasing the risk of being shot by the gunners. The drawback with the P47 is of course the climb rate, but it's a good hunting plane. This morning I had 20 kills without loss - until I got sucked into diving on an ackstar...
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Originally posted by wetrat
And mandoble... why the hell would you bother climbing to 20k in a G10?
It is crystal clear in my post, just an example of range with DT + 75%.
beet1e, I'm not kidding, with 109, rudder is far more important than ailerons when scissoring, you will bank the plane right and left mainly with the rudder, 109 ailerons are only averagely "effective" at low speeds, but still you will be in big dissadvantage (roll) against most planes using only ailerons.
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Originally posted by wetrat
And mandoble... why the hell would you bother climbing to 20k in a G10? If there's any plane you don't need alt in, that's it.
The g10 can boom'n'zoom from below ;)
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Originally posted by ccvi
The g10 can boom'n'zoom from below ;)
That's what I was implying :p
And beetle, 10 kills in a G10 isn't really exceptional, except for on maps like pizza and trinity. On a map with good, low alt fights a G10 can just rack them up. That's until some dork in a niki comes in 10k above the fight, of course.
I'll start sifting through my films while I eat, and when we get to the next rotation of trinity. The one thing that stops me from getting 10+ in a G10 more often than anything else is the gas mileage.
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MANDOBLE, wetrat - comments noted!
By the way, I haven't abandoned the 109G10. It's a worthy buff killer, but the P47D25 is better IMO for the reasons I gave.
I still think the 109G10 just doesn't have the control response to mix it with those planes which definitely do - 190D9, Spit... but I am happy to go into a gaggle and use stealth - zooming up to pick off cons that haven't seen me, or going in pursuit of something like a P51, and catching up to him as he zooms. This is where the 109G10 excels like no other.
wetrat - something you said yesterday that I'd like to comment on. I'll try to send you a private mail.
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When I flew the G10 more a year or so ago I could get 600 yard deflection shots with the 30mm only using a few rounds. Now I'm not saying its easy to do that but it can be done if you get a feel for the gun.
And I have no why you would to take a 109 to 20k, they are best in the 5k to 15k area. The high alt environment make them stall to easily and spits begin to outclimb you.
I'm sad you gave up on the 109.
As for the rudder roll thing he has a point. With the AH fm rudder use really speeds up rolling rate plus the 109s stability at low alt lets you do a sort of half snap to get a killing deflection shot. I pretty much always 0rtb when I loose rudder in a 109.
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Hehe Grunherz, I still have a 1-0 K/D on you in the 109 ... or any other plane for that matter! ;)
Still remember your ch1 message: "lol you!" :D
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I love getting shot down by my bbs buddies... :D Yea I rember that sortie - got into the evil "MUST KILL THAT GUY" mood vs the Typhoon and ignored my six for too long.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
When I flew the G10 more a year or so ago I could get 600 yard deflection shots with the 30mm only using a few rounds.
... and the film is where? ;) I'd be very surprised if I ever saw that done. The cannon rounds simply don't fly well enough to make that viable - not just the deflection, but getting a hit at that range. In WB, for example, you had to close to less than 200 yards to stand a chance of landing cannon on target from a 109. OK, different game but - Erich Hartmann's method was to close until the bogie filled his windscreen, and then fire. Gabreski even makes the same point about the P47 - the key was to get very close. So to land a cannon round from a 600 yard deflection shot sounds like game-reality porkage. That, or an extreme fluke.
109G10 good for killing buffs - they are often at high alt hence the need to get to 20K.
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I dont film my fights. I do have witnesees though for my best ever shot - ask animal if he rembers that mustang I shot of his tail some time ago. Was a 90 degree 30mm snapsdhot shot at well over 600 yards. :D
The distance in the diagonal when I fired was close to 1000 yards and it only took 2 rounds. Now of course there was luck involved but I did specifically aim that shot.
Even I filmed it you wouldnt learn anything, more than any otrher gun the 30mm requres you get the feel for it. Even a few weeks of not fling the 30mm I get very very bad with it. In other words you have to practice.
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Lol, yeah that happens to me too. Usually the bastidge drags me all the way back to his home field and I have to dodge flak and other bastidges to get him. Always ends the same way, but once in a while I drag him down with me. :D When I saw you zoom up after that Tiffie I thought "oh yes, another one bites the dust". Haven't seen you in the MA after that. You don't fly much, or we just having bad luck?
The 108 won't fit. My 109 is too small. :(
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I dont film my fights. I do have witnesees though for my best ever shot - ask animal if he rembers that mustang I shot of his tail some time ago. Was a 90 degree 30mm snapsdhot shot at well over 600 yards. :D
The distance in the diagonal when I fired was close to 1000 yards and it only took 2 rounds. Now of course there was luck involved but I did specifically aim that shot.
Even I filmed it you wouldnt learn anything, more than any otrher gun the 30mm requres you get the feel for it. Even a few weeks of not fling the 30mm I get very very bad with it. In other words you have to practice.
GRUN - I maintain that in real life, the scenario you depict would have been highly unlikely. One of my old WB buddies (now gone to IL2) once described the AH guns as "a cruel joke", and it's events like the one you describe that make me realise exactly what he means. How much did a 30mm round weigh ??? I'd love to know how the 30mms were used in the war, and how many were used successfully in 1000 yard shots.
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I doubt a 30 mm (potato) would be worth a damn after travelling that far! but up close, it's a killer.
I would have thought that 10 kills in a G10 was exceptional, and that you would have given the .AHF file a distinctive name so you could find it easily in the future. Hardly seems worth keeping 400 films if you don't know how to find the one you're looking for.
I dunno.. I never name mine and have prolly thousands.
I simply never take the time... I play, quit... then go on with life.
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I'm sure it would have no trouble blowing through thin alumim skin at over 600 yards - and it would certaily detonate.
Beetle I know that the AH gunnery model has issue with long range shooting for all the guns. I have even killed P47s with 2 x13mm on 109 at 850 yards.... :D
But as far as AH is concerned a 600 yard 30mm hit is possible, even that 90 degree delection shou I made at over 600.
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The one thing I think is really cool about Forgotten Battles is that the Hispanos on the Hurricane IIC there work almost exactly like the ones in Aces High. They have a relatively straight firing arc, and they shred enemy planes in one snapshot.
Looks like Maddox agrees about the uberness of the Hizookas after all. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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yep, that's ONE of the really cool things about FB
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Gondolas aren't really a good idea, in my opinion. Take the 109G10. Take the main arena.
Ok, 109G10 vs La7. La7 is faster, accelerates better, climbs the same, turns better, rolls better, and has more firepower. Difference in performance? I'd say an average la7 pilot could beat a good 109G10 pilot about 7 of 10 or so.
Now take the gondolas and put them on. Now the la7 is still faster, climbs better, turns a LOT better, still rolls better, and has roughly the same firepower. I'd say an average la7 pilot would beat a good G10 pilot with gondolas about 9 of 10 times.
G10 vs P51D. Speeds are roughly similar, 109 accelerates a lot better, P51 turns a lot better, P51 rolls better, P51 has more firepower. I'd say a fight between 2 good pilots would probably go the P51's way about 6/4 or so.
G10 with gondolas vs. P51D. P51 is faster. 109 still accelerates better, P51 still turns better (by a wider margin), P51 rolls better (by a wider margin), 109G10 has marginally more firepower. I'd still give odds to the P51 pilot, probably around the same odds as without gondolas.
G10 vs Spit 9. G10 is a lot faster, acceleration is roughly similar, the G10 climbs better at low alt, with the Spit closing the gap as altitude increases (at low level the G10 should easily outclimb a Spit 9, which is really the only applicable alt), Spit turns a lot better, Spit has a lot more firepower. A good G10 pilot vs a good Spit 9 pilot is probably a draw. Call it 5/5, although most fights would be stalemated.
G10 with gondolas. G10 is still faster, Spit accelerates better, the G10 still climbs better but it has nowhere near the margin of superiority it had (and it may catch a Hizooka round in the bellybutton for trying to outzoom or spiral climb a Spit 9), Spit still turns and rolls better... and spit STILL has more firepower. I'd say a good apit 9 pilot would probably kick the crap out of a good 109 pilot with gondolas, simply because the gondolas ruin the vertical performance of the 109.
G10 vs N1K. Basically the same fight as a spit. Same strengths and weaknesses, although the G10 definately outaccelerates the N1K. Firepower goes to the N1K.
G10 with gondolas vs N1K. Still the same strengths and weaknesses- the gondolas hurt vertical performance enough that I wouldnt try to spiral climb or zoom away, because you'll get killed. Firepower still goes to the N1K.
And for those of you wondering how I calculate 'firepower' I just assign the .50 caliber a value of 1 and then compare weapons based on about how many .50s they are worth. An Mg151 is about 2 .50s, a Hispano is about 4, the la7s and N1K cannons are also around 2, the Mg131 is about .75. No, it isnt real scientific, but it works in my opinion.
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Originally posted by wetrat
On a map with good, low alt fights a G10 can just rack them up. That's until some dork in a niki comes in 10k above the fight, of course.
ROFL wetrat! This morning I went up in a G10, killed a P51, then went after another 109. He chose to fight me and we had an excellent scissors fight. I think he lost track of where I was momentarily, and that was the half chance I needed to get him. But he was good - MACZ. And then - a N1K arrived 10K above the fight - LOL! I hoped the 109 could accelerate away from him but it couldn't. I pulled up hard in an immelmann and tried to accelerate away on the reciprocal heading - no good. He got me - dzd.
URCHIN!!! Many thanks for that cracking piece of analysis. I shall print it off and read it many times. An example to the rest. Here's a guy who has done his homework and has quantified it with figures, instead of just yapping. One of the best posts I have ever read in this forum.
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Urchin, I basically agree with you in your comparative. But, while all the adversaries you mentioned are more than capable of killing any buff with a single pass, any 109 1x20mm is going to have a hard time trying the same.
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When I attack someone, its usually a fast fly up his butt while he is preoccupied and waste hit with the the 30mm, then land and get mo ammo, and do it again. If i am forced to get in a bog fight with somthin like a zeke or niki, i run away then shadow them just outa radar range , then attack when he is a few miles from base:D (MUHAHAHA).
My ways for victory:
1) gun pods are a NONO unless u are strafing a defenselass field with cover.
2)Don't dog fight unless u abolutely know u can win without using to much gas up (you'll need it to fun from his freinds).:)
3)When in doubt, RUN. FAST.
and thats how I win alot.:cool:
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Beet1e, On the question of use of rudder I tend to agree with Mandoble, use of rudder is practically mandatory on the G10. Remember your 'Effects of controls' exercise. Secondary effect of rudder is roll not wingdrop. It definitely helps to turn the beast and get the guns to bear. Like you I fly light aircraft, they don't use rudder much. You can pretty much fly them with your feet on the floor but old taildraggers with big engines needed nifty footwork. I don't know if Hartmann and his ilk used the technique but it works here.
I have only just begun to use the G10 so I'm no experten but I find it a stable gun platform at speed. I invariably only get caught out when I try to get into a turning fight with Spits and La7's.
I like the beast and it's ability to climb out of trouble. It will kill you if you don't respect it's limitations though. Nevertheless once or twice I got on the tail of someone and smirked grimly as he twisted and turned, all to no avail. I like that. I'm no Hartmann even though I share 75% of his name but I'm getting there. I collected three air to air kills in the space of a single pass down an enemy runway with that big cannon and ran away fast. Very satisfying.
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My ways for victory:
1) gun pods are a NONO unless u are strafing a defenselass field with cover.
2)Don't dog fight unless u abolutely know u can win without using to much gas up (you'll need it to fun from his freinds).
3)When in doubt, RUN. FAST.
As long as it doesn't get you bored to death, have it your way :o
That's the reason I dislike fighting the D9 so much. Most pilots think an E fighter means arriving at 20k, diving through the fight at 500mph, take a shot and run away screeming.
The 109 has so much more to offer then "bore & flee". the 109 is one of my worst rides, but I enjoy the G2 since it's style and ACM is SO different from the P-47.
Bozon
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Remember your 'Effects of controls' exercise. Secondary effect of rudder is roll not wingdrop.
I barely remember it! It was 20 years ago. :D I learned to fly on gliders. My dual ride was a K13, and I flew my first solo in that, then progressed to the single seat K8 (lol) and then "glass ships" - the Astir. Well as you know, the British weather is not conducive to good soaring conditions, and I am not the world's most patient man, so I moved on to get a motor glider rating and started flying longer distances, then added the landplanes rating so that I could fly around Europe. The relevance of this? Well, as you say, the powered planes need very little rudder. Yes you probably could keep your feet on the floor, but co-ordinated flight is much nicer. I never did get sloppy enough not to use the rudder, because in gliders rudder is very important, and you'll need a lot more of it in turns than you would in something like a Cessna 172.
As for rudder secondary effect being roll, hmmm... In this country, the gliding syllabus includes mandatory spin training. I could not go cross country before I'd performed a solo spin over the airfield, watched by an Official Observer. And the way to initiate the spin? Bring the speed back, almost to stall, then progressively add more and more rudder. The wing would drop, and the glider would go into a spin. And whereas at or near stall, the rudder could be used to pick a wing up, this was frowned upon by the more modern instructors. The classic accident to have in a glider was to come in with too little height, and then to be trying to stretch the glide by slowing down, not banking sufficiently in the final turn and trying to make that turn with too much rudder. Stall/spin could be the tragic result. I'll have to try this out in AH...
Got frustrated again with the 109. One of the problems in AH when trying the Hartmann technique (closing to very close range before taking the shot) is that in this *game*, pilots can adjust sounds, and reduce their own engine sound to a whisper (not an option in WW2!) so that they can HEAR when a 109 is creeping up on them, and many of my Hartmann attempts have been thwarted because the guy then does a break turn. So I had a go in the 190D9 and immediately got 5 kills in the first sortie. Amazing how flying the 109 makes me good in other planes. :confused: The 190D9 seems to have all the advantages of the P47 and 109, without the disadvantages of either. (The way it's modelled in AH is totally different from how it was modelled in WB, and one wonders if it should be on the dweeb list with the LA7, N1K, Yak-9U, TYPH etc. ;)) -Crisp elevator response, good climb rate though not quite as good as 109G10, faster than 109G10, fantastic roll rate (essential for B&Z) and the ability to dive on prey without losing control at speed. I'll still keep going back to the 109s, but more and more I wonder if it's all it's cracked up to be.
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Beet1e, hmm if you flew gliders then you know all about use of rudder.
You're right, the best way to initiate a spin is to add rudder just above the stall. this causes yaw and roll. The wing on the inside of the yaw stalls first. This is the wingdrop. It's cause and effect really. Wingdrop and roll are different. Roll is controlled, wingdrop is loss of control.
Exactly as you say adding rudder in the direction of the turn at a low airspeeds, high angles of attack and low level will kill you. However if you add opposite rudder you get a sideslip which is very useful at times and fun I might add. Maybe it's different for gliders but picking up a dropped wing with opposite rudder is standard recovery procedure at the incipient stage. Use of aileron is frowned upon at the secondary effect of ailerons is yaw which has the same effect as adding rudder on the inside of the turn.
How well all this is modelled in AH I don't know but it's worth checking out.
Using rudder in the turn helps overcome the limitations of the G10's roll rate something which is not a problem with the D9. But I think you make an excellent point. Mastering a difficult aeroplane like the G10 can only help improve your skills with others like the D9.
I look forward to the day I get ten kills on a single flight. Hopefully I will remember to turn on the video.
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Why not climbing up to 20k-24k in a 109g10?
It climbs fast ,and so it isnt a great waste of time.High Bombers are my first goal, when reaching a field that needs to be defended.First i check the high altitude area before diving down to play with the guys.
In my opinion,the g10 makes a good job at high altitude.
Maybe MarkL remembers the day when he called me a cheater. ;)
That was after i outmaneuvered his F6f at 20k.
Regards from Ecke
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I *REALLY* like G-10. Despite being considered a "specialist" kinda plane, I find it quite polivalent as a fighter. You can bore your enemy to death by E-fiting, or you can tangle aggresively with him. Your engine will almost everytime will keep you safe.
From my point of view, is one of the most suitable planes to "turn tables" unlike, for instance (and in my opinion) Pony. You only need to make the attacker loose speed, and you have it.
I only have severe problems when I am bounced by La-7. Rest of the breed, I can deal with quite confidently.
On the rudder issue, in my opinion is the "star" control surface. You can use it to force overshoot, and will work wonders because not only will help on the Z axis, but also will make you really bleed energy. Or you can use it for out-of-plane manouvers and will really screw the bad guy aim.
I like Tater G-10 and no Gondolas. Enough firepower for a zillion kills if shoot properly. And shooting properly with 30mm's holds only one secret: get CLOSE. I never open over 150 yds, even if that means I have to work some extra time on my target.
As for tactics, nothing like the spiral climb. Once you get used to it, It's priceless to see cons trying to keep inside your turn, starting to stall and then, when your speed is 130 knots or so, dive to the then stalling target.... :D
Mind it, I am not the best (or anywhere near) G-10 pilot, these are just some slightly educated ideas after learning to love that beast.
I hope you find it useful :)
Regards,
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Beetle to get the effect of the Hartman escape the best thing to do is "skid" with your rudder before you push the stick to the upper left.
This will bleed some e and create a faster closure rate for the attacker. Slowly go full left rudder and hold wings level. You will "skid" and as the attacker closes slam your stick to the upper left (or upper right). You are basically doing a diving oblique "outside loop". What should happen as the bandit closes on you at high speed you slip down below his nose and he will "red out" trying to follow. If he continues straight and climbs he will have lost visual on you. Now if you continued this till you are near verticle you can roll and slip away in the opposite direction.
The trick to this is to use rudder toward the direction you intend to break. You will skid just a bit then enter your "outside loop". This is a quick manuver you dont wanna enter it to soon or the bandit will have no trouble maintaining a visual and setting up for his next pass.
This an "Escape Manuver" used to create seperation so you can extend.
If you are high enough, there is a great escape maneuver that can sometimes even turn the tables on the spit. A diving scissors is what we will call this for now until I see the real name in a book or some other text. This maneuver capitalizes on the 109's smaller turn radius. So, begin a standard split esse, and apply hard down rudder (assuming your view plain is perpendicular to the horizon at this point) as you roll so that your split esse is beginning before you are actually inverted. Pull hard, very hard out of your split esse until you see the horizon again, now roll over inverted again (using rudder again to start the dive early) and repeat this until you will actually cross paths with the spit going in opposite directions (assuming he tryed to match this maneuver and kept his throttle up). If you're still feeling gutsy you now can go vertical, and see what he does, or a wiser choice may be to keep going straight and run for home.
A spiral dive also works well. If the attacker is fast begin a left break taking it tighter as he closes. Keep your nose slightly down and spiral dive keeping as tight as possible. Depending on the attackers speed his turning circle will be wide. After a few turns locate the spit and level and extend away in the opposite direction. Get your speed up and extend away to reasses.
Lets suppose your are at 12k and a bandit is moving into position at your high 6. Now since the bandit is higher then you when he attacks he will be moving much faster. With his speed advantage if he misses his pass expect him to climb into a pitch back manuver. As he closes roll to the left and give your stick some back pressure. You want to time this just right so the bandit doesnt have a chance to get a shot at you. For .50 cal planes and depending on the rate of closure d600 is when I begin this. Now the attacker may cheat a little and try follow your turn for a second to get a better guns solution. What you wanna do is start a barrel roll back in the opposite direction. Keep your barrel roll tight enough so as the bandit blows through you will roll onto his 6 and in range for a snapshot. Now if you miss him he will climb and you may end up in an even worse position. So dont miss.
The key to getting the most out of the 109s is its rudder authority. Kick that rudder in the direction of any break, roll or turn.
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Below is basically written for a g6 but can apply to all 109s.
The most effective way to kill a Spitfire is to dive from above to behind and below his level 6. Then pull up to shoot him from underneath. Diving directly at him from his high 6 allows him greater time to see you. Also, the 109s controls in AH stiffen above 400mph. The spitfire can make a quick break that you wont be able to get a shot at. Its important when diving to attack in any 109 to regulate your speed so can maintain control. If the doesnt spit see you, kill him. In all probrability he will see you and do one of the following: A split esse or a break turn. If hes good he will attempt a barrel roll.
If he barrel rolls he is doing his best to conserve energy to climb up and shoot you after you make a failed guns pass. When you are diving on a Spitfire, and he barrel rolls, break off your attack and keep up your speed. Do a climbing turn and regrab to re-asess the situation. You wont survive many mistakes against a well flown spitfire. Understanding when to get aggressive and when to extend will be key in surviving.
If he split esse's and you have set your attack to come up from low six you will have a nice plane form shot, take it. If you miss do not follow him down. Execute a gentle zoom climb and stay above and reset for another attack. He built energy through the diving part of the split esse
A break turning spitfire is a very large target, and with practice you can kill them in a 109 quite easily. You need to watch your speed and closure rate. If your speed is above 400 you controls will be stiff and you wont be able to get a guns solution. If your closure rate is to high then you may not have time to get a guns solution. When the spitfire starts his break turn, the later the better. If your controls are stiff and your closure rate is very high, break off the attack, and zoom climb. Otherwise you risk collision, or completly overshooting the target and getting a hizooka enema. Determining a safe closure rate takes practice and experience.
Most spitfires break turn to the right. You can offset your attack to the left slightly in anticipation of a right break. Be prepared if he goes left though, zoom back up and reset for your next pass. If he starts his break turn more than 500 yards out, zoom back and re-asses the situation. Closer than 500 yards, follow a pure pursuit, until he's 200-300 yards away. The 109 has a decent good instantanious turn rate and with decent speed you can get inside the breaking spit. Switch to a lead pursuit and open fire. He may end up slightly below your nose as you are firing but take your time and get a good shot. You dont wanna turn to hard to get inside. Keep your speed up and dont try and follow a prolonged break. Take your shot if you miss extend away, re-grab and reasses.
Be carefull not to start your climb to late so that you remain behind his 3/9 line. If you zoom late then the spit may nose up and spray and pray. If you catch yourself slipping infront of the spits 3/9 line then extend a bit. But you dont want to extend so far away as to give the spit time to recover.
Once you're at the top of your zoom climb, you need to decide what to do next to kill the spitfire below you. He is now either still turning, running, or is climbing in an effort to shoot you.
If he's still turning, reverse quickly and get back down on his 6 but take care not to overshoot. Roll to match his turn from above, and open fire when you are within 200-300 yards. If you miss, zoom climb again, and repeat as necessary. This is where you need to know when to get aggressive and when to take your time. The more aggressive you are the more "off balance" the spitfire is. But you increase the likelyhood of making a mistake. Learn from each attack.
If he's running, you must decide whether or not to chase him. Check for other enemies in the area first, and if it's clear skies dive down on the fleeing spitfire.
If you zoom late and the spitfire tries to follow you up vertically, you are now at the beginning of a "Rope a Dope." Go vertical, wait till you stall out, hammerhead or loop over and kill him. He will be firing, even though hes slow and near stall he can still aim. Be prepared for the spray and pray. "Rope a Dope's" are one of the most satisfying ways to kill a Spit. But this is risky because of those hizookas. Thats why its important to start your zoom behind the 3/9 line. If you zoom late it may be wiser to extend away and regrab.
All the above takes practice. But as your skill developes you will be able to get aggressive and land the shots necessary to get kills easily. While you are learning you will be tempted to be to aggressive, which will lead to a lot of quick trips to the tower. Or you will be to timid, which will lead to channel 1 harassment. Do not get discouraged, skill comes with practice
The "Merge"
The 109 is at a disadvantage when starting the fight at the same alitude, with the same ammount of energy. These fights usually start with a "merge situation," or head on pass. Do not try to kill on the merge, for many reasons. Try to avoid head on passes as much as possible. With the hizookas the Spitfire has superior firepower. By taking the head on shot you risk collision which is the worst way to end the fight. Lastly, if your opponent is good, he will use the time you are firing at him to do simple evasives, and then gain the advantage in the fight.
The right thing to do in the merge is this: make the spit think your intent is to kill him on the ho pass by heading at him. Offset yourself slightly to 1 side. At 1000 yards, nose down a bit, and enter a gentle dive. Your intention is to go under him. This decieves the Spitfire of your real intention which is to zoom climb up vertically. Start this maneuver at a distance of 100-250 yards away in the merge. Going under him will also make him lose sight of you for a few seconds, and in a dogfight losing sight of your opponent means losing the fight. Dont forget to hit WEP as you go vertical, in fact hit WEP when you see a merge situation developing.
As you are zooming up vertically, look back and see what the spit is doing. If he executes a turn you have won the fight (assuming co e states at the time of the merge). Keep zooming up till you stall, hammerhead down and shoot him dead. This may become a "Rope a Dope" or it may be a shot where he is still turning, and you must use roll in the vertical to match his turn. If the spit zoom climbs up vertically like you did, then you are in trouble (unless your energy was considerably greater than his, if so keep zooming and gain as much of an altitude advantage as possible) . This pilot is smart, and even if he's not as good as you, the spitfire's superior dogfighting ability will catch up with you quick, and send you home in a small boxes. You may want to consider running, or some defensive maneuvers.
To get the real feel of the 109 the best variant to fly is the g6. What makes the g10 good is its speed and power. You can take it from 10 to 20k and be able to out run from most bad situations.
I think that gondolas are pointless on a 109 as I fly with just 3cm. If you need that kinda fire power then really an a5 would be much better. Even with 1 x 2cm in the hub I have had kill streaks of 8 to 10.
Wetrat is not exaggerating were all in a squad (3./JG 2 before that JV 44 Wuerger-Staffel) Urchin, Wetrat, AG, Heinkel, Scot, Ely (Cmorris) etc. If you wanna go ack and check our 109 scores (in all variants) it will give you an idea of what we are saying.
I killed 7 b17s 1 time in a g10 (pre drones) with 1 load of 20mm no rearm.
Most variants of the 109 need to "flown"; you cant really on the plane to get you out of bad situations. The g10 otoh is a rocket.
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109F4 is the best to learn in.... Low engine torque lightly armed to train your gunnery... Nothing like getting a bunch of assists to motivate you to improve gunnery..
Doc's Gunnery warmup:
start your own server attack the drones from behind (counterclockwise) Open fire under 500m and repeat repeat ... until second nature..
This sims the easy 6 shots that happen to unwary prey in the MA.. This happens alot so you need this skill down... its the easiest to learn...
Now start attacking the drones from rear quarter but with say 180 deg field of fire. Using different angles each time... After about 2 minutes you should be getting some success.. pull lead turns on em, high yoyo's etc...
Now the advanced part... start attacking the drones in a clockwise motion.. this siimulates headon forward quarter attacks. With practice you will start to see some results in your gunnery skills...
Now if you having any problems with first or second part, you need to adjust your stick scale:
Exp: my 10% pull of the stick is not a 10% mine is set at like 3-5%... This allows precision movement and helps eliminate nose bounce.... and the 109 has alot
Try to turn dampening off... slows your roll rate and reaction time of stick imput to movement.. IMO = Bad.... some sticks its necessary though..
Im telling you do a tour in the 109f4 or even the g10, g6 with the base 20mm and 2 13mm you will be frustrated at first, (frustration = motivation)but as you said earlier every other plane flys like a dream... and your score and overall success in the air will improve....
Due the drills......
Doctoryo
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Batz, Pepe - I very much appreciate the lengths to which you have gone to explain the virtues of the 109G10. There seems to be an awful lot to it! What with rudder, trimming etc. I'm beginning to think that my stick and keyboard are not best suited to it.
When we discuss the benefits of a particular plane, the whole aim is to find a plane that works well for us. Of course, if we are truly committed, as are all the people who have made sensible posts to this thread, then we are prepared to apply the effort to develop the required skill, and not just take the easy option of Lala7 etc.
But there is some middle ground. I shall call that middle ground the area of natural ability. Oooh, getting deep! And by that I mean that there are many planes that require serious effort in order to fly them to their greatest effect, but each of us is drawn naturally to one or two types in particular. For me, that has been B&Z planes armed with .50cal. The F4U and P47 come as natural choices! With both, I don't have to worry about all that trimming (just auto speed and auto angle - that's all), so no fumbling on the keyboard. In AH, a plane like the P47D25 is moulded to whatever flight sim skills I have. It's not an easy plane, but I can use it and not have to try too hard. Of course, I shall still fly the others - 190, 109 etc., but I'm just saying that a plane like the P47 is naturally suited to me, or I to it. Yesterday I had a great time taking off from A43 (12K). The only thing I don't like about the Jug is the slow climb rate, but once it gets up there, it really shines. That's one of the reasons I like the Pizza - the high altitude gives the Jug a chance (and pisses on the LA7 parade - lol).
Originally posted by cpxxx
I look forward to the day I get ten kills on a single flight. Hopefully I will remember to turn on the video.
Rgr that, cpxxx. Like this?
(http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/ahss30.jpg)
Did it yesterday. 3-4 vulches is all. Mostly high alt B&Z with the cons thinking "it's just a Jug!".
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HBlair:
The 109g10 is a very capable MA furballer as well as a 1v1 fighter. If flown right. The key is sticking to it, learning to deal with the compression issues and using her strengths. (she is a lady ya know)
Amen!!
And the Dora goes down in a 1v1 against the G10
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GRUNHERZ will be pleased to know that I have not given up on the 109Gx. I had an excellent skirmish with wrag yesterday, he in a P38L and me in the 109G10. I filmed it. I managed to win in the end but he made me work for it. See what you think. First there is the short version (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/film70_0252.zip), which shows me moving in closer, and a bit of rolling around prior to getting a guns solution. If you would like to help me by suggesting how I might have done it better, please review the long version (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/film70.zip). It's an extra couple of minutes at the front, but shows me trying to get closer, shortening the distance between us by whatever means possible.
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whats causing compressibility on 109s at 400mph or greater? is it the cockpit shape that is causing 109s to get little or no response to the elevators when you dive at speeds greater than 400mph?
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The stick doesnt generate enough force to move the elevators or ailerons at high speed. It isnt actually compressing.
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what urchin said
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Watched the long film. My question would be that at the speeds obtained in the chase why the 38 didn't "use" the 38 and put you out in front ??
Then again I rarely fly either plane. Ackack might have a comment.
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Originally posted by Urchin
The stick doesnt generate enough force to move the elevators or ailerons at high speed. It isnt actually compressing.
Why would trimming it make possible fly then? If the Stick doesn't generate enough force to move the elevators. Then with the use of the trim tabs you shouldn't be able to fly the plane since trim is used only to take some force off the stick.
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Because in the 109 trimming actually moved the tailplane, making it possible to move the elevators even when you couldnt move the stick enough to have any effect on them.
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what urchin said...
And beetle, I watched that film yesterday.. Why were you spraying at him from d650? You'll never do any damage from that far away :p
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Ok, just watched your film again. I'd say the only bad thing about you in that film is your gunnery... wrag didn't look very good at all, and was a running wuss. Just work on that gunnery and you'll do fine. If you still want a film I can probably find a recent one... they're all 109G2's though.
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Originally posted by nopoop
Watched the long film. My question would be that at the speeds obtained in the chase why the 38 didn't "use" the 38 and put you out in front ??
[/B]
Because, frankly, the 38 pilot in that film wasn't very good. He'd work into a nose-to-nose position with Beetle, but then he'd take that opportunity to run away instead of becoming aggressive. The result was that time and again, despite having neutralized Beetle's positional advantage, he would then give it up and allow Beetle onto his six to start the whole process over again.
In the final fight itself, you'll also notice that the 38 kept doing nose high turns rather than nose low to keep the fight's speed up.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by wetrat
what urchin said...
And beetle, I watched that film yesterday.. Why were you spraying at him from d650? You'll never do any damage from that far away :p
Doh! So I did. But... please have a quick look at this thread which I posted on AGW (http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11972), in which I asked some old WB buddies about aspects of gunnery, and how they are modelled in AH. More than a few people would seem to believe that the AH gunnery model is porked. (Note Stiglr's comments - he makes no bones about it!) Indeed, I was posing questions about the feasibility of getting hits at 700 yards, as I had done myself (but .50s from a P47). As for getting cannon rounds on target from 600 yards, please review the AH film posted as an attachment to that thread, or download it from my webspace (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/film3_0015.zip). That film shows me flying a F4U-1C (with cannon) and dishing out a lethal blow to an LA7 at a range of just over 600 yards! :confused::eek::confused: My point is that there seems to be rather more pot luck in AH than with other sims. Let me pre-empt the obvious reaction by asking one further question: What is the difference between 109 cannon and the F4U-1C cannon, and why should the F4U cannon be consistently lethal at 600 yards and the 109 cannon be useless at that range?
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the chog has hispanos, aka Hizookas. They have a much high velocity then the mg151 and thus have a flatter trajectory. This gives you a greater chance at hit probrability. Lw cannon are lower velocity but make up for it with mine rounds (chemical energy). All sides had HE rounds but Mgeschoss are different and contained a greater explosive content.
Basically they fly faster and "hit" harder.
I dont have time to look up the numbers but some one will or make a post on the Aircraft vehicle forum or look up some of tony williams posts.
There is a great variety with in gun types and bullet types. It would be less real to expect the same thing from all the different types.
In rl these bullets (50s and hizookas) certainly could hit at range and cause damage. But there are numerous factors that maybe arent accounted for. We have range counters, ammo counters clear unobstructed vision etc...... All intangibles that are quite hard to model.
WBs creates an artificial condition to get what they feel are more playable results. They have 80% leathality, buff tough etc. They just recently moved to 1 to 1 bullet modeling.
Yet even on AGW there are whines about range. Interestingly Tony Williams mention that range wasnt a consideration in rl in each side descision of what gun type to mount on their planes.
Most pilots were trained to fire at convergence at a given range. What 50s 303s and Hizookas allow with their flat trajectories and higher rate of fire is a greater probrability to get hits at that given range.
Also Dogfighting like we have in ah or any flight sim isnt the same. Most wouldnt fire their shots until they were in close so that the were sure they could hit. Firing out side range would tip off the attacked and if you miss he may run or you end up in a prolonged fight.
Gunnery is very difficult and it will never satisfy everyone.
But from your film I see why you need gondolas ;)
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Batz! Thanks for that explanation. WB used to have 800 yard spray and pray shots, and then they changed things in such a way that even planes armed with .50 cal had to get to within 300 yards. They also fiddled with the lethality of the various different types of round, fiddled with buff gun lethality, and buff ord. All rather off-pissing, and played no small part in my decision to leave.
Most wouldnt fire their shots until they were in close so that the were sure they could hit.
I agree, and from Gabreski's account, one is led to believe that lethality was inversely proportional to the square of the distance between his own plane and the target. In Aces High, the problem with getting in close (200 yards or less) is that the bogie pilot hears your engine! LOL - what BS :rolleyes: Gunnery is very difficult and it will never satisfy everyone. But from your film I see why you need gondolas
ROFL!! -You cheeky monkey! ;) I'll have you know that I did not have gondolas attached in that 109 film! Be sure to check that F4U v LA7 film - definitely no S&P there!
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Originally posted by Batz
But there are numerous factors that maybe arent accounted for. We have range counters, ammo counters clear unobstructed vision etc...... All intangibles that are quite hard to model.
LOL! Two of the three points meantioned are very very easy to model: Turn them off. :D