Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tyro48 on March 21, 2003, 04:50:47 AM
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As I understand it the M3 is a open compartment type of vechile.
Said vech has one 50 cal mg. While playing this evening I was straffing a M3 with a P51-B, said plane has four 50 cal mg's. So as the event turned out the single 50 kills my Merlin eng and gives me a pilot wound, an aircraft like a P51 it would seem can't kill any of the troops, can't kill the driver, can't flatten the tires and has trouble killing a single gunner, and has trouble killing the eng of the M3, now I don't propose to be the best gunner in AH, but I do know that Dale & Doug try to keep the game lets say real as far as virtual games can get real, now wouldn't it seem like a 4:1 gun advantage and speed would usually over come the open compartment troop carrier? At least it would seem plauseable that a troop or two would get the coup degras, or the gunner/driver would take a wound or that a vech eng would be more likely to fail than the aircraft eng in a 4:1 gun battle, Dale/Doug lets revisit this one, the player enjoys the consequence of their choice good or bad, gotta make it easy for the M3 to make a capture? No ya dont ya make em responsible for the choice and consequence. On the other hand a vech in the VH can't gun an attacking aircraft but the aircraft can kill the vech in the netted VH? Hmmm a 20mm ostie can't gun its way out of the netting, this needs some attention guys, on both sides of this coin. Please Dale/Doug give this your attention in the next update. Thanks gentlemen.
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I drove an M8 up to a disabled tiger other day maybe 10 meters out or so and to keep him at my mercy I decided to shoot out his pintle gun with mine, No dice bullets went straight through, they hit the cupola fine but not the gun.
Same goes for strafing runs, I won a gun duel with my tigers little popgun against 2 A20s. A few pings is all thats neccesary to bring an A/C down. With my Ju-88 I gotta light em up with the front gun for a few seconds. With the 2 or even 4 tailguns I have only gotten a kill once in ju-88, I lit up a yak-t once for 10 secs no damage. Hurri 1s and c202s are super assist machines you have to light the weeny up for long seconds to get any sort of damage. Ive sawn the wing off a niki in a panzer with 4-5 pings.
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Don't forget that the P-51 underside is its Achilles Heal and you can easily lose your radiator and/or engine strafing ground vehicles.
When I'm in a ground vehicle and I'm being strafed by planes, I always aim for the engine which usually resorts in either wounding the pilot and/or damaging his engine.
Ack-Ack
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If an M3 shot you up so badly, its probably coz a) you dove in shallow b) you didn't lead enough c) you flew straight in making an easy target.
Don't blame HTCs code for your failure to respect the 50 cal.
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The m3 has been toughened up I believe to enhance its playability... Tho I've never survived a well aimed pass by any aircraft in one.... even .50 armed
Put yerself in the m3...
SKurj
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Your gun convergence has ALOT to do with it also.
Remember that the width and length of an M3 is very small in comparison to the width and length of airplanes.
So if you have your convergence set at say 450 on your P51, firing your guns before this distance with most likely cause a miss and the same effect when firing too late. With such a small target, you have to be right on the M3 at 450 to really send the punch home.
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Once brought down a Tempest with an M3, got 6.92 perks for that :)
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Lets look at this another way, would you be pleased to be a troop in an open compartmented M3 an expect to live through even 1 pass from 4 50's? By-the-by the m3 didnt score an eng kill/pilot wound until the 3rd pass, do you really think youd have even odds of surviving 3 passes with 1/2" lead rattling around in that small an area, or no driver wounds, tire strikes, or vech eng kills, and is the vech eng any less vulnerable than that of the p51's?? Not likely that 10 troops can get to an objective after 3 passes is the whole point here, give it some thought aside from defending HT's game plan, lets look at it from a real world stand point, if we cant then the game might as well be called quake! And how about a vech in a netted vech hanger and you cant even fire out of the netting but and aircraft can fire into it and score kills, do you also believe this to be an accurate representation, dont get me wrong here I dont expect absolutes in a virtual environment, but I would at least expect a close facsimile thereof and fully believe we aren't getting it in the M3 vs Aircraft or aircraft vs open field M3. just step back abit leave your personal pilot attacks out and ask yourself if this is close to real world conditions, care to sit in an APC in Iraq and test your ideas in a real world settin?? I'm willing to bet you won't cause you really know you won't make it, Dale and Doug wouldn't do it and neither would I so should we expect anything less in the game, it is just not a likely event that 10 guys make it. Think of it 10 guys in an APC survive but the aircraft pilot gets wounded it just dont cut the mustard IMHO. Dale/Doug fell free to throw in here and help us understand how this is so consistantly possible, it would seem its is weighted way to much in favor of the M3 is field captures. More importantly if Dale/Doug ( who ever models the ammo) do model the ammo load of the P51 the the M3 is taking API ammo rounds which for dang sure is gonna rip the M3 a new year end look and I think they have said in the past that the A{PI is modeled. OK now lets ignore all the points and let the attacks resume.
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Ok back to my orginal point... If you need more than 1 pass to kill an m3 even with 4 50's... your aim needs work...
Othewise your first passes just scratched the paint...
Even the stuka's 7mm guns can disable the turret on an osty...
YOU CANNOT APPLY YOUR OWN SELECTIVE REALISM!!
You get some concessions when you spawn in your pee51, why doesn't the m3 driving player?
This is a game..
In reality hell no, I wouldn't want to be in the m3.
SKurj
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I defer to the expert , of course we all know probability cannot in any way come into the discussion he has to be right, its got to be aim, we all know the p51 didnt make any kills of ground vech in WWII and those that did of course were all expert shots, and of course nothing was brought up on behalf of the vech's problems in the vh, what we have here is a classic AH case of selective reading and a personal flare for knowing it all, there is of course according to the above no way that the 51's API armor pierceing rounds would penetrate a substantial vech like the M3 but of course its API will easily pass through the P51 armor and wound the pilot, and it stands to reason that there couldnt possibly be anything odd about this , and there is no way any 1 of the troops wouldnt be killed and/or wounded. Nor would the P51's API being as weak as it is take out the eng on said ground vech we cant have that, we must of course extend all consideration to the individual that selected the ground course and of course down play any gaming that might give the game any kind of level playing field that would in any way simulate real world conditions, is this a simulator, why of course not, low angle/high angle the API is gonna kick the M3's arse no if's ands or butts like the above.
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So wtf do you expect Tyro48?
HTC to change the m3 so u can kill it even when u miss?
m3's are deadmeat in AH vs any plane(with guns or ord). Sure the plane might take some damage but 19 times out of 20 that plane will rtb.
There were lucky crews in ww2, maybe you just came across a lucky m3
SKurj
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Originally posted by SKurj
The m3 has been toughened up I believe to enhance its playability... Tho I've never survived a well aimed pass by any aircraft in one.... even .50 armed
Put yerself in the m3...
SKurj
I think all armor was adjusted when they made the improvements to the ground vehicles a few updates/patches ago.
Survival in the M3 depends usually on the attacking plane. If the attacker comes in at a steep enough angle where you can't track him with your .50 cal., you're dead. If the attacker is coming in at a shallow angle, you have a very good chance of surviving. Last night outside of A57 on Trinity, I got 5 kills in an M3 and only died when I didn't see the ridge and flew off it at 60mph and fell a few hundred feet to the bottom.
ack-ack
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Since your unable to discuss the thread SK dont bother with it any more, keep your temper under control, everything here you have still managed to miss so move on bud.
Lol AKAK a 60 mph dump that had to be a shocker!
However would still like to hear from the inventors of the game Dale and Doug, I still maitain the individual is resposible for the consequence of the choice and hopefully Dale and Doug would like to keep it close to real.
I agree AKAK it would seem that a shallow angle on the vech would mean less metal to penetrate.
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Don't hold your breath +)
the GV side of the game is further from reality than the flight side, and as far as i recall... HTC considers it secondary to the flight side of the game.
GV's gettin kills at 4k+
WW2 tank commanders couldn't dream of the magnification we have in AH
Absolutely no cover for GV's whatsoever
GV crews surviving near misses by 1k eggs
GV's travelling 70mph+ downhill
Unlimited fuel
GV's are a nice addition and I usem alot, I enjoy them as they are, though I would love to see some changes to make them more realistic, such as gunsights, and cover.
SKurj
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Well thanks that was informative, I dont know squat about the code they use or how long it takes to address players concerns/wants and if reasonable code it, the thing that is hard to understand is why any developer would want to even mention starting a newer addition when the one they originally created isn't under control and all issues resolved, especially since their livelyhood comes from the players, AW did this same thing, ignored what interested the player. GV play is fun, the "tank city" in trinity is a nice addition. Attacking GV's is fun but my whole point is that the cards should be dealt out as they are in the real world random and unexpected, the one thing that can be really modeled well is over looked here, it is more than understandable that atmosphereics can't be modeled to well yet along with gravity affects in the cockpit, but control of like you mention distance of ammo fire, ammo penetration etc. can be, Tony Williams has a great in sight on this sort of thing, makes me wonder if Dale / Doug avail themselves to this kind of expertise.
I don't want my realism imposed on anyone or theirs on me, but I like it real world as much as possible, it makes game play more immersive. When I first moved to AH from AW I had to adapt quick to the "FR" since I was a "RR" weenie, didnt whine about it if you want to play the game you do it, but it seems to me the "MA" has been reduced some, the why of it escapes me, possibly as you mentioned its due to this being focused on BFM/ACM play and the GV stuff secondary. An easy fix here is hire an individual to focus on ground play and Dale/Doug do what ever it is they do, if we can see a newer AH2 in the future that shouldnt be hard to address. Any business under 80 people can be well and easily managed and HTC falls well into these boundarys.
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So long as we care to toss this discussion into the realm of realism...do you suppose that 10-guys can really take control of a base with a barracks full of troops less than 1-mile off at the airfield? Maybe if they had an embedded reporter and the defenders happened to be the Iraqi 51st Division...
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It would be neat if the M3/ C47/ LVT 2 damage model included its payload.
I also like the idea of upping base capture to require at least two of any of the above to implement a capture ( ie more than 10 troops) its a very simple arena setting to do this.
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Requiring more troops to capture would be a plus.
How about allowing troops to destroy buildings, say 2 for 1. They'd hit any remaining structures prior to entering the map room. Of course you loose the 2-troops that destroyed the building...
Might be good if the barracks at the base was a requirement for capture...
It would be good to slow down the attack, in addition to making the original capture more difficult...
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Originally posted by empty
Might be good if the barracks at the base was a requirement for capture...
I like this too........... it would certainly slow the land grab whilst still making it a game focus...............
Infact it seems to me that a requirement for the destruction of a towns/fields defending troops (barracks) is more sort of RL than the obliteration of every building in the town its self. Hence making towns bigger by adding garrisons of barracks and making the field and town barracks an additional requirement.....
oops thread hijack
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In the real world yes your P51B would have made swiss cheese out of the m3.
But also in the real world Base captures required alot of inf ground work to pull off. AH simulates a very small portion of the total arms concept that WWII was all about. Also remember that theres no cover for GVs to hide in. They stick out in the barren wastelands now which is not realistic.
The M3 would not have been alone and it has the ability to dismount its troops and they can seek cover during an air attack.
If I get killed by a lone M3 I simulate to myself that one of the other anti-air vehicles that would have been part of that 30+ convoy in RL shot me down.
Sometimes a fine line between RL and game play has to be imposed. To make game play fun for all in the air and on the ground.
In real life, then and even today an air only campaign can not take and hold ground. Ground troops have to hold what is taken.
But in our little virtual world the air campaign can move the map and hold ground on its own.
I think the ground vehicles are modeled well for the role they play in game.
I to would like to see base captures increase in difficulty some what. But then I also think that bases should have more ack, both mannable, AI controled, and different types and multiple GV spawns at bases.
At least in this sim tanks dont sit on top of mountains near bomber bases and score one hit shots on B17s ripping thier wings off at D10 like another sim.
(http://home.earthlink.net/~blastedblaster/_uimages/SixxGunnAH.jpg)
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Originally posted by SKurj
Ok back to my orginal point... If you need more than 1 pass to kill an m3 even with 4 50's... your aim needs work...
Othewise your first passes just scratched the paint...
Even the stuka's 7mm guns can disable the turret on an osty...
YOU CANNOT APPLY YOUR OWN SELECTIVE REALISM!!
You get some concessions when you spawn in your pee51, why doesn't the m3 driving player?
This is a game..
In reality hell no, I wouldn't want to be in the m3.
SKurj
Only if the Osty doesn't see you first then your dead.
I also agree that in an open vehicle the bullets of just 2 or 3 mg hitting you would do some damage. Either to driver gunner or troops.