Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: jarbo on March 21, 2003, 07:50:35 AM
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This setup is based loosly on a 1943 setup, but some modifications have been made for balance. On this setup
will be evaluating enabling full friendly radar in CT, please give feedback in CT forum.
DO NOT CAPTURE ROOK BASES OR IT WILL GOOF UP ARENA (bottom left corner)
Plane Set
Allies (Bish):
CV41: F4F, SBD, TBM, LVT (both)
CV42: Sea Hurricane (Hurri-IIC), TBM, LVT (both)
Airfields: Spit-V, Hurri-IIC, Hurri-IID, P-40E, Boston-III, B-17 (1 or 2 rear fields), C-47, M-3, M-8, M-16,
Ostwind, Panz-IV
Ports/V-fields: M-3, M-8, M-16, Ostwind, Panz-IV, PT (where spawn points allow)
Axis (Knight):
Bf109E-4, Bf109F-4, Bf110C-4, C202, Ju87, Ju88, C-47, M-3, M-8, M-16, Ostwind, Panz-IV, Tiger-I (perk:15 pts)
Ports/V-fields: M-3, M-8, M-16, Ostwind, Panz-IV, Tiger-I (perked 15 pts), PT (where spawn points allow)
Design Notes: Uses standard Axis and Allies base assignments. Left out the Bf109G-2/G-6 for balance? sake.
Added the Hurri-IID to provide extra anti-tank punch to counter the German Tiger.
ALL Other CVs will be destroyer groups only w/ LVTs enabled.
Other settings:
Ack .7
Fuel 1.5
Radar Ct Norms
Downtimes
Field Obj: 45min
Hangars: 30min
Ack: 20 min
Strat: Disabled
Jarbo
CT Staff
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Originally posted by jarbo
This setup is based loosly on a 1943 setup, but some modifications have been made for balance.
Looking forward to it, Jarbo. P40 v. 202 is my favorite match.
- oldman
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thanks Jarbo
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Get rid of one of the CV, this map is ruined by constant CV vulching of coastal bases.
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grun... you might feel differently if the LW woulda had the foresight to actually build a carrier plane.... or even one that turned for that matter.
lazs
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Why CT has very often this non-historical so called "balanced setup"? Why not even Bf 109 G2 is there? It is historical fact that in 1943 almost all the Axis had them and of course Germans in Tunis, too!:confused:
I have now flown mainly on CT about half year and I have noticed almost every week that Allied had the newest current year aircrafts and axis 1-2 year older models. Or if the Axis models are current year planes allied have future planes from next year!:D
This "balanced setup" is a little bit true in FinRus maps, too: The fact is that Russe had La5FN's (FN = better engine) in Finnish front only in one unit: 159 th IAP. The other units had "normally" La5 planes.
Also in Finnish front was only 27 individual Yak9T aircraft (with 1 x 37 mm CAN and 1 x 12,7 mm MG) and the rest were "normally" Yak9 (1 x 20 mm CAN and 1 x 12,7 mm MG).
I know that FM2 (our "Brewster") is about 40 MPH faster than original Brewster, but FM2 is not so good turning fighter than original Brewster was. Armament is the same in the both planes (4 x 50 cal MG).
And we change the FM2 to BREWSTER as soon as HTC make it to us!:D But as you can see, we have tried to make FinRus arenas as historical as it we can. My opinion is that it is balanced both historical and playing the game meaning, isn't it?
I want to fly Axis side with Bf 109 G2 always when we have autumn 1942 or later timeline CT maps and when the G2 was in the current historical area. And of course Allied must have their historical correct planes, too!;)
And my opinion is that CT should should be only historical arena, not fantasy arena with fantasy setups. If somebody like fantasies, he can go and play with toys to MA!:D
I WANT REAL RAW WAR! :mad:
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I agree with Kanttori - ALWAYS KEEP IT HISTORICAL in the CT. That is what the attraction of the arena is for most people.
I have no problem with the Allied Carriers. They were there in theater and should be represented. I like the idea of one USN and one RN carrier.
As Kanttori said the Germans did have the ME-109G model in theater during 1943 so we should get it IMO. If you want to keep it a close race just give us the G-2, we can do without the G-6.
Other than that - killer set up Jarbo and CT Crew. !
If you do have any "WHAT IF" scenarios keep them based in history. Example the Korean War set-up was OK but we should have had F-86 Sabers (ME-262's) to counter the MIG-15's (ME-262's).
As for Lazs2's comment about the German Navy not having a carrier - enable one for the Axis and I will start TRAGERGRUPPE 186 tomorrow flying ME-109T's & JU-87 Stuka's off her. HORRIDO! :D Would love to see a CV war between German & Axis Carriers but that would probably be better suited to an event in the SEA.
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Originally posted by Andijg
I agree with Kanttori - ALWAYS KEEP IT HISTORICAL in the CT. That is what the attraction of the arena is for most people.
I disagree. At any given point in history, someone usually had an uber ride. If you duplicate this in the CT, the result is lop-sided numbers. I agree that the historical aspect of CT is often what brings us here; but we don't stay if we find that one side is grossly outnumbered (well. I do, but people with better sense won't). So I'm with Jarbo's notion of evening out the history a bit.
That said, right now I am predicting an allied force composed principally of Spit Vs. I don't see that the G2 would be out of place in those circumstances.
- oldman
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Give the Allieds Spit IX's, and you'd still see me in a Spit V. She's my baby, and I don't forsake her when she's in the CT. :D
btw, where's the 190? II/JG2 flew 190A-4's and 190A-5's in Tunisia through march '43. I see nothing wrong with giving the Axis the 190A-5. Limit it if you have to, but it was there.
I also see nothing wrong with the 109G-2 being used in Tunisia, 1943, if in fact, the LW was using that variant at the time.
Of course, this is coming from a Spit V guy who'll fly it in the MA against everything under the sun. ;)
Anyways, I'll be in the CT tonight after I die in Squad Ops. I'll be in a Spit V, even if I have to shoot at Mongrels! :D
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what can you do in a g2 you can't do in a f4?
given the choice Ill take the 109f everytime..pls tell me what I'm missing...
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The G-2 is faster and has a slightly better climbrate than the F-4. The F-4 turns better, IIRC.
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Originally posted by Nifty
The G-2 is faster and has a slightly better climbrate than the F-4. The F-4 turns better, IIRC.
That's been my experience. Someone said that the G2 is even faster than the G6.
- oldman
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Jarbo has endevored to creat what he feals is a balanced set up ( I agree with him that it is), I agree that the CT must always strive for as balanced a set up as is possable while maintaining as much imershion historicaly as possable. This is going to cause problems for some people on ocashion as it can put their favorate planes out of the loop, so to speek, A good plane set does not nescessarly include all the planes that were available nore are the planes that are available going to be used in the numbers they were proportainiatly historicaly. For Example were going to see 90% spits in the air which is not historical but spits are popular for a number of reasions I dont nead to get into hear. I mean we could get real anal and limit certain planes to certain fields but were not doing that because we want even the spit dweabs to have some fun. I gues what I am saying is that a balance must be struck at some point, a line drawn and in this case I think the set up will play well, with no side having too big of an advantage over the other.
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IMO the Spit V will be abused like mad. Just my $0.02
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How would it be abused? Because people fly it? Not being a jerk, Im just curious what you are calling abuse.
I think the Axis should get the G-2. No reason they shouldnt have it if it was there. Make for a fun time for both sides.
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Spits are always flow in large numbers in set up's whear their available, Their easy rides. Hince the term Spit dweab. I think this may be what he is refering to.
As far as the G-2 is concerned it is simply a mater of drawing a line, as stated above the plane set will play well as it is, just because somthing was their doesent mean it is going to be good ( or bad) for a set up. It is a call that we as the staff must make in doing these set up's, it is not an easy thing to do, we dont want to deny somebody their favorate toy but still have to this on ocashion.
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Landing anywhere at A10, be it the runway or even in a hangar and you get the dreaded "You have ditched" message.
Just FYI............:)
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Originally posted by lazs2
grun... you might feel differently if the LW woulda had the foresight to actually build a carrier plane.... or even one that turned for that matter.
lazs
Whats your point? I fly allies nearly as much as axis in ct - I just think CV parking is gay....
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I think from what I've read here is that everyone has VALID points, but whether or not they'd actually help the CT, that is questionable.
Giving both countries CV's is fair - the Germans just to balance out the sides even though you can't take off any aircraft.
Lets see how this setup works first before asking to make any changes. If it's unbalanced, the stats will show and we in the CT like a fair setup and will make changes.
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Per the discussions above, I am considering making 2 changes:
1) If the Allies CVs unbalance the arena , I will add a German 109F CV. (Undecided about adding stukas, but Germans need Cv jabo in all likelyhood, so please make your comments below on adding stuka)
2) I am also considering adding the G2, and possibly the 190A5 later on in the setup (Tuesdayish). This will depend also on assessments of balance vs what Germans had Historically.
Thank you for the above feedback on the setup thusfar.
Jarbo
CT Staff
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Whats your point? I fly allies nearly as much as axis in ct - I just think CV parking is gay....
LOL GIVE EM HELL GRUNHERZ!:D
I don't mind the Cv's but he' s right CV parking is gay
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Them there stookas make real good divebomberz. Their sireenz make a better wail, too. ;)
Originally whined by GRUNHERZ
Whats your point? I fly allies nearly as much as axis in ct - I just think CV parking is gay....
Backup whine by Löwe
LOL GIVE EM HELL GRUNHERZ! :D
I don't mind the Cv's but he' s right CV parking is gay
p.s. 1: Create mission to a: take port b: sink fleet. 2: Use stookas - they iz awesum! Them JuJu apee-apes ain't so bad either! :D
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Originally posted by Slash27
How would it be abused? Because people fly it? Not being a jerk, Im just curious what you are calling abuse...
Well, like in the Greece map, I was flying axis almost the entire time and being outnumbered by allies 25 to 15 wasn't uncommon. And guess what? About every plane I fought was a spit.
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Looking forward to it, Jarbo. P40 v. 202 is my favorite match.
Good luck being able to find that match up. Everytime I have seen more or less this same setup it seems to me that 80% of Allied planes flown are Spits, 19% are Hurri IIC and 1% are other planes apparently selected by mistake in the hanger. Most players will gravitate towards Allied and the numbers will never drop below 1.5 Allied to 1 Axis and will brush 2:1 from time to time.
I respect the CT staff for thier efforts at plane balance but unless a method can be found to force historic availabilty as well, the side with the Hispano's will alway dominate the numbers and thus force and imbalance regardless of planeset.
The 202 is badly mismatched here, I can't fly 109's at all, the 110 has those hideous MG-FF, and I refuse to simply add to the number of Spits. See you guys next setup.
S!
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Originally posted by Arlo
p.s. 1: Create mission to a: take port b: sink fleet. 2: Use stookas - they iz awesum! Them JuJu apee-apes ain't so bad either! :D
Instead of us having to do all that **** why not just refrain from CV parking, and using them for ack batteries against Axis bases??:p
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Dunno ... sounded like a fun alternative, I thought.
Besides ... ain't me, man.
I still say they're sinkable and their ports are capturable. But then again ... I could be wrong. I've seen fleets disabled before cause they were buggy.
Personally, I hate it when a "hotshot fleet commodore" takes a fleet within range of an enemy base, it's radar, it's shore batts, it's PTs or even another fleet (not that the last applies here) and decides it's time to duke it out no matter what the consequence is. Especially if I have an urge to do carrier ops without having to take off and land in a Pearl Harbor type setting.
Then again, I hate it that fleets spawn endless PTs and amphibs as if it were a rootin' tootin' gator group with dawn of the dead marines as well as every rerun of McHale's Navy brought back to life.
But hey ... that's how it's designed. Maybe AHII won't have that.
I still don't see the "carrier parking" (complaint) as one worth the time, I suppose.
*ShruG*
Originally posted by Löwe
Instead of us having to do all that **** why not just refrain from CV parking, and using them for ack batteries against Axis bases??:p
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I too am all for Carrier Ops, hell I'm an old VF-27 member I love Carrier Ops.
It's the parking thats a problem, I think the fleets should be there , it adds to the game. It's the Hotshot CV commanders like you say Arlo.:)
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Whoever created the clipboard map made an 'oopsy'. The sector lines are way offset. This causes the radar counters to show in the wrong place.
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I was able to figure that one out and adjust but we noticed A55 was uncapturable last night (which actually kinda turned out to be a good thing - some good fights tween close bases). Apparently it has neither a town or a maproom.
Originally posted by NoBaddy
Whoever created the clipboard map made an 'oopsy'. The sector lines are way offset. This causes the radar counters to show in the wrong place.
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Yup, looks like the whole week will be spent between a2 and a55. Good deal in a way though, you always know where the action will be instead of chasing cons around the map. That certainly helps in those short winded 109's, lol. All in all, thumbs up for this one!
Not to mention I get much better framerates in this terrain...
Yeah, I know... upgrade my machine... :p
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You must have been missing those "frame sucking cloud clusters" I was encountering. ;)
Originally posted by Okugi
Yup, looks like the whole week will be spent between a2 and a55. Good deal in a way though, you always know where the action will be instead of chasing cons around the map. That certainly helps in those short winded 109's, lol. All in all, thumbs up for this one!
Not to mention I get much better framerates in this terrain...
Yeah, I know... upgrade my machine... :p
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Well, like in the Greece map, I was flying axis almost the entire time and being outnumbered by allies 25 to 15 wasn't uncommon. And guess what? About every plane I fought was a spit.
I can see your frustration. If the G2 and A5 are added shouldnt be a problem. Numbers havent been too bad lately thanks in part to JG-3 . I guess we'll see how it goes.
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Even if they were added you would still see the same number of spits, at least percentage wise.
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I was perfectly willing to use the pee-40. Started out in it aamof. But when I had a 109 on my tail a 109 diving down and another 109 hoing me .... simultaneously, I opted for something that twisted and turned a bit better. Even then it was a chore surviving (or attempting to survive ... dragging out my demise) 3 or 4 on one when I was solo last night. :D
Luckily the odds evened out a lil later and the fights became much more interesting. For both sides if the comments in the buffer reflected the feelings of their typists.
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Even if they were added you would still see the same number of spits, at least percentage wise.
Wasnt implying otherwise. Just thought by adding the G2 and A5 it would even things out. If the Spit is going to be such a problem just take it out.
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Bad trend. I've seen this show before. :D
Originally posted by Slash27
If the Spit is going to be such a problem just take it out.
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If your flying a 109 and find the spit a problem, your flying it wrong.
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Hello? What about us USAAF pilots? All we have is the P-40E which by the way, was not as good as the P-40F. The P-40F was 54 mph faster than the E and performed better at 20k. The P-40F was used in Tunisia at least between June 43 - Sept. 43. Why do I bring this up? Well, the 109-G2 is almost 100mph faster than the P-40E at 20k. It would only be about 35mph faster than the P-40F. HOWEVER, the P-40F would be FASTER than the C-202 at 20K. The C-202 is about 350mph at 20K.
The 109F-2 and G-2 are pretty damn close at about 15 mph difference at 20K, about 390 and 395mph.
Soooooooooooo
Performance ratings in order:
Above 20k
#1 Bf-109G-2
#2 Bf-109F-4
#3 P-40F
#4 C-202
#5 Bf-110C-4
#6 Bf-109E-4
#7 P-40E
Below 15K
#1 Bf-109G-2
#2 Bf-109F-4
#3 C-202
#4 P-40E
#5 Bf-109E-4
#6 Bf-110C-4
Climb Rate on P-40F was 1,200 feet faster than P-40E with the Packard engine.
The USAAF pilots are getting screwed.....again!
The F4F?????? Thats a big f@#$ Laugh :rolleyes:
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From what i've seen so far, the 109f does just fine against the spits as long as you have a wingie, and fly it right. I can't even tell you how many times I've used a climbing turn to drag the poor spitdweeb to a squaddie or other friendly. If I can't get them on the first couple passes, it's drag 'n bag time! ;)
Of course, this isn't gonna work so well if outnumbered... that's a bridge to cross when/if we come to it. But so far, numbers have been fair... if they were out of whack, a2 would have fallen long ago.
Enjoying this setup so far, but I have to admit, the 190a5 is my squad ride... I sure won't argue if it gets added :)
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If your flying a 109 and find the spit a problem, your flying it wrong
Kinda what I was thinking.
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CurtissP-6EHawk,
The USAAF also flew Spit Vs and Spit IXs in the Med. Theatre. I don't know the dates that we were using them, but I do know it was not a breif period.
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I dident mean to imply that the spit was realy a problem, just that it is used 90% of the time.
We all knmow most combat takes place bellow 10K.
This plane set is obviously not a US baseed one one and as Karnak said they flew spis alot to Hawk in tis time and place.
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Rgr that Brady.
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yes I know UASSF flew Spits but the 325th wont be flying Spits, Cya in the MA :mad:
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Originally posted by Andijg
I agree with Kanttori - ALWAYS KEEP IT HISTORICAL in the CT. That is what the attraction of the arena is for most people.
I'd agree for the most part. I'm a CT newbie and y'all may have kicked this around before, but I'd like to see a "America 1942" Senario. What if the Japense had brought an invasion force to the west coast after Pearl Harbor? Or if Britain had collapsed and the Axis powers had established a foothold in Canada or northeastern Mexico and started an offensive?
This might be a fantasy senario, but wold not need a fantasy planeset.
Just a thought. :)
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....M8's... GV WAR arives! :rolleyes:
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If your flying a 109 and find the spit a problem, your flying it wrong.
No offense but you guys need to try to remember back a ways in your online flying careers. The Spit is a very forgiving plane. You can screw up pretty bad and still have options against the 109. The opposite is not true. The 109 is horribly unforgiving plane for the average AH player. Go a bit too fast and you loose manuverablity*, to slow and Spit V will catch you, take a Hispano hit and the weak airframe will loose something, visbility is such that it is easy to loose a target in the cockpit frame, the single cannon makes snapshots very hard.
The result is that the average player will gravitate to the side that is flying the more forgiving plane. This multiplies the numbers on the Allied side to the point where the 109's climb and speed advantage is nullified. There will always be another Spit closing on your dot. It isn't the "the spit" that is the problem, it is the two or three Spits that are hard to deal with.
This is something I've noticed quite a bit in various setups when a plane is added to "balance." Often times the plane being balanced is deadly in the hands of a Shane, or an hblair, or a brady... but in the hands of an HFMudd it simply is not so. So when another plane is added in for balance the result is not balance, but instead the added plane becomes a magnet for average pilot. The arena odds shift to 2:1 in favor of the side with the balancing plane while the side with the plane being "balanced' must not only deal with what may be a difficult plane to fly effectivly but also with being out numbered as well.
The end result is that average or lower skill players such as myself simply don't play or don't help where it is really needed. In my case, since I try to fly the side with the lower numbers so as not to be part of what I consider to be "the problem," I simply log off and go back to working my on skills of whatever plane has struck my fancy in the MA this tour.
* Yes, yes, yes, uh-huh... I know the 109 needs to be flown with trim. I do so (very poorly) myself. But the game, and the CT by extention, needs to suit the average player otherwise numbers will not grow. Switching out of combat trim, rudder turns and other required skills fo the 109 are not 'average' player maneuvers.
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I anit as good as thouse other guys mudd, but you are very right.
This is always a big problem for the CT in the effort to creat a balanced set up, this set up is a great exanple of that for all the reasions you mentioned above, the spit also has the added advantage of effective range and hitting power with it's hispanos over the German planes.
The other compounding problem is that of Human Nature as you sighted above the path of least resistance, the Spit is the Easy ride and certain players favor it and will always favor it, frakely it bugs the hell outa me, but I realise I cant change Human nature.
I also realise that the 109F and the Spit V are a good match up in an Historical since, as good a Match up as the A6M2 and the Wildcat are, both match up's are frought with their own sub issues but in the Historicaly minded CT they are about as good as we can do with the tools HTC has given us, the angsnt over withch several ant acid tablets have made the ultimate sacrifice to quiel.
For whats it is worth I take great pains to design my set up's to include time's and places that do NOT have spits in them because I am so sick and tierd of fighting them, and I shure as hell anit going to fly em. But then again I have been Flying since tour 3 so I have had time to tire of it, your milage may very.