Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Smut on March 21, 2003, 10:08:39 AM
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They rock...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,919003,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,919003,00.html)
Here is a snippet...
"Last month we accused Chirac of behaving like a worm. Today we say to the people of France: we did not go far enough. Your president is not just a worm. He has behaved like a Paris harlot."
-Smut
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It's against the law to insult the president in France? Now that's freedom.
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Arrest me, I deserve the death penalty.
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Originally posted by Martlet
It's against the law to insult the president in France? Now that's freedom.
So you can insult the president in USA?
Nice!! :)
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Sure, Naso!
Just ask Weazel. He'll show you how.
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It's call free speech. Too bad you don't have it. Here we can express our opinions.
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Originally posted by Martlet
It's call free speech. Too bad you don't have it. Here we can express our opinions.
Here too we can express our opinion, but not insult a people in public.
You can be surprised, but we too know what is freedom.
@ Toad.
Serious, you can publicly say :"Bush is an prettythang..." without being prosecuted, even in front of him?
Does'nt offending a public officer/man is breaking the law?
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Yep, you can say you think Bush is an ass...even to his face. Hell, watch some old Saturday Night Live re-runs of Chevy Chase. Bumbling, Stumbling fool would be a good description of his depiction of former (current at the time) president Ford.
SOB
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Originally posted by Naso
Here too we can express our opinion, but not insult a people in public.
You can be surprised, but we too know what is freedom.
@ Toad.
Serious, you can publicly say :"Bush is an prettythang..." without being prosecuted, even in front of him?
Does'nt offending a public officer/man is breaking the law?
You can't in Europe?
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well, at $50 billion dollars in contracts with the Butcher, at least Chirac is a high-priced harlot
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Sure it's legal to tell the President he's and ass, as long as your not in the military that is.
Remember the General who got fired for saying that Clinton was a dope smoking, draft dodging womanizer?
It was perfectly legal for him to say that... but prolly not very smart.
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Martlet: It's call free speech. Too bad you don't have it. Here we can express our opinions.
What do you think about flag burning?
miko
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Originally posted by Udie
You can't in Europe?
In Italy you can criticize as you want, but you cant call names.
Plus, if you move accusations about crimes, you have to back up or you will be sued for Diffamation(?) ("Diffamazione").
The burden of the proof is on the accuser, not the defender.
The concept behind this is that your prime minister, or president, or major, etc. is in charge and representing your state, so you indirectly are offending your state.
If i affirm in public "Berlusconi is an idiot, and a thief" I can be accused of personal offence, btw, this law is not really enforced, if you look at some talk-show, and/or satira.
But is still there, if needed (is valid for common citizens too).
Anyway, at the end it's just a question of education, personal attacks are for uneducated people.
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Vilifying the current occupant of the White House is the Number 1 hobby of all Americans...........There's nothing better than speaking your mind.....Slick Willy ( Clinton) is a hypocritical draft dodging pinhead......
Ahhhh I feel better already!
If ya don't vote, don't squeak!!!! I do and I do.
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Originally posted by miko2d
What do you think about flag burning?
miko
Just as above - it may be leagal, but its not always smart... and in my opinion, going too far.
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Originally posted by llyr69
If ya don't vote, don't squeak!!!!
I actually believe the opposite.
I don't vote, and I feel that because I had no hand in creating the problems, I have more right than anyone to complain about who you voters elected. :D
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Burning a flag is quite different.
Even if is probably intended to express a "disagreement" ;) for a nation's government policy, is a wrong act, because a flag represent more of the government itself, it represent the whole nation, and his history, and the blood that was versed to build it.
BTW, here is not enforced (I am not sure if there's even a law about it), and that is because our recent history, flag wavers, and "excessive patriots" are looked with suspect, since we had not long ago some "problems" :rolleyes: with nationalism.
(for instance is the same reason why I look some of your patriotism manifestations with fear, they are so close to what we saw 60 years ago... not saying there in US is the same, but when someone start is difficult to see where is going to end :eek: )
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Originally posted by miko2d
Martlet: It's call free speech. Too bad you don't have it. Here we can express our opinions.
What do you think about flag burning?
miko
I wish I could remember what post I already answered this in. But in short:
I'm against flag burning. I see both sides of the issue, but here's mine.
The flag is a symbol of all things that make this a country. It symbolizes it's people, government, freedom, and history. When people die fighting for our country, regardless of the popularity of the conflict, they die for us all. They die with that flag on their shoulder.
If you don't like our politics, or our government, that is fine. I don't think everyone likes everything about the U.S. If you want to protest something, then protest it. If you hate the president, then burn him in effigy. If you don't like a specific policy, then protest that. But to me burning the flag is hipocritical. You are taking something that symbolizes the land that gives you the freedom to protest, and burning it. If you are protesting the NATION, then just leave. Seriously. If you don't like the gov't, then change it. If you don't like the laws, change them. Burning the flag to me sends the same message as the people in SF beating up motorists while protesting violence. It just makes no sense.
Maybe it's because I've served my country. Maybe it's because I've seen people die while serving it. But I find it offensive, and it doesn't happen while I'm around.
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The true extend of the French government's involvement in Saddam's weapons programs is going to become increasingly evident as the invasion progresses. How big a blow this will be to their "principled" stand against the invasion depends on how gullible the world-wide anti-war leadership actually is.
Shuckins
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Originally posted by Shuckins
The true extend of the French government's involvement in Saddam's weapons programs is going to become increasingly evident as the invasion progresses. How big a blow this will be to their "principled" stand against the invasion depends on how gullible the world-wide anti-war leadership actually is.
Shuckins
Ok, let's go back in the usual BBS national attacks, and let's throw away an interesting thread.
:(
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Originally posted by Martlet
The flag is a symbol of all things that make this a country. It symbolizes it's people, government, freedom, and history. When people die fighting for our country, regardless of the popularity of the conflict, they die for us all. They die with that flag on their shoulder.
So because the flag is a symbol of freedom, you would remove the freedom to burn it? How ironic.
I fully support the right to burn the American flag within applicable vandalism and arson laws. We should never selectively enforce freedom of speech or expression regardless what it symbolizes or represents to a vast majority of the population.
In my mind, you're an idiot if you burn the flag, but you're not a criminal.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Martlet: I'm against flag burning. I see both sides of the issue, but here's mine. ...
Extensive high-spirited rhetoric noted.
So would you join the move to outlaw this particular freedom of expression because it hurts your feelings or would you disagree in private/public with the burning but keep it legal?
miko
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
So because the flag is a symbol of freedom, you would remove the freedom to burn it? How ironic.
I fully support the right to burn the American flag within applicable vandalism and arson laws. We should never selectively enforce freedom of speech or expression regardless what it symbolizes or represents to a vast majority of the population.
In my mind, you're an idiot if you burn the flag, but you're not a criminal.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Ok, I should have written this at a 3rd grade level.
As I stated before. The flag represents IN MY OPINION the country as a WHOLE. INCLUDING freedom. If you still don't understand my post, send me a PM and I'll draw you a diagram. Maybe coloring book style.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Martlet: I'm against flag burning. I see both sides of the issue, but here's mine. ...
Extensive high-spirited rhetoric noted.
So would you join the move to outlaw this particular freedom of expression because it hurts your feelings or would you disagree in private/public with the burning but keep it legal?
miko
see above reply.
i'll put together a coloring book for you, too.
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Martlet....
Can I have a coloring book too??
:D
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Originally posted by Naso
Martlet....
Can I have a coloring book too??
:D
No, you get the troll doll.
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Originally posted by Martlet
No, you get the troll doll.
WHAAAAAA!!!!!
Why a book to them and a doll to meeeeeee
WHAAAAAAA!!!!
....
.....
A blonde doll??
:eek:
:D
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Naso,
Sorry, it wasn't meant to be a national attack...just an observation on the possible motives behind the Frenchgovernment's reluctance to support the U.S. initiatives. A major scandal surrounding the government's involvement in Iraq's oil industry and weapon's programs has been developing for some time. I feel that Chirac's government is going to wind up with a considerable amount of egg on its face when the coalition forces start uncovering Saddam's weapons programs and the support he received from certain foreign governments and business concerns.
My post wasn't meant to be mean-spirited. My apologies.
Regards, (Really!) Shuckins
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Originally posted by Martlet
As I stated before. The flag represents IN MY OPINION the country as a WHOLE. INCLUDING freedom. If you still don't understand my post, send me a PM and I'll draw you a diagram. Maybe coloring book style.
Fantastic response, Martlet! Supports your point fully. You've changed my mind.
Now, please explain to me how, when the flag represents the country as a whole... INCLUDING freedom... that people should not have the freedom to burn the flag. It's not good enough to say that the people protest the nation as a whole and should leave rather than burn the flag. Obviously, if these people are burning the flag, they enjoy the freedom that their country offers to them to do so even if they protest its people, history, laws, traditions, whatever. So why should they leave and go to some place with less freedom... some place that, say, bans flag burning?
Like I've said, flag burning is idiotic. But it should never be illegal.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Naso
Anyway, at the end it's just a question of education, personal attacks are for uneducated people.
Really? Wow, maybe I shouldn't have asked Dowding if he was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth! ;)
Hiya Dowding! :D
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Naso,
Sorry, it wasn't meant to be a national attack...just an observation on the possible motives behind the Frenchgovernment's reluctance to support the U.S. initiatives. A major scandal surrounding the government's involvement in Iraq's oil industry and weapon's programs has been developing for some time. I feel that Chirac's government is going to wind up with a considerable amount of egg on its face when the coalition forces start uncovering Saddam's weapons programs and the support he received from certain foreign governments and business concerns.
My post wasn't meant to be mean-spirited. My apologies.
Regards, (Really!) Shuckins
Look Shuckins, nothing can convince me that France's stance is for humanitarian reasons (same for USA), and I bet, with some able "foreign" (for France) secret service informations delivered to the correct judges, we will discover soon a lot of strange things connecting ELF, Paris Bank, and Oil for Food program. ;)
As for the weapons, I dont think there are recent huge facts to discover, a part the usual little covered trade involving almost every country in the "first" world.
The oil part of France would be rather interesting, and huge.
It's a pity that in, say, ten years, nobody will clearly tell us where will go Iraqi's oil, but i can place a bet there will be in the "usual seven suspects" ;) with some "intermediate" step thru some "Euro-friendly" company (maybe even the ENI, the italian one).
But this war is not for oil, let's not forget, there's no oil in Iraq. ;)
Anyway, I was a little reactive, you was on-topic, and the thread hijacked, the truth is I am a little tired to read always the same personal attacks, extremist position, and a general lack of cold-minded and openminded discussions.
Sorry.
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Freedom isn't free, it's price is responsibility for your actions.
Although I agree that flag burning should be legal, it's never appropriate.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Really? Wow, maybe I shouldn't have asked Dowding if he was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth! ;)
Hiya Dowding! :D
Rip!!!!
have you finished you medicaments???
;)
You are using each single thread to attack everyone, wow!!
:)
And Dowding in particular ;)
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Originally posted by Naso
So you can insult the president in USA?
Nice!! :)
Yes, but the president can sue for libel if he can prove that the person making a false and defamatory statement had to actually know it was false or have a “reckless disregard” for the truth. So Chirac could do pretty much the same in the US. ;) Ironically the UK where the Sun is based has very scary libel laws and they'd be totally screwed if they tried this on their own prime minister, and could probably be sued to the eyeballs by Chirac if he could be bothered.
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Originally posted by -dead-
Yes, but the president can sue for libel if he can prove that the person making a false and defamatory statement had to actually know it was false or have a “reckless disregard” for the truth. So Chirac could do pretty much the same in the US. ;) Ironically the UK where the Sun is based has very scary libel laws and they'd be totally screwed if they tried this on their own prime minister, and could probably be sued to the eyeballs by Chirac if he could be bothered.
Ah!! so is almost the same, he can sue you, but he usually dont care.
But the burden of proof is on the offended?
:confused:
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Originally posted by -dead-
Yes, but the president can sue for libel if he can prove that the person making a false and defamatory statement had to actually know it was false or have a “reckless disregard” for the truth.
There is actually a different standard for libel/slander based on whether or not the target is a public figure. It is much more difficult to sue for libel or slander if you're a public figure, involving, if I'm not mistaken, the need to show more than just deliberate falsehoods.
In other words, it would be extremely difficult for an American president to successfully sue someone for libel or slander.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Fantastic response, Martlet! Supports your point fully. You've changed my mind.
Now, please explain to me how, when the flag represents the country as a whole... INCLUDING freedom... that people should not have the freedom to burn the flag. It's not good enough to say that the people protest the nation as a whole and should leave rather than burn the flag. Obviously, if these people are burning the flag, they enjoy the freedom that their country offers to them to do so even if they protest its people, history, laws, traditions, whatever. So why should they leave and go to some place with less freedom... some place that, say, bans flag burning?
Like I've said, flag burning is idiotic. But it should never be illegal.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Again, please READ the post, and TRY to take it as is. I answered this question in my original post.
The flag means different things to different people. I stated what I think it means, and I would hope many agree. If one of the things the flag represents is freedom, and you are using that freedom to burn the flag, you are hipocritically protesting the very thing which gives you the right to do so. If you protest people, fine. If you protest history, burn a book. If you protest laws, burn a bill. If you protest traditions, burn your parents.
Why show disrespect to the essence (since that's what makes this country what it is, the ideas and belief of those that were here before us) that so many people have sacrificed to preserve?
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Well... the essence isn't the flag... it's the Constitution, IMHO.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Well... the essence isn't the flag... it's the Constitution, IMHO.
I disagree. The constitution as what this nation was founded on. Much has changed and been amended. Many people disagree with portions of that constitution, as much of it is political in nature.
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Originally posted by Martlet
The flag means different things to different people. I stated what I think it means, and I would hope many agree. If one of the things the flag represents is freedom, and you are using that freedom to burn the flag, you are hipocritically protesting the very thing which gives you the right to do so. If you protest people, fine. If you protest history, burn a book. If you protest laws, burn a bill. If you protest traditions, burn your parents.
[/B]
So? It is certainly hypocritical to protest the very thing you have the right to do; this is why burning the flag is idiotic. Since when did hypocrisy become illegal? In other words, who are you to legislate that others can't be hypocrites?
Why show disrespect to the essence (since that's what makes this country what it is, the ideas and belief of those that were here before us) that so many people have sacrificed to preserve?
See, the problem here is that you keep questioning motives rather than actions. Is it hypocritical to celebrate the freedom to burn the flag by burning a symbol of freedom? Is it disrespectful to destroy something that represents the ideas and beliefs for which many have died? Yup. and you're an idiot for doing so. That doesn't mean it should be illegal. I'd hate to think that we would ever erode the part of the flag that represents freedom of expression in order to "protect" the flag.
Thankfully I live in a country that is confident enough in itself, in its people, in its history, in its traditions, and in its freedoms to understand that flag burning may be disrespectful, but it should also be legal.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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First you state that the flag is the essence because it is what makes this country what it is.
Then you state that the Constitution is what the country was founded on.
Doesn't make much sense from here... but don't let me stop you. :)
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Well... the essence isn't the flag... it's the Constitution, IMHO.
Careful, Sandman, or soon he'll be arguing to ban burning copies of the Constitution. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Ever go and see it? they whisk you past it in seconds.
Looks kinda green in the case...
"Move along... keep the line moving... "
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
First you state that the flag is the essence because it is what makes this country what it is.
Then you state that the Constitution is what the country was founded on.
Doesn't make much sense from here... but don't let me stop you. :)
Sandman- I understand that it doesn't make sense to you. That is why I urge you to buy the coloring book version of my post when it is released. It specifically targets your 3rd grade level of education.
Dead Man Flying-not once did I state burning the flag should be illegal. I don't believe it should be, since I feel that would be going against the very thing it represents. If someone wants to be a hipocritical moron, the government shouldn't stop them. I find it offensive, though, and I have stopped flag burners.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Careful, Sandman, or soon he'll be arguing to ban burning copies of the Constitution. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
I'll send you a copy too.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Sandman- I understand that it doesn't make sense to you. That is why I urge you to buy the coloring book version of my post when it is released. It specifically targets your 3rd grade level of education.
No reason to be insulting.
salamander.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
No reason to be insulting.
salamander.
Thanks.
My parents think so, too.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Dead Man Flying-not once did I state burning the flag should be illegal. I don't believe it should be, since I feel that would be going against the very thing it represents. If someone wants to be a hipocritical moron, the government shouldn't stop them. I find it offensive, though, and I have stopped flag burners.
Then we're not nearly as far apart on the issue as it would seem.
Though you are an amazinhunk. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Martlet
I'll send you a copy too.
Thanks. I'm curious what will happen to me when I burn it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Though you are an amazinhunk. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
I've known that for years ;)
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Thanks. I'm curious what will happen to me when I burn it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Absolutely nothing. Complimentary copies of "My Take on Flag Burning---Moron Edition" makes a great fire starter.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Absolutely nothing. Complimentary copies of "My Take on Flag Burning---Moron Edition" makes a great fire starter.
But there's a picture of a flag on the cover! :(
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
But there's a picture of a flag on the cover! :(
-- Todd/Leviathn
All flag images have been removed in the Moron Edition. The adult version has flags, however. If those are burned, a light flashes in "Conspiracy and Oppression HQ". My goon squad arrives shortly after to administer a savage beating. I've been told it involves pumpkins inserted into strange areas.
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Originally posted by Martlet
All flag images have been removed in the Moron Edition.
[/B]
But if you remove all images of flags from the Moron Edition, how are morons going to know that it's about flags? I mean, flags... f-l-a-g-s... that's five letters. Better to just use a picture.
The adult version has flags, however. If those are burned, a light flashes in "Conspiracy and Oppression HQ". My goon squad arrives shortly after to administer a savage beating. I've been told it involves pumpkins inserted into strange areas.
Isn't rectal pumpkinization illegal in most states?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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(http://www.direct-entry.com/latexheaven/acatalog/pumpkinft.jpg)
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Martlet: Ok, I should have written this at a 3rd grade level.
As I stated before. The flag represents IN MY OPINION the country as a WHOLE. INCLUDING freedom. If you still don't understand my post, send me a PM and I'll draw you a diagram. Maybe coloring book style.
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see above reply.
OK, let's see - by "IN MY OPINION" do you mean "the absolute infallibe truth", which means it must be outlawed or that it is just your poinion and enyone is entitled to theirs and it must not?
About "country as a WHOLE". Even if we assume your silly opinion that US flag represents that, does it mean it must be illegal to disprove of the country as a whole? What I peacefully try to persuade my state of NY to secede? Should it be outlawed?
I am not even going to the "INCLUDING freedom" stuff. The Founding Fathers would roll in their graves if they leaarned what you consider "freedom".
So, cut the crap and tell us, would you vote to outlaw the flag burning or not? Or draw a picture, whatever, smartass.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
Martlet: Ok, I should have written this at a 3rd grade level.
As I stated before. The flag represents IN MY OPINION the country as a WHOLE. INCLUDING freedom. If you still don't understand my post, send me a PM and I'll draw you a diagram. Maybe coloring book style.
...
see above reply.
OK, let's see - by "IN MY OPINION" do you mean "the absolute infallibe truth", which means it must be outlawed or that it is just your poinion and enyone is entitled to theirs and it must not?
About "country as a WHOLE". Even if we assume your silly opinion that US flag represents that, does it mean it must be illegal to disprove of the country as a whole? What I peacefully try to persuade my state of NY to secede? Should it be outlawed?
I am not even going to the "INCLUDING freedom" stuff. The Founding Fathers would roll in their graves if they leaarned what you consider "freedom".
So, cut the crap and tell us, would you vote to outlaw the flag burning or not? Or draw a picture, whatever, smartass.
miko
Your post has shown me the "Moron Edition" is far too advanced for some people. I currently have staff looking into a "Blocks Edition". This is not unlike the lettered blocks sold by Fisher Price. They target a toddler audience. I'll put you on the list. Don't worry, there are no sharp edges.
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i'd like to protest france...
martlet, in your opinion, would it be ok to burn france?
when i'm done, can i burn miko?
i can get a great deal on BBQ starter fluid, pre-season...
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Go to Orchard Supply. They have great deals on materials there!
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Originally posted by Hangtime
i'd like to protest france...
martlet, in your opinion, would it be ok to burn france?
when i'm done, can i burn miko?
i can get a great deal on BBQ starter fluid, pre-season...
Burning France is fine.
Burning miko is better. miko is a prime example for tougher immigrant regulations.