Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SwampRat on January 14, 2001, 12:59:00 AM
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OK
After a 5 hour night of getting HO'd damn near every time I get into a HO merge...and after a month+ of reading about how dweebish HO'ing is...who would like to explain to me why or even WHEN they don't take the HO shot??? Looks to me like all the squeaking about HO's I've read is complete hipocrasy. Just wondering...no really. Hell I'll be glad to join the ranks! Just thought I was being..err..."the better fighter"??? How stupid of me eh?
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SwampRat. I know this wont make you happy. But I started out the first couple weeks trying my best to be a gallant solder and turn off at an angle when approaching head on as to show I was not going to HO them. I just flat got sick of being the good guy and getting plastered in the face by four out of five people because I turned myself out of position to try to show that I wanted to do more than pull a trigger on them. I really wanted to tangle it up and let the best man win. I hated getting my flight cut short because I was "nice." So now I just blaze away as soon as I can too. At least that way I stand a chance of shooting them down first. I miss some of the old AW days when people used to be more gallant. Whels is still a hold out from those day's. I wish I could say the same. I'm just burnt out. I didn't like being slapped in the face for being a gentleman so I slapped back. I don't even think about it any more.
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Unless you're in the training arena (and then maybe not even then) or better yet, in an H2H match, why would you expect a neutral merge with no firing?
Odds are you'll get in a fight, bleed all your energy turning and then if you manage to win, someone will hit you from on high with a large energy advantage. Wasting your time being noble will do nothing but get you killed.
In a game like this, ACM is a tool. It's not the goal for me. Many pilots have other objectives, taking bases, shutting down radar, protecting bombers, etc. I have no intention of dallying around being noble. It seldom supports the mission.
sand
screamin blue messiahs
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Well, if you have a plane with
A. more speed
OR
B.better turning ability,
just do the following..
when you are about 1.4k from them heading head on, dive about 30 degrees and then just as you pass under them pull hard up, and into a loop, at the crest of the loop you will have
A: altitude advantage for manuevering.
B: you will have alt and be on their bellybutton because they kept going straight.
C: you will enter a turning contest because you both did the same thing.
any of the above is better than a HO blaze fest IMO, and believe it or not it is EXTREMELY difficult to hit a plane diving under you and if the guy does try to shoot you as you dive under it will drag him down even further giving you an even bigger alt advantage at the crest of the loop.
just make sure you have the speed to make the loop without stalling.
I think I will make a video of this for my "tactics" section on my page.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 01-14-2001).]
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Excellent point, Wobble. A HO blaze fest on the first merge really takes two to tango.
I try to avoid HO firing at the first merge simply because it puts me at risk, but I often find myself in a HO situation on the second or later merge while struggling for angles and really have little choice but to take the shot presented all the while hoping his nose doesn't come around to face me.
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Guyz'n Galz
The point is...why is there so much squeaking about the HO when everyone but EVERYONE I've run into so far does it? Beyond that...I will remain noble and IMO respectable. Fact or
Fantasy, I'd much rather give up the HO shot in order to remain the better more skillfull pilot. Hey If I give up the HO and get my narly butt wooped..then <S> to the other guy. But I'll be damned if I show one ounce of respect for the pilot that in a tight situation takes the HO rather than rely on skill and cunning to get on my 6 and earn the kill..ya...there I go again..I said EARN!! (not that it takes much to Earn a kill on me lol). Someone's got to maintain some semblance of dignity....<sigh> HO me if you will...I won't stoop.
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Swamp....its soooooo ezy to kill a guy that goes for the HO. All ya gottado is make him miss. Then you have the advantage. If your in a plane that doesnt turn as good as his you keep on going, gain alt, come back and straff him till he's dead. If you have a plane that turns better than him then you MAKE him miss(many ways to do this) and you have him beat. He's going for the shot while your getting first break on him. Once you have the first turn merge on him HE"s DEAD!!!! Unless you just suck once your on his six and you cant hit toejam (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Otherwise you won the battle on the first merge when he went for the HO and you went for position.
LLB OUT!!!!!!!!!
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HO is discussed in many threads.
It is indeed very easy to avoid being hit by a guy taking the HO shot.
You can use this "miss maneuver" to set up on the guy that pursues his HO shot all the way in.
It does take two to HO. If you have a guy boring in HO at you and you do the same....you're part of the HO.
Continuous small, smooth energy-conserving maneuvers out of plane as he closes followed by a lead turn will make him miss.
SwampRat...are you at Offutt? I used to be 38th.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 01-14-2001).]
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Yes, ya cant really call anyone a HO'dweeb because it takes 2 to HO (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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A shots a shot. When yer upta yer bellybutton in red dots or on escort missions I tend to be less descriminating in offering a guy the chance to get past me. War is hell. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Old Dick Bong sure didn't mind the HO, concidering it accounted for almost all his kills.
Anyway, if you start pulling a lead turn and slightly into the verticle at 1.0yrds on the merge, not only are you going to gain the angles, its virtually impossible to get shot.
Matter of fact, ive never gotten hit with this tactic. Only time I get HO'd usually, is when Im HO'ing. :0) I think you'll find that true yourselves.
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SwampRat:
If you ruin the HO shot and go for position while the other guy goes for the HO, you will win the vast majority of the time.
People squeak about HOs because they don't anticipate them and are too lazy to do the merge correctly and ruin the HO shot.
It makes no sense to squeak when the other guy is giving you an advantage (i.e. taking the HO shot). Or at least it makes no sense unless you are lazy or stupid or both.
Hooligan
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There is such a thing as a HO dweeb: The one who will dive from 5k alt advantage as soon as he sees your icon.
It doesn't always take 2 to HO, sometimes it's forced on you and you just can't avoid it, like in a huge furball where you've just outfoxed and dispatched someone, and see a HO dweeb barrelling straight at ya.
Some folks consider ANY front quarter shot to be a HO. Including a flat scissors where you finally push them out front and get a snapshot from (thier POV) 10/2oc and kill'em (which IMO is in no means a HO).
When I'm outnumbered I'll take any shot I got. The worse the odds against me the wilder the shot I'll take.
If I'm just feeling dweeby I'll HO your yer arse, specially if I see you setting up to go HO on me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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People who squeak about getting killed by an HO shot:
1. Were also taking the HO shot themselves, and just lost.
2. Have such limited ACM ability, that they don't know how to effectively avoid it.
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I was filming F4U fights last night. Found this one really interesting pertaining to this topic.
HO FILM (http://ckremer.home.mindspring.com/HO.ahf)
The first merge is exactly what I was saying as far as pulling at 1.0K and going vertical, and it leads to what I thought was a good position shot.(he didn't seem to think so) I guess you could call it a HO, but he wasn't in position to shoot me. Your FE makes a huge difference in AH I think.
The next F4U lives after the same type of merge due to the 1/2 5th of Macallan Scotch aiming recticle I was impaired with. (notice I even forget to retrim the whole fight, what a boner)
And finally, someone turns that F4U-D really, REALLY good and suddenly Im chasing him and in a bad position. In seconds Im looking at a face full of F4U, with another high, so infact I HO as best I could! (So does he.) Nothing left to do there imho. He is a excellent HO shot, taking off both horizontal stabs and elevators!
I find nothing wrong with any of it still, as it's the MA, not a cold guns HTH tournament.
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I just take it for granted that all F4U-C's are going to HO me given the chance. So I hunt C-Hogs 'cause I get a warm fuzzy feeling knowing I just killed another uber cannon weilding Dweebhog pile-it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Lars
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Originally posted by llbm_MOL:
Unless you just suck once your on his six and you cant hit toejam (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Uhhh...ya thats pretty much me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
SwampRat...are you at Offutt? I used to be 38th.
Ya Toad 20th IS
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For base defence, I do it all the time.
I figure: he invested 15 min to get there, and I have only invested 1 minute. If we both die I win, because I am back defending the base 30 seconds after I die and he is 15 minutes away, I can now find the goon or HO his wingman.
I also HO whenever I feel that I stand a better chance of surviving than my opponent.
eskimo
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The headon thing is great; it's like a Gieger Counter for discovering who the whining morons are.
I can't even believe this is debated.
Whining moron. That's what you are if you complain about a headon. You're a moron because not only did you put yourself in the mind-numbingly stupid situation of actually INTENTIONALLY putting yourself directly in front of your oppponents guns, but you were actually idiotic enough to complain about it over an open channel.
People start whining about this and all I hear is:
"I helped my enemy put HIS gun to my head and now I'm very upset that he pulled the trigger! I'm a naive screwhead that believes there's honor in war! He should have given away all of his advantages so that I'D be in a better position to win!"
YES you take a headon shot if you both decide to be stubborn or if you feel like rollin' the dice.
NO there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with taking a headon shot.
YES you're a FOOL for putting yourself in the position of allowing the scenario occur in the first friggin' place.
YES you're showing a decided lack of character by whining about it.
YES you're fellow pile-its are losing a little bit of respect for you every time they listen to you whine about "the dweeb that just headon'd me"
YES headons were a very real part of combat air-to-air combat in WWII
NO I'm not about to blow a gasket.
Gritz
33rd Strike Group
[This message has been edited by Gritz (edited 01-14-2001).]
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I never HO, i will actively avoid the HO by making a lead turn under NMEs nose. I havent been hit in this scenario for longer than i can remember, and it sets you up as well.
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Originally posted by Jimdandy:
SwampRat. I know this wont make you happy. But I started out the first couple weeks trying my best to be a gallant solder and turn off at an angle when approaching head on as to show I was not going to HO them.
If your turning away from them from a front qaurter approach im not suprised you got your bellybutton handed to you.
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Originally posted by Creamo:
Old Dick Bong sure didn't mind the HO, concidering it accounted for almost all his kills.
Anyway, if you start pulling a lead turn and slightly into the verticle at 1.0yrds on the merge, not only are you going to gain the angles, its virtually impossible to get shot.
Matter of fact, ive never gotten hit with this tactic. Only time I get HO'd usually, is when Im HO'ing. :0) I think you'll find that true yourselves.
That's because Ol Dicky was a horrible deflection shooter.
Then ya got a guy like Chuck Yeager...he learned his lesson when he got shot down his 9th mission to a HO vs a FW. After that, he avoided them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
33rd FW www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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Seems to me the solution should be readily apparent to eveyone:
Always HO, but do it with TRACERS off
that way if film is rollin' it looks like ya did a cold merge, and the enema doesn't see ya shooting on his FE 'til it's too late.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I crack myself up!
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Its silly not to shoot when the enemy is in your sites. It is also silly to stay in the enemy's sites for longer than necessary.
What makes you a dweeb is how often you fail to find a good balance between these two.
AKDejaVu
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I go for the headon when I have a lower E state, because I doubt I can get behind the guy. Its the only chance to shoot him I will get, then its just waiting to be shot down from behind.
If I have a wingman, I don't ever go for the risky headon. I use wingman tactics and try to get him to commit to chasing one of us, so the other gets a free shot at his 6.
Hans.
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Folks..this is Biff, Biff was addicted to HO'ing for 30 years, after squinting through the gunsight at the oncoming fighters for so long his face finally stuck this way. (http://www.uglypeople.com/uglymen/up-images/up-men-00395.jpg)
HAVE WE LEARNED A LESSON!?
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yep milinko, thats another advantage to having tracers off, if you're in a situation where ya gotta HO, you peel the guys wing, you can play it off on channel 1 like you collided, because he never saw you shooting anyways. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ahh, the question remains. Why is there so much squeaking about the HO while it would appear that everyone (nearly) does it. I mean really...as often as I see "HO DWEEB" and similar ch1 messages (I'm guilty), and posts about it on this BB I would THINK the HO wouldn't be so prevalent. Must have been an off night for me cuz I swear every pile-it that got into any position to take a HO shot did so. Sometimes of course you can tell it's a real flight-sim newbie..you know, the guy that starts blazeing away about 2k out lol, but other than that, with all I hear bout how easy it is to avoid the HO, and knowing from experiance it really is a waste of ammo and a good bet you'll lose a wing even if ya do manage to hurt the other guy, I just don't see why everyone does it unless it's just a pure lack of discipline. Of course the field defense excuse posted earlier this thread is a good one, but that only detracts from the overall realism IMHO, thank cod for scenarios.
I wouldn't want anything to change concerning the HO, cod know's one of the things I hated (HATED) about AirWarrior was that you couldn't get into a fite without the "other-guy" turning head-on into you...due to the lack of collisions and the safety of knowing he wouldn't get any damage even if the attacker was blazing away head-on, it was the same old tedious dogfite over and over and over.
Thanks for the responses
...Gritz, ...sheesh
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Wobble, nearly p...d my pants ;-) Great stuff.
Avoiding HO's easy: Around 1.2+ start a small barrel roll around the guys vertical axis and time it so you can pull a lead turn under the guy's nose. He'll end up adjusting his aim all the time for your roll and looses sight under nose when you pass. From there on, game's on.
I agree that often it's best to take a HO when in low-E and the guy is pounding down on you. Important to have nuff E to keep nose steady up, I enjoy getting people to do it with not nuff speed nad their nose bouncing all over the place when I'm accelerating coming down. Those are the best HO kills ;-)
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Personally, my feelings are mixed on the issue (if it really IS an issue).
I dislike it when someone comes in from an alt advantage and just HO's, but then I think to myself: Who is the dummy, me for just setting there and letting do it, or him, for just rushing straight in and blazing away?
Other times, like when I am outnumbered (which happens ALOT when ya fly rook), I figure if I am gonna go out, I am taking a few with me if I can. So, I HO each idiot that lets himself get in my sights.
The bottom line, IMHO, is that if you let yourself get in front of someone else's guns, basically, YOU screwed up. You can whine and call the other guy a "HO dweeb", but the bottom line is, he did the same thing you did, tried to get a gun solution, and apparently was successful. I used to get mad, like it seems some still do, but now I ask myself why I let it happen.
So, in conclusion, instead of griping at and about the other guy, think the situation over and ask yourself the same thing. Most times, you didn't think the other guy could get around and get pointed at ya.....and you screwed up, nothing more, nothing less.
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I very seldom will take the HO shot. The exceptions being
A not enough E for immelman
B outnumbered 3 to 1
C Field defense where I can respawn right away.
D Selected planes with light guns, example, C.202, (hey he only has peashooters, I can win this one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
When I do go for the HO, I like to shoot at LONG range, & break hard about 400 to spoil his shot.
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If I'm in a CHOG otw to a JABO drop and you present a HO opportunity, I will shoot... every single time.
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If I outgun you and you can outturn me, I go for whatever clear shot you give me.
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Generally, I won't HO unless someone has E/alt and is doing a boring dance on my head. You know the type... dive, make a half-hearted attempt at a cockpit shot, then extend and grab again. Repeat ad nauseum. I'll humor them a few times with this, then pull into a HO shot without warning on one of the passes.
Nothing says loving to a 51 like four 20mm Hispanos right in the face.
-- Todd/DMF
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To all H2H fans. Ignore all the dont HO posts. I find it much harder to set up my turns, if I dont know where you are going.
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Hm, well you chaps seem to be talking about merge Ho's only. I'll just make a quick comment on that.
Two FW190A8s, both at the same speed merge. D2.0, one definitely goes for the HO, the other decides to avoid it. Turns a bit left to create an offset angle, rolls right and pulls a little, avoiding the HO.
Both zoom. Which 190 will win?
This is what I mean when I say "giving up position to avoid a HO". There are other ways of avoiding HO's that are riskier but conserve more e, such as merely diving below the nose of the enemy. Doesn't work too well if the guy has hisps and is spraying.
As to other kinds of HO's, the ones I am caught in are the ones where both go vertical, come around and desperately try to get guns on before the other guy. these are hard to avoid, especially if you're in he A8, because the laternative is either running straight and having him on your six, or a gentle pullup that places you higher than the enemy, but with him on your 6.
And having an enemy on your 6 in the 190 is generally not a good thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
I'll HO when outnumbered or when outta options - or, like this tour, when i've designated the tour a Dweeb tour (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"All your base/are belong to us"
http://www.thefever.com/AYB2.swf
Keep up the momentum!
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Noble... honorable.. BAH
I fly in the MA to get kills and to RTB said kills.
that requires:
a) to make kills e.g. to get engaged
b) to avoide unnecessary risks
c) to take a shot when the oportunity arrises
if you come at me co alt with me not having enough speed to go vertical whet you expect that i show my belly side for you to lead turn on me ? hell no i'll try to give you as small a turning room as possible because i'm likely to try to get some distance to build speed or to disengage if an advantage can not be obtained.
There's no such thing like a "cheap" shot
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b) is the key here duck (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
I.e if ya HO when ya got huge alt adv and other safer options, then it's a dumb move (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"All your base/are belong to us"
http://www.thefever.com/AYB2.swf
Keep up the momentum!
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think i'xplained it 2 lines lower no ?
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Why do people whine about HO's? Because they lose. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Just a note Santa. In the situation you mention above with the two 190's... the one that avoided the HO will definately have a positional advantage. You may not get an E advantage in the zoom though. The trick is that the fellow who avoids the HO can do something like a roll that doesn't cost much E, and transition into an immelman, while the guy avoiding can be pulling into the immelman earlier doing a vertical lead turn. The guy taking the HO shot normally has to overshoot below you if you avoid below his nose, so he is going to burn more E in the pull up, and lose position due to pulling up later. In my experience the guy who avoids ends up with advantages in both areas. Indeed, this is how I work a higher bogey who is BnZing me. After several passes, you can often wear down his E advantage enough to surprise him and turn the tables.
One other observation. You guys mention how somebody with a "huge E advantage" will dive down and HO you. Well, remember how FAST that guy is likely going. He sets up for a run on you, and you turn into him... setting up for the HO. At this point he is really fast, and can't maneuver very quickly at all. It's unlikely he'll be able to maneuver well enough to avoid the HO at high speed, and he is loath to do any hard maneuvering to try and maintain his E advantage. If you are too low on E to get out of his way, or silly enough to try the HO, of course the BnZer is going to try it. Generally the BnZ pilot also has a plane with great guns and good armor, so he can be more confident of winning the HO.
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-21-2001).]