Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: eskimo on March 29, 2001, 09:16:00 AM
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Before 2 days ago, I had never flown the 109s more than a couple of sorties a tour (Just enough frustrate myself with it.). Now that I have the hang of it, I am a big fan.
I have been flying the G-2 because... well I like Finland... I guess.
What I want to know is; what are the differences between the 4 types we have in AH?
I know that each newer type is faster and climbs better than the previous. But how about handling.
Do the early birds turn better?
Are they better at slow speeds?
Is compression the same in all of em?
Can any of em be ditched with 1/2 a wing missing?
Anything els worth noting?
(I put the above post in "Help And Training" as well. Please respond there so that others can also read what you have to say beyond tomorrow, when this post has been bumped to page 3.)
Thanks
eskimo
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"Lawndart incarnate" is a pretty accurate description of any 109 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Seriously, IMO they all handle quite nicely at low G's and low speed and the F4 can turn too. I can't really give any definite advice except that don't get caught without an alt advantage unless you are flying the G10 or are pretty good.
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SageFIN
"I think I´ll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you don´t
believe in Gosh too, you´ll be darned to heck."
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eskimo im no expert on the 109 but heres my basic overveiw:
109F trick the enemy into thinking you are a later model and then turn fight them (not nikis,spits,zeros).Only works early in a fight! once enemy realises you are so slow they will disengage and re-engage at will.As with all 109s you can rope well in them.
109g2 the best 109 alrounder in my opinion.I use the g2 with gondalas and can often take out bombers with 1 or 2 passes shooting the wings.It can climb under wep and cools down very quickly so it makes an excellent interceptor.The best 109 for base defence for me.
109g6 I cant find anything about the g6 that i cant get in similar or superior levels from either g2 or g10.I dont use it.
109g10 Obviously the speed is its greatest weapon and those chunky 30mm (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).Great plane but exceptionally hard to kill in i think.when you have to make adjustments in a high speed bnz it takes too long because of compression/wing load? etc.so you have to take risks to get that all important resolving shot.Acceleration ,speed and zoom climb are all excellent but for some reason i do feel it loses energy very quickly under any excessive g. 0g manouvering is the way to go with the 109, you will get a real feel for the manouver if you learn in 109's.
sorry i cant give you more but i have since become a 190 flyer! I undoubtedly live longer in them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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F4= slow, good turner
G2= fairly slow, good turner (I use gondolas on the F4 and the G2 most of the time)
G6= only real advantage over G2 is availability of 30mm tater gun. 1 ping=Boom (90% of time).
G10= very fast, 30mm tater gun, must use elevator trim keys to avoid compression at high speeds.
I have my elvevator trims mapped to my stick for use in the 109's. I threw a few pointers together on the assassins webpage for flying the G10. Click on the banner below then go to "Gustav for dummies" on the bottom left. It was typed up before the big flight model change, but a lot of it still applies.
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(http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/assassins3.gif) (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm)
EMAIL hblair@aceshighcs.com
EMAIL assassins@aceshighcs.com
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 03-29-2001).]
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I fly the 109f with gonds almost exclusively. It turns well and compresses the least, maybe because it is slower. Good ftr for one on one (unless it's Mitsu, then I just get my chute ready), knock em dead in h2h arena. The perk points are up there too.
Don't fly the g2 (don't care for the swastikas)
The g6 has better maneuverability while the g10 is your climber if you have to get high fast. Don't go over 400 in them as they will compress easily. Use your elevators & throttle to help you control high speed flight.
Eagler
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Originally posted by Eagler:
Don't fly the g2 (don't care for the swastikas)
Sorry Eagler, its not a swastika. Its the Von Rosen cross. It was the Finnish Air Force symbol since 1918. Nothing to do with a certain austrian corporal and his idealisms.
Best regards,
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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Good point Camo on the swastika, My favorite ride is the F4, have quite a few kils in it, and I use it for base defense against carrier planes. She will out turn the F4U's and outrun the seafire, the F6F well it is just fodder. Always carry the gondolas, and 50% fuel+DT. Surprisingly will take a hit or two, great acceleration, climbs nice above average, and will turn as well, low speed turning with a hint of flaps andshe will get around most planes, cept zero, zeke and spit V. Plus you can rack up some quick perks in it envy 40. The G-2 I got my first kill in it last night after a few unsuccesful sorties, andit happened ot be over a buff! OK not a real buff a JU-88. G_2 is the turner of the G-series, G-6 gain some speed and add 30mm and 13mm replace the 7.9mm. G-10 I have not figured out, fast climbs like a rabbit on crack, hard hitting,if you can land them. Not so great in the turning department, over 400 is very how to say, ok it will just go straight at 450 controls lock up. F4 is the pick of the litter IMO.
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Thanks Guys!
I guess I shouldn't have used the term "Expert". Whatever an expert is? It's a relative term.
We'll say for this thread that an expert is anyone who's flown the various types enough to have a feel for how they are different.
In other words, please chime in if you also have a clue/opinion.
thanks,
eskimo
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Originally posted by Eagler:
Don't fly the g2 (don't care for the swastikas)
*cough cough*
Since when swastikas have been blue and tilted at 90 degree instead of 45 degree?
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109 is great!
What more can I say?
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Key to Flying Me 109:
When the enemy gets behind you, and you don't have any altitude to work with, don't bother with such silly things as "BFM", "ACM", or "scissors" - those are for beginners or for real life flying. This is a game, and game you must! Take your joystick and move it in a circle, like you were stirring a pot of something yummy.
Be careful! Don't stir too quick because you might get the "Don't Move Your Controls So Rapidly" message. But if you stir it just right, the enemy will never be able to hit you due to the microwarps produced by the procedure.
Then when he runs out of ammo and reverses for home, turn and use your excellent level acceleration to catch and dispatch him.
Enjoy!
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Originally posted by Fishu:
*cough cough*
Since when swastikas have been blue and tilted at 90 degree instead of 45 degree?
okay okay, I give, I'll give the g2 a try (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler
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ROTFLMAO Funked!
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109s are my favorite. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I miss the 109K-4.
In general the 109s have a good climb rate over enemy aircraft. However, as time passed, other airplanes became superior.
All of the posts mentioned above have good advice. You will find that all of the 109s have decent neg G performance.
Also the first few intital turns will be good but after you bleed speed and E, the performance suffers.
109s are the definitive B&Z aircraft. Especially with gondolas or the 30mm setup.
Controlling the compression is key to all varients. If you can learn to dive fast, destroy and climb out you have much success. Couple that with good SA and you will be formidable.
Most pilots like the FW or Spits. But if you can become a killer in a 109 you are a REAL man/Pilot. But im biased anyway.
Keep experimenting and keep flying them.
Karaya One, out
[This message has been edited by Karaya One (edited 03-29-2001).]
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Learn wingman tactics and rope-a-dope strategies. Practice extending and low level scissors moves.
I don't have any real experience in the 109, but this is what they always seem to be doing whenever I see one in the arena.
AKDejaVu
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I like 109's as best gun platforms for me..
I can shoot down fighter with 13 cannon rounds (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Though, I don't prefer 30mm at all if im supposed to kill fighters.
One good blast of 20mm, even on highly maneuvering enemy, means death for him.. while with 30mm you have a good chance to miss him.
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Here are films of 2 sorties LLv34 did today. They're the same mission, we just had a refuel in the middle.
In the first fight we had 3 pilots: Camo in G-6 w/ 30mm, DB603 and mk in G-2's with 3x20mm. We scored 5 victories without losses.
Then we headed to refuel and were joined by 1wmaker1 and mora. Both in G-2's I believe. We scored another 6 victories without losses, wiping the skies clear of enemies.
All in all, 11 victories without a single ping being taken by any of us. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Enjoy. (http://www.pp.htv.fi/vpitkane/LLv34_2sorties.zip) (627KB zip)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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You have to remember that You have very little ammo in 109.Especially if You fly the ones with the 30mm.
You have to get very close before You open fire,or You`ll be out of ammo in 2 sec.This ain`t a spray and pray plane.
I have fire all weapons as default mapped on my stick,so when I open from 250 with my G6 with gondolas and 30mm,a half secound burst can really mess any fighter up.
As far as handeling goes,You just have to spend time in it,and figure out the things it can or can`t do.
Elevator trimming is very important,the G6 handels lot better than G10 in dives at high speed IMO.That and the 30mm is my reason for flying the G6 most the time ,compared to other 109s.
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Originally posted by Caligula the one and only:
You have to remember that You have very little ammo in 109.Especially if You fly the ones with the 30mm.
You have to get very close before You open fire,or You`ll be out of ammo in 2 sec.This ain`t a spray and pray plane.
LOL, see my first kill from the film and tell me again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Camo
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Sturm: "G_2 is the turner of the G-series, G-6 gain some speed and add 30mm and 13mm replace the 7.9mm."
The G-6 is slower than the G-2 actually. They share the same DB 605A-1 engine, but the G-6 is obviously heavier and has extra drag from the MG 131 "bumps".
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Advice from one of the best 109 drivers ever in Aces High.
CLASSIFIED DOCUMENT - JG2 ONLY (DISCLAIMER: THE INFO HERE IS NOT LAW USE YOUR OWN DISCRETION WHEN APPLING THESE TACTICS IN A WARTIME ENVIROMENT)
To fly and fight in the Me-109 G-10:
Let’s start with a brief description of this fighter and what it is capable of doing in air combat. The 109 in Aces High I would deem an advanced plane to fly for the following reasons.
1. Poor fuel efficiency and time over the battlefield
2. Small gun package with even smaller ammo load out.
3. Excessive trim input to keep plane in flight
4. Raped climb in version .39 of Aces High; now corrected a good bit in version .46
Now lets talk about the good things:
1. Good energy retention under light handling
2. Good roll and maneuverability when in proper trim
3. Accurate gun package with little convergence, can set at 350yds with no problems
4. Acceleration and Topspeed
5. Unique climb characteristics exp. 2k per minute @ 275 MPH sustained climb
Basic energy tactics in 109:
Offense-
The 109 are an excellent Energy fighter able to use its speed and climb to control the battle. These traits are necessary when considering that you will have few chances to kill the enemy with one burst. My experience with this plane is usually to fly using Robert Shaw’s tactics of beating your enemy first and then killing him. I will now guide you to do this.
Exp: 2 planes are of similar e states have just turned to start the head-on and merge at say 5k. As the planes close the Me109 is trying to get maximum speed so that he has some vertical options at the merge. Also note that when in a 109 never go for the head-on shot, Why? Your plane is flimsy, always try to avoid all enemy fire. Even 13mm bullets can be fatal so don’t do it. Instead come into the merge at a slight angle so that the enemy has to really turn to get any sort of deflection lead on your plane. This is a good thing because if he goes for the shot he bleeds energy quickly and you can parry this attack by using a low g turn either in or against to the grain to throw off his shot. After the planes pass, gently go into a low g immelmann and watch what your opponent does. If he does any high energy maneuvers with the exception of a immelmann to match yours then you will have him in 1-2 more turns (most planes do this high energy bull and are easy meat.) If the enemy did any sort of immelmann then go into extended climb and use that unique climb ability of the 109 to set up another merge attempt after say 3k or so. (If you feel brave you can also do the double imelman which is awesome when it works but is very risky due to head-on shot enemy will take on you at top of immelmann # 1)
So say the enemy did a high-energy turn and I am over him now what do I do, do I dive and attack? No you do not, you go into slight dive toward enemy which usually entices the enemy to try to get a gun solution on your aircraft (the solution is head-on or high deflection usually) You parry just as you did before but you have option of going high yo-yo now. This is where it gets fun. By now this guy should be chugging and you are still misering energy, so now its time to use that extra power. Now just use good ACM to finish the enemy. That’s it…. Simple…. (If for any reason he’s not chugging rinse and repeat the merge tactics after separating, sooner or later frustration will set in and he’ll make a mistake)
Now there are exceptions to these tactics. In the arena its usually gang bangs so try to know where you are at all times and know what direction to escape in…You don’t want to be performing your energy ballet and have some uber dweebstang pilot come diving in on you. I can’t stress this enough..
Defense-
Defense in a 109 is pretty simple in 1 Vs 1 engagements here's why. Roll is good in a 109 combined with the fact that it turns well is even better. Exp. You in a 109 are traveling and spitfire starts diving in on your 5, 6, or 7 o’clock (this happens all the time) after you just blew up someone. Don’t fret stay calm get as much speed as you can and wait till spit is say 700-800 yards (this depends on net lag and rate of closure) and closing for shot. Do a low energy turn to the right or left and spit will start to close even faster, now that he is firing or ready to; quickly barrel roll the opposite direction of low g turn and force the over shot. If he’s smart he will climb out and try to get another shot (back to square one but he has less energy though, so repeat this process) If he is dumb or overconfident he will try to cut throttle/bleed e by jinking and stay on you 6… This is good in a way, he is usually under 300yds spraying and praying. “What ACM should I use, he’s right on me?” I personally like rolling scissors when they are that close, why? Look at it from their perspective, he just botched shot and is now really pissed and wants blood. He will do anything to kill you and you use this against him in the scissors maneuver. Be sure when you do the scissors to make first turn a low under horizon turn and follow with e bleeder high-angle turn. From the enemy’s view u break out of gun solution low and by the time enemy adjusts your energy is way lower and you zip right through his view going the opposite direction ugHH! (If he’s is really good then he will use e advantage to high yo-yo and get back on you 6. So watch for this and cut back into enemy to close angle and force head-on or high deflection shot, at least make him earn the kill don’t just give it to him. If he did drooping high yo-yo then you have a little time to get some speed back and are back to square one with him on you 6.)
Lets talk about Trim:
Trim is the most import aspect about flying the 109. All other aircraft can fly and still get job done even out of trim a bit. The 109 simply does not fly out of trim, it fights you. I suggest mapping trim keys to your hat switch on your joystick if you haven’t already. These helps but use whatever works for you do it to keep your aircraft in trim.
I can successfully take my 109 to over 500 mphs but it takes practice…. And note that if whatever you are chasing turns you must use trim to turn with it. Exp.- if enemy breaks right, trim right to roll and crank elevator up trim to really turn hard, if you don’t, you get mush-omatic turn performance and you will have to catch enemy again.
I must say trim is overmodeled in 109 big time. Historically Luftwaffe 109’s where easy to trim. One or two cranks of wheel would trim the aircraft. Also note that a aircraft in real life out of trim is still flyable and not a deathtrap…
High-tech could make this easier by having manual trim presets. Some say that realism may suffer but I think any ace in any plane would be able to trim aircraft in say 1-2 sec’s as opposed to the 3-4 sec’s it takes in this simulation due to slow trim key times.
Well enough babble about trim…. This will at least get you started in the 109. Also note that these energy tactics really work well in most fighters. Some guy was complaining because I did double imelman in a 190a8 to gain an energy advantage and tap-danced on his head; he was piloting a spitfire. He sweared I had more energy at the merge. Actually I created energy by smart flying. Hope he doesn’t read this tutorial.
More basics and quirks:
Don’t expect to shallow dive escape the 109.. It is very light and Aces High models this; most other aircraft will out dive you. (This lack of dive can be used to your advantage in steep dives when enemy is trying to shoot you. By going steep dive the enemy will gain energy faster than you and give you a chance to out turn him by radius and escape)
When fighting try to keep the fight going up. Your aircraft excels at this so use it’s strength. Always keep enough energy to maneuver incase things turn on you. Exp: on reversals always go high yo yo or immelmann every little bit helps.. Also if you must dive and gain e quickly don’t forget about unloading the plane… Exp: 0-G dive as mush as possible when diving.
Maximize fuel by getting to alt under full power and attaining a good cruise speed; then power down engine by adjusting manifold and rpm settings. (My preference is 2000-2500 rpm and 40 on the manifold)
Use the benefits of the 109’s tight gun package…. Exp: My convergence is 350, that gives me an effective range of 500-700 yds out. Most wing mounted arms can shoot that far but when under their convergence setting they over shoot and never hit the target in the same spot with both wings thus reducing firepower greatly.
Regards,
DoctorYO
JG-2 “Richthofen”
Dunno what happened to Doc, haven't seen him online in ages.
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Yep, Dr Yo was the master in the 109.
Hiyas Jihad.
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Milo
3./JG2
"Speed is the cushion of sloppiness"
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Beware guys,
With the latest patch,
gondolas will be de-sellected at fields with less than 100% fuel. When it takes away your DT, it takes the gondolas too. At least I think that is what is happening.
eskimo
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Great advice, thanks.
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Where o where is the good doctor. WHERE?
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SImple advice on the 109 it's 109TASTIC (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
9./Jg54
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/squads/approved/kirin.gif)
Besser tot als rot!
[This message has been edited by Glasses (edited 05-21-2001).]
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i like 109 except i try to turn and burn in any thing that turns halfdecent called the SPIT DISEASE.
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One of my most memorable and exhausting fights happend when I was bounced by a higher Spitfire MkIX while at 10,000ft and climbing in a Bf109G-2, sans gondalas.
As soon as I saw him I dropped by tank and went nose down, rudder left and corkscrewed till I got some speed, then the fight was on...
I don't remember the specifics of the rest of the fight (it was a long time ago), but it went on for what felt like forever with MANY really close calls. I finally managed to put a 20mm round into his engine and that ended the fight. It took every ounce of skill I had to win that one.
Higher Spits can be defeated by the Bf109G-2 at least.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak