Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Stridr417 on March 26, 2003, 07:36:58 AM
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Hi all - I want to take the plunge and pick up the TM Cougar setup, but before I do, I want to make *certain* that I'm making the right choice. To that end, how do all you current Cougar users find the experience? Is it worth the money, or should I stick with a cheaper solution like Saitek?
I'm running WinXP pro, 512Mb RAM, AMD 800MHz (soon to be 1.3GHz). I need it to work with my existing CH analog pedals. My current stick is a beat up TM Top Gun, which is only marginally functional.
Lastly, how do i slip this purchase past my wife, who is not thrilled with the idea of a 400$ "toy"?
This is primarily for Warbirds III, but I figure that there is enough in common with the 2 sims to post my questions here as well ;)
Thanks!
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I very much like my Cougar, it's the best stick I have ever owned. The feel of the stick is like nothing else out there and all the hatswitches (all 8 way hats) and buttons have a really nice positive feel without being clicky like some sticks are. The springs feel a little stiff at first but you soon get used to them after a few sorties and the throttle has an adjustable tension wheel so you can alter it to suit your taste.
Programming the Cougar may seem daunting at first but if you follow the excellent FOXY tutorial you'll have a profile done in no time although if you do decide to purchase one (you'd be doing yourself a disservice is you did'nt) I have profiles for Aces High, IL-2, Warbirds II and Warbirds III to get you started at my squads site here (http://www.no9squadron.com/downloads.htm).
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Great, thanks for the advice. I've noticed that they are getting harder to find as well...
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I would say I am pleased with it in almost every aspect but one and I don't have the money to fix that right now. I must be lucky in that I have not increase in the "center" play on my stick but I do wish the "flat spots" around the movement were not there. But with that said I am pleased with the purchase and it has done well. Although there is a glitch many Cougar users have found where you are not able to install the newest software for the stick. I have been banging my head on the installation wall since December and have gotten zero support from the alleged Cougar Support team at TM. I have gotten "un-official" support from TheMoon (guy over at Cougar World who works for TM) and he has tried to help out with every known trick but no change.
I personally think it is something to do with my WinXP installation and that is something I am changing in the next couple of weeks.
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Reschke> You're not alone in not having any increase in centre play, out of interest I dug out my old CH and Saitek stick and the Saitek was the worst of the bunch and I remember feeling the play increase while the Cougar and the CH stick were roughly the same.
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Great sticks except for the center play and lack of precision for small aim adjustments, which is part and parcel to the play.
I had 3/4's inch of movement after 5 months with mine before I sold it.
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almost no center 'play' after 5 months here...
I love it.
I do have a little problem with the main hat though..
gonna look into it when I get time
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My Cougar is far & away the best peripheral I've owned. Basic programming is not at all difficult while the in-depth logical programming lets you do some amazing things.
I've had mine for a year and have no more than the mm or two of center play that it had when I bought it. Which was exactly on par with every other stick I've owned, including my CH Pro stuff.
I've got no real problems with the weight of the springs. I wouldn't mind if maybe the transition spots between the axis' were a little less prominant, but it's certainly not enough to turn me off of the stick.
The one downside? The fact that there are no rudders with toe brakes that'll plug right into the thing. My USB CH Pro's work fine in AH, but some games won't let you use two different controllers. (Mostly just some older stuff though. Pretty much eveyrthing recent lets you assign in game controls to any different physical controls you have plugged in.)
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79530&highlight=cougar
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love it. little bit of play after a year but the fine control never got to where I want it.
so time for this.
(http://members.optushome.com.au/ianj/U-201.JPG)
that should just about do it.
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Pongo is that what I think it is? The Ultra mod from IJ down in Oz? You bastard why do you have to tempt us with things like that. :D Especially when I am in the midst of a mod time like I am now.
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Had mine for about a year now and have been very pleased with the whole thing.
The programming capability is fantastic, even though I don't fully understand how to achieve its full capabilities I have managed by 'borrowing' profiles from other users and modifying to suit my own needs. You don't have to be an expert to get the most out of it - just ask in the user groups, there is always someone ready to share their skills.
It feels fantastic to handle, and despite the various comments about heavy springs, centre play etc., just blows everything else out of the water. I was a long time user of CH kit and would hear nothing said against them until they effectively withdrew support for non-USB kit and I had to look elsewhere.
Once I had tried the Cougar, there was no contest in terms of feel, capability and perhaps most importantly, flying pleasure.
Yes, in common with any change of stick my results went downhill initially, but quite frankly it didn't matter, it just felt much better and consequently I quickly returned to my normal pathetic level !
I would recommend the Cougar every time.
Fox
Krait Squadron
:) ;) :)
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My squad airboss has a cougar set up that he hasn't even used yet... he might be willing to part with it if you email him...
email me if your intersted along with contact info and I'll forward the info to him. You guys can work it out from there
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I love my Cougar.
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Okay, the Cougar has it's problems like any other stick but on the whole I'm extremely satisfied with the Cougar. The best thing is that you can take all of it apart really easily. It has good community support and also upgrade kits. It's by far the best stick I've ever owned.
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I have mixed feelings about mine. When its working it is awsome. However, when it decides to crap out for no apparent reason its more then aggrivating. There are 2 of them in our house and mine is the most troublesome of the 2. I have a nose bounce when pulling up that has gotten so bad its now unflyable. Havent narrowed it down yet.
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It's funny. I have been troubleshooting my PC and was blaming the Cougar (wrongly it seems). I bought a Topgun Afterburner to see, and you know I'm not so sure about the Cougar anymore. The Afterburner is simpler, more precice, more comfortable.
I have my cougar sitting there looking at me and I'm in no hurry to reinstall it. I miss the extra buttons though.
Naturally I still use CH Pro rudders. Moving to rudders was the best thing about the Cougar purchase. If you are tight for cash at all, I wouldn't rush out and buy a Cougar. I think only two of us in the vikings have a cougar. The best pilot's I've come across don't have one. A flight sim like AH needs precision and fine control, not necessarily a metal replica of a real (jet) fighter stick and certainly not FFeedback.
Likewise I dislike the slight play and wear in my Cougar and there are dodgy USB drivers which the Windows Driver verifier system doesn't like. Having said that I think I've eliminated the Cougar as the cause of my particular problem.
I also dislike the idea of buying expensive mods for it. Does the stick make you better at Aces High ? Not in my case. But then nothing would in my case lol:)
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Pongo, that the even strain spring mod? $475 USD is what I remember for that.....hmmm sell the wife, sell the car then mebee ;)
btw, Cougar owner for almost a year. Love it Hate it, still works better and more consistently than any other system I have owned (Saitek x35,X45, MSPPro etc. stick museum in the closet, 25cents for a tour)
Waiting on Cubpilots HS mod to show on my doorstep any day.
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Hmm, the TM afterburner looks likes an interesting compromise. Any idea if it would work with my existing CH analog pedals under XP? From what I gather is comes with a rudder on the throttle, but pedals are much preferable?
Also, how do you find the tension on the afterburner?
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USB pedals are better. Not a good idea to mix USB and Gameport unless the gameport plugs direct to stick (like cougar).
Tension on afterburner id nice and there id NO play in the centre.
It is a bit notchy though.
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The Cougar is great. Once you've touched it you don't want to have your old stick back. But it has issues. One of the most aggravating thing is to pay a lot for this toy and it makes you a worse pilot than a cheap stick at 1/10th of it's price. No kidding, your hit% will go down substantially (I had 17% with a worn out 3 years old X.36 and a meager 10% with the Cougar. This might be an especially bad example but other Cougar owners have similar experiences)
Some will tell you that it needs time for the springs to 'run in' and that you'll get used to the stiffness. The real problem with the Cougar isn't the stiffness, however. It's the inaccuracy caused by hi stick forces and the dreaded 'flat spots'. Try to draw a circle with it. It's impossible. Now we don't yank the stick around in circles in the sim but the problem hits you in the back when you're on someone's six and he doesn't fly straight - you'll have a hard time making a precise transition from pulling back to pushing down the stick while at the same time maintaining a constant pressure to the left (i.e. rolling your plane and pushing down the nose).
On the up side - flying with the Cougar is a whole new experience of your sim, it adds substantially to the immersion and fun. If you have the opportunity: try and test it before you buy it - or - if you don't mind losing precision and you're flying 'for fun only' without kills or stats in mind: buy it immediately. You won't be disappointed. :)
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Its the Utimate 2 mod.
I aggree with the above post. I cant fly the same with a cougar. The fine control is just not there, nose bounce is crippling some times...
But I do love the thing..Thats why Im spending 400 US to upgrade it including hall sensors...
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I like it, best stick around. I have no mods.
Gunner
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Offers vast possibilites.
If you want it perfect though, you better invest in HAL mod and fix the center play (by yourself or buying a mod).
Pongo, any more info on that thing ? Are those CubPilot's HAL pots or is IJ offering them now as well ?
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He is starting production on Monday. In batches of 10. I get the 16th one...
He is shipping them with light and medium springs.
They are cubs hall sensors.
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Never heard of this until I saw this thread. Seem a little hard to come by though. Are they still in production?
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SAITEK ALL THE WAY!!!
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I remember having the Old Saitek sticks analog port. They had crappy pots and crappy HOTAS rudder control I broke mine a month after the purchase of the sytem did they fix it all in the new sets.
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My Saitek X36 is still as accurate as it was 2 years ago when it was new.
I use rudder pedals.
I will soon move to all CH gear though.
Decided against the Cougar because I'm more into small precision movements for aiming and flying thru hangars inverted.
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CH is so far the best stick I've had am going on to 3 years with this stick and still works and it's as precie as the day I bought it. Same goes for the rudders 2 years using them and no problems what so ever :D
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Are those USB? can I go to your house and try them?
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Yes and no :D
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Then I'll break in and force myself on your... computer!
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Wow! Its the most expensive stick on the market, and you guys are spending hundreds (sometimes > $500) to "mod" it?!?!?!?! Damn. You must have more money and patience than I have ;)
I tried Cougars and didn't like them. Overly heavy stick forces and difficulty in precision flying.
I'll stick with my full CH Pro setups. I had my gameport models for 4 years before I went to the newer USB setup, and the stick was as crisp and precise as the day I bought it, and I didn't spend dollar one on any "mods" :p Just bought the USB versions a couple of months ago, and I'm very please.
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Overall, I've loved the X45...it wont center for me, off by a smidgen, and I've pondered doing the spring mods at the base others have hinted at. If i let go of the stick in level flight, she tips to the left...
That and the button on the throttle I use for WEP requires a bit more mashing to kick in than the other buttons do.
But its been a good stick...no complaints other than what was mentioned above. And I've killed Sidewinders and other brands and much less time
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I've owned and sold a Cougar, even after investing the time to rewire a set of CH pedals so that the toe brakes would work when plugged into the Cougar's rudder port. Many people, including the guy who bought mine, love the Cougars. I do not.
I now own a CH USB set-up, which I rate as superior in every way, except that there is just no denying the coolness of the Cougar's heft and (almost) all-metal construction. (Some would say that the fact that it is an "authentic" F-16 stick is a plus, but I actually prefer the layout of my CH Pro Throttle. I don't miss Cougar's rotaries and I really like CH's additional hat switches.) For a long time, the CH sticks were limited by very sub-par programming capability, but with the recent release of Bob Church's excellent CH Control Manager 2.0, the CH sticks can do anything the Cougar can do and more. In my view, CM 2.0 is much more flexible, powerful, and intuitive than Cougar's programming environment.
Cougar may be worth buying just to set on your shelf, but using it to fly is another matter altogether. As several users have noted, precise control around the center is difficult, if not impossible, due to the unfortunate confluence of two factors: center play and extremely stiff springs with a very high "break" force. Indeed, so much force is needed to move the stick out of its center play area that it feels like it has a center detent. Obviously, once you've exerted that much force, it is hard to stop stick movement near center to make fine adjustments. (If you've ever driven a non-power steering U-Haul truck with out-of-alignment tires and a four-inch play in the steering system, you have some idea of what it's like trying to fly with the Cougar.)
Control of the CH Fighterstick, in contrast, is quite light and precise. I'm pretty sure the play in my CH stick is less than in my Cougars (I've had two), but, in any event, it is insignificant because there is not a huge "break" force like there is with the Cougar. To be honest, I find Cougar's control so bad that I prefer my three-year old Saitek HOTAS (which, by the way, has HUGE play in the center).
It may be that the various mods available turn the Cougar into the uber stick that I hoped it would be. If money is no object, they might be worth a look. In fact, the Cougar has so much potential that I would probably pay $1k for a Cougar that worked as I expected it to work.
- JNOV
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As for rudders I still don't think you can beat a set of TM RCS rudders. I have a 2nd hand pair I bought when I bought my F-16 FLCS/TQS combo 4+ years ago (which I sold to help fund the Cougar purchase). So these rudders are every bit of 8 years old and the pot is finally dying. So I am about to break down and rework them and make them into RCS w/ Toe Brakes and a new pot. But I am doing a home "poor man's 4 spring mod" to eliminate the flat areas around the travel of my stick. As I said I have gotten out the Mitotoyo calipers from work and still register <1.5mm of play in both the X and Y axis. That is a heck of a lot less than what I had in my F-16 FLCs and in the Saitek, Suncom and CH gear I have used in the past. I wish I still had that Suncom throttle I could make a killing selling it on eBay. :D
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Hey Reschke,
If you can hold off on your 4 spring mod for a week or so I'll have some info I think you'll like. Cheap and easy DIY mod undergoing some testing right now. Stay tuned to the CW forums next week.
Cheers,
Greg
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Cannot wait, Greg ;)
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Yes, I think I'm going to sell mine too. I might try CH stuff, but the dimensions of the stick are the same and one of the things I dislike about the Cougar is the stretch to reach HAT and gun buttons. The TopGun just fits so neatly in your hand, just move your thumb to the nice hat and gun buttons. No play whatsoever, HOTAS control for £25!
I also would like the whole lot to be seen as one controller as I have USB CH Pro pedals which are great.
This isn't a problem in AH, but it would be nice to fly Janes WWII fighters again.
I could do with a few more buttons than the Topgun Afterburner has got though.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
I'll stick with my full CH Pro setups. I had my gameport models for 4 years before I went to the newer USB setup, and the stick was as crisp and precise as the day I bought it, and I didn't spend dollar one on any "mods" :p Just bought the USB versions a couple of months ago, and I'm very please.
I'm still flying with the same CH Combatstick and CH rudder pedals I used when flying with Vermillion in the Skull Squadron in Air Warrior Classic, AW2, and AW3. Only replaced the Combatstick pots once; planning on buying a USB adaptor for it to bypass the spiking gameport on my new sound card next time I'm at Radio Shack or shopping on NewEgg.com.
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Originally posted by EvenStrain
Hey Reschke,
If you can hold off on your 4 spring mod for a week or so I'll have some info I think you'll like. Cheap and easy DIY mod undergoing some testing right now. Stay tuned to the CW forums next week.
Cheers,
Greg
Everstrain!
welcome to our board!
Hope you get a chance to try AH out once you have cleared your slate of orders.
Here is Everstrains contribution to the pursuit of Flight controler perfection guys..
(http://www.4anidea.com/evenstrain/sm7.jpg)
again..welcome everstrain!
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Thanks Pongo.
Actually the EvenStrain is looking a bit different these days. I'll be posting some pics as well as some hard numbers later this week. I'm also sending info and samples to Ian to try on the U2. It's an easy and inexpensive addition, one that I like alot.
Cheers,
Greg